Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 86
  1. #41
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    767
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    That is a pretty pointless commandment. "It is wrong to illegaly kill." WELL THATS WHY IT IS ILLEGAL IN THE FIRST PLACE!

    A useful commandment (but of course we cant expect this from the christian god) would tell us what type of killing should be made illegal.

  2. #42
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,388
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soren View Post
    That is a pretty pointless commandment. "It is wrong to illegaly kill." WELL THATS WHY IT IS ILLEGAL IN THE FIRST PLACE!

    A useful commandment (but of course we cant expect this from the christian god) would tell us what type of killing should be made illegal.
    The commandment extends further from the laws of man Soren. And the command, if you examine it more carefully, does tell us what type of killing is immoral: that of murder...which is intentional and premeditated w/o justification.

    There are various justifications, some of which are consequences due to crime, war, self-defense, etc...

    Also, there needed to be a differentiation between killing, manslaughter, and murder.

    Lastly, the commandments weren't just a "general guideline"..they served as law. So the breaking of these particular laws had particular punishments. The punishment for manslaughter for example was different than murder. These 10 were, at the time, the most important...for they were the foundation upon which the Law was to be built.

    You misunderstand the nature of the 10 Commandments it seems.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  3. #43
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    767
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    The commandment extends further from the laws of man Soren. And the command, if you examine it more carefully, does tell us what type of killing is immoral: that of murder...which is intentional
    Self defense is intentional
    and premeditated w/o justification.
    ...................... OBVIOUSLY if a killing is wrong it doesn't have justification. That is just restating the definition! (Very tautological of you)

    What counts as justification and what doesn't?
    (You get to this below)

    There are various justifications, some of which are consequences due to crime, war, self-defense, etc...
    But how do you differentiate between a "good" justification and a bad one? Can I justify killing my neighbor because,

    "I didn't like the way his hair looked."

    Also, there needed to be a differentiation between killing, manslaughter, and murder.
    How did this commandment differentiate between those?

    Lastly, the commandments weren't just a "general guideline"..they served as law.
    Uhmm, it is already against the law to murder.

    Definition of murder:

    Unlawful killing.

    So the commandment is saying:

    It is unlawful to unlawfully kill somebody...

    Great.

  4. #44
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,388
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soren View Post
    Self defense is intentional
    It isn't premeditated. See my previous post. This is already addressed.

    OBVIOUSLY if a killing is wrong it doesn't have justification. That is just restating the definition! (Very tautological of you)
    The Law had to begin somewhere. You say it is obvious now because of cultural evolution and the long standing recognition that certain types of killing is wrong. Were the 10 C's written in your lifetime...or perhaps thousands of years ago in a smaller community who had no formal Law or foundation? You are criticizing by not applying equitable terms (time, culture, etc...).

    But how do you differentiate between a "good" justification and a bad one? Can I justify killing my neighbor because,

    "I didn't like the way his hair looked."
    No. See next.

    How did this commandment differentiate between those?
    Well, if you scroll up a bit...you'll see the dialog between Kiv and I. There are different terms for the different types of killing. Not all types of killing are the same.

    Uhmm, it is already against the law to murder.
    Again, was the Decalogue written yesterday...or thousands of years ago? Did they serve the purpose of restating the Law or did they serve the purpose of starting the foundation by which the Law was to be built?
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  5. #45
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    767
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    It isn't premeditated. See my previous post. This is already addressed.
    So was the assassination of Osama bin Laden wrong? It was premeditated and intentional.

    And if you say it was justified I will redirect you to this question:
    How can we tell what is justified or not?
    The Law had to begin somewhere. You say it is obvious now because of cultural evolution and the long standing recognition that certain types of killing is wrong. Were the 10 C's written in your lifetime...or perhaps thousands of years ago in a smaller community who had no formal Law or foundation? You are criticizing by not applying equitable terms (time, culture, etc...).
    Newsflash:

    Law and culture existed before the 10 C's were written.

    No. See next.


    Well, if you scroll up a bit...you'll see the dialog between Kiv and I. There are different terms for the different types of killing. Not all types of killing are the same.
    Quote the relevant parts that you think answer:


    But how do you differentiate between a "good" justification and a bad one? Can I justify killing my neighbor because,

    and

    How did this commandment differentiate between those?

    "I didn't like the way his hair looked."

    Again, was the Decalogue written yesterday...or thousands of years ago? Did they serve the purpose of restating the Law or did they serve the purpose of starting the foundation by which the Law was to be built?
    Oh c'mon Apok, that's impossible. The word murder couldn't have existed if there wasn't a law against it already.

  6. #46
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,388
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    And in reference to your first post above: ..you do know that you have created a whopper of a strawman don't you Soren? No one argued it is immoral because it is illegal...or it is wrong because it is illegal. That's an argument YOU made up and argued against. You are arguing with yourself on that point it seems.

    ---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Soren View Post
    So was the assassination of Osama bin Laden wrong? It was premeditated and intentional.
    Some would say it is, others say it is an act of war. I don't know where I stand on the issue.

    Law and culture existed before the 10 C's were written.
    Of course.

    Quote the relevant parts that you think answer:


    But how do you differentiate between a "good" justification and a bad one? Can I justify killing my neighbor because,

    and

    How did this commandment differentiate between those?

    "I didn't like the way his hair looked."
    Well now I think you are going wayy off-topic talking about the nature of morality itself and how the human mind can determine a moral value.

    Oh c'mon Apok, that's impossible. The word murder couldn't have existed if there wasn't a law against it already.
    Really? What is that word specifically Soren? And which culture are you referring to? What specific law are you referring to? What word has both the meaning of to "kill with intention, premeditation and against the law"? Please support your arguments.

    ---------- Post added at 02:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 PM ----------

    Lastly, can you please tell us why you disagree that having "murder" on the "books" in today's society, is objectionable to you? If you don't find it objectionable...why is it ok for modern societies to outlaw it...but not ancient societies? If you agree with me that ancient societies should declare that intentional, premeditated killing that meet certain criteria be illegal or immoral...then what is your objection really?
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  7. #47
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NY, NY
    Posts
    670
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soren View Post
    That is a pretty pointless commandment. "It is wrong to illegaly kill." WELL THATS WHY IT IS ILLEGAL IN THE FIRST PLACE!

    A useful commandment (but of course we cant expect this from the christian god) would tell us what type of killing should be made illegal.
    Note - "murder" in the biblical sense did not mean "illegally kill" (without further explanation) any more than it does in various statutes in America. The specific definition of what was prohibited is spelled out elsewhere (oral law/other cites in the Torah, particularly in the discussion of negligent homicide).

    ---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 PM ----------

    Also, it's worth pointing out that what is colloquially referred to as the "Ten Commandments" are not, in fact, 10 commandments. The first, for example, "I am the lord your god who took you out of egypt . . .," is a statement of fact, not a commandment to do or refrain from doing anything. They are also not referred to in Hebrew as ten "commandments". They are the Aseret HaDibrot - Ten Utterances.
    Ah, well - apparently my kids were too distracting to stay as a sig. I take that as a compliment

  8. #48
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,388
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kivam View Post
    The first, for example, "I am the lord your god who took you out of egypt . . .," is a statement of fact, not a commandment to do or refrain from doing anything. They are also not referred to in Hebrew as ten "commandments". They are the Aseret HaDibrot - Ten Utterances.
    That is not complete however. The full text is "2. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3 you shall have no other gods before me."

    I also disagree that they are not commandments. God is instructing His people to follow these imperatives which serve as categories for subsequent commandments. They are the foundation if you will.

    It's like telling a child "Keep your room clean" then the child responding "You didn't tell me to clean my room".

    While the Ten Commandments are indeed categories of commandments (which total around 613 mitzvot or so?), they may still be accurately referred to as The Ten Commandments.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  9. #49
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    16
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    (biblically) to murder is an act by man, to kill is an act by god - therefore in Christianity only murder is condemned

  10. #50
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Well haven't read the whole thread, but I will say this murder vs kill seems like just another way for people to justify what they want to believe, and make the bible say whatever fits their view of the world.

    If the King James Bible is mistranslated then God did not preserve his word. So we are left with chaos, and that is what we have. Endless demonimations with people essentially making it us as they go along then looking later for the justifications.

    Also, legal vs illegal killing? What would man made laws have to do with when something is a sin?

  11. #51
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,234
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Not killing is a crystal clear notion, but its also pretty darn clear that is not the full intent of the commandment.

    I agree with the criticism that the commandment is not very useful by itself if you simply say that you cannot unlawfully kill someone (murder). That leaves the door wide open for a whole range of trumped up justifications for killing people and saying it is not murder. I think anyone can see that.

    There is a certain amount of reasonable agreement that people can find on murder. Killing people to take their gold has never to my knowledge been justified by any society (at least not among its own members, killing other societies people for their gold is something of a time honored tradition). So even as a vague commandment it has some value, but there is a canyon of wiggle room.

    Now the rest of the bible can provide some clarification, but even there there are many different messages about when killing is justified and when its not. I don't find it nearly as helpful as my own conscience or discussions with my fellow human beings.

    Finally, while I may critique, I cant say secular humanism has a better commandment. In the end I would also say thou shalt not murder. I think there is time in life when you to kill another human can be justified even if it is never desirable. And I don't have a clear and sharp truth for when it is murder or not. Life forces you to work it out and make the call in the face of constant uncertainty. Still, its always worth trying to do the best you can and to error on the side of life is I think the more admirable choice.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  12. #52
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,388
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I agree with the criticism that the commandment is not very useful by itself if you simply say that you cannot unlawfully kill someone (murder). That leaves the door wide open for a whole range of trumped up justifications for killing people and saying it is not murder. I think anyone can see that.
    This is a gross misunderstanding of the law then. There were specific legal restrictions in the way that one could or could not be killed. It isn't the case that someone could just arbitrarily and whimsically say "Naw...don't worry brosoph, that was justified therefore not murder" (like you are making it sound). And it wasn't up to the individual to decide but rather the court who was interpreting and enforcing the law.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; June 15th, 2012 at 09:44 AM.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  13. #53
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    976
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    This is a gross misunderstanding of the law then. There were specific legal restrictions in the way that one could or could not be killed. It isn't the case that someone could just arbitrarily and whimsically say "Naw...don't worry brosoph, that was justified therefore not murder" (like you are making it sound). And it wasn't up to the individual to decide but rather the court who was interpreting and enforcing the law.
    The larger point is that if bibles say different things the claim that God preserves his word is false so then the God Abraham is false. As a prophet must be 100% accurate.

    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

  14. #54
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NY, NY
    Posts
    670
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Not killing is a crystal clear notion, but its also pretty darn clear that is not the full intent of the commandment.

    I agree with the criticism that the commandment is not very useful by itself if you simply say that you cannot unlawfully kill someone (murder). That leaves the door wide open for a whole range of trumped up justifications for killing people and saying it is not murder. I think anyone can see that.
    Sure. Which is merely another piece of evidence supporting Judaism's assertion that the bible was accompanied by interpretive guidance in the form of the oral law

    ---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    The larger point is that if bibles say different things the claim that God preserves his word is false so then the God Abraham is false. As a prophet must be 100% accurate.

    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
    Kevin, if you can't see on your own why that argument holds no water, I'm begging you to take a logic course
    Last edited by Kivam; June 15th, 2012 at 07:24 AM.
    Ah, well - apparently my kids were too distracting to stay as a sig. I take that as a compliment

  15. #55
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kivam View Post
    Sure. Which is merely another piece of evidence supporting Judaism's assertion that the bible was accompanied by interpretive guidance in tyre form of the oral law

    ---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------



    Kevin, if you can't see on your own why that argument holds no water, I'm begging you to take a logic course
    Well why not explain it? The bible says that it will be preserved by the all powerful God. The bible says one way to tell what is from God is aways 100% accurate. The KJV is obviously not accurate so I have narrowed the truth down to exclude the KJV. Now that doesn't prove all others are also false, but it leads me to believe there is a high chance.

  16. #56
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NY, NY
    Posts
    670
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Well why not explain it? The bible says that it will be preserved by the all powerful God. The bible says one way to tell what is from God is aways 100% accurate. The KJV is obviously not accurate so I have narrowed the truth down to exclude the KJV. Now that doesn't prove all others are also false, but it leads me to believe there is a high chance.
    Yes, the King James is quite inaccurate as a translation of the "OT" (what I think of other christian translations is not a subject for this thread). To leap from that to "therefore, Abrahamic religions are false" . . . well, there's no rational basis or support for that claim.

    Anyway, this, too, is a topic for another thread. Feel free to open one, but I think you've diverted this thread enough.
    Ah, well - apparently my kids were too distracting to stay as a sig. I take that as a compliment

  17. #57
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kivam View Post
    Yes, the King James is quite inaccurate as a translation of the "OT" (what I think of other christian translations is not a subject for this thread). To leap from that to "therefore, Abrahamic religions are false" . . . well, there's no rational basis or support for that claim.

    Anyway, this, too, is a topic for another thread. Feel free to open one, but I think you've diverted this thread enough.
    I understand what you are saying, but all these issues are very much interrelated on the issue of is any religion true.

  18. #58
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,571
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    I understand what you are saying, but all these issues are very much interrelated on the issue of is any religion true.
    They are, but you have to reel it in a little, amigo. Otherwise pretty much any topic can stray off into Lala-land.

    I mean, I could start a thread about whether or not Bush lied about WMDs, and using the principle of "much interrelated on the issue of is any "X" true", anyone could come in all Cartesian and start asking how we can truly know anything at all. How we can come to know things in general IS "interrelated" to how we know people are lying, after all. But that's a little too far from the more provincial subject at hand.

  19. Thanks Kivam thanked for this post
  20. #59
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,234
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    There were specific legal restrictions in the way that one could or could not be killed. It isn't the case that someone could just arbitrarily and whimsically say "Naw...don't worry brosoph, that was justified therefore not murder" (like you are making it sound). And it wasn't up to the individual to decide but rather the court who was interpreting and enforcing the law.
    Those restrictions were not from God however. Those who follow the bible have held to wildly different standards over the centuries showing de facto that it is not strong guidance on the matter. The specific laws have always been and will always be secular creations by and large. Even when they are interpreted from indirect scripture. Even the explicit laws printed in the bible most Christians simply ignore based on an implicit statement in the new testament. Men have argued for centuries about the meaning of the commandment, and that more than anything shows its lack of clarity.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  21. #60
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    They are, but you have to reel it in a little, amigo. Otherwise pretty much any topic can stray off into Lala-land.

    I mean, I could start a thread about whether or not Bush lied about WMDs, and using the principle of "much interrelated on the issue of is any "X" true", anyone could come in all Cartesian and start asking how we can truly know anything at all. How we can come to know things in general IS "interrelated" to how we know people are lying, after all. But that's a little too far from the more provincial subject at hand.
    Yes things stray, but that is primarily because While there may be 2 billion people who claim the Title Christian they don't read the same book or believe the same things. Whether its wrong to kill or murder is but one example. So how can one debate with a system which can believe essentially anything it chooses? Was Mary a Virgin? Depends on your bible. Is it ok to kill sometimes. Depends on your bible. Seems like the nature of God get retconed as much as the nature of superman in DC commics.


    Often when one says so and so can't be a Christian because they don't believe X someone chimes in and says that is the no true Scottsman fallacy. Well I counter a guy born and who never left Mexico can't be a Scottsman so it can't be a fallacy always.
    Last edited by kevin; June 15th, 2012 at 09:15 AM.

 

 
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •