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Thread: Is there a rational reason to believe?

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    Is there a rational reason to believe?

    In this thread I want to discuss a number of common reasons why people claim to believe in God. I intend to discuss them in the context of a person becoming a theist. I will claim that the default position is that of an atheist and that there must be a reason to start believing in the first place. I will then attempt to show that none of the reasons I list are rational. This is not to say that no other reasons to turn to God exist. I can’t claim to be exhaustive and I’m sure our theist friends will point to any such shortcomings in this OP.

    Please note that I do not intend to offend anyone. I have much respect for all ODNers; theists and atheists alike. This is not to be taken as a personal attack; it’s an intellectual exercise only.

    The meaning of theism for this argument

    Clearly, if I am going to discuss theism, I need to first ascertain what it is that I mean by that concept.

    In this thread, when I refer to “theism” I refer to a belief in a God or gods. By this I mean sentient and supernatural entities who are, to some extent, omnipotent. This doesn’t have to mean that they are absolutely omnipotent. It just means that they are very, very powerful. I also want to limit this to a belief in a God who has created the universe and humans. The latter need not be direct creation. Thus, if one believes in a God who created the “singularity” and all the laws of nature that govern the singularity and the matter and energy that arises out of it, he is not precluded from being classified as a theist for the purposes of this discussion. However, the being has to be sentient. So, for example, when discussing a cosmological aspect, positing that something out there must have “pushed” the singularity to explode, will not be considered a theist belief. Not unless that “something” is believed to be sentient in the sense that it has self awareness and the awareness of other things and that it has will and can make decisions and act upon those decisions.

    An “atheist”, by contrast, is somebody who’s not a theist. Broadly speaking, this may mean many different things. For example, one can be an atheist in one God but a theist in another. But for our purposes, and to keep things simple, an atheist is anyone who doesn’t believe in the entity or class of entities that I have described in the foregoing paragraph. When I say “doesn’t believe” I am simply referring to a lack of belief. It doesn’t have to go all the way to “strong atheism” (ie, a belief that no such entity exists). It’s enough that a person has no belief in such an entity.

    Lack of theism is the default position

    I believe that lack of theism is the default position. When people are born, they do not have any belief in God. They have no knowledge of the concept of God, nor do they have the mental ability to obtain such knowledge such early a stage of mental development.

    One might argue that a newborn can’t be an atheist precisely because he doesn’t have any ability to either have faith or not. Thus, a newborn is neither a theist nor an atheist; he is simply a-philosophical (for want of a better term). To avoid going on a lengthy tangent on that detail, I am happy with that position. Thus, for those who would feel inclined to embark on this line of argument, “atheism” can be redefined to state that “a person is an atheist if he is capable of understanding the meaning of belief in a God or gods and lacks a belief in a God or gods.” This would mean that a newborn is not an atheist but at some stage during development a child becomes one as he becomes capable of understanding the meaning of belief in a God or gods.

    What follows from the above is that, while the default position (that is, the position at birth) is not necessarily atheistic, it certainly can’t be theistic. A newborn is either an atheist or “non-philosophical”. In either of those cases, the newborn is not a theist.

    Since the default position is that of not being a theist, becoming a theist is a positive step. When I say “positive” I don’t mean it in the sense of “good step”. I simply mean that it is some occurrence or some action or some change of state that has to take place in order for the person to become a theist; if nothing at all happens, the person will remain an atheist. I use the term “atheist” at this point because the person I am discussing is necessarily at the stage of development where he is capable of becoming a theist and must therefore be capable of understanding the meaning of belief. This, in turn means, that he is no longer “non-philosophical” but is now an atheist (in the weak sense).

    The question for this thread is this: what reason can there be for a person to change their position from atheist to theist? Would such a change be rational? I will attempt to show that it would not be.

    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

    I feel compelled to make a short statement about the above principle. Since absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, the fact that there is no rational ground for believing in God (if there isn’t one) is not in itself enough to conclude that God doesn’t exist. However, I am not setting out to show that God doesn’t exist. My attempt is focused only on showing that there is no rational reason for believing in God. If we accept my proposition above that the default position is necessarily an atheist one, it should be clear that in order to become a theist, one needs to change the status quo. This requires a POSITIVE ACT. And a positive act without a rational reason is an unnecessary positive act. Changing the status quo without a rational reason would be changing it just for the “hell of it” (no pun). And of course, I can’t dispute anyone who claims that he has become a theist simply for the hell of it. However, I would think that many a theist would get greatly offended if I were to suggest to them that they became theists for such a silly reason.

    Scope of the problem

    In order to address the question, I intend to look at a number of possible reasons a person might have to change from being an atheist to being a theist. Of course, I can’t be sure that the list is exhaustive and I am likely to leave some things out. Broadly speaking, however, the following categories of reasons exist:

    1. “Knowledge”. This category consists of empirical observations of God or of God’s actions (such as Biblical and other scriptural accounts), and personal revelations. However, this category also extends to some logical a priori “proofs” for the existence of God. These are teleological proofs, ontological proofs and cosmological proofs. Thus, a person could become a theist in an intellectual sense; believing that convincing evidence and/or argument exists for God’s existence.
    2. Considerations of “purpose”. This is not as clear a category as “knowledge”. Reasoning that falls within this category involves questions of evil and moral right, of justice and of eternal life. People who believe that “there must be a better place than this; one where evil never wins” or that “it would make no sense for us just to die and to be no more; hence there must be an eternal life of some sort” fall within this category. This category, thus, is more focused on some sort of wishful thinking rather than on any objective analysis of available evidence of any kind.
    3. Pascal’s Wager. Surprising as this might be, there are actually theists who claim that they have chosen to believe in God because they would rather be wrong if God doesn’t exist than they would be wrong if God does exist. Risking going to hell is a much higher price than living one’s life following the doctrines of a God who doesn’t exist. They have nothing to lose by doing the latter but potentially a lot to lose by doing the former.
    4. Cultural reasons, tradition, upbringing etc. Many people believe in God because they have been brought up that way. Their culture and tradition is a theistic one and they simply assimilate with this culture as they grow up. They are taught by their parents that there is a God who loves them every much.

    Combination of reasons

    Naturally, it’s not possible (nor would it make any sense at all) to claim that every person who becomes a theist does so due to any one of the above reasons in isolation. Rather, this may be (and probably often is) a combination of some of the above and possibly of some others that I haven’t even addressed. Let us consider whether this affects my position in terms of rationality.

    Firstly, let us assume that a particular reason is rational. I will not nominate that reason but we will just call it “R”. So, R is a rational reason to become a theist in the sense that R is a conclusion based on rational and solid evidence of God’s existence and/or of the viability of engaging in the practice of some particular faith. If R is a good and rational reason to become a theist then it doesn’t matter whether any of the remaining reasons are rational. It’s enough to simply rely on R. If all the other reasons to become a theist are not rational, it would make little sense to combine R with those reasons. R is sufficient to stand as a good and solid reason to change from an atheist to a theist.

    If, on the other hand, no rational reason exists, does it make any sense to combine any number of irrational reasons and then to rely on them and become a theist? I assert it does not. The fact that you have a number of irrational reasons doesn’t make any of them more rational unless a special case can be established such that a particular irrational reason becomes rational by the fact that another irrational reason exists which on its own merits makes the former rational. But if that were the case then the former reason could be stated as a rational reason in the first place by simply including in itself whatever element it is of the latter that makes it rational. None of the reasons I have outlined above (and will address below) are, as far as I can see, capable of becoming any more rational than they are, simply by combining them with any other of the above reasons.

    For example, if the Bible can’t be relied on (category 1) for factual assertions about God and if the cosmological argument (category 2) is not logically sound, the facts that we have the Bible and that we have the cosmological argument do not in combination make either the Bible’s accuracy any better nor do they make the cosmological argument any more logically sound. If all our relatives believe in God this doesn’t mean we should (without some other reason). The fact that we have the Bible doesn’t give us that reason if the Bible can’t be relied on for factual assertions. And vice-versa, the fact that our relatives believe in God does not make the Bible any more reliable in terms of factual assertions.

    I would conclude that, unless a specific case can be made out, a combination of irrational factors which do not affect each other’s rationality in some specific way that can be shown, does not of itself make any of them more rational.

    And if that is the case, then showing that each of the above factors is irrational in itself is sufficient to dismiss it from our list of reasons to believe in God.

    I will now address the reasons for becoming a theist (as I see them).



    Knowledge

    Scriptural and other accounts.

    There are a large number of religions with their scriptural accounts of what God is, what God’s commandments are, how we are supposed to behave, what the rewards and punishments for certain types of behaviours are. There are as many of these accounts as there are religions. Not all of these accounts are written. Some do not show on any permanent record at all but rather are passed on from one generation of believers to the next. Apart from being vastly different between the various religions of the world, these accounts are open to a plaethora of different interpretations in themselves. Many believers claim that these messages should be taken literally. Others claim that they are symbolic in nature. Yet others claim that they are partially literal and partially symbolic.

    Since there are a large number of proposed religions, there is absolutely no reason why one should be preferred to another. In other words, it’s not possible to know at all that one religion’s message is more accurate than that of another or which religion it is that holds the more accurate message. In absence of independent evidence by which to assess the truth of any of these claims, there is no rational reason to choose one over another.

    Thus, we can’t know if it’s more likely that the sun, moon and stars were vomited into existence by a white giant called Mbombo (this sound like an FSM-like claim but is actually an African religious belief – Bakuba People) or whether the world is a vast ocean on the backbone of an enormous trout created by Kamaiu (Ainu beliefs in Asia) or whether the Universe has always existed and always will exist (Jainism), or whether God created the world and humans in 6 days and rested on the 7th (Judaist/Christian Biblical belief in its literal sense).

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    These accounts are hugely inconsistent with each other. Similarly, the accounts of what God (or gods) is (or are) are inconsistent between the various religions. Ancient Greek gods were capable of hurting and punishing each other and all had their own motivations and their virtues and vices individually. Australian Aboriginal deities were animal-like in nature and much supernatural happened during “Dreamtime”. There are those who believe that God is an alien from outer space. It is beyond any question that there are huge numbers of mutually inconsistent beliefs in a huge numbers of various gods whose nature and attributes differ from all others in many different ways.

    These gods have little in common safe and except the fact that it is more often than not believed that they are responsible for our existence. This is hardly surprising, given that humans have a natural curiosity when it comes to this very question: where did we come from? The question is so common to our nature that it is even asked by very young children. Thus, if we were to say that people in ancient times sought an explanation for that great question of existence and filled the gap with an invented God (who would usually be either human-like or animal-like), would that be surprising at all?

    At this point, we have an unquestionable fact that can be broken down as follows:

    1. Accounts of God and gods and their nature and attributes vary irreconcilably between the various religions of the world; both past and present;
    2. There exists no independent yardstick to determine the veracity of one account against that of any other account;
    3. Therefore some of those accounts must be incorrect and we can’t know which ones (if any) are correct.

    The only conclusion from the above that I can think of is that we can’t know what accounts to rely on. Does that mean that we should dismiss all of them as untrue? Yes. We simply can’t accept any single one of them as true. Starting from the default position of atheism, we cannot, with a straight face, accept any single account to the exclusion of all others. In the absence of any independent criteria for veracity, it would be irrational to choose one at random.

    The other point to make at this time is that these accounts are in many aspects contradictory to what we know about the world around us, having learned about it through observation and logical interpretations of that observation: science. When faced with the choice of accepting any one of the many contradicting accounts and at the same time rejecting science and reason and the alternative choice of rejecting all of those accounts and accepting science and reason, I submit that the latter is the more rational choice.

    Let me give you a hypothetical example:

    Hearsay reports exist that a train crash occurred at a particular level-crossing. Here are some accounts from various sources:

    1. Mum told me she saw two trains in a head-on collision.
    2. Jenny told me that she saw a train derail itself while negotiating the bend.
    3. Mark said his brother saw a train collide with a semi-trailer.
    4. Allison said she saw a jumbo jet fall on a train.

    Upon investigation, we find that there was a train that broke down at the level crossing. Investigators are not sure yet what caused the breakdown.

    We can treat the train as the beginning of the universe. If we do, science agrees that the question is worthy of investigation. Anything else is a speculation. Choosing the 7 day theory over Mbombo vomiting is irrational. Each is based on a set of beliefs that was once or is held by some theists. All we know is that the universe as we know it has had a beginning (well, it might not, but let’s just assume that for the sake of argument).

    We may well find that some of these various religious beliefs have some things in common. For example, you will find that the Judaist/Christian God is somewhat similar to the God of the Koran. Can this be explained by the simple fact that both are traced to the same region? Is it any surprise that they are so similar to each other? After all, they represent the values and beliefs of cultures that are very close in geographic proximity. By contrast, American Indian beliefs (or those of ancient Europeans) are markedly different. Is this not an indication of some anthropological and societal/cultural source of belief (as opposed to divine)?

    In conclusion, since there are so many accounts of who God is and what His nature and attributes are and how He created the world and whether or not He created the world in the first place, there is no rational justification for choosing any account over any other. And since the majority of them must be false (even if one does happen to be true) and we can’t determine which ones are or are not false, the only rational course is to reject them all (at least the ones that in any way contradict scientific observation and the logical conclusions thereof) until and unless corroboratory evidence becomes available.

    Logical arguments for God

    There are many versions of these arguments and I don’t seek to address them all. I propose to deal with them in a very short-handed fashion and present that each of the broad category of argument that I address contains a fatal logical error.


    Design arguments

    Arguments that fall within this category are arguments that rely on the very organised nature of the world around us, of life itself and of the human body and its functions. It is claimed that things couldn’t fall into place so well unless there was an intelligent designer behind their creation.

    The first question to ask is: are things really so well organised? I assert that they’re not. The universe is a very random place with huge numbers of bodies and galaxies and clusters of galaxies, all expanding as a result of what scientists call The Big Bang. Stars and galaxies collide, they die, the get attracted to the gravity of other objects and form new bodies or groups of bodies. Of course, from our human perspective, given that we have been around but for a fraction of a second in universal terms, the universe seems very organised. It would certainly look that way to the ancient inhabitants of this planet. They didn’t have the science and the technology to see the chaos that reigns in the universe when considered at the grand scale.

    We have strong evidence that the Earth was one day filled with dinosaurs. They roamed the planet for millions of years. And yet, in a relatively short time they became extinct. Some scientists believe this resulted from an asteroid hit. Others blame it on a volcanic eruption. Yet others claim that it was a combination of the two. Whatever the truth of the matter, each is a viable and natural explanation. My question is: what is so organised about a universe where an entire class of species gets wiped out by a single cosmic (or volcanic) event? One might think this event was chaotic; not to say random.

    The argument from design has had its heyday. Most scientists (by far) today accept the theory of natural selection as true. The theory holds water because it explains the evolution of life as a natural process. Living things adapt to their environment by way of random mutations. We see these mutations every day. We see kids born with 6 fingers or animals born with two tails. We see insects with unusual (for their species) colours. It’s completely logical to say that a creature that is better adapted to survive is more likely to leave offspring. It’s equally logical to say that the offspring is likely to inherit the parent’s traits. We all know this. Heredity has been known to humans since ancient times. Today, scientists explain it in terms of genetics and DNA. So, if animals that are better adapted to survive are more likely to leave behind offspring, they are more likely to pass on those better-adapted traits. Over time, this results in a changing population. Sometimes, the original population dies out and only those with the new traits remain. At other times, both populations survive and simply branch off in different directions. But we know that creatures change. We have the fossil record. Scientists use that fossil record to look at how creatures have evolved over time. It all makes perfect sense. Sure, there are many details that still need explanation. There always will be. Humans strive for knowledge and the more we know the more we learn about how much more there is to learn. But the point here is that evolution in terms of natural selection makes perfect sense.

    I have outlined some very common scientific views just to show that there are perfectly natural explanations for the way the world is “organised”. I am not trying to prove that they are true. I don’t need to prove that. Why? Because we are looking for a positive reason for a default atheist to change the status quo and become a theist. So, in order to make a rational and informed choice to take this step based on arguments from design, the person would have to be aware of the scientific explanations and reject them in favour of the competing theory. But let’s look at what that entails.

    1. The argument from design starts from the premiss that things are too complicated to have arisen without an intelligent designer.
    2. But in order to overcome the hurdle in (1), the argument posits the pre-existence of a being even more complex and organised than the universe itself is; a being so complex and so organised that it was capable of creating the universe and all the complex things within it.

    The contradiction is a glaring one.

    Some apologists will contend that the being in question is God and that ONLY GOD is capable of being so organised and so complex and of always having existed. In my submission that is circular reasoning. It assumes that God does have certain properties in the first place and that nothing else could have some of those properties. The apologist is further likely to resort to God’s unknowable nature. We can’t comprehend God and therefore we can’t be critical of the propositions put by arguments from design. But the fact of the matter is that we don’t fully understand the beginning of the universe either. If we did, there would be no argument from design in the first place. Once we get our heads around this proposition, the argument from design becomes a species of an argument from ignorance.

    Since we don’t understand the beginning of the universe, we can’t claim that the universe was governed by the same laws then as it is now. In fact, many scientists believe that it wasn’t. The nature of the universe during the Planck Epoch was markedly different to what it is now. For example, it is suggested that all forces were unified at that stage.
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    To conclude this section, arguments from design contradict much of the scientific knowledge that we have today. In addition, they rely on circular logic by positing the pre-existence of something even more complex in order to explain the existence of something less complex which, they claim, couldn’t exist except for the existence and interference of the more complex being.

    Therefore, for an atheist to rely on arguments from design in the big step of becoming a theist, he would have to reject the majority of the body of science and to accept a circular argument. I submit that this is not a rational course to take.

    Ontological arguments

    The typical ontological argument relies on the description of God as a perfect being. Since God is perfect as a concept, God must exist in reality because if He didn’t, He’d be less perfect than one who does and therefore wouldn’t be perfect (because existence is a necessary part of perfection).

    It has been said that this argument is abhorred by most but loved by some (see the Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy for one).

    Regardless of how many people love or hate the argument, it doesn’t flow logically. It simply doesn’t justify the leap between God as a concept and God as a reality.

    Quite simply, if God doesn’t exist in reality then God as a perfect concept is just that; a perfect concept. Even if this does make God less perfect than He would be if He did in fact exist, then so be it; this has no bearing on the question. You can’t bring a non-existent thing into existence simply by defining its concept in such a way that would “necessitate” its existence. It’s impossible. Things either exist in reality or they don’t. Their existence doesn’t depend on how we imagine them.

    One could be excused in thinking that the ontological argument is just a light-hearted exercise to prove something that is unprovable.

    Since the argument is illogical in that it seeks to bring about the existence of something merely based on its definitional attributes, it is not a rational reason for an atheist to become a theist.

    Cosmological argument

    This argument seeks to prove God’s existence on the basis that everything that is physical has to have a cause. That being the case, the universe has to have a cause. That cause must be God.

    There are several problems with this argument.

    Firstly, the very assumption that everything has to have a cause relies on our empirical experience of things around us. We are very much accustomed to things not happening without a cause and it seems unnatural for us to accept that they could. But God is unnatural (He’s supernatural). Therefore, by accepting that God might exist, we accept that things can exist such that they don’t have to have a cause. Why then do we claim that the universe needs one? Is the universe as a whole in any way subject to any principles that we derive from empirical experience? Some might argue that it’s not. Empirical experience is relevant to things that are not unique. There is only one universe that we know of and we haven’t had an opportunity to obtain any empirical experience at all about how universes (as a whole) behave. We simply don’t know if they need causes in order to exist. The assumption that the universe has to have a cause is not based on any verifiable scientific data or observation.

    The apologist might now claim that everything that is PHYSICAL has a cause and the universe is PHYSICAL and therefore it also must have a cause. Again, my response is the same, but with a slight addition. We can’t say that everything that’s physical has a cause because we haven’t been able to test everything that’s physical (or every CLASS of physical things) for its requirement to have a cause. One thing we haven’t been able to test for it is a universe. There’s only one of those that we know of and there’s nothing to suggest that the universe must have a cause.

    The second problem is that there is an assumption in the cosmological argument that the universe can’t always have existed. The term “always” only makes sense when TIME is part of the equation. But TIME is a factor of matter and space. Let’s think about this for a second. Just what is time? How do we know of time and how do we measure it? Our units of time are based on the time it takes Earth to make one full revolution around its own axis. We call that one day. Then we arbitrarily divide that by 24 and we get one hour. We arbitrarily divide that by 60 and get one minute. And then we measure time by using clocks of all sorts. They depend on the properties of matter. The matter around us acts subject to some laws of physics and they seem to be fairly uniform. So, a crystal might vibrate at regular intervals and we can use that to measure time. Or a spring or pendulum will move at regular intervals and we can also adopt that to give us some idea of what time it “is”. But without all that matter around us, without the sun and the quartz and any matter at all, would there be time? If there was no universe at all, no matter, no energy, would time exist? Since time is a function of space, there is good reason to believe that there was no time before there was space. Hence, there was never a time when there was no universe. The universe has always existed. There are competing theories on this. Some scientists believe that time existed before the universe; that there was another “timeframe”. Of course, this is just speculation. It’s very probable (and many believe this to be a fact) that we will never be able to know about the universe prior to the Planck Epoch. Time may have existed or it may have not. There may have been another form of a universe or there may have not. Some believe that the universe has been expanding and contracting and then expanding again (a potentially backwardly-infinite series of Big Bangs and Big Crunches).

    What does all that mean? It means that we don’t know if there ever was a time before the universe and, even if there was, we don’t know what was there before the universe. We don’t know what laws of nature existed and what caused the universe to change. Does the fact that we don’t know in any way lend itself to the existence of an omnipotent and sentient being? It does not. It could lend itself to any number of things that we simply don’t understand. It’s ok to speculate about them and to say that X Y or Z are possibilities. It’s ok to say that God was a possibility. But it wouldn’t be rational to take just one of those possibilities and claim it to be an absolute truth. To put a sentient and omnipotent God behind our lack of knowledge of the early universe and to leave it at that is nothing short of appealing to ignorance.

    In conclusion, using a cosmological argument to change from an atheist to a theist is not rational. It involves a huge leap from not knowing how the universe originated to assuming that there was a sentient and omnipotent being who made it happen. It also relies on an assumption that the universe had to be cause; an assumption that has no support for it given that we can’t know about the properties of the universe in its earliest moments. It also assumes that time was as it is now, which in itself is a huge leap. Reducing all this to a sentient and omnipotent God is a gigantic appeal to ignorance.

    Personal Experience and Revelations

    We hear quite a lot about theists who claim that they have had personal experience with their chosen God and that God has revealed Himself in some way or another to them. How rational are those claims?

    Certainly, if God comes down from the sky and performs a couple of miracles and you are able to verify that they did take place (to exclude yourself hallucinating) and then tells you “I am God, you must believe”, there is little I could argue against in terms of rationality of the claim.

    But these are not the type of revelations we hear of. In fact, it’s rare that we hear of someone who was an atheist and God revealed Himself to them and they then started to believe. Rather, what we hear is believers telling us their testimony about how God works wonders in their lives. Obviously, this scenario isn’t a reason to become a theist. The persons in this scenario are theists already. A theist doesn’t need a reason to become a theist; he CAN’T become a theist for he already is one.

    But even those accounts, the accounts given to us by people who are already theists, are dubious insofar as their ability to amount to any reason to believe in God is concerned. Firstly, these revelations are common throughout all the various religions of the world. They have been known in reference to polytheistic beliefs as well as monotheistic beliefs. They have happened to Hinduists and to Judaists and to Christians and to American Indians. Would that mean that it’s rational to accept that all those Gods are true? They vary in their attributes, descriptions and abilities and in their wishes as to what they want us, humans, to do if we are to reach whatever heavenly reward they have in store.

    But secondly, how miraculous are these revelations in the first place? If they consist of “I prayed and God fulfilled my prayer” then one might say that they aren’t all that supernatural after all. How many times did you pray and God didn’t fulfil your prayer? Probably many. On those occasions, you might say “obviously it wasn’t God’s will that what I prayed for should happen”. But doesn’t that just equate to saying that what God wants will happen in the first place? And if so, the significance of prayer vanishes. We just end up with “something unusual happened”. This might mean that someone who was terminally ill came back to health. They had a 1% chance of survival and they survived. Well, that means that they were that “1 in 100” who does that. They didn’t even beat the odds. They just fit within the odds.

    I have never heard of a theist claim of “personal revelation” that was anything more than a completely natural, even if in itself unlikely, event. That doesn’t mean that none exist. And if they do, I have no doubt that someone will point them out to me here.

    Insofar as any personal revelations that are not in themselves supernatural (such as God coming down from Heaven or a laptop levitating and saying “repent”), they are not a rational reason to become a theist. They simply reflect things that are perfectly natural, even if rare. Rare things happen. They just happen rarely.





    Considerations of “Purpose”

    There are those among us who base their belief in God simply on the statement “there must be more to existence than just this”, “evil can’t prevail and it clearly often does on Earth”, “I just can’t believe that we just die and we exist no more” and other such propositions.

    To summarise all these in two short words: “wishful thinking”.

    Of course it would be nice if we could all live forever. It’s only natural to want to. Not many really want to die and exist no more. To go further, we find it unimaginable that we could actually die and exist no more. This is perfectly natural. We simply can’t imagine not existing. That’s because everything we know of, all our experience and knowledge and perception comes from our own existence. But whether or not we can imagine not existing has absolutely no bearing on the truth of the matter, whatever that truth might be. We can wish all we like for an everlasting life. But either there is such a thing or there isn’t. Wanting something really bad (if we don’t have the power to make it true) just isn’t enough for it to be true.

    Does there have to be a world where evil never prevails? No. There doesn’t. It would be nice if there were. We could all get rewarded for acting morally here on Earth. It would be perfect. It would give us a divine incentive to adhere to some principles. But unfortunately that’s not enough to make it true. The question of what “evil” is in the first place is a long and wide one. If we look at the universe as a whole and at ourselves as just parts of the universe, there really is no such thing as “evil”. We do things that we do because we can’t do anything other to what we do. This, of course represents a “deterministic” view of the reality. Anything that we do to ourselves or to others is just the universe doing things to itself. There’s no evil in this. Evil is a concept that humans have invented as a factor of their social interactions. The concept is related to morality. And we all know that morality isn’t a universal thing; let alone divine. There are different concepts of what is moral and what is not in different cultures. Some cultures mandate the circumcision of young girls. Others allow (or have allowed) the killing and eating of another human being. There have been cultures where it was acceptable to kill a deformed baby. Is the Western culture morally superior? We’d like to think so. But is it? Then why do we punish a man who steals to feed an addiction? He is addicted, he gets a craving, he can’t control himself. Does he not need treatment instead of punishment? Why do we punish those who steal to feed a starving child? Do we value property more than we do life? Surely, that can’t be the case.

    Morality is a factor of society. It’s an outcome of culture. What is or isn’t evil is a question that’s subject to that morality and it varies from one culture to another. We can wish for a world without “evil” but, as soon as we ask ourselves what “evil” is, we tend to run into problems.

    Of course, one could turn around and say that it makes good sense to become a theist if that puts our mind at ease; if we end up believing in something good and we act accordingly. But is that rational? It can’t be. If God doesn’t exist, then believing in Him just to feel better isn’t anymore rational than a cancer patient forcing himself to believe that he’s healthy. And if God does exist, then this “wishful thinking” approach can’t be a rational reason to believe in Him. There is no causal connection between wishing for God’s existence and God’s existence being true. So, if someone believes on these grounds and happens to be right, it’s just a lucky coincidence. But lucky coincidences in this context are pure guesses. They are not rational choices.

    Pascal’s Wager

    Pascal’s Wager can be summarised by the following:

    “I may be right or I may be wrong. If I believe in God and I am wrong then I have nothing to lose. If I don’t believe in God and I am wrong then I stand to lose everything”.

    Surprisingly enough, I happen to know theists who have turned to God for no other reasons than that. But this can’t be a rational approach. Firstly, if God exists, is He likely to accept this as genuine belief? I can’t speak for God’s sense of fairness but I certainly wouldn’t. Rather, it’s a wiseguy approach aimed at attempting to secure a reward without truly deserving it. Can a Pascal’s Wager believer be considered a believer in the true sense? That question remains open.

    But on another level, is there a reason at all to even engage in Pascal’s Wager unless some rational reason exists to become a theist in the first place? If there is no rational reason to take the big step of becoming a theist, why would one even worry about risking an eternity in “hell”? (I use that term loosely as obviously there are different versions of it in various religions and some don’t have it at all). I suggest that there isn’t. If there are no other rational reasons for believing in the first place, undertaking Pascal’s Wager would be like avoiding crossing an old a train track that has long been disconnected from any functioning train services. There is no rational reason to suppose that a train can ever run on that track.


    Culture, tradition, upbringing

    Why do we have whole countries that are predominantly theist (eg Poland)? Why do we have whole countries that are predominantly atheist (eg Sweden)? Poland and Sweden are no further from each other than LA is from Chicago. And yet such a difference. Is this because God’s message hasn’t reached Sweden? Doubtful. Is this because the Polish are smarter than the Swedish? Doubtful. Less smart? Doubtful. Then why such differences? Isn’t it down to culture? Parents, kinder, school, society. We learn from those around us. It would seem that so many people have made that step of becoming theists based simply on the social conditions around them. But is this rational?

    In the sense of “fitting in” it might be. You’re more likely to make friends if you’re just like everyone else is. You might even be more likely to get a job (hidden prejudices do exist). But what would we think of a believer who says he only believes because he wants to be liked or to get a job? We’d think he’s pragmatic. Would we think he’s a real believer? Possibly not. Would those who truly believe accept him as a real believer? Possibly not. Then is he in fact a real believer?

    Does it make any sense to believe in God just because your mother does? Probably not. If you’re going to hold out that God in fact exists and that you know His characteristics and that you know how to please Him, you should rely on some evidence of His existence (“evidence” used in the broad sense here) rather than simply on the fact that it happens to be the “in thing” in your family.

    At the end of the day, believing in God simply because those around you do, is akin to appealing to popularity. It’s not a rational choice. If your mother taught you (and I know some mothers who did) that men are inherently smarter than women or that it’s perfectly ok to take drugs, would it be rational for you to accept those claims as facts? I submit that it wouldn’t.

    It’s not rational to believe simply because those around you believe.



    Conclusion

    We are atheists by default. We need a reason to become theists. In the foregoing paragraphs, I have demonstrated that a number of common reasons why people may become theists are not rational reasons.

    I conclude that, at least insofar as the above reasons are concerned, it is irrational for a person to become a theist.


    There may be other reasons why one chooses to turn to God; ones that I have not discussed. They can, of course, be raised here for discussion.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?

    Excellent post. However, too many points and topics have been brought up for me to address properly in one post, so I will take my time with them.

    I would appreciate not having twenty different replies every time I turn around. I am no superman, so if twenty people take up debate against me while I'm trying to address a large list of issues all at once, it is simply too much to ask of me that I reply to all of you. So guess what, I'm not going to bother replying to all of you. I know (it happens everytime) that multiple people will try to take me up on this and because they are more active then me, they will flood me with responses.

    Now for the actual meat of the debate.


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    Originally Posted by Allocutus
    The meaning of theism for this argument........
    You fail to cover agnosticism, which is not synonymous with atheism and is a valid position in its own right.

    Lack of theism is the default position

    I believe that lack of theism is the default position. When people are born, they do not have any belief in God. They have no knowledge of the concept of God, nor do they have the mental ability to obtain such knowledge such early a stage of mental development.

    One might argue that a newborn can’t be an atheist precisely because he doesn’t have any ability to either have faith or not. Thus, a newborn is neither a theist nor an atheist; he is simply a-philosophical (for want of a better term). To avoid going on a lengthy tangent on that detail, I am happy with that position. Thus, for those who would feel inclined to embark on this line of argument, “atheism” can be redefined to state that “a person is an atheist if he is capable of understanding the meaning of belief in a God or gods and lacks a belief in a God or gods.” This would mean that a newborn is not an atheist but at some stage during development a child becomes one as he becomes capable of understanding the meaning of belief in a God or gods.

    What follows from the above is that, while the default position (that is, the position at birth) is not necessarily atheistic, it certainly can’t be theistic. A newborn is either an atheist or “non-philosophical”. In either of those cases, the newborn is not a theist.

    Since the default position is that of not being a theist, becoming a theist is a positive step. When I say “positive” I don’t mean it in the sense of “good step”. I simply mean that it is some occurrence or some action or some change of state that has to take place in order for the person to become a theist; if nothing at all happens, the person will remain an atheist. I use the term “atheist” at this point because the person I am discussing is necessarily at the stage of development where he is capable of becoming a theist and must therefore be capable of understanding the meaning of belief. This, in turn means, that he is no longer “non-philosophical” but is now an atheist (in the weak sense).

    The question for this thread is this: what reason can there be for a person to change their position from atheist to theist? Would such a change be rational? I will attempt to show that it would not be.
    I am one of those who holds to the position that since a newborn or sufficiently young child has is incapable of comprehending the issue and has no knowledge regarding it, that they can no more be an atheist then they can be a theist. Since you are willing to accept this, I will not argue this point further.

    For a person to even hold a position implies that this person has (1) a basic knowledge regarding the issue and (2) a stance regarding the issue.

    In having a position, the individual has a priori knowledge and has already made up their mind regarding the issue. One must consider the question before one can comprehend it and take a position upon it. So to even have a position, one must first consider the issue. Prior to that, no position is held. How can one have a default position when one doesn't even have a position at that point? Thats like in a race between you and me, saying that the default position is that "I win."

    Now, the basis for your "default" position is what a "newborn" believes or does not believe. This is not only highly problematic, but slightly ridiculous. How can you use as the basis for your default, something that is incapable of holding a position to begin with?

    Since we are individuals that are capable of comprehending the issue and deciding, then the default position should be based on such individuals as opposed to a newborn. Using your "newborn" logic, the "default position on what 1 + 1 equals would be "not two" because the newborn does not know that 1 + 1 = 2.

    If we base our "default" position as it should be on that of individuals actually capable of comprehending the concept, then we should ask ourselves what it is that individuals default to when presented with questions like; "Why does the Universe exist," and "Why am I here?" The typical response of most individuals is that there is a God or gods and this has been the response of nearly every culture throughout history. The Christian philosopher Alvin Plantinga has argued that Theism is a properly basic belief. Typically atheism is something an individual arrives at later in life, after rejecting a prior set of theistic beliefs. If atheism is something that is arrived after reasoning away from theistic beliefs, then atheism is not the starting point, but rather theism. Atheism becomes something that must be inferred from outside sources that supposedly negate the necessity for God.

    So in other words, people ask the big questions such as "Where do we come from?" The default answer to this is not evolution, string theory, or nothing, but rather God. It is obvious, to us as rational beings, that another rational being is the best explanation for such questions. So in response to the question "where did life come from," the default answer is God. We can go on down the line of similar questions in which the default answer is another rational being, i.e. God. As God becomes the default answer to such questions, belief in Him is quite obvious from the start and subsequent beliefs are derived from Him. This makes belief in God both basic and a default starting point. In contrast, atheism, requires one to give alternative answers to such questions that are not at all obvious. That is why individuals like Richard Dawkins base their atheism primarily on evolution. They recognize the fact that without alternative explanation, God is the most obvious belief, so they seek in evolution and science, the justification for their atheism.

    As a result, atheism is inferred from other beliefs and other sources of knowledge. It is arrived at, not as a default, but after reasoning away from the default, which is God. Atheism therefore is not a properly basic belief because it is dependent upon other beliefs. And it is not a default, because it comes after the fact.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by Allocutus
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    Conclusion

    We are atheists by default. We need a reason to become theists. In the foregoing paragraphs, I have demonstrated that a number of common reasons why people may become theists are not rational reasons.

    I conclude that, at least insofar as the above reasons are concerned, it is irrational for a person to become a theist.


    There may be other reasons why one chooses to turn to God; ones that I have not discussed. They can, of course, be raised here for discussion.
    When one looks at material science and asks the questions:

    Why are we here?

    How did mankind come to be (from inorganic matter on Earth)?

    To state that Theism is an "irrational position" requires one to ignore Accom's Razor -- that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.

    Choosing Theism is not mutually exclusive to being rational or scientific. Indeed many scientific theories, priniciples and laws have been developed and put forth by theists in every scientific area,...and hold up to scientific scrutiny of atheist scientists as well.

    To state that reasons for theism are irrational is in fact rather biased. When it comes to choosing atheism over theism and vice versa - it is indeed a very personal process to adherents of both, not subject to "winning or losing" a debate except with oneself. To state one belief is rational while the other is not is in fact itself an irrational proposition.

    It is not unlike arguing that one's having heterosexual or homosexual tendencies is related to reason and rational. There might be causes, but reasons and rational are meaningless to everyone save the individual in question -- At least until it is proven beyond a doubt God does not exist or vice versa.

    Whether one chooses atheism or theism -- it is at its core a matter of faith for both. And faith by it's very definition does not require absolute proof. Therefore both positions are equally "irrational" or equally "Rational".

    I would suggest, although I am not willing to debate or "prove" this, that one's personal beliefs in God, or the lack of same, are most likely more closely related to our own self images, and the size of each of our egos. The atheist position is more self-centered. The theist position is centered outside oneself.

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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by chadn737
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    In having a position, the individual has a priori knowledge and has already made up their mind regarding the issue. One must consider the question before one can comprehend it and take a position upon it. So to even have a position, one must first consider the issue. Prior to that, no position is held. How can one have a default position when one doesn't even have a position at that point? Thats like in a race between you and me, saying that the default position is that "I win."
    Let's look at the definition of atheism, though.

    –noun 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
    2. disbelief [my emphasis] in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

    Disbelief is:

    the inability [my emphasis] or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.

    Considering that an infant does not believe in a god or gods because s/he is unable to do so, wouldn't that technically qualify him/her as an atheist?
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by chadn737
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    You fail to cover agnosticism, which is not synonymous with atheism and is a valid position in its own right.
    I don't think I "failed" to cover agnosticism as such. Rather, my definition of atheism was such that it included "weak atheism" in the sense of a lack of belief in God. I don't necessarily insist on that definition. I am not here to argue about words and I hope that we can both agree on some meaning of essential terms so that we can discuss the substance of the matter.

    Thus, if you wish to insist that there are 3 major positions in reference to belief (theism -believing that God exists, atheism - believing that God doesn't exist, and agnosticism - not having either of those two positions) then I am happy to go along with that. As I am about to show, it makes no difference to my argument.

    I am one of those who holds to the position that since a newborn or sufficiently young child has is incapable of comprehending the issue and has no knowledge regarding it, that they can no more be an atheist then they can be a theist. Since you are willing to accept this, I will not argue this point further.

    For a person to even hold a position implies that this person has (1) a basic knowledge regarding the issue and (2) a stance regarding the issue.
    I am happy to accept that as well, although initially your (2) was not part of my position. However, once again, I don't believe this in any way affects the flow or the conclusion of my argument.


    In having a position, the individual has a priori knowledge and has already made up their mind regarding the issue. One must consider the question before one can comprehend it and take a position upon it. So to even have a position, one must first consider the issue. Prior to that, no position is held. How can one have a default position when one doesn't even have a position at that point? Thats like in a race between you and me, saying that the default position is that "I win."
    I am happy to agree that prior to consideration no position is held. Again, this doesn't attack my argument. Rather, it furiously agrees with it; as I will attempt to demonstrate below.

    Now, the basis for your "default" position is what a "newborn" believes or does not believe. This is not only highly problematic, but slightly ridiculous. How can you use as the basis for your default, something that is incapable of holding a position to begin with?

    Since we are individuals that are capable of comprehending the issue and deciding, then the default position should be based on such individuals as opposed to a newborn. Using your "newborn" logic, the "default position on what 1 + 1 equals would be "not two" because the newborn does not know that 1 + 1 = 2.
    I'm not sure if it's entirely fair for you to suggest that I have argued that newborns have a position. In fact, I agreed from the very start to take the direction that newborns are incapable of taking a position and should be excluded from our discussions in the first place.


    If we base our "default" position as it should be on that of individuals actually capable of comprehending the concept, then we should ask ourselves what it is that individuals default to when presented with questions like; "Why does the Universe exist," and "Why am I here?" The typical response of most individuals is that there is a God or gods and this has been the response of nearly every culture throughout history. The Christian philosopher Alvin Plantinga has argued that Theism is a properly basic belief. Typically atheism is something an individual arrives at later in life, after rejecting a prior set of theistic beliefs. If atheism is something that is arrived after reasoning away from theistic beliefs, then atheism is not the starting point, but rather theism. Atheism becomes something that must be inferred from outside sources that supposedly negate the necessity for God.
    Now this is where we come to the crux of our dispute on this subject.

    Firstly, whether or not most individuals answer the question in the affirmative is in no way relevant to the default position as it applies in the context of the OP. Let's briefly re-visit my original claim.

    I have claimed that the default position is that of an atheist. I meant it in the "weak atheist" sense. This means that a person simply has no belief in God. I wasn't claiming that the person believes that there is no God, nor that the person has at all addressed the issue of whether or not God exists. Now, it appears that you want to claim that this is not a position at all. That might be so. But if so, weak atheism is not a position. It's simply the lack of any belief in God, no matter what the reason. Such a person is not positing that there is no God. He simply lacks any belief. Let's say, for argument's sake, that this is not a position at all. Let's also say that it can't even be called "weak atheism" (let's say the term doesn't exist). What's the result of this? The result is that the default is a lack of position. This needs some further explanation.

    When a child is born, the child is incapable of rational thought or of taking any position at all. We have agreed on this. At some point in his development he becomes capable of thought and at some point he becomes capable of forming a theological position. He becomes capable of understanding what it means to "believe". It is only at this point that we can even begin discussion positions. I think you would agree with that.

    Obviously the child can't be a theist before he is capable of comprehending the meaning of belief. Thus, it has to be the other way around. His brain develops to the point where he is capable of such comprehension and subsequently he may, or may not, become a theist. Just what it is that makes him become a theist is, of course, dependent on the circumstances of the individual case. It may be that his mother tells him about God or that his friends do. It also may be (who knows?) that he asks himself various questions, for example "where did we come from?" and himself decides that there must be an intelligent Maker. I would find that doubtul but I am not going to exlude that as a possibility just at this point.

    But you see, my entire point is that, from the time of becoming sufficiently intellectually developed to understand the meaning of belief and until the time that he actually takes a theist position, he has no position at all. And having no position, he certainly doesn't have a theist's position. In my OP this meant he was an atheist (in the weak sense). I am, however (as agreed above), happy to settle for saying that he has no position at all. It makes no difference.

    For this child to actually take a position, he has to take a positive step in that direction. Thus, to become a theist, he has to take a positive step. Of course, to take a (strong) atheist position, he also has to take a positive step. But the OP isn't concerned with that. The thread is concerned with the positive step that's needed to assume a theist position.






    So in other words, people ask the big questions such as "Where do we come from?" The default answer to this is not evolution, string theory, or nothing, but rather God. It is obvious, to us as rational beings, that another rational being is the best explanation for such questions. So in response to the question "where did life come from," the default answer is God.
    The "default answer" might be God. (This doesn't make it a rational answer and I have addressed that in my discussion of the argument from design). But "default answer" is not something that comes about until the question is posed in the first place. So, our child becomes capable of rational thought and capable of understanding the meaning of belief. At that point he has no position at all. Then he will at some point ask the question. He will usually (I would think) ask it of his parents. For the sake of argument, he may ask the question of himself. Once the question is asked, an answer is given and he may then assume a position or he may not. He may simply start considering his position. The ultimate position he assumes may well be a theist position. But until the question is asked and answered, there is no position. The person is capable of understanding belief but holds no position. In my OP this lack of position was defined as atheist (because I have allowed for the existence of "weak atheism"). In this sense, I am happy to redefine my claim to state that the default position is no position at all (this is consistent with the OP anyway but it simply reflects my willingness to go with your preferred nomenclature just to avoid confusion if nothing else).

    The bottom line is that there has to be a positive step from "no position" to a position (or, as per OP, from a "weak atheist position" to a theist position).




    We can go on down the line of similar questions in which the default answer is another rational being, i.e. God. As God becomes the default answer to such questions, belief in Him is quite obvious from the start and subsequent beliefs are derived from Him. This makes belief in God both basic and a default starting point. In contrast, atheism, requires one to give alternative answers to such questions that are not at all obvious. That is why individuals like Richard Dawkins base their atheism primarily on evolution. They recognize the fact that without alternative explanation, God is the most obvious belief, so they seek in evolution and science, the justification for their atheism.
    I have outlined my position in the paragraph above. Your discussion of atheism in the above paragraph is that of "strong atheistm" in the sense of a "belief that there is no God". My claim that the default position is in the sense of "weak atheism" which you appear to define as "no position".

    Finally, you appear to be asserting that a person has the natural tendency to answer "the question" by deferring to God and that that tendency is independent of any external sources. At least, my impression is that this is your claim. In other words, this would mean that you are saying that a child who is not told about God at all is likely to come up with the idea for himself. If that is indeed your position then I would like you to support that. By positing this, you would be making a positive claim which should call for evidence in support. That is not to say that this apparent claim of yours in any way attacks my argument. If individuals do indeed have a tendency to ask the question and answer it for themselves and arrive at God without any external information about God, this doesn't change the fact that they have to be mentally capable of understanding belief before they can even engage in this course of thought. Thus, at that point and until they answer the question, they are without position and taking a theist position requires a positive step (in this hypothetical case, the step is the answering of their own question). However, I find the claim (if that indeed is your claim) unusual and I find it difficult to accept without supporting evidence.


    As a result, atheism is inferred from other beliefs and other sources of knowledge. It is arrived at, not as a default, but after reasoning away from the default, which is God. Atheism therefore is not a properly basic belief because it is dependent upon other beliefs. And it is not a default, because it comes after the fact.
    Again, this may be right for "strong atheism". But again, my OP has defined atheism as "lack of belief in God". This was a reference to "weak atheism". The latter doens't require any consideration of the question, so long as the mental capacity to understand the concept of belief is there. Furthermore, once again, for the purposes of our argument, I am happy to simply say that the default position is one of "no position at all". One way or another, a positive step is required to assume the theist position.
    Last edited by Allocutus; February 9th, 2009 at 05:31 AM.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by Spartacus
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    When one looks at material science and asks the questions:

    Hello and thank you for your input...


    Why are we here?
    We don't have a purpose for being here. Assuming a purpose is a violation of Accom's Razor itself.


    How did mankind come to be (from inorganic matter on Earth)?
    We have evolved, just like all other living creatures on Earth. It started off with the first self-replicating molecule (or a number of them). There is nothing particularly strange about that, given the immense time allowed for the process. Scientists today are generally in consensus about this, although they are not all agreed on the precise mechanisms involved.


    To state that Theism is an "irrational position" requires one to ignore Accom's Razor -- that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.
    If you want to argue that proposing that an omnipotent sentient entity exists and had pre-existed the universe and then created the universe and everything in it, including life and every aspect thereof is consistent with minimising the number of assumptions then please give it a shot. I would suggest that entropy is a much better explanation and involves much fewer assumptions.

    Just what assumptions would you say are involved in the Theory of Evolution?


    Choosing Theism is not mutually exclusive to being rational or scientific. Indeed many scientific theories, priniciples and laws have been developed and put forth by theists in every scientific area,...and hold up to scientific scrutiny of atheist scientists as well.
    I'm not claiming that choosing theism necessarily excludes being rational in the sense of accepting science. What I am saying that the very choice of theism is irrational. I have presented quite a detailed argument on this (see OP). Which part of it do you disagree with and why?


    To state that reasons for theism are irrational is in fact rather biased. When it comes to choosing atheism over theism and vice versa - it is indeed a very personal process to adherents of both, not subject to "winning or losing" a debate except with oneself. To state one belief is rational while the other is not is in fact itself an irrational proposition.
    I have supported my assertions in the OP. Would you care to attempt to debunk them? I respect your opinion generally but it doesn't appear to address my contention as argued by the OP.


    It is not unlike arguing that one's having heterosexual or homosexual tendencies is related to reason and rational. There might be causes, but reasons and rational are meaningless to everyone save the individual in question -- At least until it is proven beyond a doubt God does not exist or vice versa.
    I disagree. If a reason is irrational, it is irrational regardless of whether the individual in question thinks it to be sound.


    Whether one chooses atheism or theism -- it is at its core a matter of faith for both. And faith by it's very definition does not require absolute proof. Therefore both positions are equally "irrational" or equally "Rational".
    Once again, you are not addressing the argument put in the OP. I have discussed quite a number of various reasons why people turn to theism and I have argued that those reasons are not rational. I have began this by positing that the default position is that of "weak atheism" or, if you prefer, of no positive theistic position at all. Thus, to change that position (or, if you prefer, to take any position in the first place), requires a positive step. I have claimed that a number of reasons for such steps (insofar as moving towards theism goes) are irrational. If you wish to address these, please feel free to do so.


    I would suggest, although I am not willing to debate or "prove" this, that one's personal beliefs in God, or the lack of same, are most likely more closely related to our own self images, and the size of each of our egos. The atheist position is more self-centered. The theist position is centered outside oneself.
    Although ego has nothing to do with questions of rationality, I have to say I disagree with your proposition above. I believe that atheists are in fact the humbler kind whereas the theist worldview is more self-centred. Atheists don't posit that we are anything special. Rather, we believe that we are just a speck of nothing in a vastly huge universe. There is no loving Maker who takes any particular liking to us or any particular interest in us. We weren't created to rule the planet. We weren't created in any god's image. We have evolved from microorganisms and reptiles and when we die we rot away and turn to dust. We have no surviving soul. There is no everlasting life. We're nothing special. Can one get any more humble than that?
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?

    I can't rep you for this (yet) because it won't let me, yet. But Bravo! I think I may have to reconsider my theism if I was a theist. In place of my rep, here is the tally on this post after I copied it into MS Word 2003... Per Lady Phoenix's Question...."How many characters did it wind up being".....

    Pages, 15
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    For some odd reason, it only listed 2 paragraphs LOL

    However, so the post doesn't get deleted, wouldn't an infants default position (or lack there of) be Agnosticism? I say this because agnosticism has to do with knowledge or more specifically, the lack of knowledge. An infant doesn't have knowledge of either postion of atheism or theism. Where Theism and Atheism deals primarily with belief or the lack of belief. Is this just a minor point? Am I quibbling over symantics of weak atheism?



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    Read it carefully, it's not a difficult read on physics and quantum mechanics.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?

    that could be possible, it depends on how you look at it,
    anyway,
    chad was right, I would shorten it
    my plain answer:No
    reasoning: all the debates for proving that he exists has presented no ration, and if it has I apologise for saying so,[I really cant think of a truly rational debate for existance of anything that cannot be sensed by our limited senses]
    maybe this is how its supposed to be, maybe its supposed to be this way because that was how it was planned.

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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by Allocutus
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    Culture, tradition, upbringing

    Why do we have whole countries that are predominantly theist (eg Poland)? Why do we have whole countries that are predominantly atheist (eg Sweden)? Poland and Sweden are no further from each other than LA is from Chicago. And yet such a difference. Is this because God’s message hasn’t reached Sweden? Doubtful. Is this because the Polish are smarter than the Swedish? Doubtful. Less smart? Doubtful. Then why such differences? Isn’t it down to culture? Parents, kinder, school, society. We learn from those around us. It would seem that so many people have made that step of becoming theists based simply on the social conditions around them. But is this rational?

    In the sense of “fitting in” it might be. You’re more likely to make friends if you’re just like everyone else is. You might even be more likely to get a job (hidden prejudices do exist). But what would we think of a believer who says he only believes because he wants to be liked or to get a job? We’d think he’s pragmatic. Would we think he’s a real believer? Possibly not. Would those who truly believe accept him as a real believer? Possibly not. Then is he in fact a real believer?

    Does it make any sense to believe in God just because your mother does? Probably not. If you’re going to hold out that God in fact exists and that you know His characteristics and that you know how to please Him, you should rely on some evidence of His existence (“evidence” used in the broad sense here) rather than simply on the fact that it happens to be the “in thing” in your family.

    At the end of the day, believing in God simply because those around you do, is akin to appealing to popularity. It’s not a rational choice. If your mother taught you (and I know some mothers who did) that men are inherently smarter than women or that it’s perfectly ok to take drugs, would it be rational for you to accept those claims as facts? I submit that it wouldn’t.

    It’s not rational to believe simply because those around you believe.
    I'm not buying this; your refutation of the cultural/social rationale for belief is inadequate.

    I've emphasized by underlining particular statements which I find questionable in their justification. I've also emphasized in bold your massive appeals to "possibility" and wishy-washy language. This last section on culture is in significant contrast to the rest of your post; while much of the rest I find strong in presentation and content, this last section fails rather spectacularly.

    Either revise it, or drop the argument and concede that culture and social upbringing can be a valid rationale for belief. I can't accept a vague indication that it "probably" or "possibly" cannot be rational.
    Last edited by Fangrim; February 9th, 2009 at 11:10 AM.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by Allocutus
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    We don't have a purpose for being here. Assuming a purpose is a violation of Accom's Razor itself.
    You are assuming "Why" indicates an answer regarding purpose, when it could also indicate an answer as to causality. What other assumptions have you made knowingly or otherwise?

    We have evolved, just like all other living creatures on Earth. It started off with the first self-replicating molecule (or a number of them). There is nothing particularly strange about that, given the immense time allowed for the process. Scientists today are generally in consensus about this, although they are not all agreed on the precise mechanisms involved.
    Yes even Theists agree on this. But Evolution does not explain how life sprung from non-life. And as for the Big Bang, there are today only some developing theories to explain how it came to be.

    My time is limited so I choose not to respond to everything posted in your dissertation here. Mainly I contend you are coming from a position of bias. Reasons for theism can be just as rational as reasons for atheism.

    When sciences like cosmology and archeology tend to prove events in Scripture rather than disprove it, it tends to be a powerful argument for belief. "Let there be light" was written 6,000 years before scientists found evidence of the Big Bang. What are the odds? How many other "Creation Myths" start with a description of an explosion in a vacuum?

    However when science tends to disprove scripture-- for example the Book of Mormon has no shred of archeological evidence supporting it except the evidence provided by Mormon archeologists -- well...my apologies to any LDS who might take offense.

    As for your bias: why do you lump believers in religions having scripture with no scientific and archeological proof in with believers in religions whose scripture does tend to hold up -- namely the Judeo/Christian Scripture?

    I know for me personally, my theism came about only after taking a University level Document Forensics Class, and doing a paper on the New Testament of the Holy Bible. I was not a theist at the time, yet after my investigation, found that the New Testament rings as a truthful document, rather than a fabrication or fable. I had formally rejected the Church I was raised in five years before this. No one was more surprised than I at the results of my findings. I had thought a forensic look at the NT would tend to disprove it. This spurred me on to more research, and eventually I came to theism. Actually, my professor, a lifelong atheist might have been more surprised than I. He termed my results: "Powerfully convincing -- much to my personal surprise." and I received the highest possible grade.

    My deciding to adopt theism despite "evidence beyond doubt" is no more rational or irrational than the atheist choosing their position despite having the same level of evidence for their position. However, the atheist position, for many atheists, holds the Holy Bible is fable, myth. That is not the case at all. Yes, much of it is allegorical, but many of the major historical events of it have been proven as fact. More factual than many other historical documents from that period.

  11. #11

    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by Allocutus
    Design arguments

    Arguments that fall within this category are arguments that rely on the very organised nature of the world around us, of life itself and of the human body and its functions. It is claimed that things couldn’t fall into place so well unless there was an intelligent designer behind their creation.

    The first question to ask is: are things really so well organised? I assert that they’re not. The universe is a very random place with huge numbers of bodies and galaxies and clusters of galaxies, all expanding as a result of what scientists call The Big Bang. Stars and galaxies collide, they die, the get attracted to the gravity of other objects and form new bodies or groups of bodies. Of course, from our human perspective, given that we have been around but for a fraction of a second in universal terms, the universe seems very organised. It would certainly look that way to the ancient inhabitants of this planet. They didn’t have the science and the technology to see the chaos that reigns in the universe when considered at the grand scale.

    We have strong evidence that the Earth was one day filled with dinosaurs. They roamed the planet for millions of years. And yet, in a relatively short time they became extinct. Some scientists believe this resulted from an asteroid hit. Others blame it on a volcanic eruption. Yet others claim that it was a combination of the two. Whatever the truth of the matter, each is a viable and natural explanation. My question is: what is so organised about a universe where an entire class of species gets wiped out by a single cosmic (or volcanic) event? One might think this event was chaotic; not to say random.

    The argument from design has had its heyday. Most scientists (by far) today accept the theory of natural selection as true. The theory holds water because it explains the evolution of life as a natural process. Living things adapt to their environment by way of random mutations. We see these mutations every day. We see kids born with 6 fingers or animals born with two tails. We see insects with unusual (for their species) colours. It’s completely logical to say that a creature that is better adapted to survive is more likely to leave offspring. It’s equally logical to say that the offspring is likely to inherit the parent’s traits. We all know this. Heredity has been known to humans since ancient times. Today, scientists explain it in terms of genetics and DNA. So, if animals that are better adapted to survive are more likely to leave behind offspring, they are more likely to pass on those better-adapted traits. Over time, this results in a changing population. Sometimes, the original population dies out and only those with the new traits remain. At other times, both populations survive and simply branch off in different directions. But we know that creatures change. We have the fossil record. Scientists use that fossil record to look at how creatures have evolved over time. It all makes perfect sense. Sure, there are many details that still need explanation. There always will be. Humans strive for knowledge and the more we know the more we learn about how much more there is to learn. But the point here is that evolution in terms of natural selection makes perfect sense.

    I have outlined some very common scientific views just to show that there are perfectly natural explanations for the way the world is “organised”. I am not trying to prove that they are true. I don’t need to prove that. Why? Because we are looking for a positive reason for a default atheist to change the status quo and become a theist. So, in order to make a rational and informed choice to take this step based on arguments from design, the person would have to be aware of the scientific explanations and reject them in favour of the competing theory. But let’s look at what that entails.

    1. The argument from design starts from the premiss that things are too complicated to have arisen without an intelligent designer.
    2. But in order to overcome the hurdle in (1), the argument posits the pre-existence of a being even more complex and organised than the universe itself is; a being so complex and so organised that it was capable of creating the universe and all the complex things within it.

    The contradiction is a glaring one.

    Some apologists will contend that the being in question is God and that ONLY GOD is capable of being so organised and so complex and of always having existed. In my submission that is circular reasoning. It assumes that God does have certain properties in the first place and that nothing else could have some of those properties. The apologist is further likely to resort to God’s unknowable nature. We can’t comprehend God and therefore we can’t be critical of the propositions put by arguments from design. But the fact of the matter is that we don’t fully understand the beginning of the universe either. If we did, there would be no argument from design in the first place. Once we get our heads around this proposition, the argument from design becomes a species of an argument from ignorance.

    Since we don’t understand the beginning of the universe, we can’t claim that the universe was governed by the same laws then as it is now. In fact, many scientists believe that it wasn’t. The nature of the universe during the Planck Epoch was markedly different to what it is now. For example, it is suggested that all forces were unified at that stage.
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    To conclude this section, arguments from design contradict much of the scientific knowledge that we have today. In addition, they rely on circular logic by positing the pre-existence of something even more complex in order to explain the existence of something less complex which, they claim, couldn’t exist except for the existence and interference of the more complex being.

    Therefore, for an atheist to rely on arguments from design in the big step of becoming a theist, he would have to reject the majority of the body of science and to accept a circular argument. I submit that this is not a rational course to take.
    I find your argument here a tad disappointing. You focus on Evolution (giving only the briefest accounts), barely mention the concept of design at a cosmological scale, and are completely silent on the issue of how life began.

    For me, Evolution is a non-issue and and if I touch upon it, it will only be to correct your mistakes, such as equating Natural Selection to Evolution. Natural Selection and Evolution are not synonymous. To equate the two, is too uphold an outdated strict Darwinism viewpoint that held that Natural Selection is the only force of Evolution. Under the Modern Synthesis, we now recognize the power of Genetic Drift in Evolution.

    On the issue of design in the laws and constants of the Universe, which I will refer to as "Cosmological Design," your overly brief treatment of the issue does not do it justice.

    First off, lets look at your primary argument against, that the unification of the various forces shows that everything was different in the early universe. That is a false argument. It is true that at one point in the early universe, the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces were unified (unification with gravity has not been worked out as of yet and yes I am aware of string theory), however, this is not equivalent to the laws and constants of nature being different. Something like Planck's constant is not different at this period in the Universe, because the forces are unified. You've put the cart before the horse. The forces are unified because of the laws of and constants of nature. The reason we know that at sufficiently early periods of the Universe that the forces were unified is because we assume that the very same laws and constants we know now, hold true back then. As a result, when one does the mathematics, you find that the electromagnetic, weak, and strong forces become unified.

    So rather than being evidence against the early universe having different laws or constants, the unification of the forces is evidence for it.

    Furthermore, I would challenge that the idea that there has been a change in the constants (not the laws, because that would make everything unreliable and impossible for Science) is a minority view amongst physicists and one that does not have support. Whereas the physical evidence supports that these constants are indeed constant throughout the history of our universe, up until the the creation of the Universe in the Big Bang.

    Finally, you do not mention the problem of life. How did it begin? Why did it begin in the first place? This is problematic and an issue distinct from Evolution. From what I know of life at the molecular level, it simply does not seem likely or possible for life to simply arise spontaneously through undirected chemical processes.

    I will go into greater depth on these topics later.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by Itsdarts
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    I can't rep you for this (yet) because it won't let me, yet. But Bravo! I think I may have to reconsider my theism if I was a theist. In place of my rep, here is the tally on this post after I copied it into MS Word 2003... Per Lady Phoenix's Question...."How many characters did it wind up being".....

    Pages, 15
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    For some odd reason, it only listed 2 paragraphs LOL

    However, so the post doesn't get deleted, wouldn't an infants default position (or lack there of) be Agnosticism? I say this because agnosticism has to do with knowledge or more specifically, the lack of knowledge. An infant doesn't have knowledge of either postion of atheism or theism. Where Theism and Atheism deals primarily with belief or the lack of belief. Is this just a minor point? Am I quibbling over symantics of weak atheism?
    Sure. Depends how you define "agnosticism". If we accept the existence of "weak atheism" (lack of belief rather than a positive belief in non-existence) then agnosticism (in the sense of having no position) becomes part of weak atheism. And that's the option I chose in the OP.

    At the end of the day it doesn't matter. The point of the matter is that the starting-off position is either a weak atheistic position or a non-position in the first place (and I assert they're one and the same, once properly considered). The result is that, one way or the other, a positive step is needed to end up with a theist position.
    Last edited by Allocutus; February 9th, 2009 at 03:49 PM.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by Spartacus
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    You are assuming "Why" indicates an answer regarding purpose, when it could also indicate an answer as to causality. What other assumptions have you made knowingly or otherwise?
    Because you have asked two questions.
    1. why are we here?
    2. how did mankind come to be?

    Both questions are capable to be interpreted in the context of causality but only one of them (the former) can be interpreted in the context of purpose. Thus, I figured that you either have asked one question too many (by asking the same question twice) or that you meant for the first question to address purpose. It was a logical process of thought rather than any assumption on my part.


    Yes even Theists agree on this. But Evolution does not explain how life sprung from non-life. And as for the Big Bang, there are today only some developing theories to explain how it came to be.
    No, but abiogenesis does and I have addressed that in the paragraph you are quoting.

    Of course theories are developing. They always will be. That's what science is all about. And there will be holes and voids and things we are yet to understand. But to fill a gap in scientific and empirical knowledge with the existence of a sentient and omnipotent being is irrational. It begs the question because the very reason why we're looking for an explanation in the first place is that we have assumed (thousands of years ago; long before we could even support this by evidence of any kind) that complex beings must have a beginning and can't have always existed. As it turns out, fossil record and other evidence supports that assumption. However, the development of complexity has been explained by way of evolution. What you're left with is the uncertainty about how the first self-replicating molecule originated. Most scientists agree that this process was perfectly natural. In these circumstances, it is reasonable to continue searching for the precise answer to the question. One of those possibilities MAY WELL be God. But it's irrational to assume that it WAS GOD; and even more irrational to hold that out to be an absolute truth. Filling a gap in knowledge with an omnipotent and sentient being is an appeal to ignorance. It would be permissible to say "something must have caused it; something we still don't understand" (if that's indeed the case). And you leave it at that and you remain open to further inquiry.


    My time is limited so I choose not to respond to everything posted in your dissertation here. Mainly I contend you are coming from a position of bias. Reasons for theism can be just as rational as reasons for atheism.
    You keep alluding to bias but you haven't at all supported it.


    When sciences like cosmology and archeology tend to prove events in Scripture rather than disprove it, it tends to be a powerful argument for belief. "Let there be light" was written 6,000 years before scientists found evidence of the Big Bang. What are the odds? How many other "Creation Myths" start with a description of an explosion in a vacuum?
    Firstly, archeology CAN sometimes support mythical accounts because mythical accounts very often do mention real historical events. They tend to distort them and give them supernatural spins but that doesn't mean that everything stated in a myth as a historical account is completely incorrect.

    As for "let there be light", this is hardly an example of creation being confirmed by science (by way of the Big Bang). Pure and simple observation shows us that the default state is darkness (you need to light up a bondfire to make light at night; the sun comes out and brings light). At the same time, humans have long noticed that things tend to come into existence, as opposed to existing eternally. If a myth posits that the initial state was that of no existence of anything at all then it has to posit the creation of light. Light is essential to our existence, to our perception of the world, to production of food etc etc etc. There is absolutely nothing surprising about the myth of creation having God say "let there be light". It certainly doesn't go anywhere near any position that can be supported by the Big Bang. And then, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of Biblical claims that plainly contradict science and empirical experience. For you to pick one that just happens not to and to claim that this in any way shows that the Bible is scenitifically correct is (to say the very least) a very selective exercise.


    However when science tends to disprove scripture-- for example the Book of Mormon has no shred of archeological evidence supporting it except the evidence provided by Mormon archeologists -- well...my apologies to any LDS who might take offense.

    As for your bias: why do you lump believers in religions having scripture with no scientific and archeological proof in with believers in religions whose scripture does tend to hold up -- namely the Judeo/Christian Scripture?
    The Judeo/Christian Scripture holds up in the face of science? So, woman was made from a rib. Adam named millions of species of animals just so that he and Eve could talk about them between themselves. Wonder how long that took him. There was a talking snake. Noah took 7 examples of each of the many millions of species onto a single boat. I won't ask how he fed them. I won't ask how he managed this without having them eat one another (or eat Noah himself). Surviving 3 days in the belly of a whale which happens to be a fish....And this is just the beginning. There are scores upon scores of Biblical stories that fly in the face of science. Every religion has accounts of things that are supported by science. Every religion (that I know of) has lots of things that are not suppored by science and that contradict it. That's because religion, by its nature, is concerned with things SUPERNATURAL.


    I know for me personally, my theism came about only after taking a University level Document Forensics Class, and doing a paper on the New Testament of the Holy Bible. I was not a theist at the time, yet after my investigation, found that the New Testament rings as a truthful document, rather than a fabrication or fable. I had formally rejected the Church I was raised in five years before this. No one was more surprised than I at the results of my findings. I had thought a forensic look at the NT would tend to disprove it. This spurred me on to more research, and eventually I came to theism. Actually, my professor, a lifelong atheist might have been more surprised than I. He termed my results: "Powerfully convincing -- much to my personal surprise." and I received the highest possible grade.
    What rings of truth? Would you please share?

    My deciding to adopt theism despite "evidence beyond doubt" is no more rational or irrational than the atheist choosing their position despite having the same level of evidence for their position. However, the atheist position, for many atheists, holds the Holy Bible is fable, myth. That is not the case at all. Yes, much of it is allegorical, but many of the major historical events of it have been proven as fact. More factual than many other historical documents from that period.
    The first problem here is that theism most often poses ideas that contradict science and observation and logic. Atheism doesn't. Atheism is just lack of belief in God.

    The second, and much more serious problem is this. Let's assume that you're correct (in the bolded statement above). But the default position is one of neither theist nor atheist. Thus, by default we neither believe nor disbelieve - in the strong sense - (which of course means we lack belief!). Therefore, there must be a positive reason to start believing in the first place. And I claim that no rational reasons for doing so actually exist.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by Allocutus
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    Sure. Depends how you define "agnosticism". If we accept the existence of "weak atheism" (lack of belief rather than a positive belief in non-existence) then agnosticism (in the sense of having no position) becomes part of weak atheism. And that's the option I chose in the OP.
    Actually, Allo, even the standard dictionary definition of atheism supports the claim that a lack of belief in a god or gods due to lack of knowledge about them is, indeed, atheism. See my post #4.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?

    I'd like to address your argument from the design point.


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    Originally Posted by Allocutus
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    My question is: what is so organised about a universe where an entire class of species gets wiped out by a single cosmic (or volcanic) event? One might think this event was chaotic; not to say random.
    I won't argue that the universe is not a chaotic place, but what you're ignoring here are the very underpinnings that govern physical reality: natural and physical laws. You may look at an asteroid wiping out an entire species as random, but the crux of this argument hinges upon a subjective valuation of the result: the gravity of the result (an entire species being wiped out) is asserting the degree to which the event was random. If the asteroid had been smaller and simply burned up in the Earth's atmosphere, would the "event" be considered random? I doubt it; in such cases, we'd most likely turn to the physics dictating the course of the asteroid and the various properties of the asteroid (size, mass, etc) that determined whether it would make it through and strike land. The exact same physical laws are at play regardless of the result. Ironically, it would appear that you are appealing to a "higher" sense of order or purpose (would an intelligent designer really allow for such "random" events to dictate the fate of an entire species?), which in itself presents a false dilemma: either an ID by nature would not play by such "random" rules, or the ID most likely wouldn't exist.

    Point being, such events make the universe no less organized, because you're ignoring the very physical laws that govern it. These must be considered just as much as any physical "result" when viewing how structured or organized the universe is. If you are truly to consider the universe to be up to chance, then I'd argue that the natural and physical laws governing the universe must equally be by chance as well. This is nothing but a sort of "meta existence" consideration....what necessitated or governed the laws' existences themselves?

    But the point here is that evolution in terms of natural selection makes perfect sense.
    I've always considered this to be a false dilemma, and it's why I'm boggled that so many creationist vs. evolution debates still exist. Again, the very physical and natural laws that govern how natural selection *could* occur need to be considered when looking at the argument for design. And we can't just examine evolution on such a macro level (survival of the fittest, the fluke of an opposable thumb, etc)...we also need to examine how enormously complex things are on the micro (e.g., cellular) level as well. The smaller you go, the more amazing (and more complex) it really is. I am certainly no biologist, so forgive me for oversimplifying this, but it's easy to look at a species that already reproduces and analyze what traits it may have to ensure survival versus others; but what was the "random" mutation that produced the advent of reproduction to begin with? Or the sequencing of such proteins that constitute RNA and DNA? Every single link in the chain needs to be considered here, and in my opinion, the more micro you go, the more utterly amazing it is, and the less adequate of an answer chance is.

    And turning to how small of a fraction our own existence is when compared to the age of the universe....the fraction seems rather irrelevant to me, as what we really need to consider is the total age itself: is ~13.5 billion years long enough to go from a singularity to self-aware, conscious, sentient life, supposing that each interaction (and the laws governing such interactions) were by chance alone? Some may argue that such a span of time is so astronomical that it's more than enough, but let's compare this quantity to some more easily understood examples: it's roughly a quarter of Bill Gates' net worth, 1/63 the amount of the US's stimulus plan, and 1/82 of Australia's gross domestic product. Not such a large number indeed, so if we're going off chance alone, we should most assuredly consider ourselves lucky.

    So, in order to make a rational and informed choice to take this step based on arguments from design, the person would have to be aware of the scientific explanations and reject them in favour of the competing theory. But let’s look at what that entails.

    1. The argument from design starts from the premiss that things are too complicated to have arisen without an intelligent designer.
    2. But in order to overcome the hurdle in (1), the argument posits the pre-existence of a being even more complex and organised than the universe itself is; a being so complex and so organised that it was capable of creating the universe and all the complex things within it.

    The contradiction is a glaring one.
    This is a category error. It's like looking at mathematical and physics models, positing that extra dimensions could exist that make the models fit, and then claiming that such dimensions can't exist because they don't fit within our conceptions of a 3 (or 4) dimensional universe. By definition, the dimensions are "extra", and by definition, if you posit the existence of an ID, it necessarily lies beyond the complexity of the universe.

    Some apologists will contend that the being in question is God and that ONLY GOD is capable of being so organised and so complex and of always having existed. In my submission that is circular reasoning. It assumes that God does have certain properties in the first place and that nothing else could have some of those properties.
    The circularity here lies in rebuking a definition because of the very nature of the definition. It's like tossing out extra-dimensional theories because the dimensions are extra-dimensional.

    But the fact of the matter is that we don’t fully understand the beginning of the universe either. If we did, there would be no argument from design in the first place. Once we get our heads around this proposition, the argument from design becomes a species of an argument from ignorance.
    Firstly, you're assuming your own conclusion in this argument: who's to say if we could understand the origins of the universe, we wouldn't have some sort of knowledge of an ID (I know you said there would be no argument, but I'm reading this as an assumption that ID would be proven wrong)? Secondly, the very fact that we don't understand the origins of the universe means ANY suggested explanation is an argument from ignorance. Consider the proposition that the universe always existed. Not only does this contradict the evidence of entropy that we have, it also goes against everything we currently know from a causal point of view. True, there might not need be causes for everything, but all evidence is to the contrary.

    Suggesting that everything we know regarding physical law and physical properties might simply "go out the window" at or before the moment of a supposed singularity, in my opinion, is every bit as much of an argument from ignorance as is the notion of an ID. I must wonder, if you're willing to toss aside conventional scientific reasoning/understanding at that point, why is considering an ID so much of a stretch? If we're willing to forgo conventional logic and physical law at this point, why do we insist that such things must be adhered to in all other circumstances? (This is almost universally applied towards the properties of God, for instance). If the singularity is so singular, if we're willing to give a free pass to science and our understanding at this moment, then you can't very well turn around and cite Occam's Razor as a reason God couldn't exist.

    So as a theist, this is what I face: we don't know how the universe came about, or even if it necessarily came about or simply "always was". We see such a staggering amount of complexity in both conventional life and physical reality, as well as the physical and natural laws that govern them. To many theists (including myself), suggesting that random chance brought together such things as sentient life in a time span that is 1/4 of Bill Gate's net worth is so statistically improbable that it can't be taken as a serious answer. Logically speaking, there are only a handful of rational answers that could address the origins of the universe, and none of them do so without presenting either logical contradictions or requiring that we put aside conventional scientific knowledge as we know it today.

    So in light of that, I'd argue that those facing such a draw look to "soft evidence" that, on its own, don't prove a thing, but which serve as a tipping point when considering the answer.

    EDIT--As an addendum to this argument, I'd like to address one final point that, to me at least, seems to be the 800 lb gorilla in the room. "Rational" is somewhat of a subjective term here. If you chase down whatever theory du jour and attempt to determine whether it's rational, what exactly do you mean? Does it fit with existing theories? Does it somehow explain things while fitting concisely with what we have already formulated along mathematical and physical lines? Or shall we simply define it as "this has been thought through thoroughly and has a reasonable foundation"?

    The blatant fact is, given any possible logical argument for or against a particular theory for the origins of the universe, no theory is exempt from logical and/or scientific inconsistencies. Therefore, you cannot use as a measuring stick these same inconsistencies to exclaim that ANY theory is irrational. Sure, you could attempt to apply conventional logic and scientific fact to exclude one theory as "less rational" than the other, but this is frankly duplicitous when you are willing to do exactly the same thing in support of another theory. In other words, claiming that "we just don't know" is disingenuous, because it's affording a level of leeway that you are unwilling to afford to the other possible answers (this is assuming that we are not speaking to the argument of those who claim they KNOW God exists; the assumption is that such people have rather *chosen* to believe in God).

    I therefore argue that, in light of possible answers, those who choose to believe in God because it fits with their world view, or satisfies any personal need whatsoever, are actually acting rationally. If a particular belief satisfies you and presumably lends itself towards helping you define your own reality or otherwise fulfills some sort of need, then choosing this belief is obviously quite a rational thing to do. It's quite simply a choice of what makes you happy or makes sense to you. Pragmatically speaking, such decisions determine the quality of your life, so choosing what makes you happy is very well a rational decision.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by czahar
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    Actually, Allo, even the standard dictionary definition of atheism supports the claim that a lack of belief in a god or gods due to lack of knowledge about them is, indeed, atheism. See my post #4.
    I know, czahar. I saw your post and I agree. But I don't want to end up arguing about the meaning of words. It doesn't affect my position so I'm happy to go with whatever terms an opponent wants to rely on.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by thrashee
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    I'd like to address your argument from the design point.
    Hello, and welcome to the thread.


    I won't argue that the universe is not a chaotic place, but what you're ignoring here are the very underpinnings that govern physical reality: natural and physical laws. You may look at an asteroid wiping out an entire species as random, but the crux of this argument hinges upon a subjective valuation of the result: the gravity of the result (an entire species being wiped out) is asserting the degree to which the event was random. If the asteroid had been smaller and simply burned up in the Earth's atmosphere, would the "event" be considered random? I doubt it; in such cases, we'd most likely turn to the physics dictating the course of the asteroid and the various properties of the asteroid (size, mass, etc) that determined whether it would make it through and strike land. The exact same physical laws are at play regardless of the result. Ironically, it would appear that you are appealing to a "higher" sense of order or purpose (would an intelligent designer really allow for such "random" events to dictate the fate of an entire species?), which in itself presents a false dilemma: either an ID by nature would not play by such "random" rules, or the ID most likely wouldn't exist.
    I agree with that. But the argument I was countering was that "there must be a sentient God because the Universe is so well organised". That argument is one that goes to the very organised nature of complex systems and not merely to the existence of some laws that appear to affect objects and energy in a consistent manner. The argument from design, in the form that I have opposed in my OP is not an argument that claims that there must be a God because laws of nature exist.

    If you want to posit that there must be a God because laws of nature exist then please feel free to do so. This will, of course, add a new argument to the list of "reasons for belief". I have stipulated that people are quite welcome to do that in this thread because, clearly, such arguments will be relevant to the subject matter.


    Point being, such events make the universe no less organized, because you're ignoring the very physical laws that govern it. These must be considered just as much as any physical "result" when viewing how structured or organized the universe is. If you are truly to consider the universe to be up to chance, then I'd argue that the natural and physical laws governing the universe must equally be by chance as well. This is nothing but a sort of "meta existence" consideration....what necessitated or governed the laws' existences themselves?
    Any leap from the existence of laws of nature to the existence a sentient and very very powerful entity is pure appeal to ignorance. The fact that we don't know (or may not know) what has given rise to those laws in no way supports the existence of any sentient being that predates the universe itself. The furthest you can go, if you are to act rationally, is to say that "there must be something that gives rise to the laws of nature and the question is worth investigation". You could also argue that this "something" must have certain characteristics. But there appears to be no logical reason whatsoever why sentience and omnipotence need to be part of those characteristics at all. Thus, by making such an assumption, you are making assumptions that simply don't flow from available evidence and are unsupported or unsupportable.


    I've always considered this to be a false dilemma, and it's why I'm boggled that so many creationist vs. evolution debates still exist. Again, the very physical and natural laws that govern how natural selection *could* occur need to be considered when looking at the argument for design. And we can't just examine evolution on such a macro level (survival of the fittest, the fluke of an opposable thumb, etc)...we also need to examine how enormously complex things are on the micro (e.g., cellular) level as well. The smaller you go, the more amazing (and more complex) it really is. I am certainly no biologist, so forgive me for oversimplifying this, but it's easy to look at a species that already reproduces and analyze what traits it may have to ensure survival versus others; but what was the "random" mutation that produced the advent of reproduction to begin with? Or the sequencing of such proteins that constitute RNA and DNA? Every single link in the chain needs to be considered here, and in my opinion, the more micro you go, the more utterly amazing it is, and the less adequate of an answer chance is.
    But the only question you can ask in that case is "where do natural laws come from?". This is not the classic argument from design. The argument from design relies (at least as addressed by me in the OP) relies on the very complexity of living things.

    The point here was NOT for me to give an exhaustive lecture on evolution or chemistry or sub-atomic physics. Rather, it was to simply say that perfectly natural explanations exist and are widely accepted by mainstream science (that is, people who commit their entire careers to the problem) and those are based on perfectly natural phenomena. Thus, the fact that complex creatures exist doesn't in any way support the existence of a sentient and very very powerful being. If there are (and there of course are) details of these processes (ie evolution etc) that are not fully understood at this stage, this in no way makes it any more rational to simply posit the existence of a sentient God. All it means is that we need to continue looking for answers. Experience shows that answers do come if given enough time and effort.

    Now, since these explanations do exist and are given credit by mainstream science (people "in the know"), it makes no sense to appeal to the argument from design without first considering (and rejecting) the natural and scientifically accepted explanations. To say "we don't understand the detail of some RNA-related process therefore this is support that an sentient God exists" is simply not rational. One doesn't flow from the other. The most you can conclude is that we don't have an exhaustive understanding of the phenomena in question.



    And turning to how small of a fraction our own existence is when compared to the age of the universe....the fraction seems rather irrelevant to me, as what we really need to consider is the total age itself: is ~13.5 billion years long enough to go from a singularity to self-aware, conscious, sentient life, supposing that each interaction (and the laws governing such interactions) were by chance alone? Some may argue that such a span of time is so astronomical that it's more than enough, but let's compare this quantity to some more easily understood examples: it's roughly a quarter of Bill Gates' net worth, 1/63 the amount of the US's stimulus plan, and 1/82 of Australia's gross domestic product. Not such a large number indeed, so if we're going off chance alone, we should most assuredly consider ourselves lucky.
    You're comparing years with dollars? I'm sorry but I don't follow this.

    But, going to your main point above, scientists don't appear to have a problem with the fact that we've "only" had 13.5 billion years. You know, that's an awfully long time. People have WITNESSED evolution. Experiments have been conducted on small organisms (eg microorganisms) to show that they do evolve. Bacteria have been known to become immune to antibiotics.
    Again, to say "13.5 billion years may or may not have been long enough for us to evolve from a singularity and therefore this is rational support of God's existence" is fallacious. It's an appeal to ignorance. The most you can conclude from this is this: "Scientists seem confident that evolution is a true phenomenon and that we result from it. There is no evidence of any other method of us coming into existence. If 13.5 billion years isn't enough then perhaps there are some factors in the process that we don't understand. Let's keep researching."

    The problem you are presenting can be classed as argument from personal incredulity. You find it difficult to believe that 13.5 billion years is enough to move from a singularity to conscious beings such as humans. Your problem is not new and has been posed by many theists:

    “The theory of the evolution of species initially gave rise to much disbelief. In the nineteenth century, this was in part because geological periods were believed to be much shorter. Today, it is probably because the disbelievers cannot imagine the immensity of the time lapse corresponding to four billion years. However, the recent phylogenetic studies have convinced all serious scientists that evolution is no longer in doubt.” (Armand Delsemme, “Chance or necessity?”, Our Cosmic Origins , Cambridge University Press 1998 at p 150.)

    The author of the above passage goes on to discuss the timeframe required for the random generation of life up to the first bacteria. He concludes that laboratory experiments indicate that, through a process known as hypercycle, the first protobionts could be produced in as short a period as 100 million years.

    Scientists accept evolution. They are the people who are capable of understanding it. You and I may not be. But our personal ignorance isn’t enough to make it rational for us to support belief in God on the argument from intelligent design.

    I will conclude this by saying that, even if there were no evidence at all for evolution (and there is strong scientific evidence), it would nevertheless still be irrational to use the argument from intelligent design to rationalise theistic belief. If you are prepared to accept that an omnipotent and omniscient deity exists and has always existed, it is equally plausible to believe that humans as they are have always existed. You are accepting that eternal existence of sentient beings is possible. That being the case, it is simpler and requires less assumptions to simply conclude that humans as sentient beings have always existed than it is to introduce into the equation yet another, even more complex and more potent and more intelligent being that transcends all time. Of course, we know that humans haven’t always existed because we have scientific data and calculations arising from that data. This data tells us roughly how long humans have been around. This data and the conclusions based on it is equally rational as the theory of evolution; both are based on scientific method and logical reasoning.

    This is a category error. It's like looking at mathematical and physics models, positing that extra dimensions could exist that make the models fit, and then claiming that such dimensions can't exist because they don't fit within our conceptions of a 3 (or 4) dimensional universe. By definition, the dimensions are "extra", and by definition, if you posit the existence of an ID, it necessarily lies beyond the complexity of the universe.
    But this doesn't attack the problem. It is irrational to posit the existence of something more complex than the universe itself in order to explain the existence of complex things within the universe based on the assumption that those things are too complex to exist without the existence of the more complex thing. It doesn't matter whether you choose to complicate your concept further by adding it even more dimensions. You are accepting that something way more complex than the universe DOES exist and that it exists without a cause. You are therefore accepting that it's possible for a very complex thing to exist without a cause. What's more, you are giving this complex thing the attribute of sentience. Again, there is no reason for it whatsoever. It also flies in the face of our knowledge because scientists are very convinced that the universe itself has evolved. It's irrational to reject much of the known body of scientific knowledge in favour of the concept of an extra-universal, sentient and very powerful entity for which no specific evidence at all exists in the first place.



    The circularity here lies in rebuking a definition because of the very nature of the definition. It's like tossing out extra-dimensional theories because the dimensions are extra-dimensional.
    I disagree that rebuking a definition that is self-serving is a circular approach. Please support.



    Firstly, you're assuming your own conclusion in this argument: who's to say if we could understand the origins of the universe, we wouldn't have some sort of knowledge of an ID (I know you said there would be no argument, but I'm reading this as an assumption that ID would be proven wrong)? Secondly, the very fact that we don't understand the origins of the universe means ANY suggested explanation is an argument from ignorance. Consider the proposition that the universe always existed. Not only does this contradict the evidence of entropy that we have, it also goes against everything we currently know from a causal point of view. True, there might not need be causes for everything, but all evidence is to the contrary.
    That's correct. Positing any suggestion for which there is no specific evidence is an argument from ignorance. It's not an argument from ignorance to say "If the universe is such a thing that it needs a cause to exist then something must have caused it to exist". It's not an argument from ignorance for saying "one possibility is that the universe has always existed and that there was no time at all outside the universe". It's not an argument from ignorance to say "it's possible that the universe was an offshoot of an earlier universe". But it's an argument from ignorance to say "There EXISTS an omnipotent and sentient entity who has been there before the universe and who has created the universe".


    Suggesting that everything we know regarding physical law and physical properties might simply "go out the window" at or before the moment of a supposed singularity, in my opinion, is every bit as much of an argument from ignorance as is the notion of an ID.
    No, it is not. I said it MIGHT be the case. I said we don't KNOW what the case was. I said we CAN'T ASSUME that the universe was the same and subject to the same laws at the time and from that ASSUMPTION draw a POSITIVE CONCLUSION that an omnipotent and sentient God EXISTS. And I'm not relying on EVERYTHING going "out the window". I'm relying on the fact that we can't ASSUME that the universe is such a thing that it requires causation in order for it to exist. We don't have any data about how universes as a whole behave and the ONLY REASON why we ever insist that things need a cause is because the things we have observed have required a cause. But we have never observed any UNIVERSES (as a whole). We simply don't know. And since we don't know that universes require a cause, we can't even go as far as to say that something MUST HAVE caused the Universe to exist. At best, we can say "If the Universe is such a thing that requires a cause in order for it to exist and if it hasn't always existed then there must be something that has caused the Universe to exist. One can't exclude the possibility that this was a sentient and omnipotent God as a possible explanation for this." That's fine. But that's not a theist position. Theists are those who believe that God exists, not who merely consider that His existence can't be excluded as a possible explanation for that which we don't know.


    I must wonder, if you're willing to toss aside conventional scientific reasoning/understanding at that point, why is considering an ID so much of a stretch?
    I never said that considering an ID is a stretch. What I said was that the argument from ID is irrational as a reason to change from atheist/no-position to theist. That's not the same as leaving ID as something in the realm of possibility. As I said above, IF the Universe hasn't always existed and IF it's a thing that needs a cause to exist then something must have caused it to exist. We don't know what that "something" is. It could be another universe, it could be any thing outside the universe itself. All we know is that it must be something that we don't know about and probably won't be able to know about. There's a huge leap between this and claiming the positive existence of a sentient and omnipotent God. The stretch is not in saying that God isn't impossible. The stretch is in positing that God actually EXISTS.


    If we're willing to forgo conventional logic and physical law at this point, why do we insist that such things must be adhered to in all other circumstances?
    I'm not willing to forego conventional logic or physical law. Logic remains the same as in any other situation.

    As for physical laws, I have to say I don't understand your question. Are you positing that physical laws have to be the same in our universe as outside/before our universe? It would certainly seem that way. But the only physical laws we know of are those that exist within our universe. What's more, our understanding of them stems from our observation of how things behave. We say that things attract each other by gravity because everything we've observed has gravity. But if the only thing we had observed were hippos, would we be able to say that everything attracts each other by gravity? I suggest we wouldn't. If the only thing we had observed was liquids and we noticed that they have no set shape, would we be able to conclude that matter generally has no set shape? No, we couldn't. You have to observe each CLASS of things and only then can you make any inductive conclusions such that can give rise to the formulation of a physical law.

    But the fact of the matter is we don't know how things behave where there are no universes. And, I submit that the difference is quite substantial between that and the "all other circumstances" that you refer to. So, I'm not willing to forego physical laws. Rather, I say that we don't know what laws operate outside or before a universe. We simply don't know how universes come into existence, whether at all they come into existence and whether they have to be caused in order to come into existence. Universes are special in this regard. We've never observed an entire universe and never observed the generation of a universe. Since, by definition, a universe is "everything" (and includes time and space), there is nothing that a universe can be compared to within our entire realm of experience and observation. There's no reason at all to assume that our observations of physical objects around us extend to the behaviour of whole universes.

    Hence, any statement that the universe had to have a cause or that it hasn't always existed, is in itself a big assumption. Again, refer to my above formulation of God as a mere possibility that can't be excluded. I can't deny that possibility. Equally, I can't deny the possibility that the world indeed is an ocean on the back of a giant trout. And not denying them is rational. But to choose any single one and (for no apparent reason) posit it as the absolute truth is not.

    If the singularity is so singular, if we're willing to give a free pass to science and our understanding at this moment, then you can't very well turn around and cite Occam's Razor as a reason God couldn't exist.
    I assume you mean "if you're willing to forego science and our understanding". But I'm not foregoing science. Science doesn't claim that the Universe had to have a cause or that it hasn't always existed. To say that either is true is an assumption based on no evidence.

    I can always cite Occam's Razor. But it has to be cited in the right manner. Thus, if evidence exists for complex propositions, you can't refuse to accept them simply because an alternative proposition exists that is less complex but unsupported by evidence. Occam's Razor is a principle about assumptions. If, for example, we agree to assume for our argument that the Universe had to have a cause then it would be reasonable to conclude from that assumption that something must have caused the Universe. However, any additional assumptions (such that this "something" was sentient or omnipotent or omniscient) are completely unnecessary in this context. They seem to come from nowhere and are unsupported.

    So as a theist, this is what I face: we don't know how the universe came about, or even if it necessarily came about or simply "always was". We see such a staggering amount of complexity in both conventional life and physical reality, as well as the physical and natural laws that govern them. To many theists (including myself), suggesting that random chance brought together such things as sentient life in a time span that is 1/4 of Bill Gate's net worth is so statistically improbable that it can't be taken as a serious answer. Logically speaking, there are only a handful of rational answers that could address the origins of the universe, and none of them do so without presenting either logical contradictions or requiring that we put aside conventional scientific knowledge as we know it today.
    Again you are comparing years to dollars. Why don't you then use Days for the timespan and Cents for the financial side of it? The comparison will look remarkably different.

    Random chance didn't bring about those things that you refer to. Billions of random changes did. The process is called Natural Selection and is accepted by most (by far!) scientists. It has been tested in laboratory conditions and it has been witnessed by scientists in natural conditions. You are not a scientist and you haven't performed any calculations when it comes to the odds of these things happening. The fact that you intuitively find something staggering is not a reflection of rational reasoning but simply of the fact that you are not well versed within the field. But to go from your surprise at a certain (scientifically accepted) propositions to any acceptance of the existence of a sentient and omnipotent God is nothing more than the same fallacy: appeal to personal incredulity. It's not a rational approach.

    I would like you to support your claim that random chance bringing together sentient life is STATISTICALLY IMPROBABLE. I wonder how you will go about that. How many systems do you know of where random chance has brought together life but it wasn't sentient life? How many systems do you know of where random chance has NOT brought together sentient life? How many systems are there all up? What in the world allows you to make such a bold claim without supporting it? Please present some statistical data for your claim about statistical possibilities.

    EDIT--As an addendum to this argument, I'd like to address one final point that, to me at least, seems to be the 800 lb gorilla in the room. "Rational" is somewhat of a subjective term here. If you chase down whatever theory du jour and attempt to determine whether it's rational, what exactly do you mean? Does it fit with existing theories? Does it somehow explain things while fitting concisely with what we have already formulated along mathematical and physical lines? Or shall we simply define it as "this has been thought through thoroughly and has a reasonable foundation"?
    An action is rational if it provides likely means to an agent's ends ( Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy. The "ends" here are to arrive at a belief system (in the general sense) that is as correct as possibly can be. And beliefs are rational if they are likely to be true ([i] Ibid [/]).

    In this sense, selecting a belief system by guessing or choosing at random (or for reasons not related to the probability of its truth) any particular theory that is no more probably to be true than any number of other theories is not rational because it doesn't provide you with a means that's likely to arrive at a belief system that is likely to be true.

    The blatant fact is, given any possible logical argument for or against a particular theory for the origins of the universe, no theory is exempt from logical and/or scientific inconsistencies. Therefore, you cannot use as a measuring stick these same inconsistencies to exclaim that ANY theory is irrational.
    The Big Bang is a rational theory because it is supported by scientific evidence; ie expanding universe, observations made by the Hubble Telescope, and many calculations (starting with Einstein).

    The theory of evolution is rational because it is supported by very coherent logic (in the simplest form; traits less conducive of survival are less likely to be passed on through heredity), evidence (fossil records, genetic similarities that correspond to those records, observation of currently living species - eg, bacteria evolving to be immune from certain antibiotics, laboratory experiments).


    Sure, you could attempt to apply conventional logic and scientific fact to exclude one theory as "less rational" than the other, but this is frankly duplicitous when you are willing to do exactly the same thing in support of another theory. In other words, claiming that "we just don't know" is disingenuous, because it's affording a level of leeway that you are unwilling to afford to the other possible answers (this is assuming that we are not speaking to the argument of those who claim they KNOW God exists; the assumption is that such people have rather *chosen* to believe in God).
    Not at all. The fact that we "don't know" if the universe needed to be caused is enough to say that we can't posititively claim that an agents EXISTS (as a matter of FACT) that has caused the universe. Going further, even if we DID know that the universe must have been caused, that's only enough to conclude that something must have caused the universe. It's not enough to at all suppose that that thing must have been sentient and very very powerful. Those attributes are, in the context of the explanation sought, unnecessary and unsupported. They are no different than any made up claim would be. To pose them as a mere possibility (on the same level as, for example the vomit claim or the trout claim or any other claim that anyone can possibly utter) is perfectly fine. To claim them as TRUTH (to the point of asserting them as proabable or even KNOWN TO BE TRUE) is unsupported and irrational in the sense given above.

    I therefore argue that, in light of possible answers, those who choose to believe in God because it fits with their world view, or satisfies any personal need whatsoever, are actually acting rationally.

    If a particular belief satisfies you and presumably lends itself towards helping you define your own reality or otherwise fulfills some sort of need, then choosing this belief is obviously quite a rational thing to do. It's quite simply a choice of what makes you happy or makes sense to you. Pragmatically speaking, such decisions determine the quality of your life, so choosing what makes you happy is very well a rational decision.
    I'd agree with it, in the same sense as a child who is told to believe that the Toothfairy (and I'm not being festicious here) collects his tooth at night and leaves behind money is acting rationally within his worldview. But that doesn't assist us and it's certainly not coherent within the meaning of rationality as I have posted above (and as supported by Oxford).

    If you want to claim that within this meaning of rationality, faith is a rational thing, I can't possibly oppose that. Thus, if we assume that the "agent's ends" (per Oxford) are to do what makes the agent happy and to give the agent his own sense of reality then of course, we are in furious agreement. But if I felt that my neighbour's child was a devilish little thing who screams too loud and my life and reality would be better off without it, this would make it rational for me to strangle the poor kid. A schozophrenic who believes that TV stations are (through TV sets) keeping him under survaillance would be acting rationally by throwing out of the window all the TV sets in the mental hospital. I can't dispute any of this.

    But in the context of wanting to know the TRUTH, the fact that an incorrect belief can serve some purpose is of little assistance. It isn't rational in that context. I've covered that in the "purpose" section of my OP. There, I compared this position with a cancer patient believing that he's healthy because it makes him feel better. Sure, it might help him cope. But he'll spend the rest of his days living in a fairytale.
    Last edited by Allocutus; February 10th, 2009 at 01:53 AM.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by chadn737
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    I find your argument here a tad disappointing. You focus on Evolution (giving only the briefest accounts), barely mention the concept of design at a cosmological scale, and are completely silent on the issue of how life began.
    I have to admit that it is not my goal in the present thread to give an exhaustive course on evolution. I gave the basics of it and I believe that the basics are sufficient.

    The argument from design relies on complexity, and complexity is something that evolution explains. And it explains it precisely through the process of natural selection based on mutation.

    Since complexity is explained via natural means, it is superfluous to suggest any supernatural reason for it, particularly one for which no independent reliable evidence exists in the first place.

    The entire point is that science has an explanation and that this explanation (although not fully complete; no many things ever are) is natural and consistent with evidence.

    For me, Evolution is a non-issue and and if I touch upon it, it will only be to correct your mistakes, such as equating Natural Selection to Evolution. Natural Selection and Evolution are not synonymous. To equate the two, is too uphold an outdated strict Darwinism viewpoint that held that Natural Selection is the only force of Evolution. Under the Modern Synthesis, we now recognize the power of Genetic Drift in Evolution.
    Thank you for that. Please note, however, that the argument from design relies on complexity. The complexity of life is explained by natural selection and not by genetic drift. Genetic drift is a completely random process and may be used to directly explain biodiversity; not complexity.


    On the issue of design in the laws and constants of the Universe, which I will refer to as "Cosmological Design," your overly brief treatment of the issue does not do it justice.
    This is because I don't consider this to be a separate argument at all. Indeed, it isn't an argument based on complexity but, in my submission, is much closer to the cosmological argument. Laws and constants of the Universe are part of the Universe. We only know them as they exist within the Universe and there's nothing at all to suggest to us that they existed or were the same prior to the Universe or, indeed, in the very earliest stages of the Universe. We haven't been able to gather any empirical data about how universes are born and we are unlikely to ever have that opportunity. Thus, either a Universe must have a cause or it doesn't need a cause. If it must have a cause then it's logical to say that something must have caused it. But this is where it stops. The next step of suggesting that this something is an omnipotent and sentient deity is unsupported and appears to come into the equation from nothing but pure imagination. There are those who speculate that the Universe has engaged in an infinite cycle of Big Bangs and Big Crunches. There are others who suggest that the Universe may have always existed or that it may have arisen from another type of Universe. Since time is a factor of space, it is plausible to suggest that the Universe has always existed as there was never a time without the Universe. To suggest a sentient and very very powerful being as the culprit behind it all is pure speculation that arises from our own ignorance of the facts.

    In addition, it contradicts the very premises for the arguments from design and the cosmological argument. It's a contradiction to say that things are so complex that they have to have a creator who was even more complex because this means we are accepting that something even more complex could exist without a creator in the first place. Equally it's a contradiction to say that everything has to have a cause and therefore there must be an entity without a cause who has caused everything else.

    The likely rebuttal to what I said is of course that God is special in that He's the ONLY THING that doesn't need a cause or that doesn't need a more complex creator (I'm not giving credit; I just think I may know what to expect based on personal experience). But that's a self-serving special pleading. To engage in this line is to define an entity in such a way as to inflate an argument for its existence where no evidence of such existence exists in the first place. It would also include making assumptions about universes that we have no evidence in support of. No one knows how universes are born and whether they need causes and whether they need complex sentient creators.

    To give an example, I have once lost a DVD. I had it at home and then one day I came back and it wasn't there. All security windows and doors were locked. I have no explanation for the apparent disappearance of the DVD (this is like formation of the Universe; a unique and unexplained event). I would then argue that I couldn't have misplaced it myself because I don't misplace things. This would be based on empirical experience that I've never misplaced anything before (this is like saying the universe had to have a cause). I would then say that a spirit called "Drofxo" must exist; such that enters houses through bathroom fan vents and steals DVDs. He also loves icecream (this is like God being sentient; a superflous attribute for whatever it is that may have caused the Universe to exist). After all, why would we assume that there is a natural explanation for the apparent disappearance of my DVD if we can just "find" a supernatural one?


    First off, lets look at your primary argument against, that the unification of the various forces shows that everything was different in the early universe. That is a false argument. It is true that at one point in the early universe, the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces were unified (unification with gravity has not been worked out as of yet and yes I am aware of string theory), however, this is not equivalent to the laws and constants of nature being different. Something like Planck's constant is not different at this period in the Universe, because the forces are unified. You've put the cart before the horse. The forces are unified because of the laws of and constants of nature. The reason we know that at sufficiently early periods of the Universe that the forces were unified is because we assume that the very same laws and constants we know now, hold true back then. As a result, when one does the mathematics, you find that the electromagnetic, weak, and strong forces become unified.
    I do see your point. But the idea is that we regress back to the Planck Epoch using the laws of the universe as we know them (from subsequent times to the Planck Epoch). When we get to the Planck Epoch we say that (based on the abovementioned regression in time) the forces had to be unified. And this is where we stop. We simply say that we don't know anything beyond this point and that anything beyond this point is most likely unknowable. And that's the precise point I was seeking to demonstrate. We simply don't know the fine detail about the beginning of the Universe. But to escape from this to a sentient and very very powerful being is a huge leap that has no support whatsoever. To say that this is a remote possibility is fine, of course. Anything is. But to claim that it is rational to accept this as the basis for holding out that God's existence is a TRUTH and hence becoming a theist is an irrational step.



    So rather than being evidence against the early universe having different laws or constants, the unification of the forces is evidence for it.
    Again, my point was to illustrate that things become quite different when you get into the Planck Epoch and, what's more, can't be known beyond the Planck Epoch. But again, I get your point. And again, to base any assertion of absolute truth (or even of "more probable than not") based on assumptions about things that we can't possibly know about, is irrational. It is based on no evidence or reasoning but on pure guess and speculation.

    Furthermore, I would challenge that the idea that there has been a change in the constants (not the laws, because that would make everything unreliable and impossible for Science) is a minority view amongst physicists and one that does not have support. Whereas the physical evidence supports that these constants are indeed constant throughout the history of our universe, up until the the creation of the Universe in the Big Bang.
    Sure. My point was, however, that no evidence exists, nor can it exist, about the physical conditions and laws beyond the Planck Epoch and within the singularity. We can't know whether time existed. Further, we can't know whether universes need a cause. If they do, we can't know what causes them. Any ideas we can have about these phenomena are pure speculation and are not enough to base a positive assertion of TRUTH on. Therefore, to say that "God isn't beyond the realm of possibility" is perfectly acceptable as simply one of those speculated possibilities. But to say that this is a rational reason to believe that God exists is simply an appeal to ignorance.

    Finally, you do not mention the problem of life. How did it begin? Why did it begin in the first place? This is problematic and an issue distinct from Evolution. From what I know of life at the molecular level, it simply does not seem likely or possible for life to simply arise spontaneously through undirected chemical processes.
    Scientists generally accept abiogensesis although they do not have much consensus about exactly how the first self-replicating molecule has formed. Miller started this with his laboratory experiments where he was able to generate aminoacids (see Wiki for example). However, it has been suggested that Miller's experiment was flawed as it didn't rely on conditions that were possible on Earth at the time. Many competing theories propose that the correctly composed primordial soup was formed by the fallout of cometary dust through the atmosphere (Armand Delsemme, “The Primordial Earth”, Our Cosmic Origins , Cambridge University Press 1998 at p 158). Indeed, organic molecules are quite abundant in space (ibid).

    Of course, given the lack of positive traces of that first event (this is way too long ago to even consider fossil evidence), it is very difficult to arrive at a definitive answer. But once again, the incompleteness of positive evidence for one proposition is not evidence for another proposition. That would be a classic argument from ignorance.
    And that applies even when the two theories are such that the incorrectness of one necessiates the other (which is not the case here). Thus, the most we can say is "we're not sure how exactly the first self-replicating molecule came into existence and there are competing theories on this and it may well be that there were some things at play that we're not even aware of." But we can't go ahead and say "this was the doing of a sentient and very very powerful God". That would be an irrational (and possibly not very honest) exploitation of a gap in current knowledge.
    Last edited by Allocutus; February 10th, 2009 at 02:26 AM.
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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Originally Posted by Allocutus
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    I agree with that. But the argument I was countering was that "there must be a sentient God because the Universe is so well organised". That argument is one that goes to the very organised nature of complex systems and not merely to the existence of some laws that appear to affect objects and energy in a consistent manner.
    Understood, but please understand that I'm not suggesting that the organization or existence of such natural laws is a "mere" explanation for physical complexity, but rather that the existence of said laws only ADDS to the argument of intelligent design. Not only must we look at the complexity of physical reality, but also the complexity (or simplicity, if you'd rather) of physical laws.

    If you want to posit that there must be a God because laws of nature exist then please feel free to do so. This will, of course, add a new argument to the list of "reasons for belief". I have stipulated that people are quite welcome to do that in this thread because, clearly, such arguments will be relevant to the subject matter.
    I'm not saying there must be because of physical laws; just that physical laws are usually omitted from such discussions, when to me, as I stated, they ADD to the argument for ID.

    Any leap from the existence of laws of nature to the existence a sentient and very very powerful entity is pure appeal to ignorance. The fact that we don't know (or may not know) what has given rise to those laws in no way supports the existence of any sentient being that predates the universe itself.
    The same can be said for ANY of the possible rational answers for the origins of the universe. That was my point. It's equally a leap to state that some other "universe" (or multiples of such) somehow created our own, or that the universe, contrary to current scientific and logical understanding, is actually infinite.

    The furthest you can go, if you are to act rationally, is to say that "there must be something that gives rise to the laws of nature and the question is worth investigation". You could also argue that this "something" must have certain characteristics. But there appears to be no logical reason whatsoever why sentience and omnipotence need to be part of those characteristics at all. Thus, by making such an assumption, you are making assumptions that simply don't flow from available evidence and are unsupported or unsupportable.
    I disagree. If you follow the line of reasoning that looks at the complexity of the universe and posit that some sort of entity is responsible for its creation, then you are inherently assuming this entity is complex enough, and intelligent enough, to create such a thing by definition. Omnipotence as you defined it here means outside of what our current understanding is....thus, even entertaining the definition of some kind of entity assumes this property.

    But the only question you can ask in that case is "where do natural laws come from?". This is not the classic argument from design. The argument from design relies (at least as addressed by me in the OP) relies on the very complexity of living things.
    Ok...but should we not also consider the very laws that govern such living things when considering this argument? Whether it's traditional or not, I'm adding on to it.

    The point here was NOT for me to give an exhaustive lecture on evolution or chemistry or sub-atomic physics. Rather, it was to simply say that perfectly natural explanations exist and are widely accepted by mainstream science
    I understand, I'm just elaborating on that type of thinking. I have no qualms with science's mainstream explanations for such things, because I see no reason that this must contradict an idea of an ID. The key thing to me here is, science may explain HOW such things might come about given certain natural laws, but it doesn't address at all why or how those physical laws are structured in such a fashion to even allow this. Again, if we are to assume that all of life is a random chance, then why should we not also compound this chance by the formation of such laws?

    Now, since these explanations do exist and are given credit by mainstream science (people "in the know"), it makes no sense to appeal to the argument from design without first considering (and rejecting) the natural and scientifically accepted explanations.
    Why should we reject these explanations? Why must this false dilemma exist? Why can an ID not design natural law, and the physical odds, in such a fashion as to promote life as we know it? There is no conflict between the two. Indeed, arguing that chance alone governed these things, in my mind, is the contradiction here.

    To say "we don't understand the detail of some RNA-related process therefore this is support that an sentient God exists" is simply not rational. One doesn't flow from the other. The most you can conclude is that we don't have an exhaustive understanding of the phenomena in question.
    Right. But again, it's not just from this evidence that we come to such conclusions. After all, this is a logical and philosophical discussion, not just a scientific one. So as I've stated elsewhere, there are really only a few rational answers to the origins of the universe. One by nature DOES leap beyond the limits of space/time and our understanding. To claim that it is less acceptable of an answer because by its very definition it extends beyond such things is a category error.

    And by your same logic, you must also toss out any other possibilities, or conclude they are equally a leap in logic.

    You're comparing years with dollars? I'm sorry but I don't follow this.
    It's an illustration to demonstrate how little, conceptually, 13.5 billion years is quantitatively. The argument of how tiny our fraction of existence is when compared to the overall age of the universe is traditionally used to support the idea of random chance allowing for sentient life. My goal here was to illustrate that 13.5 is a ridiculously small amount of time for such a thing to happen.

    But, going to your main point above, scientists don't appear to have a problem with the fact that we've "only" had 13.5 billion years. You know, that's an awfully long time. People have WITNESSED evolution. Experiments have been conducted on small organisms (eg microorganisms) to show that they do evolve. Bacteria have been known to become immune to antibiotics.
    Becoming immune to an antibiotic is like trying to state that developing callouses from playing guitar is effectively the same as evolving from one organism to the other. The degrees of complexity and time involved are obviously quite different.

    Again, to say "13.5 billion years may or may not have been long enough for us to evolve from a singularity and therefore this is rational support of God's existence" is fallacious. It's an appeal to ignorance. The most you can conclude from this is this: "Scientists seem confident that evolution is a true phenomenon and that we result from it.
    Firstly, as I stated before, NO explanation escapes being an appeal to ignorance, as we clearly do not have an answer for the universe's origins. Each possibility is a leap, and each possibility carries with it logical/scientific contradictions. Secondly, we're confusing here the origins of the universe for the origins of biologically complex, sentient life. Evolution is a wonderful thing, but it's hardly a cosmological argument whatsoever. It's not just a question of where did we, as complex organisms, come from, but where did all matter come from, and where did the laws that govern such matter come from. It's dizzyingly more complex than simply pointing at evolution and claiming that because we are reasonably sure how we evolved, that the larger issue at hand should be ignored. I know this is extending beyond the traditional ID argument (possibly), but the complexity we must consider should hardly be confined solely to biological complexity.

    I'm going to skip the next few paragraphs you wrote because I think we're probably on the same page that I'm not solely addressing evolution here.

    I will conclude this by saying that, even if there were no evidence at all for evolution (and there is strong scientific evidence), it would nevertheless still be irrational to use the argument from intelligent design to rationalise theistic belief. If you are prepared to accept that an omnipotent and omniscient deity exists and has always existed, it is equally plausible to believe that humans as they are have always existed. You are accepting that eternal existence of sentient beings is possible.
    I disagree, for obvious reasons. By definition, an omnipotent being could always exist, whereas we obviously know we cannot. Thus they are hardly in the same realm of plausibility. This is another category error.

    That being the case, it is simpler and requires less assumptions to simply conclude that humans as sentient beings have always existed than it is to introduce into the equation yet another, even more complex and more potent and more intelligent being that transcends all time.
    I've addressed the category error above; by definition, this being lies outside of time and physical laws. So by definition, you can't cite this as a violation of Occam's Razor. The God answer is about as simple as it gets by definition. It's effectively the one possible answer you don't wish to consider because it seems so unlikely, and yet there it sits as a glaring possibility.

    But this doesn't attack the problem. It is irrational to posit the existence of something more complex than the universe itself in order to explain the existence of complex things within the universe based on the assumption that those things are too complex to exist without the existence of the more complex thing.
    Again, by definition, this doesn't apply (see above).

    I disagree that rebuking a definition that is self-serving is a circular approach. Please support.
    Rebuking a definition on the grounds that it defines precisely what it defines is circular. If you postulate that God is beyond the limits of space time, it doesn't make much sense to rebuke such a definition of God because he exists beyond the limits of space and time. Again, this is like postulating that extra dimensions exist because they solve many physics and mathematical models, but then declaring that we cannot consider them because they're extra dimensional in nature.

    That's correct. Positing any suggestion for which there is no specific evidence is an argument from ignorance.
    I know I'm nitpicking, but this contradicts what you say following:

    It's not an argument from ignorance to say "If the universe is such a thing that it needs a cause to exist then something must have caused it to exist". It's not an argument from ignorance for saying "one possibility is that the universe has always existed and that there was no time at all outside the universe". It's not an argument from ignorance to say "it's possible that the universe was an offshoot of an earlier universe".
    These are suggestions, after all, whether you emphasis the "if" or not.

    But obviously the point you're trying to make here is that theists claim to KNOW that God exists, whereas scientific theories at least provide the leeway to accept they could be wrong, or that we truly don't know. However, this is an entirely different argument than your OP, since your OP isn't dealing with theists' claims of absolute knowledge, but whether the possibility or belief in God is rational.

    No, it is not. I said it MIGHT be the case. I said we don't KNOW what the case was. I said we CAN'T ASSUME that the universe was the same and subject to the same laws at the time and from that ASSUMPTION draw a POSITIVE CONCLUSION that an omnipotent and sentient God EXISTS.
    Not quite, because again, you're walking the line between "is a belief rational", and "is a belief enough to claim to know." A theist such as myself can quite easily state that while we certainly don't KNOW if God exists, we believe God does.

    And I'm not relying on EVERYTHING going "out the window". I'm relying on the fact that we can't ASSUME that the universe is such a thing that it requires causation in order for it to exist. We don't have any data about how universes as a whole behave and the ONLY REASON why we ever insist that things need a cause is because the things we have observed have required a cause. But we have never observed any UNIVERSES (as a whole). We simply don't know.
    The problem with this is, it bears a remarkable similarity to the arguments that theists have often made regarding the existence of God: since you can't definitively prove that God doesn't exist, you can't rule the possibility out, all evidence to the contrary. The "only reason", as you claim, that we insist things must have causal relations is because of empirical evidence. This type of observation in the physical world is virtually universal. So I must maintain that if you are making an argument that what is universally held to be true can be discarded, then you must also allow for this in essentially any situation (including, of course, God). Are you comfortable doing so?

    And since we don't know that universes require a cause, we can't even go as far as to say that something MUST HAVE caused the Universe to exist.
    Then again, we can't really claim to know anything. If you discard empirical, every day truths, then you can't really rely upon science to either answer questions or dispute God's existence whatsoever. After all, if you're allowing a special "we don't know" clause whereby potentially any scientific law could be "different", then you can't use scientific knowledge as we know it as evidence either for or against God.

    One can't exclude the possibility that this was a sentient and omnipotent God as a possible explanation for this." That's fine. But that's not a theist position. Theists are those who believe that God exists, not who merely consider that His existence can't be excluded as a possible explanation for that which we don't know.
    What difference does it truly make? It's a belief, after all. If we accept that God is a potential answer to such questions, then the belief itself is not inherently irrational, no more than if you were to state that you personally believe "the universe has always existed" is the best answer. If you're arguing that said belief is unsupported by enough evidence, and thus is not rational, I'd agree solely along such rigid lines. But I don't think that's your position here. Rationally speaking, an ID answers the question just as well (or poorly) as any of the other answers. So I fail to see how the act of choosing that answer is irrational, unless your point is that by choosing ANY of the answers, you're acting irrationally. Which is why, I suppose, it's called a belief.

    I never said that considering an ID is a stretch. What I said was that the argument from ID is irrational as a reason to change from atheist/no-position to theist. That's not the same as leaving ID as something in the realm of possibility.
    This is entirely subjective. What may not be enough of a reason to change for you may very well be enough for someone else.

    As I said above, IF the Universe hasn't always existed and IF it's a thing that needs a cause to exist then something must have caused it to exist. We don't know what that "something" is. It could be another universe, it could be any thing outside the universe itself. All we know is that it must be something that we don't know about and probably won't be able to know about. There's a huge leap between this and claiming the positive existence of a sentient and omnipotent God. The stretch is not in saying that God isn't impossible. The stretch is in positing that God actually EXISTS.
    By definition, as I stated above, it makes sense to define God as some type of powerful, sentient being. I don't mean a grandfather type walking around with human emotions, but sentient along literal lines. So I don't see the huge leap that you do. Secondly, the stretch that claims God exists is nothing more than picking one of several possible answers and going with it. If you follow this logic, then picking ANY of the answers is likewise a stretch. This seems to be belaboring the fact that because something is a belief, it must be irrational. I disagree with that notion.

    I'm not willing to forego conventional logic or physical law. Logic remains the same as in any other situation.
    Not really. It's logical to state that things have a cause (random or not). We know this is logical because of what we empirically have observed. We know it's illogical to see a dent in your car door and assume that the dent spontaneously happened with no cause whatsoever. However, by your argument, we don't really know this. Maybe cars can spontaneously self-dent.

    As for physical laws, I have to say I don't understand your question. Are you positing that physical laws have to be the same in our universe as outside/before our universe? It would certainly seem that way.
    No, I'm stating that the application of physical laws is considered a universal, at least within our universe. If you open the door to saying that "outside" our universe things can be entirely different, then again, you can't very well argue that the concept of an ID is irrational solely based upon seeming contradictions to those same laws, or even improbable because empirically we can't identify an ID, no more than we can identify what you mean by "outside" the universe.

    What's more, our understanding of them stems from our observation of how things behave. We say that things attract each other by gravity because everything we've observed has gravity. But if the only thing we had observed were hippos, would we be able to say that everything attracts each other by gravity? I suggest we wouldn't. If the only thing we had observed was liquids and we noticed that they have no set shape, would we be able to conclude that matter generally has no set shape? No, we couldn't. You have to observe each CLASS of things and only then can you make any inductive conclusions such that can give rise to the formulation of a physical law.
    [/quote]

    There's no reason at all to assume that our observations of physical objects around us extend to the behaviour of whole universes.
    Nor is there any reason at all to assume that multiple universes exist; after all, isn't the universe "everything"? Why would we even entertain the notion that multiple everythings exist, and furthermore that these differing "everythings" vary in physical law?

    Hence, any statement that the universe had to have a cause or that it hasn't always existed, is in itself a big assumption. Again, refer to my above formulation of God as a mere possibility that can't be excluded.
    I agree that ultimately it is an assumption, but I'd state that it's an entirely more rational one than the alternative. Empirically everything would imply this and there really is no reason to assume the universe or "everything" is somehow exempt.

    I can't deny that possibility. Equally, I can't deny the possibility that the world indeed is an ocean on the back of a giant trout. And not denying them is rational. But to choose any single one and (for no apparent reason) posit it as the absolute truth is not.
    Again, are we discussing claims for absolute truth or whether beliefs are rational? And I don't believe the reasons are not apparent.

    I assume you mean "if you're willing to forego science and our understanding". But I'm not foregoing science. Science doesn't claim that the Universe had to have a cause or that it hasn't always existed. To say that either is true is an assumption based on no evidence.
    There is plenty of evidence. Entropy suggests that the universe is not infinite, and if it's not infinite, then it wasn't "always there". Furthermore, everything we witness empirically points to causation (regardless of intent), and no reason I've seen yet gives a rationale as to why the universe should not follow such standards.

    However, any additional assumptions (such that this "something" was sentient or omnipotent or omniscient) are completely unnecessary in this context. They seem to come from nowhere and are unsupported.
    It's by definition. Please see above.


    Again you are comparing years to dollars. Why don't you then use Days for the timespan and Cents for the financial side of it? The comparison will look remarkably different.
    Not really following you, since the fractions remain the same no matter what you use.

    Random chance didn't bring about those things that you refer to. Billions of random changes did. The process is called Natural Selection and is accepted by most (by far!) scientists. It has been tested in laboratory conditions and it has been witnessed by scientists in natural conditions.
    I'm not arguing against natural selection. I'm arguing that natural selection cannot be used as a cosmological argument. Don't just examine natural selection....examine all the microbiological necessities from which it springs, examine all the interactions of nonbiological matter itself to even support biology, examine all the physical interactions that put such matter into play, and finally examine all the natural and physical laws and how they might have "randomly" occurred or come about to inform matter. The problem of random chance is multiplied an umpteenth time.



    But to go from your surprise at a certain (scientifically accepted) propositions to any acceptance of the existence of a sentient and omnipotent God is nothing more than the same fallacy: appeal to personal incredulity. It's not a rational approach.
    But that's not what I'm arguing (please see the previous point). I'm considering the totality of everything that is at play in the physical universe to allow for such an extraordinary event to occur. Taken as a whole, it DOES seem ridiculously absurd to suggest that chance is responsible.

    I would like you to support your claim that random chance bringing together sentient life is STATISTICALLY IMPROBABLE.
    Fair enough, I can't. But as I said, I find it to be ridiculously improbable. Can you provide evidence that it IS probable by chance alone?

    An action is rational if it provides likely means to an agent's ends ( Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy. The "ends" here are to arrive at a belief system (in the general sense) that is as correct as possibly can be. And beliefs are rational if they are likely to be true ([i] Ibid [/]).
    Woooh there, says who? You? Why are you declaring what "the ends" must be? Isn't the "agent" in question the determining factor here? The agent here is, of course, the believer, so if the belief meets the believer's needs, then it's rational, which is essentially what I stated before.

    In this sense, selecting a belief system by guessing or choosing at random (or for reasons not related to the probability of its truth) any particular theory that is no more probably to be true than any number of other theories is not rational because it doesn't provide you with a means that's likely to arrive at a belief system that is likely to be true.
    Actually, if you randomly choose, then statistically ANY choice you make has the same chance of being the true one, since they're all equally probable. In fact, if they're all equally probable, then there exists no "measure of probability" by which you can make a more informed decision.

    The Big Bang is a rational theory because it is supported by scientific evidence; ie expanding universe, observations made by the Hubble Telescope, and many calculations (starting with Einstein).

    The theory of evolution is rational because it is supported by very coherent logic (in the simplest form; traits less conducive of survival are less likely to be passed on through heredity), evidence (fossil records, genetic similarities that correspond to those records, observation of currently living species - eg, bacteria evolving to be immune from certain antibiotics, laboratory experiments).
    Evolution is not a cosmological argument. The Big Bang itself suggest that the universe had a beginning. So while these may be rational, these don't make the possibility of God any less rational.

    To claim them as TRUTH (to the point of asserting them as proabable or even KNOWN TO BE TRUE) is unsupported and irrational in the sense given above.
    Was this your OP's argument?

    I'd agree with it, in the same sense as a child who is told to believe that the Toothfairy (and I'm not being festicious here) collects his tooth at night and leaves behind money is acting rationally within his worldview. But that doesn't assist us and it's certainly not coherent within the meaning of rationality as I have posted above (and as supported by Oxford).
    Gotta disagree with you here, mostly because you're dictating what "the ends" must be (as close to the truth as possible). The definition itself is inherently subjective. Note that I'm not trying to use this entirely as a literal cop out....I do believe that a belief in God is supported by rationality, as I have explained before. It's a rational possibility to the cosmological question, and it's no more irrational than any other answer out there. Now consider the subjective reasons for believing, and the reasons for believing are increased beyond a purely logical fashion.
    "Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves." --Bill Hicks

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    Re: Is there a rational reason to believe?


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    Understood, but please understand that I'm not suggesting that the organization or existence of such natural laws is a "mere" explanation for physical complexity, but rather that the existence of said laws only ADDS to the argument of intelligent design. Not only must we look at the complexity of physical reality, but also the complexity (or simplicity, if you'd rather) of physical laws.
    Doesn't matter. Same problem applies. The argument asserts that things (including laws) are too complex to exist without a more complex creator who doesn't himself have a creator despite the fact that he's even more complex. It's contradiction in reasoning.


    The same can be said for ANY of the possible rational answers for the origins of the universe. That was my point. It's equally a leap to state that some other "universe" (or multiples of such) somehow created our own, or that the universe, contrary to current scientific and logical understanding, is actually infinite.
    Sure. And if I were to say that the "other universe" is not beyond possibility then I would be acting completely reasonably. But if I claimed that "there WAS another Universe which gave rise to this Universe regardless of the fact that no evidence exists for it that would make it more probable than any other options" then I'd be engaging in the same irrational line of thinking. I'm not claiming that God is impossible. I've made that quite clear. But theism is about BELIEF in God's existence. This goes way beyond simply accepting that God's existence can't be excluded as a possibility.



    I disagree. If you follow the line of reasoning that looks at the complexity of the universe and posit that some sort of entity is responsible for its creation, then you are inherently assuming this entity is complex enough, and intelligent enough, to create such a thing by definition. Omnipotence as you defined it here means outside of what our current understanding is....thus, even entertaining the definition of some kind of entity assumes this property.
    Why? A retarded mother can give birth (and therefore CAUSE to exist) a genius child. I didn't say "CREATE". I said "cause".



    Ok...but should we not also consider the very laws that govern such living things when considering this argument? Whether it's traditional or not, I'm adding on to it.
    But the laws of nature are part of the universe. Therefore, whatever gave rise to the universe also gave rise to the laws of nature. Laws of nature aren't sentient things. They are just ways in which matter and energy tend to behave. There's no reason in the world why they have to owe their existence to a sentient being.


    I understand, I'm just elaborating on that type of thinking. I have no qualms with science's mainstream explanations for such things, because I see no reason that this must contradict an idea of an ID. The key thing to me here is, science may explain HOW such things might come about given certain natural laws, but it doesn't address at all why or how those physical laws are structured in such a fashion to even allow this. Again, if we are to assume that all of life is a random chance, then why should we not also compound this chance by the formation of such laws?
    Sure but the fact that we don't know how they have come about is not at all a rational reason to attribute this to a sentient and omnipotent deity. Appeal to ignorance.

    Your line of argument is comparable to all those who, over thousands of years, claimed that the Sun is a god or that disease is demonic possession. And that's ok. It's very natural for humans to invoke the supernatural whenever they don't understand something. There are actually anthropological explanations for that, which attribute this tendency to how we have evolved.

    When I was a child I noticed that the Moon follows me around! I decided that the Moon has a special liking towards me.

    I also found a way of supernaturally making the hot water tap get from cold water to hot water (the initial warmup period) faster by simply moving my hands into and out of the water flow.

    There are so many examples of humans in the past attributing ANYTHING they didn't understand to the supernatural that we have to take extraordinary care with that (and this is not the first time I said this). And even now, when so many of those things have been explained away by perfectly natural means, some people still cling to those few that haven't and try to use them as reasons to believe in the supernatural. But all those examples are perfect evidence that our nature is to fall into this error. This is why scientists and philosophers have formulated the principle that lack of evidence for a proposition is not evidence for any other proposition. And certainly the mere existence of something unique (like the universe) can't be evidence for the way it has come about. It's UNIQUE and we have nothing to compare it to in terms of empirical experience.




    Why should we reject these explanations? Why must this false dilemma exist? Why can an ID not design natural law, and the physical odds, in such a fashion as to promote life as we know it? There is no conflict between the two. Indeed, arguing that chance alone governed these things, in my mind, is the contradiction here.
    Because natural laws are part of the universe by definition.

    And of course I was addressing the classical argument from design which opposes itself to evolution.


    Right. But again, it's not just from this evidence that we come to such conclusions. After all, this is a logical and philosophical discussion, not just a scientific one. So as I've stated elsewhere, there are really only a few rational answers to the origins of the universe. One by nature DOES leap beyond the limits of space/time and our understanding. To claim that it is less acceptable of an answer because by its very definition it extends beyond such things is a category error.
    Of course. But there is no evidence for it. And we are discussing evidence. We are discussing the argument from design as a rational argument for becoming a theist. It's not irrational to say that God is one of the many possibilities. But it's irrational to claim his existence as a TRUTH. Just like it would be to claim any other of those possibilities as a TRUTH.



    And by your same logic, you must also toss out any other possibilities, or conclude they are equally a leap in logic.
    Yes, I have agreed that to claim that any particular explanation that is on par with God in terms of evidence deserves the same treatment individually. You can't claim something to be a TRUTH if it's nothing but a distant possibility.


    It's an illustration to demonstrate how little, conceptually, 13.5 billion years is quantitatively. The argument of how tiny our fraction of existence is when compared to the overall age of the universe is traditionally used to support the idea of random chance allowing for sentient life. My goal here was to illustrate that 13.5 is a ridiculously small amount of time for such a thing to happen.
    Sure but it's an inherently bad comparison because you're comparing money to time.

    1. You'd agree that the laws of nature didn't need much time to form.
    2. You'd agree that the planetary system as such didn't need anymore time to form than is believed by science. Right?
    3. It's the generation of life and evolution that, I suggest, you take real issue with. But many scientists believe that the step from aminoacids and a bacteria can take as little as 100 million years. I've cited this in my previous post.
    4. The number of years is irrelevant because the number of mutation depends on the size of a particular population and on its speed of reproduction. Bacteria double every 20 minutes. And there are zillions of them. Cats do much less.
    5. In any event, this is an appeal to own incredulity.



    Becoming immune to an antibiotic is like trying to state that developing callouses from playing guitar is effectively the same as evolving from one organism to the other. The degrees of complexity and time involved are obviously quite different.
    No, it is not. I'm talking about bacteria actually EVOLVING through natural selection in order to become immune as a POPULATION.

    As for degrees of compexity, we have the fossil record. We also have genetic data on many creatures. It all corroborates the theory of evolution. The theory is simply beyond doubt to all serious scientists. Sure, it does seem mind-boggling. But doesn't the existence of an everlasting and all-powerful God?



    Firstly, as I stated before, NO explanation escapes being an appeal to ignorance, as we clearly do not have an answer for the universe's origins.
    And this is exactly why it's an appeal to ignorance. Lack of evidence for a theory is not evidence for a theory. Lack of explanation is not evidence for an explanation.


    Each possibility is a leap, and each possibility carries with it logical/scientific contradictions.
    Sure. And, while I might go around saying that the "Bang/Crunch/Bang" theory is the coolest of them all and I'd love it to be true, you won't hear me say "I believe it is true, despite the fact that it's only as probable as any other of the many theories". Theism is a BELIEF in the existence of God. This goes beyond saying "God is possible". It's irrational to base such a belief simply on the fact that we have no evidence for how the universe has begun.



    Secondly, we're confusing here the origins of the universe for the origins of biologically complex, sentient life. Evolution is a wonderful thing, but it's hardly a cosmological argument whatsoever.
    But you have said in your first post in this thread that you want to argue about the argument form design and not the cosmological argument.



    It's not just a question of where did we, as complex organisms, come from, but where did all matter come from, and where did the laws that govern such matter come from. It's dizzyingly more complex than simply pointing at evolution and claiming that because we are reasonably sure how we evolved, that the larger issue at hand should be ignored. I know this is extending beyond the traditional ID argument (possibly), but the complexity we must consider should hardly be confined solely to biological complexity.
    Sure, but there is no complexity. There are some forces and some laws and things and forces tend to obey those laws. The laws are part of the universe and were either caused together with it or caused themselves or were caused by other laws or they have always existed or something else has caused them. The answer is we do not know. And not knowing is not evidence for a sentient God.

    But the real problem with the argument from complexity is its inherent contradiction. It relies on a more complex entity to justify the exitence of less complex things based on the assumption that a complex thing needs a more complex creator. It's self serving because it offers no creator for the creator. We either end up with infinite regression of increasingly complex creators or with special pleadings based on a self-serving definition.


    I disagree, for obvious reasons. By definition, an omnipotent being could always exist, whereas we obviously know we cannot. Thus they are hardly in the same realm of plausibility. This is another category error.
    Firstly, we have ourselves created the definition. There is no evidence at all that such a thing exist or has ever existed. Creating a concept and defining it has no bearing on the question of the actual existence of the thing.

    Secondly, of course we could always exist. If you disregard scientific evidence that the universe hasn't always existed and the the Earth hasn't always existed and the humans haven't always existed then you have nothing left to support your position that we haven't always existed.


    I've addressed the category error above; by definition, this being lies outside of time and physical laws. So by definition, you can't cite this as a violation of Occam's Razor. The God answer is about as simple as it gets by definition. It's effectively the one possible answer you don't wish to consider because it seems so unlikely, and yet there it sits as a glaring possibility.
    Yes, but it's theists who have defined God in this way (because, suspect, they needed to fill in a number of voids in knowledge)

    There's nothing stopping me from defining the Universe to have always existed, is there? And once I do, I can claim that it has always existed, if your reasoning is to be used.

    Of course you're going to say that my definition is made up. But so is God's, unless He actually exists. And you can't claim that He does unless you first establish that the argument we're discussing (argument from ID) actually supports His existence to the point where a claim for it can be rationally made to the exclusion of the other possible claims. Thus, for you to differentiate between my definition of the Universe (as always existing) and yours for God (as always existing) would be circular.


    Rebuking a definition on the grounds that it defines precisely what it defines is circular. If you postulate that God is beyond the limits of space time, it doesn't make much sense to rebuke such a definition of God because he exists beyond the limits of space and time. Again, this is like postulating that extra dimensions exist because they solve many physics and mathematical models, but then declaring that we cannot consider them because they're extra dimensional in nature.
    But those physical and mathematical models are based on evidence and logic. God's existence, in the context of the argument from design, is based on nothing but our own ignorance.

    I reject the definition because it's self-serving and unsupported. Let me elaborate by posing another possibility, also supernatural.

    The Universe was brought into existence by an eternal entity who is non-sentient and non-omnipotent. The entity has always been there (by definition) and its very nature was such that it had to create the laws of nature.

    As you can see, the qualities of being sentient and omnipotent are not at all necessary, even for a supernatural explanation. The only reason why sentience was originally supported by the argument from design was that WE are sentient. But that has been dealt with by the theory of evolution. We know that animals get more and more intelligent as they get more complex. We know that dogs behave in a way that would suggest they have some degree of sentience. We know that apes appear to have even more. It shows from their behaviour and animal behaviouralists are in consensus about this! If we accept that we have evolved (and there's evidence for it, as opposed to evidence for God) then this complexity is no longer an aspect of whatever remains of the argument from design. We are left with laws of nature. And that's fine. Except there's no longer any need to suppose that whatever gave rise to those laws of nature had to be sentient. So why assert something more complex than is necessary? It wouldn't make any sense. It would be like scientists saying that there is Dark Matter (deduction) AND it sings Yankee Doodle (unnecessary addition).

    So what are we left with? We're left with 2 possible supernatural entities. One is omnipotent and sentient, even though there's no need for it. The other one is neither. It's just capable of creating the laws of nature. Each is equally probable.

    But if that's the case, then we could just as easily say that the laws of nature are "supernatural" and therefore have always existed for no apparent reason. After all, there is little difference between that and a non-sentient non-omnipotent entity who can only create the laws of nature.

    I have just defined an entity that fits our purposes and is less complex.

    Of course, my definition was self-serving. So is yours.



    These are suggestions, after all, whether you emphasis the "if" or not.
    NO. To say "If the universe had to be caused then it must have had a cause" is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to saying "The universe had to be caused and here's God".

    The first is perfectly acceptable because it relies on a certain assumption and the conclusion is only asserted if that assumption is true. The statement doesn't assert that the assumption is true.

    The second actually asserts truth.



    But obviously the point you're trying to make here is that theists claim to KNOW that God exists, whereas scientific theories at least provide the leeway to accept they could be wrong, or that we truly don't know. However, this is an entirely different argument than your OP, since your OP isn't dealing with theists' claims of absolute knowledge, but whether the possibility or belief in God is rational.
    I think you have misunderstood the OP. I defined "theist" as someone who believes in God. This by definition means that a theist assersts that "God is true" or at least "most probably true". That's part of the nature of theist belief in itself. A person who says "God couldn't be excluded as possibly existing in some shape or form" is not a theist by the OP's definition or, indeed, by any definition.


    Not quite, because again, you're walking the line between "is a belief rational", and "is a belief enough to claim to know." A theist such as myself can quite easily state that while we certainly don't KNOW if God exists, we believe God does.
    Not at all.

    "Belief" in itself involves an assertion that it is true or that it is "most probably true". That's what belief means in the theist sense. Again, someone who says that God might possibly exist is not someone who believes in God.

    The issue in the OP is whether it's rational for a person who has no belief to attain a belief based on the reasons stipulated in the OP.



    The problem with this is, it bears a remarkable similarity to the arguments that theists have often made regarding the existence of God: since you can't definitively prove that God doesn't exist, you can't rule the possibility out, all evidence to the contrary. The "only reason", as you claim, that we insist things must have causal relations is because of empirical evidence.
    That's correct. So, the universe can't be judged based on our observation of things other than universes because the universe is COMPLETELY UNIQUE. God is also unique, that's true. Except there's not a shred of reliable evidence that God actually exists. And we can almost say with all certainty that we know the Universe exists. You see, unlike God, the Universe isn't just unique "by definition".



    This type of observation in the physical world is virtually universal. So I must maintain that if you are making an argument that what is universally held to be true can be discarded, then you must also allow for this in essentially any situation (including, of course, God). Are you comfortable doing so?
    Thrashee....
    Everything we claim know of the world is based on empirical observation. Sometimes when we observe things behave in a certain way a lot of times, we find it reasonable to draw a conclusion that they probably always behave in that way. Do you know that if you go to a particular (unexplored so far) location in the Sahara and try to drop a rock it won't fall upwards? No, you don't. Our experience shows that thing on Earth fall downwards. We've also observed many stars and planets and they always seem to attract each other and not repel each other. But that doesn't mean that gravity is universal. It just means that it's PROBABLY universal. But the only reason why we've even been able to conclude this is because we've seen all kinds of things and all kinds of CLASSES of things and they always attract each other.

    We are not allowed to make a general claim about gases based on the observation of liquids. I'm sure you'd agree with that. We can't say how animals behave by observing plants. Just like you claim that God is a different CATEGORY, the Universe is a different category. The only difference is that the former is the very thing whose existence is in issue while the latter is something we actually KNOW to exist. But the fact is, since the Universe is EVERYTHING (including time and space and the laws of nature), it is truly UNIQUE. You can't claim that laws that apply WITHIN the Universe also apply TO THE UNIVERSE ITSELF. They would have to be OUTSIDE the Universe if they were to apply in such a way. We just can't know how universes behave when they're being generated.



    Then again, we can't really claim to know anything. If you discard empirical, every day truths, then you can't really rely upon science to either answer questions or dispute God's existence whatsoever. After all, if you're allowing a special "we don't know" clause whereby potentially any scientific law could be "different", then you can't use scientific knowledge as we know it as evidence either for or against God.
    I'm not discarding everyday truths. I'm firmly asserting that those everyday truths apply to things that are governed by our laws of nature. But the Universe INCLUDES (by definition) those laws of nature. Therefore, it can't be said to be bound by them because they are part of it.


    What difference does it truly make? It's a belief, after all. If we accept that God is a potential answer to such questions, then the belief itself is not inherently irrational, no more than if you were to state that you personally believe "the universe has always existed" is the best answer.
    To say "I belive the universe has always existed" would be irrational if this proposition was one of many with equal evidence. It would be a random choice of belief, much like choosing Hinduism over Islam or the other way around.


    If you're arguing that said belief is unsupported by enough evidence, and thus is not rational, I'd agree solely along such rigid lines. But I don't think that's your position here. Rationally speaking, an ID answers the question just as well (or poorly) as any of the other answers. So I fail to see how the act of choosing that answer is irrational, unless your point is that by choosing ANY of the answers, you're acting irrationally. Which is why, I suppose, it's called a belief.
    We agree on that. Mind you, the Flying Spaghetti Monster would answer them just as well. As would ME being the creator of the Universe and just not remembering it.



    This is entirely subjective. What may not be enough of a reason to change for you may very well be enough for someone else.
    Not at all, unless you're going to appeal to consequence (which in itself is irrational unless there's a rational reason to believe in that consequence more than in any others)


    By definition, as I stated above, it makes sense to define God as some type of powerful, sentient being. I don't mean a grandfather type walking around with human emotions, but sentient along literal lines. So I don't see the huge leap that you do. Secondly, the stretch that claims God exists is nothing more than picking one of several possible answers and going with it. If you follow this logic, then picking ANY of the answers is likewise a stretch. This seems to be belaboring the fact that because something is a belief, it must be irrational. I disagree with that notion.
    I'm not taking issue with defining God as a sentient and powerful being.
    I'm taking an issue with insisting that the cause of the Universe (if the latter needs a cause) has to be a sentient and very very powerful being.



    Not really. It's logical to state that things have a cause (random or not). We know this is logical because of what we empirically have observed. We know it's illogical to see a dent in your car door and assume that the dent spontaneously happened with no cause whatsoever. However, by your argument, we don't really know this. Maybe cars can spontaneously self-dent.
    Doesn't apply to Universes for reasons stated above. Just like it doesn't apply to Gods. No empirical experience can ever apply to things that are UNIQUE in identity, class and attributes.


    No, I'm stating that the application of physical laws is considered a universal, at least within our universe. If you open the door to saying that "outside" our universe things can be entirely different, then again, you can't very well argue that the concept of an ID is irrational solely based upon seeming contradictions to those same laws, or even improbable because empirically we can't identify an ID, no more than we can identify what you mean by "outside" the universe.
    Well, the way our universe came into existence is not within our universe.
    And you're right in your second proposition. But the same would apply to any proposition I can assert. Flying Spaghetti Monster, ME being the Creator and not remembering it, YOU being the Creator, the Trout Theory...Anything.

    What's more, our understanding of them stems from our observation of how things behave. We say that things attract each other by gravity because everything we've observed has gravity.
    True. But the "everything" you refer to is (at the most) "everything BUT the Universe and God". And those two are truly unique. We just haven't observed any Universes at all. We can't know. Refer to my indepth argument (somewhere above).


    But if the only thing we had observed were hippos, would we be able to say that everything attracts each other by gravity? I suggest we wouldn't.
    True, we wouldn't. But the only thing we have observed ARE hippos. Well, in a way. Everything we have observed are NON-UNIVERSES and NON-GODS. And the Universe is truly unique and it includes WITHIN IT (by definition) all the laws of nature.




    If the only thing we had observed was liquids and we noticed that they have no set shape, would we be able to conclude that matter generally has no set shape? No, we couldn't. You have to observe each CLASS of things and only then can you make any inductive conclusions such that can give rise to the formulation of a physical law.
    Exactly. And the Universe isn't a class of things we have been able to observe. We only get to see bits of it and we see them from within it and we are limited by the laws of the very universe when observing it.


    Nor is there any reason at all to assume that multiple universes exist; after all, isn't the universe "everything"? Why would we even entertain the notion that multiple everythings exist, and furthermore that these differing "everythings" vary in physical law?
    I didn't suggest that they exist.
    But they may or they may have.
    As for assuming, given that the laws of nature are by definition PART OF THE UNIVERSE, it would be an assumption to suggest that all universes have/had the same laws of nature.
    What we call laws of nature is what we observe things do. If we see a pattern, we call it a law. There's not a single reason to suggest that these laws apply in all possible universes. There's not a reason to suggest that they apply to our universe itself as a whole, given that by definition the universe INCLUDES all laws of nature within it.




    I agree that ultimately it is an assumption, but I'd state that it's an entirely more rational one than the alternative. Empirically everything would imply this and there really is no reason to assume the universe or "everything" is somehow exempt.
    Yes there is. The very validity of "empirical evidence" is that's it's an induction. As explaned above.

    And why isn't God subject to the same laws if you claim that they are so universal that they even bind the Universe itself (despite being WITHIN IT by definition)? Can you support that without resorting to special pleadings or self-serving definitions?


    Again, are we discussing claims for absolute truth or whether beliefs are rational? And I don't believe the reasons are not apparent.
    We are discussing the question of the rationality of changing from no-position to theist position. I assert that, based on the argument from ID, there is no rational justification for such a change.

    So, where does absolute truth come into it? Well, a theist is a person who believes in God. "Belief" in the theist sense means that you hold out that God's existence is TRUE. BELIEF goes way beyond simply saying that "God might exist as a remote possiblity; one of many"


    There is plenty of evidence. Entropy suggests that the universe is not infinite, and if it's not infinite, then it wasn't "always there".
    Entropy suggests that the Universe is limited in size. Different to limiting its longetivity.

    But you're missing the point anyway. When I say that it was always there, I mean that there was no TIME before the Universe because TIME is a part of the Universe. Since there was no time before the Universe, there was never a time when there was no Universe.


    I'm not arguing against natural selection. I'm arguing that natural selection cannot be used as a cosmological argument. Don't just examine natural selection....examine all the microbiological necessities from which it springs, examine all the interactions of nonbiological matter itself to even support biology, examine all the physical interactions that put such matter into play, and finally examine all the natural and physical laws and how they might have "randomly" occurred or come about to inform matter. The problem of random chance is multiplied an umpteenth time.
    Well that just depends on how much time there is and how often mutations occur and how big populations are and how often they multiply. But scientists seem to agree on this and they are in the know.




    But that's not what I'm arguing (please see the previous point). I'm considering the totality of everything that is at play in the physical universe to allow for such an extraordinary event to occur. Taken as a whole, it DOES seem ridiculously absurd to suggest that chance is responsible.
    Again, time is of the essence. Science agrees. And scientists are a funny breed. They don't accept things willy nilly.

    Fair enough, I can't. But as I said, I find it to be ridiculously improbable. Can you provide evidence that it IS probable by chance alone?
    I did before. I cited sources that asserted that it's likely to only take 100 million years for the generation of a bacterium.



    Woooh there, says who? You? Why are you declaring what "the ends" must be? Isn't the "agent" in question the determining factor here? The agent here is, of course, the believer, so if the belief meets the believer's needs, then it's rational, which is essentially what I stated before.
    As I said, there is nothing wrong with your definition of "rational". One can easily suggest that this concept covers anyone who does whatever makes them happy. In that context, anyone believing anything is rational. And I admit that I should have included that in the OP. Perhaps I should start the thread again and stipulate what "rational" is to mean.


    Actually, if you randomly choose, then statistically ANY choice you make has the same chance of being the true one, since they're all equally probable. In fact, if they're all equally probable, then there exists no "measure of probability" by which you can make a more informed decision.
    I agree.



    Evolution is not a cosmological argument. The Big Bang itself suggest that the universe had a beginning. So while these may be rational, these don't make the possibility of God any less rational.
    The Big Bang theory suggests that the Universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning. And that beginning was the Big Bang itself. What happened before was the singularity. And how long that was happening for remains a mystery.



    Was this your OP's argument?
    Yes. As explained above, "belief" in the theistic sense, is more than just asserting that something is a possibility. Theistic belief actually involves asserting that the thing in question is true.

    Gotta disagree with you here, mostly because you're dictating what "the ends" must be (as close to the truth as possible). The definition itself is inherently subjective. Note that I'm not trying to use this entirely as a literal cop out....I do believe that a belief in God is supported by rationality, as I have explained before. It's a rational possibility to the cosmological question, and it's no more irrational than any other answer out there. Now consider the subjective reasons for believing, and the reasons for believing are increased beyond a purely logical fashion.
    Sure. And as I said before, if you insist on claiming that a belief is rational as long as it makes the believer happy then I can't dispute that. I haven't defined "rationality" in my OP. Therefore I'm happy to concede that changing from no-position to theism is rational insofar as it makes one happy; much the same as it would be rational for a mass murderer to slay yet another victim.
    There's no fool like an old fool

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