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  1. #1
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    Mind Trap VS The Dog

    -Back story-

    Yesterday I was working on a house, which we recently sold. I was to paint a ceiling after it had some minor repair work done. We were working next door, so this made it very easy to just take what I needed in a few short trips. I worked at the house in the morning, and then again later on in the afternoon. The first visit was uneventful except for their dogs. They had two in the house. One seemed to just love me. It was a Chihuahua, and wouldn't let me touch her. (MindTrap 1.. Dog's 0)

    I returned later to do the second job. My hands were full; a paint pan (full of paint)and roller in one hand and large drop cloth in the other. The owner was out cutting grass, with his back to me. When...... (DRAMATIC PAUSE) A dog appeared (not magically). The dog was about 30-40lbs, it was a medium size dog. It was not happy about my approach and began barking. I promptly ignored the barking dog, and tried to walk past it. The Dog then bit me on my knee. I was surprised, as I hadn't taken the dog THAT seriously. Now however, the dog was intent on standing it's ground, and having another go at your MindTrap. As my hands were full, I ruled out dumping the paint on the dog. Instead, as it came towards me again, I did my best impression of a punter and gave the dog a swift boot to the head. This apparently really pissed the dog off, and I could clearly see that it now wanted to eat me.
    So I began backing away with the dog barking viciously at me. Of course the owner, who was cutting grass, finally came to get his dog.

    (MindTrap 2, Dog 1)

    P.S. I'm fine, only one real mark. The owners were very distraught by the whole thing. I told them it was nothing and don't worry about it.
    ---end story--


    Debate topic
    So if you owned a dog that actually bit a person. What would you do with it?
    Should a dog that bites a person automatically be put to sleep?
    Finally, is there a response the person being bitten can take, that would be "To much". Say I had been carrying a gun, would shooting the dog dead be to much force?

    Side note, have you ever been bitten by a dog?... any other animal?
    To serve man.

  2. #2
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Wow. I've never left my pets around people who they didn't know and weren't comfortable with. Most certainly not Irish, my Pitt (I MISS HER). The dog in your example shouldn't be put to sleep. And yes, shooting the dog would have been a bit much in that case. Unless the dog came after you again and you felt you had no way to defend yourself other than shooting it.

    Personally I would have wanted to knock out the owner of the dog. And yes I've been bitten by a dog, but not a strangers dog. Our old dog ICEE would bite if she didn't like something. Same with another dog we had BJ. I have a scar on my hand from ICEE. But she was a pretty good dog. lol.

    What did the owner say or do? Were they suprised by the dogs reaction..?
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  3. #3
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    The owners seemed very surprised. I think the dog has shown its self to be protective in the past, but never to the point of biting. They offered me medical attention (Neosporine and a band-aid). Like I said, it was nothing.

    Our new dog "Bites", but it's all playfully. She doesn't clamp down, so to speak.
    This dog tried to clamp down.


    Quote Originally Posted by JAMIE
    Personally I would have wanted to knock out the owner of the dog
    I'm not upset at the owner, nor am I surprised at the dog. (Though I was surprised in the moment). Because Animals are animals, you never really know what they will do.



    Quote Originally Posted by JAMIE
    The dog in your example shouldn't be put to sleep. And yes, shooting the dog would have been a bit much in that case. Unless the dog came after you again and you felt you had no way to defend yourself other than shooting it.
    1) Why shouldn't the dog be put to sleep? Do you think that maybe it was the fault of a human and the dog was innocent?

    2) -shooting-- Given that my only ability to defend myself against an animal is deadly force (kicking doesn't help. I know. I tried.). How is it not appropriate? Or, if I'm wrong, what other actions are available to a person who is about to be bitten?
    To serve man.

  4. #4
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindtrap
    Why shouldn't the dog be put to sleep? Do you think that maybe it was the fault of a human and the dog was innocent?
    Because to me? There wasn't enough to show that the dog is permanently aggressive towards people. More so with the way you said the owner responded to the situation.

    I partially blame the owner for the reason I'll state below.

    Because Animals are animals, you never really know what they will do.

    Which is why animals should never be left around people they are not familiar with. You never know how they are going to react to people. But knowing the animal and the animal knowing you is going to help the situation.


    2) -shooting-- Given that my only ability to defend myself against an animal is deadly force (kicking doesn't help. I know. I tried.). How is it not appropriate? Or, if I'm wrong, what other actions are available to a person who is about to be bitten?
    Like you said, kicking the dog using other objects to whack him with. Heck, pistol whip the dog in that situation. But killing something is not appropriate unless it's your last resort. A warning shot would probably scare the living crap out of the dog and ended the attack. Or even throwing paint into the dogs eyes would have been a better idea than shooting the dog.

    What did they do with the dog after he got him away from you?
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  5. #5
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Because to me? There wasn't enough to show that the dog is permanently aggressive towards people. More so with the way you said the owner responded to the situation.

    I partially blame the owner for the reason I'll state below.
    I can understand that. But then, the next time (assuming) the dog bites someone, the owner won't be surprised. So is it like a two strikes and your out?
    Does the severity of the attack make a difference.
    Ex. Had the dog not bitten my knee, and had instead bitten my neck. Should the dog be put down then? (assuming I still live). In this instance I mean severity not in (More bites), rather in a more destructive place. So still one bite.



    Quote Originally Posted by JAMIE
    Which is why animals should never be left around people they are not familiar with. You never know how they are going to react to people. But knowing the animal and the animal knowing you is going to help the situation.
    I agree with you that owners are responsible for their dogs actions.


    Quote Originally Posted by JAMIE
    Like you said, kicking the dog using other objects to whack him with. Heck, pistol whip the dog in that situation. But killing something is not appropriate unless it's your last resort. A warning shot would probably scare the living crap out of the dog and ended the attack. Or even throwing paint into the dogs eyes would have been a better idea than shooting the dog.

    What did they do with the dog after he got him away from you?
    Still, as I said, kicking the dog pissed it off. I think any violent action would only escalate the situation. So human VS animal that is intent on attacking. violence will get more violence, barring outside intervention or deadly violence on the part of the person.


    They took the dog and put him in his pen again. The dog was probably violent because of what the owners had inadvertently done, along with some inherent tenancies. I think the owners were generally ignorant about their dog because of the small pen they put him in.


    another question..


    Who has the right of way? I mean. A dog who is standing in your way. Does the person have to back down? Or does the person have the right of way and thus the right to take whatever actions are necessary to get by?
    So that say I had to kill the dog in order to get by. It would then be .
    1) The dog's fault for not knowing it's place.
    or
    2) The owners fault for leaving a dog in the way.
    To serve man.

  6. #6
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    The thing about dogs is that some of them are very protective of their turf and you as the human very much have to respect the dog no matter what behavior's they have shown in the past.

    I was once attacked by my brother's dogs! I had known the dogs for years, prior to my my brother and his wife having children. Once they had children the dogs became very protective, as they had been trained by my brother to be, of the kids. You simply DO NOT walk up into my brothers yard when the dogs are out with the kids. They won't let you near the boys.

    Well, I didn't realize that they woudl be so protective even with me around. We went over for a family get together and I was playing with my son who likes to pretend I'm a big monster and he's the hulk. The dogs took no notice of my son acting like the hulk. Quite normal to them. But when I started acting like a big monster that was going to go after the hulk.....even though I was plodding toward him....not even walking fast....just plodding....the dogs put themselves very quickly between me and my son. The barking scared my son half to death. I was tryign to calm my son down from a distance but knew immediately that I couldn't grab him and pick him up or they would certianly take me down. Both of these dogs are 80-90 pound dogs. Big enough to hurt me bad enough.

    Sure enough the male went for me and when he did the female did too. I managed to get my brothers attention and told him that if these dogs didn't back off I was gonna fight back. It took a minute but he finally got the male to chill out.

    Now to answer, what to do?

    The first thing my brother did was call the dog over to him, and near me. He made the dog get into a passive postion that put me in a superior postion tot he dog. He let the dog get my scent and I had to be friendly with the dog. This let the dog know that I was OK and could totally be out with the kids.

    From that day on....I've never had a problem goign over there and runnign around with the kids. The dog just hadn't been told that I was part of the pack! HAHAHAHA

    I think it is outrageous in most cases to put a do gto death after an attack. It depends on the level of the attack. If a person is severely mauled....it might be a good idea. But my brother made a strong impression on me that it is all about the owner teaching the dog how to be.

    In Heaven there is no beer. That's why we drink it here.

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  7. #7
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindtrap
    I can understand that. But then, the next time (assuming) the dog bites someone, the owner won't be surprised. So is it like a two strikes and your out?
    No. I don't believe two strikes and you're out. Of course the owner wouldn't be as surprised, but? I would hope that the owner takes proper precautions and preventative steps to not have a situation like this occur again. Obedience school, caging the dog when guests are over ect.. Aggressive dogs shouldn't be put to sleep, in a lot of cases. Just better owners. Or I should say more educated owners.


    Does the severity of the attack make a difference.
    Ex. Had the dog not bitten my knee, and had instead bitten my neck. Should the dog be put down then? (assuming I still live). In this instance I mean severity not in (More bites), rather in a more destructive place. So still one bite.
    I'm not educated on dogs well enough if they know where to bite to cause harm to a human and where to bite if it's a warning. Like with other dogs. If they can? Then yes the severity matters. Cause then it would sound like a bite to the knee is a warning bite, where as a bite to the neck would indicate the dog was absolutely trying to hurt you.

    Should a dog with a strong history of aggressive behavior be put down? I want to say no. I would like to see a proper owner found who has a farm or some place else that the dog could live.


    Who has the right of way? I mean. A dog who is standing in your way. Does the person have to back down? Or does the person have the right of way and thus the right to take whatever actions are necessary to get by?
    So that say I had to kill the dog in order to get by. It would then be .
    1) The dog's fault for not knowing it's place.
    or
    2) The owners fault for leaving a dog in the way.
    I'm not entirely sure how to answer this question. When at someones house and you are NOT familiar with the dog and the dog is NOT familiar with you? Then it's placed on the owner IMO. Dogs, as a whole, are territorial of their living environment.

    It's not the dogs fault that they don't know their place. That's up to the owners to teach them, and to introduce them to people who will be around them.

    If you're going down the street and a dog is blocking your way in an aggressive manner it isn't a matter of who has the right of way. We can't understand what "bark bark growl bark bark" means. So it's in OUR best interest to remove ourselves from the situation to prevent any violent behavior.

    My ex and I had a pitt bull who was incredibly protective of me. She would sit on my feet while I cooked or would sit in between my legs if I was sitting on the counter in the kitchen. She would lay in front of our door or next to my side of the bed. She was ALWAYS around me. She disliked ANY man around me besides the ex. These are behaviors we recognized in her and made the necessary precautions.

    We had to put her outside if we had to argue or she would sit next to me and growl the entire time. The point is, people learn the behaviors of their dog. How they will act around people, in general. But you NEVER, NEVER leave a dog that can cause an issue around people they aren't familiar with. Most attacks IMO are wholly on the owner and not the animal.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  8. #8
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Wonderful responses guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by ROGUE
    I think it is outrageous in most cases to put a do gto death after an attack. It depends on the level of the attack. If a person is severely mauled....it might be a good idea. But my brother made a strong impression on me that it is all about the owner teaching the dog how to be.
    Well of course there are two levels of putting to death that we are talking about.

    1) At the point of attack. So for your example.. would it be excessive force to kill the a dog that is standing between you and your child?

    2) After the Fact.. A dog that has attacked you. Say the two dogs had actually attacked you, and caused whatever they could before someone helped you.


    I think you answered the second type. But what about the first?
    Would it be right for you to kill the dogs that stood between you and your child?
    (To me, as a parent.. it's no contest. A dog between me and my child should be calling for it's owner because I wouldn't hesitate)
    To an owner of said dog... my explanation would be simple. "Your dog, where it doesn't belong... sorry for your loss."

    Quote Originally Posted by ROGUE
    But my brother made a strong impression on me that it is all about the owner teaching the dog how to be.
    I totally agree with that. Still, even to get the level of obedience your brother exerted takes a LOT of effort.
    That means 99% of dog owners (figure of speech), simply can't handle that sort of dog.
    The dog that attacked me was in the process of being trained.

    But, this is much more about the person being attacked then it is about the owner.I mean the greatest dog trainer in the world could call his dog off with a stern look. But if he isn't around, and the dog is trying to keep me from doing what I am supposed to be doing, then what sort of reaction is o.k. for me?

    Take dog between parent and child. I don't know for sure that the dog is only focused on me for the moment, and will turn on my child next.
    So of course the Dog is going to go, and any owner of it should EXPECT such action from me (or anyone in that situation).

    It is easy for us to project about dogs that we know. But for everyone else, what sort of actions should we really expect?


    Quote Originally Posted by jamie
    No. I don't believe two strikes and you're out. Of course the owner wouldn't be as surprised, but? I would hope that the owner takes proper precautions and preventative steps to not have a situation like this occur again
    An owner can, and stuff will still happen.
    Dogs get off leashes. (ours did the first day). Dogs break training.

    For example, the dog that attacked me, the owner was sure to be outside with the dog.... Didn't matter.
    The dog could have really gone after me with his back turned. As the dog had never bitten anyone before, he wasn't expecting it.
    Should it be after training, then he really won't expect anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAMIE
    Cause then it would sound like a bite to the knee is a warning bite, where as a bite to the neck would indicate the dog was absolutely trying to hurt you.
    I chuckled at this a little bit I know the Dog wasn't playing.. So it was absolutely trying to hurt me. Where it bit me was more of just circumstantial.
    Much like a man pointing a gun at me. Just because he hits my shoulder instead of my heart. The intent is what is important. The man would get attempted murder. ..but dogs get ???

    Quote Originally Posted by JAMIE
    Should a dog with a strong history of aggressive behavior be put down? I want to say no. I would like to see a proper owner found who has a farm or some place else that the dog could live.
    So the should basically get off scott free.. short of killing someone (I assume).


    Quote Originally Posted by JAMIE
    I'm not entirely sure how to answer this question
    I appreciate your efforts, and input. This is not a debate to be won or lost. We are just talking


    Quote Originally Posted by JAMIE
    It's not the dogs fault that they don't know their place.
    Ahh, you are right about that. But then, it's not my fault the dog is standing between me and my child or specifically, trying to attack me. It's not my fault I don't know if the Dog will try to kill me or not.
    So now we are both guilt free in our actions? (Whatever they may be)


    Quote Originally Posted by JAMIE
    If you're going down the street and a dog is blocking your way in an aggressive manner it isn't a matter of who has the right of way. We can't understand what "bark bark growl bark bark" means. So it's in OUR best interest to remove ourselves from the situation to prevent any violent behavior
    Without external intervention all conflicts will involve violence, as long as the dog wills it. I mean, you vs dog.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAMIE
    We had to put her outside if we had to argue or she would sit next to me and growl the entire time. The point is, people learn the behaviors of their dog. How they will act around people, in general. But you NEVER, NEVER leave a dog that can cause an issue around people they aren't familiar with. Most attacks IMO are wholly on the owner and not the animal.
    First of all.. that's a funny story.
    Still, I guess I'm trying to focus more on the victims side. The person being attacked. What responsibilities do they have? When you are at an impasse with an animal.. I don't see anything but violence occurring.


    Jamie, I think you have answered my first two questions wonderfully.
    It's the final question, from the person being attacked that I'm not sure of.
    What is the reason for a person who is being attacked to not kill any animal?


    Again.. thank you both for your input.
    To serve man.

  9. #9
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Wonderful responses guys.


    Well of course there are two levels of putting to death that we are talking about.

    1) At the point of attack. So for your example.. would it be excessive force to kill the a dog that is standing between you and your child?
    For me, if I think the dog is the very aggressive type and I am simply not goign to be able to get away, self preservation takes over and the dog dies if it doesn't leave.

    Now if it's me vs. a chihuahua....we are just gonna end up playing soccer.

    In my case the dog wasn't about to attack my child that was obvious. HE was completely herding the kids together and putting himself between me and them. When he attacked me I could tell he wasn't trying to maim me he was trying to make sure he had my attention. eh was biting me but not to the point that I was goign to be scarred for life. I didn't feel like I was in danger, rather I was in a firm stand off....so I didn't feel the need to "kill" the dog. I was getting ready to knock it out. If my brother hadn't been there I would have had to fight the dogs. I love animals and didn't want to hurt my brother's dogs....though I know he would have totally understood.

    2) After the Fact.. A dog that has attacked you. Say the two dogs had actually attacked you, and caused whatever they could before someone helped you.
    Again it would have come down to fight or flight. They had me to a point that I knew I couldn't run. So it was necessary to submit to chill them out or fight it out. Had my brother not been there I would have not hesitated to take them out....not kill....but hurt them enough to get the idea they ain't the top dog! hehehe

    I think you answered the second type. But what about the first?
    Would it be right for you to kill the dogs that stood between you and your child?
    (To me, as a parent.. it's no contest. A dog between me and my child should be calling for it's owner because I wouldn't hesitate)
    To an owner of said dog... my explanation would be simple. "Your dog, where it doesn't belong... sorry for your loss."
    IF I thought for a second that my child was in any danger what so ever.....the dogs would have been toast. That "Daddy gene" kicks in and it wouldn't mater if that was a big ol' grizzly bear....that's a fight to the death.

    Had the dogs attack my child I'm not sure that I couldn't have helped killing them on the spot in anger. That's just me.


    I totally agree with that. Still, even to get the level of obedience your brother exerted takes a LOT of effort.
    That means 99% of dog owners (figure of speech), simply can't handle that sort of dog.
    The dog that attacked me was in the process of being trained.

    But, this is much more about the person being attacked then it is about the owner.I mean the greatest dog trainer in the world could call his dog off with a stern look. But if he isn't around, and the dog is trying to keep me from doing what I am supposed to be doing, then what sort of reaction is o.k. for me?
    I agree with you. My brother being there and me knowing it certainly had an effect on the outcome. had he not been there the palette of things to happen would have been much larger to work with.

    I know a lot of dog owner's do not have that type of control over their dogs. Funny enough for my brother he wants his family safe and thus he has put a lot of time and effort into training the dogs. I do know that he would get rid of them if they ever hurt one of the kids.

    In Heaven there is no beer. That's why we drink it here.

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  10. #10
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    First off, I have a question for you, Mr. Trap. Why is it, now that I'm trying to get away from ODN for a bit, that all of a sudden I'm seeing such cool threads? Are you guys just trying to make me look like a fool in front of all the other Regs (see my "Self-Imposed Exile" thread in the Regs forum for an explanation)? God, I hate you all!

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Debate topic
    So if you owned a dog that actually bit a person. What would you do with it?
    Keep it somewhere where it couldn't bite strangers - e.g., the backyard.

    Should a dog that bites a person automatically be put to sleep?
    No, especially considering the animal didn't cause you any serious harm. Adequate compensation would consist of paying for whatever medical treatment would be necessary to the victim's wounds (in your case, a box of band-aids would probably do), and an apology from the owner. We also don't know if this incident was an isolated one in the life of an otherwise friendly dog.

    Finally, is there a response the person being bitten can take, that would be "To much". Say I had been carrying a gun, would shooting the dog dead be to much force?
    Anything beyond doing what is necessary to stop the animal from attacking you would certainly be "too much".

    Side note, have you ever been bitten by a dog?... any other animal?
    It's actually my earliest memory. When I was three years old, the neighborhood dog, Charlie, wondered into my back yard. My friend and I walked up to it, and I gave it one of those typical, three year old, Downs Syndrome-like, hard pats on the back, not knowing that it had arthritis in it's back (or, at least, that's what they told me). The dog yelped, turned around, and bit me right in the face. Twenty-six years later, I still have the scar under my right eye, and I can still remember rolling back and forth in the grass like a turtle on it's back, screaming to my mother for help in my little oshkoshbgosh overalls.

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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Quote Originally Posted by MT
    What is the reason for a person who is being attacked to not kill any animal?
    Well I am not opposed to someone killing an animal that is attacking them I would just like to see other methods used first. Like what you did kicking the dog in his head. Granted, the dog was probably going to attack again but it did give enough time for the owner to figure out what was going on and to intervene.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Quote Originally Posted by ROGUE
    For me, if I think the dog is the very aggressive type and I am simply not goign to be able to get away, self preservation takes over and the dog dies if it doesn't leave.

    Now if it's me vs. a chihuahua....we are just gonna end up playing soccer.
    Well, you got to give props to the chihuahua that actually attacks you.
    The chihuahua I met earlier that day.... licked me. I didn't put up much of a fight

    Quote Originally Posted by ROGUE
    Had my brother not been there I would have not hesitated to take them out....not kill....but hurt them enough to get the idea they ain't the top dog! hehehe
    How do you think that would have played out against two dogs? (You did say there were two earlier right?)
    I think I could take any one dog... two.. now that would be a problem.



    In the end the situation taught me that I should have been carrying a weapon.. (knife).
    Just for the fact that I was totally unprepared, and that is not the boyscout way.



    Quote Originally Posted by CZAHAR
    First off, I have a question for you, Mr. Trap. Why is it, now that I'm trying to get away from ODN for a bit, that all of a sudden I'm seeing such cool threads? Are you guys just trying to make me look like a fool in front of all the other Regs (see my "Self-Imposed Exile" thread in the Regs forum for an explanation)? God, I hate you all!
    All is going according to plan. See you try to leave, but in fact your mind is trapped.


    Quote Originally Posted by CZAHAR
    No, especially considering the animal didn't cause you any serious harm. Adequate compensation would consist of paying for whatever medical treatment would be necessary to the victim's wounds (in your case, a box of band-aids would probably do), and an apology from the owner. We also don't know if this incident was an isolated one in the life of an otherwise friendly dog.
    I can totally buy that. The way I see it in the end as long as all is restored as before, no worries.
    (They did offer band-aids and such.. and they wer.e very sorry. Were I an ass, I could have sued them (our state is bad for that).

    I guess the real problem occurs when permanent damage is done.
    For example. The dog I encountered will probably hate me forever. So if I lived down that street, and the
    dog ever got out, I would face a continual threat. Which is just a hazard of living in a free country.

    Quote Originally Posted by CZAHAR
    It's actually my earliest memory. When I was three years old, the neighborhood dog, Charlie, wondered into my back yard. My friend and I walked up to it, and I gave it one of those typical, three year old, Downs Syndrome-like, hard pats on the back, not knowing that it had arthritis in it's back (or, at least, that's what they told me). The dog yelped, turned around, and bit me right in the face. Twenty-six years later, I still have the scar under my right eye, and I can still remember rolling back and forth in the grass like a turtle on it's back, screaming to my mother for help in my little oshkoshbgosh overalls.
    There is something about a child being bitten... I demand blood retribution.
    If it were my child, .. geez. I'd lose it.


    Quote Originally Posted by JAMIE
    Well I am not opposed to someone killing an animal that is attacking them I would just like to see other methods used first. Like what you did kicking the dog in his head. Granted, the dog was probably going to attack again but it did give enough time for the owner to figure out what was going on and to intervene.
    That is good to know.
    I think Czahar put it right, anything beyond what it takes to get the dog to stop.. is excessive.
    I don't think that even if I had a gun I would have shot the dog. For the very reason that it is a bit excessive.
    But I don't think any force is excessive if you are going to be attacked because you never know to what extent the attack will take.

    In my case, had there been no owner around.. the dog wouldn't have given up (i think).
    To serve man.

  13. #13
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Debate topic
    So if you owned a dog that actually bit a person. What would you do with it?
    Should a dog that bites a person automatically be put to sleep?
    Finally, is there a response the person being bitten can take, that would be "To much". Say I had been carrying a gun, would shooting the dog dead be to much force?

    Side note, have you ever been bitten by a dog?... any other animal?
    Aw, I am glad you survived it.

    I did own a dog that attacked a student once. The authorities gave me a choice of 2 options. Put it to sleep or give it away to someone else.

    Of course I gave Boelie away to an old lady and her husband living on a farm. He enjoyed the remaining of his life. Killed some snakes and saved even their lives when criminals tried their luck to break into their house at night.

    I was also bitting by a dog, but it was my fault. I climbed over the wall into its territory and it didn't know me and saw me as an intruder.

    I don't know how your by-laws are in America, but here you have to keep your dog behind locked gates and high walls. If your dog attack someone in the street, you have big problems. Your dog may not get out of the erf without a leash.

    If I walk in the street and a dog attack me, I will rather try and fend it off before killing it. There are certain ways to do this. You can either shove your fist down its throat, making it gag. Kick it away in the process. Or you can split his fore legs apart - but you will need to be quite strong.

    If a dog attack my child - he is dead meat as I will kill it with my own bare hands if I don't have a gun on me. I read of too many dogs peeling children's skin of their heads for instance. So I won't take chances.

    And then again - it depends on the type of dog. If it is a rottweiler - I will shoot it - they are strong dogs. If it is a smaller breed - I will try to not hurt it.
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Apparently, the dog was as confused as you were.

    Dogs aren't complicated.

    They're territorial.

    They have a pack mentality.

    You're not part of the pack.

    You walked on an area the dog thought was it's turf.

    Now, why a 30 pound pooch thought it could take a piece of you is a bit odd. Some dogs are weirdly aggressive like that. Anyway...

    Here's what you want to do.

    You have to let the dog know one of two things:
    A) You're in the same pack.

    or

    B) You're higher up on the pecking order.

    I recommend A.

    A involves going over to the owner's house and having the dog hang out with you and the owner. The dog may still bark at you, but it likely won't bite at you.

    If that's not an option, you need to employ B which means using the alpha grip. It involves having your hands free so if you need to take stuff into a house and think the dog is going to have words with you, make a trip without anything first.

    When the dog approaches you, kneal down and wave your right hand out to the side like you're waving goodbye. Just out. Not back. If you do this right, the dog will watch your right hand. Take your left and grip the everloving mule CENSORED out of the dog's neck. You need to pin it to the ground. Use both hands and your weight. Be fast and you won't get bitten.

    After you hold the dog down, it's going to either want to fight you more or give up.

    If it gives up, leave it pinned for a little bit and then let it up. Be prepared for it to try to have words with you again (some dogs need the alpha grip a few times).

    If you have the dog pinned and it still wants to fight, you need to reach down and BITE it on the nose. Not the bridge of the nose. The black part. That should make it give up.

    In doing this, you're telling the dog, "I am BADDER than you. I am higher up in the pack than you. Respect me." Most dogs will oblige.

    Most people have trouble with dogs when they give the dogs mixed messages.

    You walked onto the dog's turf which said, "I want to throw down with you." So it did. You then kicked it which said, "I want to fight, but not really."

    Dogs. Not complicated. Be nice if you can. Remember: cats are just sorta there. Horses help us out, but dogs? Dogs are on our side.

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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Quote Originally Posted by ZHAVRIC
    Dogs aren't complicated.
    Yea, my psy teacher used to say that if you can't train a dog.. don't have kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZHAVRIC
    If you have the dog pinned and it still wants to fight, you need to reach down and BITE it on the nose. Not the bridge of the nose. The black part
    That I have never heard before... Bite the dog?
    On the really snotty part?

    Truthfully, If me biting it is required for it not to attack me.... I think i'll just shoot it instead.. yuck.
    To serve man.

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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    When the dog approaches you, kneal down and wave your right hand out to the side like you're waving goodbye. Just out. Not back. If you do this right, the dog will watch your right hand. Take your left and grip the everloving mule CENSORED out of the dog's neck. You need to pin it to the ground. Use both hands and your weight. Be fast and you won't get bitten.

    After you hold the dog down, it's going to either want to fight you more or give up.

    If it gives up, leave it pinned for a little bit and then let it up. Be prepared for it to try to have words with you again (some dogs need the alpha grip a few times).

    If you have the dog pinned and it still wants to fight, you need to reach down and BITE it on the nose. Not the bridge of the nose. The black part. That should make it give up.

    Two questions:

    A) Where did you get this information from?

    B) Have you ever actually done this? If so, please describe the incident and how successful it was.

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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    MT, did you look into the dog's eyes?

    Other tips that may prevent or stop a dog attack

    Don't run past a dog: Dogs naturally love to chase and catch things. Don't give them a reason to be come excited or aggressive.

    Never disturb a dog that's caring for puppies, sleeping or eating.

    If a dog approaches to sniff you, stay still.
    In most cases, the dog will go away when it determines you are not a threat.

    If you are threatened by a dog, remain calm.
    Don't scream. If you say anything, speak calmly and firmly. Avoid eye contact. Try to stay still until the dog leaves, or back away slowly until the dog is out of sight. Don't turn and run.

    If you fall or are knocked to the ground, curl into a ball with your hands over your head and neck. Protect your face.



    My husband during his military training, qualified as a dog trainer and worked with many dogs. Mostly German Shepherds, Rottweilers and Dobermans. They needed to train these dogs how to attack people on command. They also needed to know what to do in case a dog attacked them.

    According to him, taking a dogs two front legs and pulling it away from each other will put him out of action. I do however will only recommend that if you feel your life is really in danger. How practical that is, is another question. I doubt if I will be able to pull such a stunt.
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Quote Originally Posted by ASPO
    I did own a dog that attacked a student once. The authorities gave me a choice of 2 options. Put it to sleep or give it away to someone else.

    Of course I gave Boelie away to an old lady and her husband living on a farm. He enjoyed the remaining of his life. Killed some snakes and saved even their lives when criminals tried their luck to break into their house at night.
    Was it a very bad attack?.. or was it just one good bite?

    Do you think what the authorities asked was fair?


    Personally, this makes a lot of sense. Especially for neighborhoods. As I said, if
    I were to live down the street from that dog, then I would have an ever present risk to myself (unless I was able to do as Zhavric pointed out). So, while I'm not sure how "Right" it is, it makes a lot of sense to have the dog removed from the area instead of killed. As your story illustrates, it could work out better for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by ASPO
    MT, did you look into the dog's eyes?
    No,, but I did do the Crock Dundee thing....


    I probably did it wrong beaus of all the crap in my hands.
    Maybe that is what pissed him off in the first place.


    That's a good link Aspo
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    If you fall or are knocked to the ground, curl into a ball with your hands over your head and neck. Protect your face.
    I'm not sure how good of an idea that is if you are being attacked..
    I mean, it seems to sound a lot like.. "Lay there, and be eaten".

    Quote Originally Posted by ASPO
    According to him, taking a dogs two front legs and pulling it away from each other will put him out of action.
    That seems like another strange fun fact about dogs. I can understand pulling the back legs apart.. so you can kick between them .
    Front legs, wouldn't have been my first guess.
    To serve man.

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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Debate topic
    So if you owned a dog that actually bit a person. What would you do with it?
    Should a dog that bites a person automatically be put to sleep?
    Finally, is there a response the person being bitten can take, that would be "To much". Say I had been carrying a gun, would shooting the dog dead be to much force?

    Side note, have you ever been bitten by a dog?... any other animal?
    The extent of my knowledge is that I'm an avid watcher of The Dog Whisperer and It's Me or the Dog... :-)

    Each case has to be considered individually. I think it depends on the nature of the incident, the extent of the injuries, and if it is likely that it will happen again.

    From watching these shows, it becomes apparent that dogs will do what dogs do. It's their nature to alert and protect their pack. Some dogs are more dominant or fearful and will be more reactive. It is the owner's responsibility to both assert dominance over their dogs as many dogs feel as if they are the pack leader due to lack of proper training by the owner.

    In your case, the dog barking at you was an alert to both you and its 'pack' (the owner) that you were trespassing on 'its' territory. By continuing on your way without regard he felt compelled to attack you. When a dog charges you, the best thing you can do is to stop, turn sideways, and look away from the dog. By you kicking it just proved to it that you were a considerable threat for repeat attacks.

    I've been barked and charged at by both a rottweiler and german shephard on separate occasions while walking through my neighborhood. Both times were heart-stopping for me, but both times I was left alone after they realized I wasn't a threat after I stopped and looked away. I have to say part of it was luck, because even if you do stop and look away that doesn't guarantee no attack, it just increases the odds in your favor.

    In the case you presented, I think shooting the dog on the owner's premises would be too much force. Kicking it, though, gave the owner enough time to get it under control.

  20. #20
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    Re: Mind Trap VS The Dog

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So if you owned a dog that actually bit a person. What would you do with it?
    Depends on a lot of variables:
    who the person was, the situation in which the bite was inflicted, the severity of the wounds inflicted by the dog, and the size of the dog.

    Personally, on the few occasions where I have had people doing work inside of my home, or had visitors that my dogs were not familiar with, I have put my dogs in their kennels until I could observe their reaction to those people.

    This should be done with ANY dog, if a stranger is in the owner's home, because all dogs are naturally protective of their territory, and will see a stranger in their home as a threat, even if the person is not an actual threat to anyone.

    In your particular situation, it was very irresponsible of the owner not to contain his dogs in a kennel, or another closed room, while you were doing work in his house...

    Back to the question....I have never owned a dog that bit someone, because I do not ever put my dogs in situations where a bite could possibly occur, and my dogs are very well-trained, and know that biting is unacceptable behavior.

    But, if I had a dog that bit someone, I would have to take into account the severity of the bite, and the situation in which it occured, before deciding what to do with the dog.

    First of all, I would seek a qualified trainer to try and extinguish the biting behavior.

    Then, if my dog were still habitually biting humans that were not threatening our family,(more than 3 times) even after attempts to train the dog, I would try to find another home for the dog, with a single person who lives alone, because I have children to consider.

    As a last resort, if I could not find a suitable home for said dog, with a responsible owner who knew the dog's history, and was still willing to adopt him/her, and the dog was a breed large enough to do severe damage to someone by biting, I would have the dog euthanized.

    The reason being that I would not put my family at risk by keeping the dog, and I would not want to put the dog at risk, by giving him/her to someone who might exploit the aggressive tendencies, and use the dog for unethical purposes such as dogfighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028
    Should a dog that bites a person automatically be put to sleep?
    If the bite was fatal, or severe enough to require hospitalization, or the dog has bitten humans multiple times, I would tend to say yes.......especially if he/she were a large dog........UNLESS there was someone who was willing, qualified enough, and responsible enough to rehabilitate said dog, and the authorities would allow it.

    If the bite was not very severe and/or it was the first time the dog bit anyone, or the dog was a smaller dog that could be easily contained, I would say no.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028
    Finally, is there a response the person being bitten can take, that would be "To much". Say I had been carrying a gun, would shooting the dog dead be to much force?
    In the particular situation you were in, the use of deadly force wouldn't have been justified, since I don't think you were fearing for your life.
    However, if you felt your life was in actual danger, I think using any means necesssary to defend yourself would have been the correct thing to do.

    Side note: never kick or jab at an attacking dog, as you stated you did, MT...it will just give them something to latch onto.

    And, as has been noted, if you feel threatened by a dog, never look them in the eyes, because a dog considers that a challenge to attack.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028
    have you ever been bitten by a dog.?... any other animal?
    Yes...many times..by dogs AND cats, mostly due to the fact that my profession (vet tech), puts me at greater risk of animal bites than most people would be exposed to.

    I have permanent nerve damage in my left hand from an infected cat bite, and that was the most severe incident.
    Last edited by Scarlett44; March 24th, 2009 at 01:51 PM.
    "As long as I have a voice, I will speak for those who have none".

 

 
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