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Thread: Original Sin

  1. #21
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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackturtle View Post
    Agreed. I am assuming that lucifer did not eat of the tree. As far as i have heard, he grew jealous of god (envy, which is a sin) because he thought that he deserved to be the most powerful. Without eating the fruit. He was like any human (you see someone with something you dont have, and you feel jealous). My argument is, that the tree doesnt matter. sin came along on its own, possibly meaning that god bought sin, but never comitted it.
    Do you have any scripture to back up the idea that Lucifer was as ignorant as man at the time of the deception? Also, if memory serves, at the time of the deception, god had not yet cast out Lucifer from heaven. Do you have any scriptural evidence that he wasn't sent there by god to tempt man, as he tempted Job... something god did sanction (if you buy the scripture)...?
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  2. #22
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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    Do you have any scripture to back up the idea that Lucifer was as ignorant as man at the time of the deception? Also, if memory serves, at the time of the deception, god had not yet cast out Lucifer from heaven. Do you have any scriptural evidence that he wasn't sent there by god to tempt man, as he tempted Job... something god did sanction (if you buy the scripture)...?
    Again, i dont know, i was assuming. but you do bring up a good point. does anyone know where in the bible does it state that lucifer was cast out of heaven?
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  3. #23
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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackturtle View Post
    Agreed. I am assuming that lucifer did not eat of the tree. As far as i have heard, he grew jealous of god (envy, which is a sin) because he thought that he deserved to be the most powerful. Without eating the fruit. He was like any human (you see someone with something you dont have, and you feel jealous). My argument is, that the tree doesnt matter. sin came along on its own, possibly meaning that god bought sin, but never comitted it.
    Isn't jealousy a sin as well? It was my understanding that Lucifer was upset because god gave Humans free will and the angels didn't get this option. The problem is none of that is actually in the bible. Its a story taken from some other book that didn't make it into the bible for what ever reason, as far as I know. So, any speculation on the nature of Lucifer is just that, speculation. But I do see where you are going with this, and as I mentioned earlier, Angels apparently already had knowledge of good and evil. So since god placed satan here (or the serpant), it would still be gods fault for 1.) placing evil on earth in the first place and 2.) having the fore-knowledge that humans would screw up anyway.


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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsdarts View Post
    Isn't jealousy a sin as well? It was my understanding that Lucifer was upset because god gave Humans free will and the angels didn't get this option. The problem is none of that is actually in the bible. Its a story taken from some other book that didn't make it into the bible for what ever reason, as far as I know. So, any speculation on the nature of Lucifer is just that, speculation. But I do see where you are going with this, and as I mentioned earlier, Angels apparently already had knowledge of good and evil. So since god placed satan here (or the serpant), it would still be gods fault for 1.) placing evil on earth in the first place and 2.) having the fore-knowledge that humans would screw up anyway.
    I agree, in saying that it seems like it was gods fault. Going back to the original topic, im saying that original sin cant be right because satan was able to sin on his own. Also, if angels didnt have free will, how did lucifer sin?
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  5. #25
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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackturtle View Post
    I agree, in saying that it seems like it was gods fault. Going back to the original topic, im saying that original sin cant be right because satan was able to sin on his own. Also, if angels didnt have free will, how did lucifer sin?
    Good question, for which I don't have an answer. I can only speculate that only humans are accountable for sin? I just don't know.


    Opposing theory to the creation of the "known universe". Read it carefully, it's not a difficult read on physics and quantum mechanics.

  6. #26
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    Re: Original Sin

    If one drops the negative connotations of religion and looks at it from an anthropologic viewpoint, religion is a logical step in the evolution of man's psyche.

    Human beings have a driving inherent need to "know". Even today scientists study things that cannot and will not ever have a significant effect on society. We take pictures of far off galaxies. We study ancient long-forgotten Egyptian heiroglyphs. We analyze the components of planetary atmospheres for remote planets that could never sustain life. Why? Because we have a thirst for knowledge and a need to explain our surroundings that can never be satisfied.

    Early man had no concept of science, but the need to explain themselves and their surroundings naturally led to religion in an attempt to answer the age old questions like "Where did we come from?" and "Why are we here?"

    Virtually every human culture, no matter how isolated, developed a "creation theory". The originators of the Judeo/Christian school of thought developed an all-powerful God as creator of man. In their limited scope of reality, this made sense. The ideas of "free will" and "orginal sin" presented a plausible explanation as to why an all-powerful and ostensibly good God could or would create beings as flawed as mankind.

    I think that should our race ever be fortunate enough to encounter similarly intelligent beings from another planet we would find that this "need to know" is as important to the evolution of sentient, intelligent entities as the need to procreate is to all life in general. And I would bet that these other entities would also have gone through a developmental stage that included the beleif in God or Gods.

  7. #27
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    Re: Original Sin

    In regard to the recently raised issues...

    I think that the only ways to interpret the biblical story are:

    • God actually did not want them to eat from the tree, and was angry when they did.
    • (Clearly contradicted by Gods omnipotence)
  8. The tree and snake were placed to test Adam and Eve.
  9. This brings up the issue of them not knowing good from evil before eating from the tree... So what was being tested?
  • God was trying to trick Adam and Eve, and the snake was trying to help them (yes, some people have believed this)
  • As a metaphor, with the lesson/meaning being: Ignorance is bliss. (I think that this way makes the most sense.)
  • Before Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, they did not see the evil and injustice around them because they had no knowledge of good and evil.
  • This is like a version of Plato's Allegory of the Cave
  • I guess I should explain what I mean. The basic idea of the allegory of the cave is that all people are trapped in the physical world, but do not know it. Once they have seen the "Ideal World", everything in the physical world seems infinitely worse to them. (For a better explanation see Wikipedia or this video
  • OR: God gave them a choice. They could either live blissfully and ignorant or they could gain knowledge and have to earn happiness.


  • I also want to point out that the snake doesn't really make sense in the story because Jews don't believe in "the devil".

    The problem is that our culture has evolved to the point that we take stories like this literally. People think that if they do not believe every facet of these stories, they will go to hell, when they should be using these stories for moral and philosophical lessons.

  • #28
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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackturtle View Post
    Again, i dont know, i was assuming. but you do bring up a good point. does anyone know where in the bible does it state that lucifer was cast out of heaven?
    Great question. here's the thing. Most of what everyone, especially church folks, about Satan.....comes from other sources than the Bible.

    There are verses in the Bible that Christians will throw out there as talking about when Satan was cast out of heaven but if you actually read them....the next thing you would do is shoot a christian a "Are you ****ing serious?" look because it's sketchy at best.

    The vast majority of what you even think you know about modern day theories on Hell are stolen straight from Dante's Inferno.

    I don't have the time right now to find those particular versus but I am almost certain that one fo them is in Revelations.....and you'd have to be a quack to take it to mean that it was talking about Satan. There is a reference to the Morning Star being cast down.....something like that. And the Morning Star is supposed to be Satan. Being that it Apocalyptic writing and granted that it's full of symbolism....you could make a lot of cases that it referring to something completely different.

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  • #29
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    Re: Original Sin

    The truth of the matter is this. People didn't understand why "evil" existed in the world and exactly like all the other religions of the world the Jews made up their own mythology.

    In fact you find the mythologies of other religions smack in the Bible. The Flood is found in OLDER stuff, Tower of Babil is found in older stuff, Nimrod the Hunter is totally stole from Babylon mythology.

    They didn't have an answer....so they made one up. It's how they do things. It's how all religions explain things they do not understand at the given time. Unfortunately once it's written......since it's the word of God....they are STUCK with it.

    Once upon a time the entire BIble was THE word of God. Now the first have is considered nothing more the allegory and not literal at all. Which is an amazing shift in thought. One can only hope one of these days they get it figured out that the NT is just as silly as the OT.

    At any rate....good questions being asked. Satan was cast out BEFORE man. SO sin was already an option. BUT....how is it possible for Satan to sin if the angels themselves do not have free will (question how do we know the angels don't have freewill) Why are we so quick to forget the Nephilim were created by ANGELS ****ING HUMANS......it's in the bible. Genesis 6 I think.

    Christians don't know. They just don't. They are too blinded by faith to even think about the issues seriously. But hey.....it's now all allegory to them so it doesn't even matter.

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  • #30
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    Re: Original Sin

    ok ok, I met up with one of my cooler christian friends who works at the homeless center and he gave me an argument that makes sense. wanna see if it works so here goes.

    1) God is everywhere all the time and knows everything
    2) God is good and does no wrong
    3) God is not a tyrant, so all his creations have free will. His creations also have knowledge of good and evil
    4) God knew that if he created lucifer, lucifer would betray god for jealousy, and call god a tyrant as a cover
    5) If god simply did not make lucifer, he would be a tyrant
    6) God makes lucifer...betrayal, and then super sized smack down!
    7) God knows that man will fail to obey his command
    8) If god simply doesnt make man, then satan would be right that hes a tyrant
    9) God makes man, without the knowledge of good and evil, but with free will.
    10) God makes the tree, knowing full well what would happen
    11) God tells man "dont eat fruit". They then proceed to eat it.
    12) Bam Bam Boom.
    13) God proved that he was not a tyrant, but now man is in sin.
    14) God knew this all along, so he planned to send jesus to die for our sins

    Makes sense? i mean, scripture as far as i know doesnt support half of this, but it does make more sense than others...
    CHANGE is what the world awaits
    Could there be Peace or War?
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  • #31
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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackturtle View Post
    4) God knew that if he created lucifer, lucifer would betray god for jealousy, and call god a tyrant as a cover
    5) If god simply did not make lucifer, he would be a tyrant
    And here in lies the problem with his theory.

    God being love could never be a tyrant. There is no point in creating lucifer. Man could have still had freewill and still sinned without ever needing a lucifer figure.

    Lucifer is the personification of evil and nothing more. A scape goat for man to justify when man does X that is immoral.

    7) God knows that man will fail to obey his command
    Without Satan this is still possible under the idea of freewill making satan completely redundant.

    8) If god simply doesnt make man, then satan would be right that hes a tyrant
    No that just makes God lonely.


    9) God makes man, without the knowledge of good and evil, but with free will.
    10) God makes the tree, knowing full well what would happen
    Because God is an idiot?


    11) God tells man "dont eat fruit". They then proceed to eat it.
    12) Bam Bam Boom.
    13) God proved that he was not a tyrant, but now man is in sin.
    14) God knew this all along, so he planned to send jesus to die for our sins
    Bam bam boom god proves that he is certainly not all knowing and possibly stupid. If God never makes the tree (assuming this isn't all allegory anyway....)then there would be no apples to eat with worldly knowledge. Jesus is reduced to nothing more than a waste of life for no good reason.

    i mean, scripture as far as i know doesnt support half of this
    all too true.

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  • #32
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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by bobloblaw View Post
    In regard to the recently raised issues...

    I think that the only ways to interpret the biblical story are:

    • God actually did not want them to eat from the tree, and was angry when they did.
    • (Clearly contradicted by Gods omnipotence)
  • The tree and snake were placed to test Adam and Eve.
  • This brings up the issue of them not knowing good from evil before eating from the tree... So what was being tested?
  • God was trying to trick Adam and Eve, and the snake was trying to help them (yes, some people have believed this)
  • As a metaphor, with the lesson/meaning being: Ignorance is bliss. (I think that this way makes the most sense.)
  • Before Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, they did not see the evil and injustice around them because they had no knowledge of good and evil.
  • This is like a version of Plato's Allegory of the Cave
  • I guess I should explain what I mean. The basic idea of the allegory of the cave is that all people are trapped in the physical world, but do not know it. Once they have seen the "Ideal World", everything in the physical world seems infinitely worse to them. (For a better explanation see Wikipedia or this video
  • OR: God gave them a choice. They could either live blissfully and ignorant or they could gain knowledge and have to earn happiness.


  • I also want to point out that the snake doesn't really make sense in the story because Jews don't believe in "the devil".

    The problem is that our culture has evolved to the point that we take stories like this literally. People think that if they do not believe every facet of these stories, they will go to hell, when they should be using these stories for moral and philosophical lessons.
    You are rather simply assuming a literal interpretation by all Christians and therein lies your fault.

    You are also over-thinking it.

    It is not about God -- it is about man wanting to be like God and deciding disobey God. The result: Evil, death, the loss of paradise.

    Quite simple really. I taught this to my children when they were like 4 years old.

    When you get killed in your video games, do you blame the programmer or do you blame yourself or your joystick? By following your logic -- the fault lies with the programmer.
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  • #33
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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    You are also over-thinking it.
    So, as a religious person, do you make it a point not to think too much?
    Clearly, it's not literal... unless you don't believe in evolution. So it has to be metaphorical, and why accept that the metaphor means exactly what you are told it means? There are many explanations that are much more logical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    It is not about God -- it is about man wanting to be like God and deciding disobey God. The result: Evil, death, the loss of paradise.
    Even if you interpret it this way, you still have the problem: Was it a test? If it was wouldn't it still raise the issue of them not knowing good from evil until they had eaten from "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil"?


    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Quite simple really. I taught this to my children when they were like 4 years old.
    Really? Do you also teach your children never to question authority? Or only never to question religious authority? Great parenting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    When you get killed in your video games, do you blame the programmer or do you blame yourself or your joystick?
    Let's try a different analogy:
    Say you have a video game and you know the programmer. It's brand new and the programmer is sitting next to you as you play. He says, "Don't eat that apple!". You walk up to the apple and, not knowing the controls (ie Adam and Eve not knowing good from evil) eat the apple. Not only do you lose the game, but the programmer decides not to release the game and instead releases a different crappy game, in which the player must undergo suffering in order to play at all.

  • #34
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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by bobloblaw View Post
    So, as a religious person, do you make it a point not to think too much?
    First, you are assuming I am "religious" -- whatever that means. Personally I choose to try to work on my faith over my religion.

    No, I make it a point to think enough, not over-think and keep an open-mind while at the same time not having it be so open my brains don't fall out...

    But it appears you make it a point to try to overthink things.

    Since you are new here, I will ignore the ad hom attack.

    In PMs you have accused me of being intolerant -- yet judging from your posts, and your op compared to your other statements expressed -- I think one can quite safely assume that you are the one who is intolerant of anyone who believes in God, and that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead.

    God granted us free-will. Deal with it.

    AND FYI -- to anyone who believes at least some Jews do not believe in a Satan-like being (Judiasm is an ethnicity, cultural identity and a religion)

    Read the Book of Enoch.
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  • #35
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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Personally I choose to try to work on my faith over my religion.
    I have no idea what you mean by this, but if you want to you can change what I said to "So, as a person with faith, do you make it a point not to think too much?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    But it appears you make it a point to try to overthink things.
    I don't see how one could ever think too much, unless one is trying to avoid the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    In PMs you have accused me of being intolerant -- yet judging from your posts, and your op compared to your other statements expressed -- I think one can quite safely assume that you are the one who is intolerant of anyone who believes in God, and that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead.
    If calling someone intolerant is against the rules, you are clearly breaking them as well. You have also called me ignorant. I am not intolerant of people who believe in God and I have never even mentioned Jesus's resurrection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    God granted us free-will. Deal with it.
    Do you mean that I shouldn't tell people that they are wrong because God has given them the freedom to believe what they want? Strange statement for a site dedicated to debating.

    Please do not make this thread about the issues you have with me personally.

    Try to stick to the topic and please respond to my last post.

  • #36
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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    AND FYI -- to anyone who believes at least some Jews do not believe in a Satan-like being (Judiasm is an ethnicity, cultural identity and a religion)

    Read the Book of Enoch.
    More Ethiopian garbage from you eh?

    The Ethiopian church is basically the onyl people that even use this book. Like I said....if you want to know about the devil....you have to go OUTSIDE the Bible. And the Book of Enoch is OUTSIDE the Bible.

    Attributed to Noah's greats grand father.....yet.....written around 170 BC. It;s much more likely a work of literature used, as is typical, to fill in back stories.

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  • #37
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    Re: Original Sin

    Original sin was used by the church make people feel like they had something wrong with them, by praying on natural human emotions. Churches then tell you that only they have the ability to save you. This is how churches get people hooked.

    The story of Jesus (whcich is connected to original sin) states that Jesus died for our sins so you must praise Jesus to get into heaven. This means that Jesus already did all the hard work, you just need to praise him. The belief is cowardly, and for the lazy. The Original Church made up that part of the story for their own corrupt reasons.

    God would not make us sinned and then damn us for it. I do not consider the original sin story as true, because it has a talking snake in it, but there must have been a first sin either way so it doesn't matter. As for the Jesus Christ savior story, this disgusts me with it's obvious corruption and I do not consider that part true ot christian in any way.

  • #38
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    Re: Original Sin

    Ok, I'd like to clear a few things up...

    Firstly, there is no 'apple' it's a 'fruit' in the original hebrew, the 'apple' word was a later reinterpretation by christians in the middle ages to make their devout masses wary of worship of faiths that relate to apple-inclusive goddess worship i.e. Athena etc... (there are others that escape my memory for the moment).

    Secondly, the nature of the devil in the garden of eden story is strange... why would God allow the 'devil' to be an influence at all? It doesn't make sense, unless God intended for the snake to be a cause, this makes God out to be one who (if original sin is to be accepted), a God that wishes for his creations to be damned from their birth, only redeemable through spiritual faith. I would argue that this contradicts the supposed benevolent nature of God.

    Some would argue that God has a split personality and it his non-benevolent side that is on show... but it doesn't make sense that he would act through a secondary agent, i.e. the snake. I know that there will be theists who would argue that the methods of God transcend human understanding, but this is counter intuitive to our understanding of God... Why would we undertake rules, and guidance from a book written by a deity whos methods we cannot and interpreted by fallible humans? This seems to be extremely counter-intuitive.

    It would seem that it is contrary not only to our own human nature, but also to the spiritual well being of believers as it has them feeling themselves to be inferior unless certain deeds and a particular form of faith is employed, aka, the form of faith that says that it is the only waqy to salvation...

    Not my own view of it, but one way it can be argued...

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    Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakkyosai View Post
    Firstly, there is no 'apple' it's a 'fruit' in the original hebrew, the 'apple' word was a later reinterpretation by christians in the middle ages to make their devout masses wary of worship of faiths that relate to apple-inclusive goddess worship i.e. Athena etc... (there are others that escape my memory for the moment).
    Interesting... but not surprising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakkyosai View Post
    Secondly, the nature of the devil in the garden of eden story is strange... why would God allow the 'devil' to be an influence at all? It doesn't make sense, unless God intended for the snake to be a cause, this makes God out to be one who (if original sin is to be accepted), a God that wishes for his creations to be damned from their birth, only redeemable through spiritual faith. I would argue that this contradicts the supposed benevolent nature of God.
    This is really a contradiction in belief in the devil at all.
    Any one out there who believes in the devil care to defend the logic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakkyosai View Post
    Why would we undertake rules, and guidance from a book written by a deity whos methods we cannot and interpreted by fallible humans? This seems to be extremely counter-intuitive.
    Good way of putting this. Why would we believe in a God with illogical morals?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakkyosai View Post
    I know that there will be theists who would argue that the methods of God transcend human understanding
    Very true. Actually, this argument has made me frustrated outside of ODN before, so I think I've started a new thread on it here

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