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View Poll Results: Which position was better argued

Voters
8. This poll is closed
  • Pro-Life

    2 25.00%
  • Pro-Choice

    6 75.00%
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Results 21 to 40 of 72
  1. #21
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    I think the worst part of this issue is that somehow, it got rolled into a woman's rights issue. A woman just went to jail because she made her child kill his pet hamster with a hammer. Went to jail over a dead hamster. Yet, a woman can claim to have a fundamental right to commit abortion which many people probably view as an act which is inherently worse than killing a hamster.

    I am not coming out as pro-choice or non-pro-choice. I don't really care. I do believe it should be a state's right issue. In states where people believe abortion is murder, it should be illegal. In states where people don't have that belief, it should be legal. I suspect most states would have some middle ground where abortion would be legal, but restricted. Suicide is illegal. Taking certain drugs is illegal. Why isn't that protected by my right to control my own body? Abortion is a moral issue of which many people disagree.

    The beautiful thing abut this country was that different views could find a place to be, to live. You didn't have to conform to a single entity's views. The federal govt largely stayed out of our lives, especially our bedrooms. As federalism erodes, fewer and fewer people gain more and more power. So, we seem to have a competing interest. One supposed to right to privacy versus creeping tyranny which will undoubtedly lead to less privacy for all of us.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  2. #22
    Fiona
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I am not coming out as pro-choice or non-pro-choice. I don't really care. I do believe it should be a state's right issue. In states where people believe abortion is murder, it should be illegal. In states where people don't have that belief, it should be legal. I suspect most states would have some middle ground where abortion would be legal, but restricted. Suicide is illegal. Taking certain drugs is illegal. Why isn't that protected by my right to control my own body? Abortion is a moral issue of which many people disagree.
    The problem is, should we believe that abortion is wrong or not? I think that's what we are trying to debate right now. I myself is on the side of abortion, as long as the baby is not voluntarily aborted at a very late stage. My opinion of morality lies on the amount of suffering a particular act would subject an object to, take the example of hamster, you kill it, you would create a huge amount of suffering whereas aborting the fetus won't cause any suffering by any definition to the fetus, since it's not a independent and thinking entity.

  3. #23
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
    The problem is, should we believe that abortion is wrong or not? I think that's what we are trying to debate right now. I myself is on the side of abortion, as long as the baby is not voluntarily aborted at a very late stage. My opinion of morality lies on the amount of suffering a particular act would subject an object to, take the example of hamster, you kill it, you would create a huge amount of suffering whereas aborting the fetus won't cause any suffering by any definition to the fetus, since it's not a independent and thinking entity.
    Accepting that the debate is as you describe it...

    Your take is that the morality of killing (in this case abortion) should be based on suffering. In other words as suffering increases ---> morality decreases.
    You have claimed this is how you judge the morality of a killing. So, by your standards, killing quickly and in a painless manner is perfectly moral. So long as the victim has not suffered, the act of murder has been done morally. If the person is heavily drugged and then killed, you would view that as perfectly moral. Hopefully, you see the flaw in your moral reasoning. It is obviously lacking in many, many ways. While I understand how suffering can be a factor, I don't believe it is the only factor one could reasonably use.

    Returning to my original point, though, we see the complexity of attempting to cast this behavior as immoral or moral. This is why I oppose it as a federal issue. Such a complex moral issue should be respected by all moral sides because of its complexity. Our union was designed to intergrate many different moral views by offering religious freedom on a national/federal level while also allowing increased religious/moral intrusion at a local level (see the Dansbury letters from Thomas Jefferson).

    We force a certain moral/religious absolutism when we attempt to mandate a certain moral view from the federal level. Anti and pro abortion camps wouldn't have as much support/influence/motivation if they were merely fighting local issues. Furthermore, it would make such activism almost moot. It would end the pitting of small towns against large and wealthy lawyers working on behalf of such organizations as the Mormon Church or the ACLU. Frankly, it would end a lot of the divisiveness this country is experiencing right now.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  4. #24
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchard View Post
    (man, I get a second to post, wonderufl)
    Right. at least 50% of babies aborted are girls, and nobody should be allowed to control what happens to them, least of all some abortion doctor (most of whom are male)
    Alright, you can't really state the given gender of the fetus and mark this discussion as slightly raciest because all fetuses start as a female. When they progress, that's when we can finally see the resulted gender. That's why scans are held off for so long. So this number of 50% that you've given, may well be incorrect in the long run.
    And even if the majority was female, it doesn't really matter. The main subject here is that something living is being subjected to death. Race has no meaning here, so to bring it up has no argument. It merely states a theory.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by djlee6 View Post
    Alright, you can't really state the given gender of the fetus and mark this discussion as slightly raciest because all fetuses start as a female. When they progress, that's when we can finally see the resulted gender. That's why scans are held off for so long. So this number of 50% that you've given, may well be incorrect in the long run.
    And even if the majority was female, it doesn't really matter. The main subject here is that something living is being subjected to death. Race has no meaning here, so to bring it up has no argument. It merely states a theory.
    Racist? Do you mean sexist?

  6. #26
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Women deserve the right to their un-born children. A fetus is not alive until its born and becomes a newborn infant. You cant kill something thats not dead. I think the government denying women the right to an abortion, is denying them thier pursuit of happyness, if a women doesnt want to have a baby no one should force her to.

  7. #27
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAdams View Post
    Women deserve the right to their un-born children. A fetus is not alive until its born and becomes a newborn infant. You cant kill something thats not dead. I think the government denying women the right to an abortion, is denying them thier pursuit of happyness, if a women doesnt want to have a baby no one should force her to.
    Actually, a fetus IS alive, but you can argue that it isn't a person until it is born. It is alive, because if it were not, it would never be born. Something which is not alive cannot grow and mature.

    I too believe that women should have the right to an abortion. Banning it would simply cause too many problems.
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  8. #28
    lenny586
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Abortion being illegal would be an outrageuous violation of a womens liberty.
    Why would you not let her decide if she can provide for the baby or not?
    If some one were to force a decision upon a woman would they really be doing that poor infant a favour?
    we have all seen the single mothers that cannot afford much and cannot give there kids everything they would like to. if the law were to force misery and regret upon mothers and children, which part of that would be justice?

  9. #29
    Raeyan
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    ABORTION SHOULDN'T BE LEGALIZED.
    but first, what is abortion? aborting means taking away innocent lives. it is crime ladies and gentlemen, it should be remained illegal and not to be legalized.
    in the status quo, abortion has already been rampant, burt first why do women commit abortion? is abortion good for the society? what factors are to be considered and to be affected.
    ist point: abortion isnt just a crime, but a sin! therefore it is contradicting the moral aspects. it is unquestionable that all of the creatures are created by the almighty, the almighty has the only authority to make and to take lives. abortion is simply taking away lives, rather taking away innocent lives.
    going to my second point, does abortion help in lessening the population of ones country? it may and may not as well. the growing of population is for prevention and abortion is not the answer of course. for in abortion life is already present. lessening the population is for prevention, it before life not when life is already present.

    therefore legalizing abortion is just like putting blood in our hands. staining our humanity and our credibility for we don't have the authority to take away lives.
    abortion is a big no! GIVE CHANCE TO LIFE, FIGHT ABORTION. with this, i rest my case.

  10. #30
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    ABORTION SHOULDN'T BE LEGALIZED.
    but first, what is abortion? aborting means taking away innocent lives. it is crime ladies and gentlemen, it should be remained illegal and not to be legalized.
    in the status quo, abortion has already been rampant, burt first why do women commit abortion? is abortion good for the society? what factors are to be considered and to be affected.
    ist point: abortion isnt just a crime, but a sin! therefore it is contradicting the moral aspects. it is unquestionable that all of the creatures are created by the almighty, the almighty has the only authority to make and to take lives. abortion is simply taking away lives, rather taking away innocent lives.
    going to my second point, does abortion help in lessening the population of ones country? it may and may not as well. the growing of population is for prevention and abortion is not the answer of course. for in abortion life is already present. lessening the population is for prevention, it before life not when life is already present.

    therefore legalizing abortion is just like putting blood in our hands. staining our humanity and our credibility for we don't have the authority to take away lives.
    abortion is a big no! GIVE CHANCE TO LIFE, FIGHT ABORTION. with this, i rest my case.
    Would you still hold this position if your wife is gang raped and impregnated by one of the rapists?
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  11. #31
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    ABORTION SHOULDN'T BE LEGALIZED.
    but first, what is abortion? aborting means taking away innocent lives. it is crime ladies and gentlemen, it should be remained illegal and not to be legalized.
    in the status quo, abortion has already been rampant, burt first why do women commit abortion? is abortion good for the society? what factors are to be considered and to be affected.
    ist point: abortion isnt just a crime, but a sin! therefore it is contradicting the moral aspects. it is unquestionable that all of the creatures are created by the almighty, the almighty has the only authority to make and to take lives. abortion is simply taking away lives, rather taking away innocent lives.
    going to my second point, does abortion help in lessening the population of ones country? it may and may not as well. the growing of population is for prevention and abortion is not the answer of course. for in abortion life is already present. lessening the population is for prevention, it before life not when life is already present.

    therefore legalizing abortion is just like putting blood in our hands. staining our humanity and our credibility for we don't have the authority to take away lives.
    abortion is a big no! GIVE CHANCE TO LIFE, FIGHT ABORTION. with this, i rest my case.
    Define innocent.
    You claim it takes away innocent lives - very convenient for you to label a clump of cells as 'innocent' huh?

    Abortion is not a crime, you claim it is. It is legal and most definately not a crime. This is a basic fact.

    You are using God to justify your argument. God knows that a woman will have an abortion even before she becomes pregnant - see the thread entitled 'God and Homosexuality' - therefore, if God knows she will have an abortion, why does he allow her to get pregnant?

    Also, what have you done to support those single mothers struggling to get by on welfare payments? Do you offer financial assistance to those women who want to keep their babies, but cannot afford them?

    Or are you a typical conservative who opposes welfare for single mums and washes their hands once a baby is born?
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  12. #32
    Raeyan
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    Would you still hold this position if your wife is gang raped and impregnated by one of the rapists?
    that case is indeed possible, but we must hold on to faith and hope. we should give chance to life. if that woman is ganged rape and have her impegnated and if she commits abortion then she would be as dirty as the persons who raped her.

    ---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Define innocent.
    You claim it takes away innocent lives - very convenient for you to label a clump of cells as 'innocent' huh?

    Abortion is not a crime, you claim it is. It is legal and most definately not a crime. This is a basic fact.

    You are using God to justify your argument. God knows that a woman will have an abortion even before she becomes pregnant - see the thread entitled 'God and Homosexuality' - therefore, if God knows she will have an abortion, why does he allow her to get pregnant?

    Also, what have you done to support those single mothers struggling to get by on welfare payments? Do you offer financial assistance to those women who want to keep their babies, but cannot afford them?

    Or are you a typical conservative who opposes welfare for single mums and washes their hands once a baby is born?

    first, allow me to rebut your point when u said that abortion is not a crime. what context are you following? that's haste generalization for in other countries abortion is illegal therefore it is already a crime. and even if it's not a crime, it's still a SIN.

    im not using God to justify my points, you have mentioned the fact that God knows that a woman will commit abortion. again that's false. simply becaus if we focus on the moral aspect abortion is a sin. God allows temptation and if you say that, u are as well sayong that God is responsible for every decision that the people are wrong. that's a wrong belief for we are the author of our lives, God is the creator. in whole day of living decision making always come.

    pregnancy is part of a woman's life and it's her fate for this world always comes with challenges.

    ---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Define innocent.
    You claim it takes away innocent lives - very convenient for you to label a clump of cells as 'innocent' huh?

    Abortion is not a crime, you claim it is. It is legal and most definately not a crime. This is a basic fact.

    You are using God to justify your argument. God knows that a woman will have an abortion even before she becomes pregnant - see the thread entitled 'God and Homosexuality' - therefore, if God knows she will have an abortion, why does he allow her to get pregnant?

    Also, what have you done to support those single mothers struggling to get by on welfare payments? Do you offer financial assistance to those women who want to keep their babies, but cannot afford them?

    Or are you a typical conservative who opposes welfare for single mums and washes their hands once a baby is born?

    are u saying that it is just a clump of cells inside awomans womb? that's definitely false, for even cells are form of life as well, anyway it is already life when it is formed inside a womb already, innocent for that life was not given a chance to see the world, for that life was not able to get and to learn anything out of this world.

    allow me to rebut your point when u said that abortion is not a crime. what context are you following? that's haste generalization for in other countries abortion is illegal therefore it is already a crime. and even if it's not a crime, it's still a SIN.

    im not using God to justify my points, you have mentioned the fact that God knows that a woman will commit abortion. again that's false. simply becaus if we focus on the moral aspect abortion is a sin. God allows temptation and if you say that, u are as well sayong that God is responsible for every decision that the people are wrong. that's a wrong belief for we are the author of our lives, God is the creator. in whole day of living decision making always come.

    pregnancy is part of a woman's life and it's her fate for this world always comes with challenges.

  13. #33
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    are u saying that it is just a clump of cells inside awomans womb?
    Yes, I am, because that is what we are. That fertilised egg is simple a bunch of cells which will grow and mature over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    that's definitely false, for even cells are form of life as well, anyway it is already life when it is formed inside a womb already, innocent for that life was not given a chance to see the world, for that life was not able to get and to learn anything out of this world.
    You are forgetting that someone else is also innocent - the woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    allow me to rebut your point when u said that abortion is not a crime. what context are you following? that's haste generalization for in other countries abortion is illegal therefore it is already a crime.
    Abortion is not a crime. I am referring to the laws in my own country and the laws in the US, as I believe most of ODN's members reside in the States.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    and even if it's not a crime, it's still a SIN.
    Proof - besides your personal opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    im not using God to justify my points,
    No?

    it is unquestionable that all of the creatures are created by the almighty,
    the almighty has the only authority to make and to take lives.
    Seems obvious to me how you arrive at your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    you have mentioned the fact that God knows that a woman will commit abortion. again that's false.
    Read the thread I directed you to - you mean that God has no clue at all what you are going to do tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    simply becaus if we focus on the moral aspect abortion is a sin.
    In your opinion. Again, this is hardly proof. I don't consider abortion a sin - what makes you right, and me wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    God allows temptation and if you say that, u are as well sayong that God is responsible for every decision that the people are wrong. that's a wrong belief for we are the author of our lives, God is the creator. in whole day of living decision making always come.
    Indeed, God is responsible. Because God knows the decisions we will make, before we have made them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    pregnancy is part of a woman's life and it's her fate for this world always comes with challenges.
    So she should just suffer the consequences and become a baby making machine because a bunch of men are desperate for control over her uterus?

    Righto.
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  14. #34
    Raeyan
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Yes, I am, because that is what we are. That fertilised egg is simple a bunch of cells which will grow and mature over time.



    You are forgetting that someone else is also innocent - the woman.



    Abortion is not a crime. I am referring to the laws in my own country and the laws in the US, as I believe most of ODN's members reside in the States.



    Proof - besides your personal opinion?



    No?





    Seems obvious to me how you arrive at your opinion.



    Read the thread I directed you to - you mean that God has no clue at all what you are going to do tomorrow?



    In your opinion. Again, this is hardly proof. I don't consider abortion a sin - what makes you right, and me wrong?



    Indeed, God is responsible. Because God knows the decisions we will make, before we have made them.



    So she should just suffer the consequences and become a baby making machine because a bunch of men are desperate for control over her uterus?

    Righto.


    the woman herself, is no longer innocent, if the woman is innocent how come that abortion entered her mind? abortion is a big thing, it not just like playing barbie dolls at home.

    indeed, that's haste generalization for you are referring to the laws of your country alone. you have to consider the fact that not just people from the UNITED STATES or wherever ae using this site.

    im not saying that God has no clue about what life's gonna be, for if that would be the case, why do we have to make decisions if we know that God is directing our lives. allow me to tell you that God's grace is number 1 and second is the persons perseverance and the persons own will in doing something. God is not responsible it would the person for it is not God who will experience the pros and cons of life. it is us.

    that's the woman's discretion if she would want to be a baby making machine.

  15. #35
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Of course the woman is innocent. Thinking about an abortion makes her guilty of nothing, expect in your mind.
    Abortion is a big thing to those who oppose it, but it's a common procedure and a minor one. You could say it's as common as having a tooth pulled.

    I am not going to say that abortion is legal and illegal. I am posting from a country in which abortion is legal, so I go by what my country says. Most countries allow abortions anyway.

    I don't believe we make decisions. We cant make any decisions when the decision we make is already mapped out.

    Women have abortions either because they can't afford a baby, or they have children already. They may be too young, they may be in the middle of a career, they may be at school, they may have been the victim of a sexual assault.
    It is up to her if she wishes to carry a child to term, not you. Lifers want to make women into baby making machines, women want the right to choose that for themselves.
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  16. #36
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    that case is indeed possible, but we must hold on to faith and hope.
    What exactly do you have faith in? What exactly are you hoping for? The woman has already been gang raped, she has already been impregnated against her will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raeyan View Post
    we should give chance to life. if that woman is ganged rape and have her impegnated and if she commits abortion then she would be as dirty as the persons who raped her.
    As far as I'm concerned (and this is my official stance on the subject, I've never actually participated in one of these debates before) when the fetus can survive outside the womb, only then must abortion not happen. Which I think is around 24-26 weeks, so abortion up to that point, is acceptable in my book.

    In who's eyes is she dirty Raeyan? Define dirty for me please. Cheers.
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  17. #37
    Imrightsorry
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Yes I agree with you but then again I also disagree. If you are stupid enough to have sex, and not use protection and you get pregnant abortion should not be an option, you should have to suck it up...You're the one that got yourself into that mess. But if you have been raped and you get pregnant from that, then you should have the choice of abortion.

  18. #38
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imrightsorry View Post
    Yes I agree with you but then again I also disagree. If you are stupid enough to have sex, and not use protection and you get pregnant abortion should not be an option, you should have to suck it up...You're the one that got yourself into that mess. But if you have been raped and you get pregnant from that, then you should have the choice of abortion.
    Why?

    It seems like you are approaching pregnancy and child-bearing as a punishment for the woman; you make it dependent on her intention.

    But, as far as I can see, those who object to abortion, base that objection on a claim that it's wrong to destroy a potential life (ie, fetus). Well, if we want to protect the fetus then what difference does it make whether the woman was raped or not? It's not the fetus's fault. Why should its protection be contingent on the woman's intentions?
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  19. #39
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imrightsorry View Post
    Yes I agree with you but then again I also disagree. If you are stupid enough to have sex, and not use protection and you get pregnant abortion should not be an option, you should have to suck it up...You're the one that got yourself into that mess. But if you have been raped and you get pregnant from that, then you should have the choice of abortion.
    I agree that women who have sex and don't bother to use protection are stupid, but I don't believe they should be punished because they made a silly decision.

    As for your saying that rape victims could get abortions...what is stopping any women from claiming she was raped? How do you determine which women are telling the truth and which are not?
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Without reading any of the many many threads, here's my opinion. Abortion is wrong. And illegal in the sense that no one person has the right to take a life. But those who a pro choice might say that it really isn't a life, because the embryo is not fully developed and maturity has not been reached. So let me ask this... at what point does it make it NOT ok to abort a pregnancy? 3 months? 4, 5 ? where is the line drawn between murder, and "ok" abortion?

 

 
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