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View Poll Results: Which position was better argued

Voters
8. This poll is closed
  • Pro-Life

    2 25.00%
  • Pro-Choice

    6 75.00%
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  1. #1
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    Abortion should be illegal.

    Discussion for the Formal Debate --> Abortion should/should not be illegal.

    Ok, basic introduction, and I suppose it's ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchard

    I believe that abortion (except to save the life of the mother) should be illegal for two reasons. It is immoral, and its legality is harmful to society.
    Why do you think its legality harmful to society? Remember, this is a debate, not a discussion. In order for you to convince us and turn us around to your POV, you need to state clearly and in detail. You also need to make sure that you’re not leaving us with topics, because if you do, debate itself becomes….stale. The 2 topics here are excellent, but one of them is just barely developed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchard
    I believe that all human beings have a right to life. This belief is reasonable and widely held. Life is postulated in the United States Declaration of Independence as being one of the 'inalienable rights' that all men are endowed with.
    Additionally, I believe that life is the highest right, or at least more important that the alleged “women's right to choose.” This can be seen because, no matter what you believe, murdering a woman is obviously a far worse crime than not allowing her to have an abortion. Or to use an alternate illustration: if a rational woman had to choose between not having an abortion and being killed, she'd choose the former.
    Embryos are living humans beings. They sufficiently display the scientific properties of life, and possess a unique set of human DNA, making them unique persons. This is the best definition because any alternate definition will either include those obviously not human beings, exclude those who obviously are, or suffer from other problems.
    Right. But you need to think about something. When someone aborts a pregnancy, it usually means that the person either is not ready for the baby, (financially, mentally, physically, or even time wise) or has no want of the baby at all. Now, let’s look a bit deeper. If indeed abortion becomes illegal, orphanages would become overloaded. I mean, orphanages now, unless HEAVILY funded, are struggling. They can just barely feed the children 3 meals a day and provide necessary heating and such. But now, if abortion was completely ILLEGAL, then the orphanage situation would dip, dive, and collapse. With now about 1.3 million abortions every year in the US alone, you could probably see what kind of a disaster this would lead to.
    So now, we’ve established that, but let’s see what would happen after some more time. Sure, some parents will keep their children. And perhaps abortion does indeed become illegal. Now, with a mother who may have no time on her hands, no money, and no mental willingness to take care of a child, think how miserable the child AND the parent would be. In fact, the child will probably have not much of a future and become an impoverished individual, perhaps except for a few lucky cases.
    (Source : http://prolifeaction.org/faq/abortion.htm#yearly)

    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchard
    If embryos are human beings that have a right to life, it follows that abortion is immoral and should be illegal, since the government's duty is ultimately to protect the innocent.
    No… A government’s duty is not to protect the innocent, but to 'align' its people and carry the country rather than letting it fall into anarchy. A government is something that puts order into our society and community, which EVENTUALLY links up with the protection of people through national law.
    But that national law is often altered by the PEOPLE. Thus, in a democratic community, a government technically must be controlled by public opinion. And at this moment, many root for abortion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchard
    Abortion is harmful socially because it eliminates male accountability. With abortion illegal, males have to think twice about engaging in promiscuous behavior because it might translate into eighteen years of child support payments. With abortion legal, the males' accountability is reduced to a couple hundred bucks for an abortion. The legality of abortion contributes to promiscuity, which is unhealthy because it contributes to a multitude of problems including the spread of STD's. Legal abortion is bad for society is well as immoral.
    Well, firstly, you know, people around their late teens enjoy sex. (roll eyes)*. So I don’t really think that’s going to stop them. Also, I think that STD’s are something that a person has to be wary of, not only for themselves, but for their partner as well. I mean, if you have STD’s you just shouldn’t even try.
    But, hell yes, abortion does indeed take away male accountability. And It also instills (sometimes) a sort of false security in females as well.
    I mean, I may have sounded a bit on the offense here, but I think your argument can go a long way.

    Best of luck.
    Last edited by Comtesse; May 31st, 2009 at 05:27 PM.
    Nun, Volk, steh' auf, und Sturm, brich' los!

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    ..:: ( Comtesse ) ::..

  2. #2
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    I'm not a regular here and so am not sure exactly what this discussion thingy involves, am I expected to respond to what you've posted here or what?

    I will say about the 'harmful to society' bit that that was just my thesis, I elaborate farther down regarding the elimination of male accountability. I originally had another argument but I thought the debate would be shorter and clearer without it. Thanks for your wellwishing.

  3. #3
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    You can respond here if you like. I was just saying also, on my first paragraph, that you had 2 very good points, but one of them wasn't very developed. That's all. But I'm sure you will put up an excellent response.

    And, this isn't only directed to you, Twitchard, (I wanted to call you Twit for shot, because we all have short nicknames here, but Twit kinda sounds offensive :/) but to all anti - abortionists. Many of you argue that it's an inalienable right to life. Sure, of course it is. But, as the situation I pointed out before, if indeed the mother who has no time, money, and ability to take care of a child gives birth, then in fact, the event defies two inalienable rights, not one.

    1) Liberty

    The mother will need to take good care of her infant. In this way, her liberty is partially lost, especially if she's not financially ready for one. (Or time wise.) If she's still in school, she won't have enough time to do both - thus, she will have to either relinquish the child over to the orphanage or stop school - or at least drop a few classes. Furthermore, she'll need to find a stable job.

    2) Pursuit of happiness

    Taking from the concept above as well, people will lose this right if they have an unwanted and unready child. People will need to work like slaves and devote themselves entirely to their child. Have you seen the movie Pursuit of Happiness? I urge you to. It's a good story about what I'm explaining. Sure, it has a happy ending. But it's a one out of million story.

    And also, you need to realize that many who want to abort don't even have stable jobs yet, nor even have a house of their own.
    Nun, Volk, steh' auf, und Sturm, brich' los!

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    ..:: ( Comtesse ) ::..

  4. #4
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Go ahead call me Twit ;-).

    To respond to the liberty and pursuit of happiness, as I stated in my post, life is the highest right. If you asked the mother "would you like me to kill you or would you like to take care of a child," (or asked the child "would you like to die or live an impoverished life"), the rational choice is always the latter. The loss of liberty and ability to pursue happiness is regrettable but simply doesn't have enough moral bearing to outweigh.

    I'd respond to more of your posts, but I've decided not to bring up any new arguments because I'm saving them for my true opponent.

  5. #5
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Dan Bern put it best (from the song President) "Nobody tells a girl how to treat her body, least of all some man".
    "The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those, who, in times of great moral crisis, reserve their neutrality."-Dante

    !@#$%^&*()_+Loller65+_()*&^%$#@!

  6. #6
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    (man, I get a second to post, wonderufl)
    Right. at least 50% of babies aborted are girls, and nobody should be allowed to control what happens to them, least of all some abortion doctor (most of whom are male)

  7. #7
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    No. The "girl" is the pregnant woman and the "man" is the government who is trying to illegalize abortion. What I'm basically saying is that if a girl wants to get an abortion, she should have the right to an abortion.
    "The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those, who, in times of great moral crisis, reserve their neutrality."-Dante

    !@#$%^&*()_+Loller65+_()*&^%$#@!

  8. #8
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchard View Post
    I'm not a regular here and so am not sure exactly what this discussion thingy involves, am I expected to respond to what you've posted here or what?
    The discussion section of debate threads is generally for commenting on the debate rather than creating a separate argument thread. If someone for example has a bone to pick with a particularly weak part of the case or is impressed by the clarity or strength of an argument. You are not expected to participate and respond but you can if you wish. As you said however, I'd leave getting meaty in here till the formal end of the other debate on the grounds you don't want to give too much of your case away before you post it in there.

    EDIT: The only official guidelines to be followed are these from the how to use this forum thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem View Post
    The discussion thread is for spectators to post their comments on the debate.
    (Click the quote tag to be directed to the post or it's stickied in the main forum.)

    As such you are not expected to have to respond to everyone who wants to queery your or your opponents posts. But as I said, there is no rule against it so feel free to do so...
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
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  9. #9
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Agreed,

    I'll disclaim that I did not read this thread before my first response, and that my using the argument of Liberty, was not prompted by Comtesse. This thread should discuss the performance of the debate after the fact, and not feed it inadvertently,

    In fact, I will close this thread till the debate is over if if it becomes a problem. Thank you for understanding.

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  10. #10
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Discussion on the debate can now resume in this thread.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
    - Wayne Gretzky

  11. #11
    DevilsAdvocate
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Abortion should be illegal because it is not ok to just create a life and take it away as you please. People would most definately think twice about their actions if abortion were illegal. Also, to say the illegal abortions would lead to overcrowded orphanages is most definately inaccurate because, there are hundreds of families waiting to adopt children. Also, most people have family members, or even in some cases, the man will take on the child. There are plenty of options other than abortion. If you are not ready for children, dont have unprotected sex.

    PS This is my first time on this forum. Forgive me.
    Last edited by MindTrap028; June 23rd, 2009 at 06:57 PM. Reason: post moved

  12. #12
    Wordstotell
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal is an opinion not a fact

    the thought that abortion should be illegal is something that really can only be decided by voting it can't be proven with facts. this makes it an opinion and so if you find it to be against morals or not right because you think it harms society, than you need to think about who's morals and which society. because just because thats how it is with you does not mean your choice of words matches to everyone every where in America or the world. Also, thoughts about abortion come from religion most of the time, so just because someone finds it against thier religion doesn't mean they can make it illegal to support thier religion. because it doesn't stand for the entire society. plus it is scientifically proven that life does not start until later on in the process when the baby is about to be born. and if you think i am saying this because i am an athiest, your wrong because I am christian and this is my opinion which can be supported on several different points i make.

  13. #13
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    Smile Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
    Abortion should be illegal because it is not ok to just create a life and take it away as you please. People would most definately think twice about their actions if abortion were illegal. Also, to say the illegal abortions would lead to overcrowded orphanages is most definately inaccurate because, there are hundreds of families waiting to adopt children. Also, most people have family members, or even in some cases, the man will take on the child. There are plenty of options other than abortion. If you are not ready for children, dont have unprotected sex.

    PS This is my first time on this forum. Forgive me.
    See, now I don't believe it's alright to rob a creature of life either. People have no right to play God.
    But I don't think abortion should be illegal either.
    Let's face it, even if it's illegal, it'll still happen. So isn't it better that the mother at least has a chance of surviving because the procedure is done in a sterile enviornment, or that neither may live because it had to be done in a back alley?

    By the way, welcome to ODN
    Hate me.

  14. #14
    cogrl
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    I am totally pro-life. Abortion is murder! For all of you who say "It's not born yet. It's not alive. It's the woman's body, her choice." Well it's scientifically proven that by the second week, the fetus has developed brain cells, therefore living and unless the abortion is before then, then it's murder. It's just plain wrong.
    And for those of you who agree it's wrong but say it'd cause this disruption for this reason, or that disruption for that reason, blah, blah, blah, what if people had said "Yeah, slavery isn't so good, but it'd do too much damage to abolish it. Let's just keep it and forget it." or " The British sure are being cruel leaders, but hey let's not rock the boat". Then, my friends, where would we be?

  15. #15
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by cogrl View Post
    I am totally pro-life. Abortion is murder! For all of you who say "It's not born yet. It's not alive. It's the woman's body, her choice." Well it's scientifically proven that by the second week, the fetus has developed brain cells, therefore living and unless the abortion is before then, then it's murder. It's just plain wrong.
    And for those of you who agree it's wrong but say it'd cause this disruption for this reason, or that disruption for that reason, blah, blah, blah, what if people had said "Yeah, slavery isn't so good, but it'd do too much damage to abolish it. Let's just keep it and forget it." or " The British sure are being cruel leaders, but hey let's not rock the boat". Then, my friends, where would we be?
    Yeah and the braincells are the quality of an insect's "brain". There's nothing "human life" about it other than pure potential
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

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  16. #16
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Our society has defined death as the loss of the cerebral EEG (electroencephalogram) pattern. Conversely, some scientists have thought that the acquisition of the human EEG (at about 27 weeks) should be defined as when a human life begins. This view has been put forth most concretely by Morowitz and Trefil (1992). (This view and the ones following would allow mid-trimester abortions).
    See, no, life does not begin at 2 weeks. Go directly to Jai-, excuse me, Fail, do not pass Go, and do not collect $200.



    EDIT: Oops, sorry about that, didn't notice that it was supposed to be closed to the debate. Ignore my statement.
    Last edited by JoCro; August 16th, 2009 at 10:32 AM. Reason: Read the earlier posts.
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  17. #17
    dlrcw
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    in most cases, it was the womans choice to be sexually active, therefore i think they should suffer the consequences by carrying out the pregnancy until birth, and abortion should be made illegal, also it is usually emotionally damaging to the pregnant woman. the way it is harmful to society, some young girls see it as a form of contraception, which therefore increases underage pregnancies, in the rare case that the woman has suffered from rape, adoption is always an option, either way, even if it is just "potential" human life, it is life nonetheless, and in my mind, is classed as murder.

  18. #18
    PaigePeace
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    I am new here so please don't attack me on the first debate.

    I think It should be a choice. There are cases in which abortion is necessary, especially if the baby is going to kill both the mother and itself. They have cases in which the baby gets stuck in the tubes and the only thing they can do about it is to have an abortion. Either way the baby is going to die and if the mother does not get an abortion then she will die too. I would never have an abortion myself ever but I am not going to tell other people what they should and should not do. I think that unless they have a reason like the one I said then put it up for adoption if you can not take care of it.

  19. #19
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
    Also, to say the illegal abortions would lead to overcrowded orphanages is most definately inaccurate because, there are hundreds of families waiting to adopt children. Also, most people have family members, or even in some cases, the man will take on the child. There are plenty of options other than abortion.
    Then why are orphanages so crowed now with abortion legal? Where are all these hundreds of families waiting to adopt children? Where are the family members of the children that's in orphanages now?

    If you are not ready for children, dont have unprotected sex.
    Condoms nor birth control is 100% effective. So with that, would it be ok for someone to have an abortion if say the condom broke and she got pregnant?
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
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  20. #20
    Fiona
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    Re: Abortion should be illegal.

    Making abortion illegal is making woman less autonomic, as when she first became pregnant, fundementally, she is just dealing with a single cell that is part of her body. Taking away the right for women to make decision for that cell (and thus with their own body) against their own will is not doing them justice. (unless of course, anyone think the male partner should have any say in this with the donation of a sperm)

 

 
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