Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 37
  1. #1
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,156
    Post Thanks / Like

    Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01tiller.html

    Pretty frightening and devastating.
    [CENTER]-=] Starcreator [=-

  2. #2
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    This is why I abhor anti abortionists. They think too....stiffly, if you know what I mean?

    But, people like these are extremists. Completely insane.
    Was it really worth it to shoot a DOCTOR because he HELPS
    PEOPLE get control of their lives again?
    Nun, Volk, steh' auf, und Sturm, brich' los!

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    ..:: ( Comtesse ) ::..

  3. #3
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Where every life is precious
    Posts
    2,157
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    I am anti-abortion, but I am strongly against this kind of violence.
    It does nothing to advance our cause.
    "As long as I have a voice, I will speak for those who have none".

  4. #4
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Anti Abortion, eh?

    Well, in my book, Anti Abortion = (Sometimes) Ruined Lives.
    Nun, Volk, steh' auf, und Sturm, brich' los!

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    ..:: ( Comtesse ) ::..

  5. #5
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Where every life is precious
    Posts
    2,157
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Comtesse View Post
    Anti Abortion, eh?
    Well, in my book, Anti Abortion = (Sometimes) Ruined Lives.
    What exactly do you mean by that?

    How could someone's life be ruined, simply because they oppose abortion?
    "As long as I have a voice, I will speak for those who have none".

  6. #6
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Well, let’s see. Perhaps there’s a 20 year old woman who wishes to get an abortion:

    1) She’s still in college and has no time at all to care for a child.
    2) She doesn’t have the money to raise a child.
    3) She doesn’t WANT a child and has no will to raise one.
    4) She also has almost no income and needs to pay for her college.
    5) …and her parents will kill her.

    I mean, you can tell that if abortion is made illegal, lots of people will suffer – not only the parent however, but the child. If anti abortionists are going to go overboard and call this murder, then I’m going to go ahead and call it torture. The child will have a scarred life and will most likely turn to drugs, gang life, or just become impoverished with little hope of improvement in life. Thus, it will drag down BOTH lives.
    Nun, Volk, steh' auf, und Sturm, brich' los!

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    ..:: ( Comtesse ) ::..

  7. #7
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    4,896
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Why is it about conservative causes that encourages the most heinous crimes? You never see gays killing gay marriage opponents. You never see environmentalists murdering the CEOs of environmentally unfriendly companies. But you do get homophobes killing gays and anti-abortionists killing abortion doctors. It's sad that some people think murder is a suitable way to advance their political causes.
    Trendem

  8. #8
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    13,847
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem View Post
    Why is it about conservative causes that encourages the most heinous crimes? You never see gays killing gay marriage opponents. You never see environmentalists murdering the CEOs of environmentally unfriendly companies. But you do get homophobes killing gays and anti-abortionists killing abortion doctors. It's sad that some people think murder is a suitable way to advance their political causes.
    People died in the LA race riots; prop. 8 opponents destroyed the property of prop. 8 supporters. The SLA, ecoterrorists...there have been Leftist terrorists and criminals in the U.S. as well.

    I would give your view more credence if this was a widespread phenomenon; fortunately, it is not.

    I wonder why liberals suddenly lose their interest in parsing when Conservatives commit crimes as opposed to Muslims. Clearly, these dozens of acts were not merely isolated incidents, perpetrated by disturbed individuals; rather, they are the result of a Conservative mindset. The hundreds of millions of other Conservatives are simply ticking time bombs.

    Isn't that just a bit absurd? Isn't it more likely that of the millions and millions of adherents to major philosophical and ideological belief systems, a few are crazy/dangerous? I mean, Christians believe that abortion is murder, but they also believe is murder is murder. You don't see very many Christians going on rampages killing murder suspects, do you? Ah, but then you don't see very many Christians going on rampages killing abortionists, either.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  9. #9
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    4,896
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    People died in the LA race riots; prop. 8 opponents destroyed the property of prop. 8 supporters. The SLA, ecoterrorists...there have been Leftist terrorists and criminals in the U.S. as well.
    I would rank the destruction of property or inadvertent deaths in the heat of a riot lower on the "heinousness scale" compared to the deliberate and targeted assassination of an abortion-provider.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    I wonder why liberals suddenly lose their interest in parsing when Conservatives commit crimes as opposed to Muslims.
    Wait... since when were liberals ok with crimes committed by Muslims? I'm sure liberals detest Islamic terrorism; we just see no point in mentioning it on a forum with no Muslims. If there were Muslim defenders of the faith on ODN, I'm sure the atrocities committed in the name of Allah will be raised against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Clearly, these dozens of acts were not merely isolated incidents, perpetrated by disturbed individuals; rather, they are the result of a Conservative mindset. The hundreds of millions of other Conservatives are simply ticking time bombs.

    Isn't that just a bit absurd? Isn't it more likely that of the millions and millions of adherents to major philosophical and ideological belief systems, a few are crazy/dangerous? I mean, Christians believe that abortion is murder, but they also believe is murder is murder. You don't see very many Christians going on rampages killing murder suspects, do you? Ah, but then you don't see very many Christians going on rampages killing abortionists, either.
    I would suggest that Christianity does contribute to such violence, simply because there are verses in the Bible that prescribe death for those who murder/commit homosexual acts. Sure, most Christians are progressive enough to ignore those verses, but as long as they remain in the Bible, they remain fuel for the extremist fire.

    Furthermore, there is a greater incentive to commit violence if you believe that you are doing God's work and will receive divine approbation for your righteous actions. Islamic terrorism is a major threat precisely because the terrorists subscribe to a skewed incentive system where no amount of man-made laws or mortal consequences can outweigh the heavenly rewards that they believe await them.
    Trendem

  10. #10
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    13,847
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem View Post
    I would rank the destruction of property or inadvertent deaths in the heat of a riot lower on the "heinousness scale" compared to the deliberate and targeted assassination of an abortion-provider.
    "Inadvertent"? How do you know whether the deaths during the L.A. riots were intentional or not?

    In any case, I never said that assassination was morally similar to destruction of property. You suggested that the Conservative mindset was somehow inclined toward evil acts; I think that it's largely independent. Conservative vs. Liberal isn't a good predictor of whether an individual is likely to commit murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem
    Wait... since when were liberals ok with crimes committed by Muslims? I'm sure liberals detest Islamic terrorism; we just see no point in mentioning it on a forum with no Muslims.
    I meant that liberals are always quite careful to distinguish between extremist Muslims and moderate Muslims, not wanting to paint with too broad a stroke. When it comes to Muslims, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem
    I would suggest that Christianity does contribute to such violence, simply because there are verses in the Bible that prescribe death for those who murder/commit homosexual acts. Sure, most Christians are progressive enough to ignore those verses, but as long as they remain in the Bible, they remain fuel for the extremist fire.

    Furthermore, there is a greater incentive to commit violence if you believe that you are doing God's work and will receive divine approbation for your righteous actions. Islamic terrorism is a major threat precisely because the terrorists subscribed to a skewed incentive system where no amount of man-made laws or mortal consequences can outweigh the heavenly rewards that they believe await them.
    And what percentage of U.S. Christians have acted thus? If the Bible so clearly encourages it, why don't it adherents follow it?

    I think that people can find lots of justifications; some call their moral justification "God", others "social justice", others "vengeance"; blaming Christianity because some people justify their actions with "God" makes as much sense as blaming Liberalism because the SLA justified their actions with Leftist philosophy.

    And where in the Bible does it say that assassinating abortion doctors is okay? I think you're missing an awful lot about what the Bible says about authority and punishment.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  11. #11
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Asia
    Posts
    1,961
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem View Post
    Why is it about conservative causes that encourages the most heinous crimes? You never see gays killing gay marriage opponents. You never see environmentalists murdering the CEOs of environmentally unfriendly companies. But you do get homophobes killing gays and anti-abortionists killing abortion doctors. It's sad that some people think murder is a suitable way to advance their political causes.
    Are we simply talking about the U.S. or the world? Do you really want me to list all of the Communist/Socialist groups in the world who commit acts of terrorism and violence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Comtesse View Post
    Well, let’s see. Perhaps there’s a 20 year old woman who wishes to get an abortion:

    1) She’s still in college and has no time at all to care for a child.
    2) She doesn’t have the money to raise a child.
    3) She doesn’t WANT a child and has no will to raise one.
    4) She also has almost no income and needs to pay for her college.
    5) …and her parents will kill her.

    I mean, you can tell that if abortion is made illegal, lots of people will suffer – not only the parent however, but the child. If anti abortionists are going to go overboard and call this murder, then I’m going to go ahead and call it torture. The child will have a scarred life and will most likely turn to drugs, gang life, or just become impoverished with little hope of improvement in life. Thus, it will drag down BOTH lives.
    Completely baseless assumptions. Going by your logic I could sit here and say that making prostitution illegal in Amsterdam will cause a lot of violence. After all, we have to assume there are men who can't get laid, and sex has been proven to relieve stress. Having no place to relieve this stress these poor Johns will probably turn to either violence or suicide.

    Now, of course, this is absurd, as plenty of places which have outlawed prostitution don't have an unusually high problem with violence or suicide. Prove to me that children who are not aborted will turn to drugs. I wasn't aborted, and I didn't turn to drugs.

  12. #12
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,716
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    Prove to me that children who are not aborted will turn to drugs. I wasn't aborted, and I didn't turn to drugs.
    Hey, just what are you saying here? Isn't it the case that 100% of those who turned to drugs are people who were not aborted?

    It would follow then that being aborted decreases one's odds of turning to drugs by 100% (of those odds). Wouldn't it? Well, that's gotta be huge, czahar!

    On the other hand of course abortions increase the incidence of lung cancer and schizophrenia per head of population (in comparison with the position as it would be if the pregnancies were to result in birth). I can prove it if you like!

    On a serious note, I think Comtesse was referring to children in some specific situations (as per his number points). Intuition tells me he has a point. But some statistical evidence would really come in useful.
    Last edited by Allocutus; May 31st, 2009 at 11:20 PM.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  13. #13
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    485
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem View Post
    Why is it about conservative causes that encourages the most heinous crimes? You never see gays killing gay marriage opponents. You never see environmentalists murdering the CEOs of environmentally unfriendly companies. But you do get homophobes killing gays and anti-abortionists killing abortion doctors. It's sad that some people think murder is a suitable way to advance their political causes.
    Abortion has gone far beyond the superficial realm of a "political cause." It is a war against genocide, whose battles in the legislative and judicial realm are predeterminately lost. There is no recourse except to circumvent the government altogether.

    It was the liberally-motivated judicial activism that created militancy in the pro-life movement, not conservatism.
    ----------
    Libertarianism has also been defined with some plausibility as the form taken by liberalism as common sense asymptotically approaches zero.
    --Richard Carnes

  14. #14
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    13,847
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Fangrim View Post
    Abortion has gone far beyond the superficial realm of a "political cause." It is a war against genocide, whose battles in the legislative and judicial realm are predeterminately lost. There is no recourse except to circumvent the government altogether.

    It was the liberally-motivated judicial activism that created militancy in the pro-life movement, not conservatism.
    No, it's the vicious, hateful people who commit these domestic acts of terrorism that created militancy. The courts didn't pull the trigger on this doctor; the murderer did.

    Gunning down doctors as they walk to church is quite clearly an evil act. Thankfully, the person responsible won't be able to circumvent our justice system.

    When did God bestow on us the task of punishing sinners?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  15. #15
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,220
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Obviously, many people are against abortion, and there will be some lifers who will see the shooter as some kind of hero.

    Those people would be in the minority, I should think.

    No matter what your views on abortion are, murdering an abortion doctor is NOT going to advance your cause, and it cannot be justified.

    Shame on those responsible.
    Frozen In Time Yearning Forbidden Wishes Damned And Divine
    Scars Of My Broken Kisses What Will Follow If Tomorrow's Blind? My Eternal Night.

  16. #16
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Asia
    Posts
    1,961
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    On a serious note, I think Comtesse was referring to children in some specific situations (as per his number points). Intuition tells me he has a point. But some statistical evidence would really come in useful.
    Sure, in some specific situations. I'll accept that. In some situations upper middle class white kids turn to mass murder (e.g., Columbine), but I think it would be a little absurd of me to sit there and warm people about having kids in upper middle class environments because it might cause them to shoot up their school.

    Then again, I suppose this is where those statistics would've been useful.

  17. #17
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    With my Angel in Aurora
    Posts
    5,722
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Here's what I don't understand.

    Why does it matter so much that someone is born? You won't be spending any time around the person. Won't help raise them. No comforting them when sick. Nothing. You have ZERO involvment in this person's life. So why does it matter whether or not they're born?
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  18. #18
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    1,785
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem View Post
    Why is it about conservative causes that encourages the most heinous crimes? You never see gays killing gay marriage opponents. You never see environmentalists murdering the CEOs of environmentally unfriendly companies. But you do get homophobes killing gays and anti-abortionists killing abortion doctors. It's sad that some people think murder is a suitable way to advance their political causes.
    Violent Environmentalists

    Unibomber, anti-industrial neo-Luddite

    Animal Liberation Front resorts to arson

    Anti Prop 8 vandalism and violence

    To identify a single violent event by what will surely turn out to be an emotionally and mentally disturbed individual as somehow indicative of the norm among conservatives is extremely reaching.

  19. #19
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,663
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by starcreator View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01tiller.html

    Pretty frightening and devastating.
    Why is the death of one man so frightening and devastating?

    Since 1972, there have been about 50 million legal murders of unborn children in the United States. Some of us think that is 50 million times more frightening and devastating.

    Or, apart from the abortion issue, how's this: Seven men in Chicago gunned down (despite Chicago gun laws) in one night. http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=297588& Would you have started a thread on that story? No, of course not, because those killings weren't a challenge to one of modern liberalism's unholy rites.

    Quote Originally Posted by trendem
    It's sad that some people think murder is a suitable way to advance their political causes.
    You mean like the feminists?

  20. #20
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    According to Christians, just south of heaven
    Posts
    1,723
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    Here's what I don't understand.

    Why does it matter so much that someone is born? You won't be spending any time around the person. Won't help raise them. No comforting them when sick. Nothing. You have ZERO involvment in this person's life. So why does it matter whether or not they're born?
    Because religiously speaking THAT person could be another person in "God's Army". Which is a lot like the KISS Army but with a lot less merchandising.

    In Heaven there is no beer. That's why we drink it here.

    Rogue Cardinal, Member of the God-Awful Atheist Syndicate


 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. FD Discussion: Abortion should be illegal.
    By Comtesse in forum Formal Debate Forum
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: October 21st, 2011, 02:09 PM
  2. Lawsuit Filed for Baby Born Alive and then Killed
    By Megan in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: February 23rd, 2009, 03:43 PM
  3. Is Abortion Murder?
    By xB3ngALidiVaX in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 426
    Last Post: July 11th, 2008, 12:07 AM
  4. FD: Capital Punishment (Mod=Iluv, Apok, NE)
    By Iluvatar in forum General Debate
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: October 6th, 2005, 06:31 PM
  5. Abortion
    By Jordan in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 88
    Last Post: May 30th, 2004, 05:07 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •