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  1. #21
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    Here's what I don't understand.

    Why does it matter so much that someone is born? You won't be spending any time around the person. Won't help raise them. No comforting them when sick. Nothing. You have ZERO involvment in this person's life. So why does it matter whether or not they're born?
    Social services. Economic prosperity and well-being . Basic human compassion for others.

    I don't think many of us would dispute the fact that we would like less poverty and happier people in our society. Government policy should be designed to allow that rather than forcing, say, sixteen year old pregnant girls to have babies for which they aren't ready.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    Here's what I don't understand.

    Why does it matter so much that someone is born? You won't be spending any time around the person. Won't help raise them. No comforting them when sick. Nothing. You have ZERO involvment in this person's life. So why does it matter whether or not they're born?
    By the same token, I wouldn't be spending any time around Dr. Tiller, Dr. Tiller didn't help raise me or vice versa, and we had ZERO involvement in each other's lives. So why does it matter that someone murdered him?

  3. #23
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by starcreator View Post
    Social services. Economic prosperity and well-being . Basic human compassion for others.

    I don't think many of us would dispute the fact that we would like less poverty and happier people in our society. Government policy should be designed to allow that rather than forcing, say, sixteen year old pregnant girls to have babies for which they aren't ready.
    That's right, kids, don't oppose abortion because it gets in the way of progressive liberal ideas about the government's responsibility to forcibly redistribute wealth and impose its values on the citizenry!

    If the pro-life side is correct, abortion is murder; your arguments are only convincing if you already reject that view, since "Forcing sixteeen year old pregnant girls not to commit murder" is an entirely proper government policy in most peoples' views. Naturally, this isn't what you're saying, because you believe abortion != murder. But I do not share that assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde
    Here's what I don't understand.

    Why does it matter so much that someone is born? You won't be spending any time around the person. Won't help raise them. No comforting them when sick. Nothing. You have ZERO involvment in this person's life. So why does it matter whether or not they're born?
    So you remember the Holocaust? To the most zealous pro-lifers, that's what abortion feels like. Except instead of killing Jews, they're killing the definition of entirely innocent, defenseless people.

    I wonder how many people would object to abortion if it was carried out immediately after the baby was born--the baby is no more rational the moment after it was born than the moment before; the only thing that has changed is its physical location, which seems like an odd standard for parsing whether the action is 'murder'.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  4. #24
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    I really don't like the "This won't help the cause" reactions. This doctor was murdered in cold blood. That's not wrong because it "didn't advance" the pro-life movement; it's wrong because it's murder.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  5. #25
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    As one of my favorite bumper stickers says "Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" and while I don't think abortion is killing someone, I do think that, by killing the abortion doctor, they show how they are truly terrible people. If they so oppose a doctor aborting fetuses (and in their mind "killing" them) how does killing someone show how pro-LIFE (L-I-F-E,as in living things) they are?
    "The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those, who, in times of great moral crisis, reserve their neutrality."-Dante

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  6. #26
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    I really don't like the "This won't help the cause" reactions. This doctor was murdered in cold blood. That's not wrong because it "didn't advance" the pro-life movement; it's wrong because it's murder.
    Well, we can accept the existence of a hierarchy of moral wrongs. Just as the murder of ten is worse than the murder of one, a murder with negative externalities is worse than one without them. Perhaps the act of murder is so grave that the increment along the scale of wrongs is trivial, but in a a world where we are desensitized to the act of killing due to the thousands of brutal acts that fill our news every day, it may be noteworthy to some people.

    Of course, I am an opponent of the self-appointed "pro-life" movement, so I am merely trying to rationalize the sentiment from their perspective.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Loller65 View Post
    As one of my favorite bumper stickers says "Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" and while I don't think abortion is killing someone, I do think that, by killing the abortion doctor, they show how they are truly terrible people. If they so oppose a doctor aborting fetuses (and in their mind "killing" them) how does killing someone show how pro-LIFE (L-I-F-E,as in living things) they are?
    Who believes "killing is wrong"? If a man is trying to kill me, is killing him in self-defense wrong? If a man is trying to kill my wife, is killing him in defense of her wrong?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  8. #28
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by starcreator View Post
    Well, we can accept the existence of a hierarchy of moral wrongs. Just as the murder of ten is worse than the murder of one, a murder with negative externalities is worse than one without them. Perhaps the act of murder is so grave that the increment along the scale of wrongs is trivial, but in a a world where we are desensitized to the act of killing due to the thousands of brutal acts that fill our news every day, it may be noteworthy to some people.

    Of course, I am an opponent of the self-appointed "pro-life" movement, so I am merely trying to rationalize the sentiment from their perspective.
    Yeah, but when your initial reaction is "One man's death doesn't matter in the grand scope of the universe" or "This negatively impacts my favored political group", I think you've become too jaded.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

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  9. #29
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    Abortion Doctor Murdered

    George Tiller, one of the last late-term abortion doctors, was shot and killed at his church. He lived in Kansas, which makes the subject particularly interesting to me because I do as well.

    From USA Today: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...n-kansas_N.htm


    There's a lot to debate here.

    > Abortion
    > Late-Term Abortion
    > Murder Justification
    > What will the media do with this?

    [Thread merged with other thread about the same topic.]
    Last edited by starcreator; June 2nd, 2009 at 02:30 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    I really don't like the "This won't help the cause" reactions. This doctor was murdered in cold blood. That's not wrong because it "didn't advance" the pro-life movement; it's wrong because it's murder.
    It's an understandable reaction from pro-life supporters who know that the mainstream media, as well as the Obama administration will paint anyone who doesn't toe the liberal line as a violent Jesus freak.

    For an example of what I'm talking about, look at the accusations that Clinton made against talk radio after the OKC bombing.

  11. #31
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    Re: Abortion Doctor Murdered

    First off, it is sad that anyone could lose their lives as a result of the debate between prolife and prochoice. I mean, it is true hypocracy for a prolife advocate to kill an abortion doctor. I cant justify this. Perhaps the killer felt that the doctor was a muderer himself. That is just his opinion, but we cant really attack for his opinion, only his action. When people believe they're fighting for whats right, they'll fight for it. As far as I'm concerned, the abortionist only performed late term abortions if the mothers health was in danger. I see no problem with that, so the killer is on his own 100% here. The media will push it on the right wing. The end.
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  12. #32
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Originally posted by CliveStaples
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Loller65
    As one of my favorite bumper stickers says "Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" and while I don't think abortion is killing someone, I do think that, by killing the abortion doctor, they show how they are truly terrible people. If they so oppose a doctor aborting fetuses (and in their mind "killing" them) how does killing someone show how pro-LIFE (L-I-F-E,as in living things) they are?
    Who believes "killing is wrong"? If a man is trying to kill me, is killing him in self-defense wrong? If a man is trying to kill my wife, is killing him in defense of her wrong?
    Well, to be honest that bumper sticker was about the war in Iraq, but I do think it makes a good point. And I'm just using it as an example in that situation, how killing the abortion doctor shows the hypocrisy of their whole cause because they say they are pro life but then go out and kill a guy.
    "The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those, who, in times of great moral crisis, reserve their neutrality."-Dante

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  13. #33
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    No, it's the vicious, hateful people who commit these domestic acts of terrorism that created militancy. The courts didn't pull the trigger on this doctor; the murderer did.
    Non-responsive. The pro-life movement is forced to resort to other methods because of an arbitrary judicial blockade against legislation. Obviously the courts didn't kill Tiller; what they did was create a society in which pro-lifers - some of whom believe mass abortion to be tantamount to a holocaust - have no other method of effecting social change. Change by the coercive power of government is closed to them, but change by coercive power of the people directly is still possible.

    Gunning down doctors as they walk to church is quite clearly an evil act.
    I don't doubt that the pro-life militant felt the same way, in some sense. The murder itself may have been as wrong as any other, but the doctor's past and future actions - and the role those actions play on a societal scale - vindicated the murder.

    Thankfully, the person responsible won't be able to circumvent our justice system.

    When did God bestow on us the task of punishing sinners?
    Uh.
    What? Those last two sentences.
    You don't see any cognitive dissonance there?
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  14. #34
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by Fangrim View Post
    Non-responsive. The pro-life movement is forced to resort to other methods because of an arbitrary judicial blockade against legislation. Obviously the courts didn't kill Tiller; what they did was create a society in which pro-lifers - some of whom believe mass abortion to be tantamount to a holocaust - have no other method of effecting social change. Change by the coercive power of government is closed to them, but change by coercive power of the people directly is still possible.
    So Tiller's murder was in fact justified?

    You sound an awful lot like the people who justify Islamic terrorists' methods by saying they've been 'backed into a corner' and they're fighting with 'the only tools available to them'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fangrim
    I don't doubt that the pro-life militant felt the same way, in some sense. The murder itself may have been as wrong as any other, but the doctor's past and future actions - and the role those actions play on a societal scale - vindicated the murder.
    That's a contradiction. If the murder was vindicated, then it wasn't wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fangrim
    Uh.
    What? Those last two sentences.
    You don't see any cognitive dissonance there?
    We have a justice system to enforce our laws; our laws should conform to the natural law, which are those set of laws that result best in individual liberty.

    Our legal system does not exist to punish sinners. If it was, there would be a law against blasphemy. Surely you would not vote in support of such a law?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  15. #35
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    That's right, kids, don't oppose abortion because it gets in the way of progressive liberal ideas about the government's responsibility to forcibly redistribute wealth and impose its values on the citizenry!
    Why does this have to be a left and right issue? The idea that one should have a billion kids when one is in destitute poverty is, y'know, kind of a fundamental value for most people. It has nothing to do with redistribution, it has to do with a concern for the general welfare of humanity.

    If abortion isn't murder, then suggesting that people not have babies they can't raise promotes no socialist agenda.
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  16. #36
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by starcreator View Post
    Why does this have to be a left and right issue? The idea that one should have a billion kids when one is in destitute poverty is, y'know, kind of a fundamental value for most people. It has nothing to do with redistribution, it has to do with a concern for the general welfare of humanity.

    If abortion isn't murder, then suggesting that people not have babies they can't raise promotes no socialist agenda.
    You're saying the government should be focused on maximizing happiness, with the result that sixteen year old girls should be able to obtain abortions. That's a political view; I think the government should focus on protecting our individual rights to life, liberty, and property before moving on to ensuring our happiness. Pardon me if I think one's relative location to the maternal birthing canal doesn't factor in to the equation.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

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  17. #37
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    Re: Abortion-performing doctor shot to death in Kansas

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    So Tiller's murder was in fact justified?
    Per the view of a sizable segment of the pro-life movement, yes, that's basically what I'm getting at.

    You sound an awful lot like the people who justify Islamic terrorists' methods by saying they've been 'backed into a corner' and they're fighting with 'the only tools available to them'.
    I am not familiar enough with the ideological/economic necessity of Islamic terrorism to assess that comparison.


    That's a contradiction. If the murder was vindicated, then it wasn't wrong.
    I'd differ, but we'd be getting into pure semantics at that point. I think an act can be wrong by some moral standard or rule (like that against murder) while still being justified by other means. The justification isn't moral; it's pragmatic. Standard political avenues have been arbitrarily (and I might add capriciously) closed. Other social avenues are still open, and when there exists a road that you believe leads away from a holocaust, you take it.

    Or are you completely against the use of intrinsically morally questionable means to attain worthy objectives? I seem to recall you favor the right to self-defense...
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