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Thread: God exists

  1. #1
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    God exists

    The existence of the universe necessitates the existence of God. Look at all its complexities and its slendor; how could it be possible that it was created from random chance? Also, without God, there would be no basis for morality. If people didn't believe in God, society would fall apart. So, there is no possible way to doubt the existence of God if you have an ounce of rationality.
    Last edited by Meng Bomin; November 15th, 2004 at 11:12 PM.
    孟柏民
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    Re: God exists

    I agree. I think the fact that life exists shows that there is a clear design made by a clearly existent designer.

    However, the designs are flawed, so we must atone for our sins by praying. God will take care of the starving, sick, and dying when they get to heaven. That is, if they have been shown the Truth before they die.
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

  3. #3
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    Re: God exists

    Once again, your logic (both of you) is flawless. There MUST be a God. In fact, I feel sad for those who would deny such a thing.

  4. #4
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    Re: God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverending
    The existence of the universe necessitates the existence of God. Look at all its complexities and its slendor; how could it be possible that it was created from random chance?
    It's very, very rare that someone would be struck by lightning, and yet, some people have been struck by lightning more than once. The odds of this happening, is an astronomical figure. Yet, it has.

    By your logic, we would have to conclude that merely because the odds of someone getting struck by lightning randomly, it couldn't happen. But this isn't reality is it?

    Also, without God, there would be no basis for morality.
    Well, first...how is God the basis for morality? Which God? There are many religions all claiming their God is the basis for morality. Are all Gods the basis for morality? If so, then there IS NO basis is there? If there is only 1 God, then which? And why?

    If people didn't believe in God, society would fall apart.
    How does believing IN God, hold society together? What is the connection? Also, since all societies in history have at some point or another, fallen apart...then is it a true statement to say that "No societies have believed in God?"

    So, there is no possible way to doubt the existence of God if you have an ounce of rationality.
    Right. Pull this leg, it plays Jingle Bells.
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    Re: God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    I agree. I think the fact that life exists shows that there is a clear design made by a clearly existent designer.

    However, the designs are flawed, so we must atone for our sins by praying.
    Wait...so God (a designer) created these designs, but screwed them up...and for his shortcomings we must atone for HIS mistakes? And all we have to do, to do this, is pray?

    God will take care of the starving, sick, and dying when they get to heaven.
    How many hungry and sick dead people do you know?

    That is, if they have been shown the Truth before they die.
    Who shows them the truth? The designer who screwed up the design? And what specifically IS the truth?
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  6. #6
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    Re: God exists

    Psychologists say that the brain is essentially irrational in the way it operates, I mean, why is it that so many of us will put money into lottery tickets when the odds on winning a millions to one? Why is it that so many will invest so much in hunches? There are probably more people in the world who believe in astrology and magic than choose to use proven laws of science as a rational indicator of what is so. Within psychology, there is a growing school who feel that a genetic predisposition (a God gene) and conditioning figure in belief patterns, which are essentially irrational in nature anyway. Rationality and science have never caused wars, greed, suspicion and hostility. It is the irrationality of feelings, including belief, that highjack them, pervert them and draw them into conflict. Often imagery or interpretation of a god or gods features in the hostile equation. People flock to speak on behalf or this god or that god, it is as if they are manipulating their gods on strings and giving them voice, much as a ventroliquist might.
    Looking rationally, the whole thing appears as a nightmare of silliness.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  7. #7
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    Re: God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Apok
    It's very, very rare that someone would be struck by lightning, and yet, some people have been struck by lightning more than once. The odds of this happening, is an astronomical figure. Yet, it has
    However, there is a reasonable probability that someone will be struck by lightning. There is virtually no possibility that the universe would exist without a god.
    Well, first...how is God the basis for morality?
    Isn't it obvious? Since morality is absolute and there is an absolute right and wrong, it cannot be the case that an imperfect creature such as humanity could possibly invent a perfect form of morality.
    Which God?
    That's obvious as well. The Christian God is the basis for morality.
    There are many religions all claiming their God is the basis for morality. Are all Gods the basis for morality? If so, then there IS NO basis is there? If there is only 1 God, then which? And why?
    There are many religions claiming to be the basis for morality, but there is only one true religion. Islam was a modified form of moon worship, Hinduism was a collection of Indian traditional beliefs that has no true structure, Judaism denies Jesus, who is the true messiah, and Buddhism uses only very basic concepts. Christianity is most obviously the true religion and the basis of morality.
    How does believing IN God, hold society together? What is the connection?
    The connection is rather basic: morality, which stems from God. The religious have better moral fiber than atheists and most atheists borrow their beliefs from religion. Look, for instance, at the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union promoted state atheism and it lasted only 75 years because of the lack of Christian principles, such as hard work and other important morals. One can see how skewed morality has affected other nations as well. The Islamic world is suffering because of their militant morality and resistence to change. This is not helped by the fact that a false religion is in power. China is a fairly poor nation because of its state atheism. 'Sweatshops' form regularly ther because labor is so chep, because they do not follw Christian principles of morality. In fact, the richest nations in the world are Christian nations. The connection between religion and the stregnth of society is obvious.
    Also, since all societies in history have at some point or another, fallen apart...then is it a true statement to say that "No societies have believed in God?"
    United States society has not died out yet. Anyway, the answer to your question is yes, societies that fall fall because they have turned from God. The Israelite leaders were exiled from Canaan and the people were placed under the harsh rule of multiple cruel empires for their lack of faith and reverence in God.
    Wait...so God (a designer) created these designs, but screwed them up...and for his shortcomings we must atone for HIS mistakes?
    God did not mess up. Humanity was corrupted by the serpent. Besides this, everything is part of God's plan. Our suffering allows us to see pleasure and it prepares us for the world beyond death. God has intervened through Jesus and is merciful enough to give us that which we don't deserve.
    How many hungry and sick dead people do you know?
    Fyshhed's point went completely over your head.
    Who shows them the truth? The designer who screwed up the design? And what specifically IS the truth?
    God shows us the truth and it was not He who screwed up the design; that was the work of Satan. The truth is that Jesus Christ came to Earth to save us from our sins and that we can make it to heaven, but only through Him.
    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut
    Psychologists say that the brain is essentially irrational in the way it operates, I mean, why is it that so many of us will put money into lottery tickets when the odds on winning a millions to one? Why is it that so many will invest so much in hunches? There are probably more people in the world who believe in astrology and magic than choose to use proven laws of science as a rational indicator of what is so. Within psychology, there is a growing school who feel that a genetic predisposition (a God gene) and conditioning figure in belief patterns, which are essentially irrational in nature anyway. Rationality and science have never caused wars, greed, suspicion and hostility. It is the irrationality of feelings, including belief, that highjack them, pervert them and draw them into conflict. Often imagery or interpretation of a god or gods features in the hostile equation. People flock to speak on behalf or this god or that god, it is as if they are manipulating their gods on strings and giving them voice, much as a ventroliquist might.
    Looking rationally, the whole thing appears as a nightmare of silliness.
    I don't see how this has anything to do with God. In fact, it just further shows that human creations like evolution are inherently flawed.
    孟柏民
    Formerly Neverending (for all you old-timers)

  8. #8
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    Re: God exists

    Just an FYI: This forum is intended for POSITION REVERSAL. NOT what or how you think the opposition argues. Thus far, all that I've really seen from a few of you, are exaggerated positions, not actual arguments. This forum is NOT intended to satire an opposition's argument. It is an exercise in DEBATE and LOGIC.

    It has started to head down that path of nonsense. And since this is intended to be a SERIOUS format for those who are capable of presenting ACTUAL arguments, posts WILL be removed that are more satire than an actual argument.

    Your intent here, is the provide the best possible argument to your ability. Not provide a satirical or sarcastic, illogical, nonsensical argument that you believe others provide who really hold said position. - Apok


    Formal response to the posts above forthcoming. And I must say, thus far, I'm not impressed w/ some of the heavy hitters here who are participating. I expected more.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  9. #9
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    Re: God exists

    [non-role reversal] Okay, most of my post was done with the intention of not trying to satirize the opponent's position. Although, I suppose I have in the past. Granted, I can see the flaws in my arguments, but I have simply accepted some of the assumptions made (such as absolute morality. I was not aware that we were supposed to go off our own assumptions. [/non-role revesal]
    孟柏民
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    Re: God exists

    [non-RR!] Tough to legitimately argue something I can't use my typical logical methods to prove [/non-rr!!!1one]
    So it is necessary to take note that an omnipotent deity of ANY kind, by definition of being omnipotent, has to be able to transcend logic by redefining it for himself. It's quite simple. When you make the rules, you can change them so you don't break them.
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

  11. #11
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    Re: God exists

    It's ok to have valid inferences to an argument. But be prepared to support them somewhat, or at least stay away from them if you cannot. Please read Iluvatar's sticky thread in this forum for more info.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  12. #12
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    Re: God exists

    [non-role reversal]So, basically, I should start a different thread because this one is impossible to support with good logic. I should start and anti-strong atheist one...[/non-role reversal]
    孟柏民
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    Re: God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverending
    However, there is a reasonable probability that someone will be struck by lightning. There is virtually no possibility that the universe would exist without a god.
    Your first argument was: Look at all its complexities and its slendor; how could it be possible that it was created from random chance?

    Your odds of winning the Powerball multi-state lottery jackpot are about one in 120,526,770. Yet, people DO win it, it happens. So the claim that X occurring because the odds of it happening are too great, has been shown to be false. It is a weak argument. It DOES happen despite the odds of it happening.

    Also, it doesn't matter how complex something is, the fact that it IS, doesn't tell us anything about the cause. It merely tells us that it DID happen or it DOES exist. You have yet to show WHY it would be impossible. Claiming it and supporting it are not synonymous.

    Isn't it obvious?
    No, and you claiming it, doesn't make it so. You supporting it has a stronger chance of convincing an audience.

    Since morality is absolute and there is an absolute right and wrong, it cannot be the case that an imperfect creature such as humanity could possibly invent a perfect form of morality.
    First of all, who is to say that morality IS absolute? You haven't shown it to be the case. There are many theories and ideas about the nature of morality. While many deny that it is absolute, there are some that say that it is, but God isn't necessary to make it so.

    Also, regardless if morality is absolute or relative, suggesting that morality is perfect ("a perferct form") is a category mistake. Morality isn't something that can be labeled as imperfect or perfect. Morality is what "ought to be", it prescribes what should be the case. The problem then, is determining HOW we know WHAT should be the case. While you want to claim that God is that source, you haven't shown it to be true. I believe that all men for example, know in their hearts what is good and what is evil. All men know that it is wrong to murder a child, all men know that it is good to help a lost child. These are things that we know as a species. These are intuitions that have evolved with us as a species.

    That's obvious as well. The Christian God is the basis for morality.
    No, it isn't obvious. And you continuing to claim that it is without any support or even argument, is a sign that you merely accept what you cannot understand, because to do otherwise would mean having to think objectively and against your close-minded view that there cannot be any other possibilities other than the one you have blindly accepted without question. And accepting anything for the sake of acceptance, is quite dangerous. It definitely isn't very well thought out at the very least.

    There are many religions claiming to be the basis for morality, but there is only one true religion.
    So says you and every other believer of every other religion. You all say the same thing. Are you all right or all wrong?

    Islam was a modified form of moon worship,
    It morphed from an ancient religion to "the true one".

    Hinduism was a collection of Indian traditional beliefs that has no true structure
    It has morphed from traditional beliefs to enlightened understanding of the one "true religion".

    , Judaism denies Jesus, who is the true messiah,
    Judaism has denied many messiahs, Jesus wasn't the first one who claimed to be the one, and won't be the last. Christians just fell for the best storyteller at the time.

    and Buddhism uses only very basic concepts.
    Sometimes truth is that which is the most obvious and simplistic.

    Christianity is most obviously the true religion and the basis of morality.
    You haven't shown this to be the case. And you claiming it doesn't make it so. Christianity was a collection of Jewish tradition and belief, as well as other cults of the time. It morphed from other beliefs, into what it is today...JUST LIKE MANY OTHER RELIGIONS. Thus far, there is nothing distinquishable here that shows that Christianity is the "one true religion". Not even you claiming it to be w/o support, is unique. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, just like you, all tell others that their way is the truth, the way, the path, etc... It's all the same, it's all rubbish.

    If there really was a God, why would he be a God of confusion? Why did you create or even allow so many other beliefs in him? Is he selective? Do only the "chosen few" get to know the "truth" then? Isn't he supposed to be loving? Does a father play favorites? Does God?

    The connection is rather basic: morality, which stems from God.
    Which you have not shown to be the case.

    The religious have better moral fiber than atheists
    Like slave holders, priest child molestors, evangelical scandals, discrimination against those unlike them, witch hunts, Inquisitions, Crusades, etc... ? Yes, what a great moral example that you have set. Let's all follow in your [Christians'] footsteps.

    and most atheists borrow their beliefs from religion.
    Any evidence for this? I'm an atheist. I know that killing a child is wrong. I know that helping a child is wrong. I knew this to be the case before opening a Bible, Koran, or any other "holy book".

    Look, for instance, at the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union promoted state atheism and it lasted only 75 years because of the lack of Christian principles, such as hard work and other important morals.
    Medieval Europe was largely Christian, if not all Christian w/ exception to parts of Eastern Europe and parts of Spain which were Islamic (still theistic though). Those who were not of the faith of that area, were forced to convert or die (or enslaved). This went on longer and in an larger area than the Soviet Union. People suffered greatly under the iron fist of Christianity

    One can see how skewed morality has affected other nations as well.
    Christianity's history tells us that it is far from being the moral standard.

    The Islamic world is suffering because of their militant morality and resistence to change.
    You mean the forced rape of a culture by Christianity which claims that it has the only moral system that should be accepted and if it isn't, you are put to the sword (during the Dark Ages) or gun, today.

    This is not helped by the fact that a false religion is in power. China is a fairly poor nation because of its state atheism.
    Africa is even poorer, and it is a very religions continent. So theism/atheism isn't an indicator of success. Also, some countries in Africa are Christian, yet still quite poor. So it can't be the case that Christianity yields profit. Also, didn't Christ preach that the poor shall inherit the Kingdom? Weren't the poor put on a pedastal? Why would you argue that the nation's economy doing well is an indicator of "proper Christian morals"? It would seem as if Christ argued the opposite.

    'Sweatshops' form regularly ther because labor is so chep, because they do not follw Christian principles of morality.
    Actually, the economy in many 3rd world countries is so poor, that what is earned in what you call sweat shops, can go a long way. Don't compare what you earn to what others earn in underdeveloped countries then try to weasel in the idea that it must be "teh debil's " fault.

    In fact, the richest nations in the world are Christian nations. The connection between religion and the stregnth of society is obvious.
    Checkmate. Christ said quite the opposite. He said that wealth is not a good thing. Money is the root of all evil. The the meak and poor should inherit the Kingdom of God. And yet, you claim that it is the uber-wealthy that best represents what "true Christianity" is. This sounds a lot like that elitist medieval thinking again doesn't it? Churches were decked out in gold, gems, emeralds. Large sums of money was spent on these huge, "glorious" cathedrals and places of worship, that could have otherwise gone to helping the poor and down-trodden...you know...those that Jesus looked after? Did Jesus need fancy buildings? Do you think he would approve of such extravagant places of worship? He came from a poor family, was a modest man, a great teacher, helped the poor, spoke out against those who had a lot and were privileged.

    Yet you say that through Christian morals and principles, nations will become "rich"? Did Christ preach this? Is this something that was taught then as well? If so, where? Verse please. If not, then why have you deviated from your founder's teachings? Is this wise?

    United States society has not died out yet. Anyway, the answer to your question is yes, societies that fall fall because they have turned from God. The Israelite leaders were exiled from Canaan and the people were placed under the harsh rule of multiple cruel empires for their lack of faith and reverence in God.
    I see, so then the argument is actually:

    The US is the first nation to really believe in the true God, and the fact that we are still around after a mere 200 years is evidence of that.

    That pretty much sum up the side argument?

    ....Part Deux Forthcoming....
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; November 19th, 2004 at 04:00 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Re: God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverending
    [non-role reversal]So, basically, I should start a different thread because this one is impossible to support with good logic. I should start and anti-strong atheist one...[/non-role reversal]
    That's up to you. I've responded to the above...and it's only 1/2 the response I have intended. Much of the objection is based on your inferences that do not have to be accepted because they have not been shown to be the case. And that is what is getting you into trouble here IMO (as far as making it a difficult position to take).

    I think you should have stuck to your original thesis and stayed away from the morality, Christianity, etc... You don't have to be a Christian, or any defined adherent to a specific religion to believe in God. Perhaps it would have been easier to just argue if you stuck w/ 1 or 2 issues instead of brining in a bunch of inferences that became side-arguments.

    Regardless, perhaps you can appreciate a little, of what a Jew, Christian, Muslim has in store for them when they debate. It isn't just 1 issue they have to tackle when speaking on the existence of God, but many. It can be quite a headache at times.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  15. #15
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    Re: God exists

    There is no scientific evidence for God, and since religion is admittedly a matter of faith, with no regard to logic or physical evidence, it's not very hard to scientifically conclude that for all practical purposes, God doesn't exist, and if He does, we can't know and it doesn't affect us.

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    Re: God exists

    State only the facts, cold hard facts,
    Jesseus was a real person
    He was cursfied for claiming to be gods son, and/or preaching a diffrent religion
    Jesseus sparked one of the most sucessful religions in history
    Millions of people belive in what he taught
    One book, the bible, is THE BEST SELLING BOOK IN WORLD HISTORY!!
    Something has to be right.. and i think god is right.

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    Re: God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by vance101
    State only the facts, cold hard facts,
    Jesseus was a real person
    He was cursfied for claiming to be gods son, and/or preaching a diffrent religion
    So? He claimed some things. I can claim whatever I want, it doesn't make it true.

    Jesseus sparked one of the most sucessful religions in history
    Millions of people belive in what he taught
    The majority beliveing something does not make it true. Lots of people used to believe that the world was flat.

    One book, the bible, is THE BEST SELLING BOOK IN WORLD HISTORY!!
    Something has to be right.. and i think god is right.
    So what if the Bible is the best selling book in history? That proves only that a lot of people believe that it is true and as I have already stated, belief in something does not make it true.
    -=]sbgtfJC[=-
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