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  1. #21
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Send them out with less gear, then.

    Or--and I'm just spitballing, here--get rid of the double standard. Then you'll know that the minimum fitness/strength of every soldier, not just the men, is sufficient to carry the standard packs.
    Believe me, I do not want a double standard but physical capability is an issue all the same. Unless, you think that the same “double standard” should be taken out of the Olympic Games as well. Men and women sports are separated for a reason and physical capability is that reason.

    If a woman can carry a standard pack and handle the conditions then all power to them but all evidence suggests that the majority can’t. As a result, if women really want to become a more integral part in combat then changes need to be considered. My suggestion for lighter packs was just that, a suggestion.
    Just to let you know, I love playing devil's advocate.


    A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.


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  2. #22
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Moon View Post
    Believe me, I do not want a double standard but physical capability is an issue all the same. Unless, you think that the same “double standard” should be taken out of the Olympic Games as well. Men and women sports are separated for a reason and physical capability is that reason.

    If a woman can carry a standard pack and handle the conditions then all power to them but all evidence suggests that the majority can’t. As a result, if women really want to become a more integral part in combat then changes need to be considered. My suggestion for lighter packs was just that, a suggestion.
    We aren't talking about athletic competitions. We're talking about whether soldiers can perform the tasks they are assigned. If you only need to lift 50 lbs to be in a non-combat role, then men and women serving in non-combat roles should be held to that standard. If you need to lift at least 100 pounds to be in a combat role, then men and women serving in combat roles should be held to that standard.


    And I have no problem with sending women out with less gear.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  3. #23
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Jamie, could you and one of your femal friends lift a dead weight of 200+ lbs -- the approx. weight of a wounded male soldie
    I know three girls off the top of my head who could. All three are over six feet tall, and in excellent shape. I also know plenty of men in the military who can't lift 200lbs of dead weight. Once the military takes away the double standard then I would be okay with women being added to the draft. Until then? No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive
    Sign them up as human shields. No body is useless.

    Or let them test for land mines / IEDs.
    But then who would you have to berate, Clive? Who would you have to insult to boost your self esteem, if all the women are on the front lines?
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  4. #24
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    We aren't talking about athletic competitions. We're talking about whether soldiers can perform the tasks they are assigned. If you only need to lift 50 lbs to be in a non-combat role, then men and women serving in non-combat roles should be held to that standard. If you need to lift at least 100 pounds to be in a combat role, then men and women serving in combat roles should be held to that standard.


    And I have no problem with sending women out with less gear.
    Ok, than we have no problem. To me if women can meet up with the physical standards needed to thrive in a war zone, then they should be apart of combat. If not than perhaps change should be considered. I do still stand by having segregated units in order for pregnancy to be avoided.
    Just to let you know, I love playing devil's advocate.


    A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.


    I know I may not be the smartest person in the world but don't call me stupid just because I disagree with you.

  5. #25
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    But then who would you have to berate, Clive? Who would you have to insult to boost your self esteem, if all the women are on the front lines?
    People with intelligence?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  6. #26
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive
    People with intelligence?
    Clive, what exactly is your problem with women? Honest dialog. What have women done to you that's so horrible that you have such venom? It's really disturbing to think about how you interact with people offline. Unless you're two different people off and online. o.O
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  7. #27
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Clive, what exactly is your problem with women? Honest dialog. What have women done to you that's so horrible that you have such venom? It's really disturbing to think about how you interact with people offline. Unless you're two different people off and online. o.O
    Wait, women don't like being insulted because of their gender? I just assumed that if they dish it out, they can take it.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

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  8. #28
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive
    Wait, women don't like being insulted because of their gender? I just assumed that if they dish it out, they can take it.
    Where have women insulted men because of their gender in this thread? This for sure seems like misdirected anger.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  9. #29
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    I know three girls off the top of my head who could. All three are over six feet tall, and in excellent shape. I also know plenty of men in the military who can't lift 200lbs of dead weight. Once the military takes away the double standard then I would be okay with women being added to the draft. Until then? No.
    How would you know that your friends can or cannot deadlift 200 or 200+ pounds?
    And regardless of this ridiculous side debate ( which I don't blame you for), women who can dl 200 lbs and men who can go through boot camp but can't dl 200 lbs are both extremely atypical, and are a gross misrepresentation of the average American female and the average male member of the armed forces.

    And another angle for this debate... Sexism is very much alive in our society and out of a group of 8 infrantrymen ( a platoon is 36 men divided into 4 groups of 9 minus one for the woman) it is likely that at least one man is going to have less confidence in a woman, whether it is because of her perceived emotion weakness or physical weakness or whatever. If that one man can't trust his female comrade, then the group simply cannot function properly, especially if it is an infranty unit, where each soldier completey relies on every other soldier for safety.

    At that point, you would have to prioritize between the combat effectiveness of a unit and political correctness.
    "I think when the history of this period is written, people will realize a lot of the decisions that were made on Wall Street took place over a decade or so, before I arrived in President, during I arrived in President."
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  10. #30
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Where have women insulted men because of their gender in this thread? This for sure seems like misdirected anger.
    See, this is what I'm talking about.

    I didn't say that women have insulted men because of their gender in this thread, did I, Jamie?

    Do try to keep up.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  11. #31
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    You certainly implied it, Clive. Skirt around the issue all you'd like. Cause at the end of the day? You're left alone with all the anger and hatred.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  12. #32
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    I say let the chips fall where they may.

    Women should register for draft, but the military should have the option not to call them if they don't think it would be useful.

    Women should serve wherever they show aptitude. If they can lug gear, they should lug gear, if they can pilot planes they should pilot planes. Plenty of men can't heft a 200lb pack either. There are a good number of women stronger than a given man but clearly men are typically stronger. Its not like it takes long to figure out how strong someone is.

  13. #33
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    I didn't say that women have insulted men because of their gender in this thread, did I, Jamie?
    The following certainly looks like an implication that women have insulted men because of gender, in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    Wait, women don't like being insulted because of their gender? I just assumed that if they dish it out, they can take it.


    ---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreenape View Post
    Inherent physical inequality is not something we can just deem irrelevent when it comes to performing combat duties. (And not being in the military, I do not know that this applies to ALL combat duties)
    I agree.

    It's been indicated that women would need to meet certain physical standards in order to be effective in most combat situations.

    Men and women, in general, do differ when it comes to physical capabilities.
    So that is something that would have to be considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreenape
    However, that shouldn't dismiss all women from the draft considering there are more options than combat duty which they are equally capable of performing.
    Good point....

    Any women who couldn't meet the physical standards required in combat duty could still perform quite adequately in other capacities.

    I also think it would be absolutely necessary to have separate quarters for male and female soldiers.
    .
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  14. #34
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    How exactly are women not emotionally suited for it?
    Females, by nature, are more emotional and attached than men are. Unless you want to disagree on that point.

    That is what I love about women to begin with. I just do not think that women are suited for what it takes to be a front line solider or Marine.

    I was a Marine for many years....was on the front lines alot. Seen and did things that sucked and I still have to deal with....that is not a place for a woman.

    And do not even give me the " You are a sexist" garbage. I believe in equality among everyone (except Liberals =]) the military is not the place to be concerned with PC stuff. It is about getting the job done by the most effective and expedient means possible.

  15. #35
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    For clarification:

    Infantry ruck sacks along with all the basic combat load typically weigh between 80-120 lbs. As foe lifting 20o lbs of deadweight. That figure was intended as aload to be split by two people -- as in two soldiers carrying a wounded comrade on an improvised stretcher. However, in every light infantry unit I ever served in -- we had to make it a point not to have more than one or two "little guys" in every squad, and we always piered them up together as a combat team. Little guys can come in handy for squeezing into places, etc.

    I don't know how it is today -- but I imagine the Drills at Ft. Benning can be a little more selective in "recycling" recruits they feel do not have the physical or psychological ability to be an infantryman. When the economy is bad recruitment numbers are high. In my day, if the drill Sgts thought a trainee could not "hang" they would see that trainee did not become a infantryman, by any means necessary.

    If basic training Schools in the Army have a 100% pass rate, this normally raises a red flag. Basic training is designed to weed out those who are not fit for combat. If everybody passes -- then something is probably wrong.

    In the Infantry school For examploe, one was never permitted to think in terms of "minimum required to pass" but rather -- "how many more to 'max out' on the score?". Another great leveler were ten miles runs, and 25+ miles "tactical" ruck sack marches, where, if no one in the 120+ man company "fell out" i.e. quit -- the Drills who carried nowhere near the weight we did -- would just keep marching us until someone "quit" or their body just failed. Completion of the march was a requirement for graduation.

    Fail to complete the march -- and you'll be doing again in the next couple days or next week with another unit. Most of us at that point would have rather died.

    Don't know how things are today. My nephew is in week 4 now at Ft. Benning with about 12 more to go...hehe.

    Hope this might clarify a few things.

    Chad is much more recently associated with that fine facility in South Georgia. Perhaps he may lend some insight?

    ---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoamI View Post
    Females, by nature, are more emotional and attached than men are. Unless you want to disagree on that point.

    That is what I love about women to begin with. I just do not think that women are suited for what it takes to be a front line solider or Marine.

    I was a Marine for many years....was on the front lines alot. Seen and did things that sucked and I still have to deal with....that is not a place for a woman.

    And do not even give me the " You are a sexist" garbage. I believe in equality among everyone (except Liberals =]) the military is not the place to be concerned with PC stuff. It is about getting the job done by the most effective and expedient means possible.
    Actually who -- I have seen some professional articles, where women, due their greater comfort level in "sharing their feelings", etc. are less susceptible to PTSD.

    And as for PTSD, and being emotional and all -- don't you dare try to claim that nurses in a combat zone do not see more stuff "that sucked" than you or I.

    It is the "macho" tendency of grunts to not talk about their feelings freely with their comrades that is a big contributor to PTSD and other stress-related conditions. Oh we might talk about such things -- but usually only after liberal lubrication of alcohol and/or prescribed meds -- and that is not exactly constructiuve.
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  16. #36
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoamI View Post
    Females, by nature, are more emotional and attached than men are. Unless you want to disagree on that point.

    That is what I love about women to begin with. I just do not think that women are suited for what it takes to be a front line solider or Marine.

    I was a Marine for many years....was on the front lines alot. Seen and did things that sucked and I still have to deal with....that is not a place for a woman.

    And do not even give me the " You are a sexist" garbage. I believe in equality among everyone (except Liberals =]) the military is not the place to be concerned with PC stuff. It is about getting the job done by the most effective and expedient means possible.
    I do have to wonder if you have any kind of support for the assertion that you are making in regards to women being to emotional for a front line position.

    ---

    I have thought for a long time that part of getting equality for women is taking on the responsibilities that used to be reserved solely for men. Sadly up until this point inequality remains in the area of the draft.

    As for being put in combat positions, if they meet the same physical requirements that of a male to participate in combat then they should. This seems to be something that is better determined on an individual basis.

  17. #37
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    You certainly implied it, Clive. Skirt around the issue all you'd like. Cause at the end of the day? You're left alone with all the anger and hatred.
    Nope, just amusement =D
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  18. #38
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    This seems to be something that is better determined on an individual basis.

    Militaries in general are not real big on individualism -- contrary to the recruiting motto.
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

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  19. #39
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    I do have to wonder if you have any kind of support for the assertion that you are making in regards to women being to emotional for a front line position.
    I stated that it was an opinion. I did not try to pass my opinion off, as you frequently do, as a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    As for being put in combat positions, if they meet the same physical requirements that of a male to participate in combat then they should.
    They do not. History proves this.

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    This seems to be something that is better determined on an individual basis.
    The military is not a supporter of individualism. They want what works and is effective.

  20. #40
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    Re: Should Women Be Eligible for the Draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spart
    If basic training Schools in the Army have a 100% pass rate, this normally raises a red flag. Basic training is designed to weed out those who are not fit for combat. If everybody passes -- then something is probably wrong.

    Chad is much more recently associated with that fine facility in South Georgia. Perhaps he may lend some insight?
    Well for the past almost 2 weeks I have been in Ft. Leonardwood going through MOS retraining.

    While I was in Benning, I didn't see much of the Basic Training area. We were over by the Rangers and the 11th Engineers. In Benning they more or less seem to keep those in Basic separate.

    However, Leonardwood is pretty much all Basic Training, with the Engineers, MPs, Chemical, Transportation, and a few others. The standards have dropped. Those of us Combat Engineers who got called up had separate MOS retraining from the privates, but several MPs who were with us got stuck with privates going through AIT. Apparently the privates are now allowed to have cell phones and can smoke. Furthermore, they no longer get "smoked" as they called it when I was in, but instead get "caping." This is only given as corrective punishment in proportion to the wrong action. They used to smoke us for fun. One of the worst smokings I ever got was in MOPP 4, resulted in one guy being sent to the hospital, and it all was because somebody farted.

    But because Leonardwood is primarily Basic training and AIT, I've seen plenty of the conditions. We eat at their chow halls and like I said, our MPs have had to train with the privates. Standards have dropped.....a lot.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

 

 
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