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  1. #1
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    How would you know if God is lying?

    I may have floated this as an OP in the past. I somewhat expect it to vanish in a wave of silence but recent debates reminded me of the question.

    Assuming
    God is real
    God is at least powerful enough to have performed the miracles presented in the bible.
    The Bible is the word of God

    Question
    How do you know God is telling mankind the truth about himself and that the words of the bible are true?

    And/Or

    How could you possibly know if he is telling the truth or not?


    Assertion
    I assert that a being of the power that could defy or create the laws of nature could easily lie to anyone or anything as it chooses without possibility of detection.

    I assert that God's true intentions/motivations are unknowable so it is impossible to determine if God has the motivation to lie or not.

    Proving that one element of the bible is true does not logically prove any other element is also true.

  2. #2
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I may have floated this as an OP in the past. I somewhat expect it to vanish in a wave of silence but recent debates reminded me of the question.

    Assuming
    God is real
    God is at least powerful enough to have performed the miracles presented in the bible.
    The Bible is the word of God

    Question
    How do you know God is telling mankind the truth about himself and that the words of the bible are true?

    And/Or

    How could you possibly know if he is telling the truth or not?


    Assertion
    I assert that a being of the power that could defy or create the laws of nature could easily lie to anyone or anything as it chooses without possibility of detection.

    I assert that God's true intentions/motivations are unknowable so it is impossible to determine if God has the motivation to lie or not.

    Proving that one element of the bible is true does not logically prove any other element is also true.
    First beg excuse for poor in english and knowledge as you have.True and lie are our concept.God started bigbang and gave motion to world also god controls the speed as darkenergy/darkmatter to save universe from big crunch.Before we accepted the theory of Gallilio,newton,einstein these were
    lie for mankind.Hence as far I learn a little from discourses and some books
    God acts as we wish and is beyond truth/lie.

  3. #3
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I may have floated this as an OP in the past. I somewhat expect it to vanish in a wave of silence but recent debates reminded me of the question.

    Assuming
    God is real
    God is at least powerful enough to have performed the miracles presented in the bible.
    The Bible is the word of God

    Question
    How do you know God is telling mankind the truth about himself and that the words of the bible are true?

    And/Or

    How could you possibly know if he is telling the truth or not?


    Assertion
    I assert that a being of the power that could defy or create the laws of nature could easily lie to anyone or anything as it chooses without possibility of detection.

    I assert that God's true intentions/motivations are unknowable so it is impossible to determine if God has the motivation to lie or not.

    Proving that one element of the bible is true does not logically prove any other element is also true.
    'What is truth?"

    God (Jesus Christ) remained silent.
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

    How can a moral wrong be a Civil Right?

  4. #4
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I may have floated this as an OP in the past. I somewhat expect it to vanish in a wave of silence but recent debates reminded me of the question.

    Assuming
    God is real
    God is at least powerful enough to have performed the miracles presented in the bible.
    The Bible is the word of God

    Question
    How do you know God is telling mankind the truth about himself and that the words of the bible are true?

    And/Or

    How could you possibly know if he is telling the truth or not?


    Assertion
    I assert that a being of the power that could defy or create the laws of nature could easily lie to anyone or anything as it chooses without possibility of detection.

    I assert that God's true intentions/motivations are unknowable so it is impossible to determine if God has the motivation to lie or not.

    Proving that one element of the bible is true does not logically prove any other element is also true.
    Can God make 1+1=3?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  5. #5
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Can God make 1+1=3?
    Probably not, but the question is really whether he could make us believe that 1+1=3.

  6. #6
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Probably not, but the question is really whether he could make us believe that 1+1=3.
    Of course not. We know 1+1=2.

    We would know God was lying if He asserted something we knew was not true.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  7. #7
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Of course not. We know 1+1=2.

    We would know God was lying if He asserted something we knew was not true.
    Really?

    If God made people believe that 6 days is actually equal to several million years, why can't he make them believe 1+1=3?
    "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will. "
    -Gandhi

  8. #8
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by gobraves View Post
    Really?

    If God made people believe that 6 days is equal to several million years, why can't he make them believe 1+1=3?
    You're making a mistake here.

    May argument:

    P = We know God has lied
    Q = God tells us something
    R = We believe ~Q

    P is true if and only if (Q and R) is true.

    In your example, the people who believe in an Earth that is millions of years old do not believe that the proper interpretation of the opening of Genesis is 6 literal days. So they do not believe that 6 days = several million years; they believe the phrase "day" in Genesis is used as a figure of speech.

    Thus, since R is false, (Q and R) is false, so P is false.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  9. #9
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    You're making a mistake here.

    May argument:

    P = We know God has lied
    Q = God tells us something
    R = We believe ~Q

    P is true if and only if (Q and R) is true.

    In your example, the people who believe in an Earth that is millions of years old do not believe that the proper interpretation of the opening of Genesis is 6 literal days. So they do not believe that 6 days = several million years; they believe the phrase "day" in Genesis is used as a figure of speech.

    Thus, since R is false, (Q and R) is false, so P is false.
    If God said 1+1=3... then it would equal three.
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

    How can a moral wrong be a Civil Right?

  10. #10
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    If God said 1+1=3... then it would equal three.
    I disagree. If we posit a god such that "1+1=3" is consistent with his character, then we are not referring to the Christian God, since we know "1+1=2" is consistent with His character. So god cannot be the same as the Christian God.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  11. #11
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    You're making a mistake here.

    May argument:

    P = We know God has lied
    Q = God tells us something
    R = We believe ~Q

    P is true if and only if (Q and R) is true.

    In your example, the people who believe in an Earth that is millions of years old do not believe that the proper interpretation of the opening of Genesis is 6 literal days. So they do not believe that 6 days = several million years; they believe the phrase "day" in Genesis is used as a figure of speech.

    Thus, since R is false, (Q and R) is false, so P is false.

    I understand all that, but my point was that if God was lying, humans wouldn't know, and wouldn't want to know. When I stated that God can make us believe 1 +1 = 3, I meant the concept of God , not God himself.

    If you think about it, God doesn't have to make us believe that 1 +1 = 3, we would make ourselves believe it.

    For example, using the six days of creation again:

    God tell us it took him 6 days to make the Earth(Q) and we believe (R). However, we later discover that it actually took much longer. Rather than entering state (P), in which we believe he lied, we actually changed (Q), in this case by stating that six days = several million years, so that we can enter state (R) again. My point is, humans will believe anything to validate God. He may not directly make us believe that 1 +1 = 3, but our faith in him, and desire for his existence will. As a result, if God lies, many humans, instead of accepting it, would try to find ways to change the lie into truth.
    "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will. "
    -Gandhi

  12. #12
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by gobraves View Post
    I understand all that, but my point was that if God was lying, humans wouldn't know, and wouldn't want to know; when I stated that God can make us believe 1 +1 = 3, I meant the concept of God , not God himself.

    If you think about it, God doesn't have to make us believe that 1 +1 = 3, we would make ourselves believe it.

    For example, using the six days of creation again:

    God tell us it took him 6 days to make the Earth(Q) and we believe (R). However, we later discover that it actually took much longer. Rather than entering state (P), in which we believe he lied, we actually changed (Q), in this case by stating that six days = several million years, so that we can enter state (R) again. My point is, humans will believe anything to validate God. He may not directly make us believe that 1 +1 = 3, but our faith in him, and desire for his existence will. As a result, if God lies, many humans, instead of accepting it, would try to find ways to change the lie into truth.
    Except that we don't actually change Q, do we? We change our interpretation of what God meant by Q--that is, we challenge the reliability of mapping "it took Him 6 literal days to make the Earth" to Q.

    For instance, if I said "I'm so hungry, I could eat a horse," and you interpreted this to mean that I wanted to eat a horse, but as you went out to kill Mr. Ed, you decided that your interpretation was flawed, are you really changing my claim (that is, Q)? Or are you changing your idea of what my claim is?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  13. #13
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Just out of curiosity, how do we ever know anyone is telling the truth?

  14. #14
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    1 is metaphorical for 1.5, thus 1+1=3, just like 6 days is metaphorical for 6 epochs?


    Opposing theory to the creation of the "known universe". Read it carefully, it's not a difficult read on physics and quantum mechanics.

  15. #15
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how do we ever know anyone is telling the truth?
    A decent question. I'd say there are a number of means for discovering this depending on the subject. We could verify with other people we trusted. We could base our assessment on past performance. We could investigate the claims indipendently to verify them. The third is likely the most telling and convincing.

    A normal person would have no special powers of deception.

    It is an interesting point raised earlier that God in his powers could simply create truth as he sees fit and thus 1+1 could = 3 if he so chose to create the universe in that way. So what motivation is there for lying? Creating the universe could be one of the lies however and Gods power is only sufficient for manipulating it in ways we don't understand. I think any being with powers outside our understanding is sufficient for the test.

    The example of 1+1=3 is interesting in that it is self evident for us what the "true" answer is, but God teaches no mathematics or science. His teaching is spiritual in nature. His most elemental truths are about his own power and nature and the history and nature of man. Some we have verified (historical events especially in the new testament), for others the empirical evidence argues against (age of earth, the great flood etc...).

  16. #16
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I may have floated this as an OP in the past. I somewhat expect it to vanish in a wave of silence but recent debates reminded me of the question.

    Assuming
    God is real
    God is at least powerful enough to have performed the miracles presented in the bible.
    The Bible is the word of God

    Question
    How do you know God is telling mankind the truth about himself and that the words of the bible are true?

    And/Or

    How could you possibly know if he is telling the truth or not?


    Assertion
    I assert that a being of the power that could defy or create the laws of nature could easily lie to anyone or anything as it chooses without possibility of detection.

    I assert that God's true intentions/motivations are unknowable so it is impossible to determine if God has the motivation to lie or not.

    Proving that one element of the bible is true does not logically prove any other element is also true.
    Taking your assumption that the Bible is God's word, Jesus said in John 10:35

    "...the Scripture cannot be broken..."

    In Titus 1:2 Paul says,

    "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  17. #17
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    I disagree. If we posit a god such that "1+1=3" is consistent with his character, then we are not referring to the Christian God, since we know "1+1=2" is consistent with His character. So god cannot be the same as the Christian God.

    God is impervious to human concepts and understanding of time and space -- Truth and lies.


    Why is it you believe God can say 'Let there be light" to create light....

    Yet disagree that God could also say 1+1=3 and have it be true as well? God need only will it. To say it.

    By constraining God to the laws of nature and physics that HE created and are revealed to us through science and math -- you posit an argument for an impotent god, and also argue against the existence of miracles.
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

    How can a moral wrong be a Civil Right?

  18. #18
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    Taking your assumption that the Bible is God's word, Jesus said in John 10:35

    "...the Scripture cannot be broken..."

    In Titus 1:2 Paul says,

    "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"
    I can come to you and say "I never lie." Will you now believe all that I tell you? A liar can very easily claim never to be lying.

    How do you know God (through these prophets) is telling you the truth when he tells you he does not lie? What sort of liar actually admits to you they are lying when trying to persuade you?

    I just don't see how the sources testimony could possibly good evidence of honesty.

  19. #19
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    God is impervious to human concepts and understanding of time and space -- Truth and lies.


    Why is it you believe God can say 'Let there be light" to create light....

    Yet disagree that God could also say 1+1=3 and have it be true as well? God need only will it. To say it.
    If He did so, He would contradict His own character (since we know 1+1=2 is consistent with His character).

    By constraining God to the laws of nature and physics that HE created and are revealed to us through science and math -- you posit an argument for an impotent god, and also argue against the existence of miracles.
    You're misapplying my argument. I'm not saying God is bound by His creation; I'm saying His creation tells us about His character.

    If what you are saying is true, then God could change anything at any moment. God could decide to send people to Hell. God could decide not to keep promises. God could decide to self-annihilate.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  20. #20
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    Re: How would you know if God is lying?

    This is elementary. We won't know per se WHEN god is lying but he certainly does. I know this because his book tells me thus.

    The bible says that god causes some people to lie. In one bible story god wants to make a king do something, and asks some of the spirits there in heaven how it can be accomplished. (So much for omniscience!) One spirit volunteers to lie to the king via his prophets. God thinks it's a good idea and sends the spirit to do it. Later, the bible tells us:

    1 Kings 22:23: "Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in
    the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning
    thee."

    So god tells a spirit to go and lie. This is done at the specific request of god. The Lord put the lying spirit in the mouths of the prophets, says the bible. So the prophets were indeed getting information from a divine source and repeating it, but what they were repeating were lies.

    Ezekiel 14:9 tells us: "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a
    thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet..."

    So god sometimes causes prophets to make false prophecy! What does this say about supposed prophecies
    in the bible? Can believers show us that the supposed prophecies in Revelation are not also false ones from god? Of course not. So even if the prophecies in Revelation are indeed given to a prophet from god, there is no
    guarantee that they're not false prophecy.

    Bad enough? It gets worse. The god of the bible sometimes causes people to be decieved so he can send them to hell. Second Thessalonians tells us the following (NIV):

    2Th. 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they
    will believe the lie
    2Th. 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth
    but have delighted in wickedness.

    The KJV has it this way:

    2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should
    believe a lie:
    2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had
    pleasure in unrighteousness.

    So god send some people a delusion, a lie, to make them believe something false. And he specifically does this "that they all might be damned." So god wants to damn some people, and he sends them a lie for them to believe,and he
    damns them for believing it.

    In Heaven there is no beer. That's why we drink it here.

    Rogue Cardinal, Member of the God-Awful Atheist Syndicate


 

 
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