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  1. #41
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    yes at any time.

    A simple Google search shows where one get late term abortions in the US. It is not harder -- as in more difficult to obtain -- rather more advanced medical facilities are required. That is all.

    Completely legal.

    http://www.gracemedicalcare.com/?gcl...FRwhDQodjSAWiA
    Support or retract. Just giving me a link is link-warz, not support. Where in that site does it say that the legal right to late-term abortions is no different than the legal right to early-term abortions?

    As far as support for my side of this issue:

    The United States Supreme Court decisions on abortion, including Roe v. Wade, allow states to impose more restrictions on post-viability abortions than during the earlier stages of pregnancy.

    As of April 2007, 36 states had bans on late-term abortions that were not facially unconstitutional (i.e. banning all abortions) or enjoined by court order.[16] In addition, the Supreme Court in the case of Gonzales v. Carhart ruled that Congress may ban certain late-term abortion techniques, "both previability and postviability".

    Also, 13 states prohibit abortion after a certain number of weeks' gestation (usually 24 weeks).[16]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

    Until you rebut this with actual support, my statement that abortions in later stages are more restricted stands.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    And yet you refuse to state exactly when a human is developed enough to not be killed?

    It is a simple questions requiring a simple answer.
    And I've given a simple answer numerous times. Shall I do it again?

    As I said, I support the general state of US law. Easy access to abortion in the early stages of a pregnancy, more restricted access in later stages of pregnancy, very severe restrictions when the fetus is viable, and of course once the baby is born it cannot be legally killed.

    That is your answer! Now, stop asking me to answer a question I've answered numerous times already.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Yet you refuse to give one based on ethics rather than merely laws -- laws which you seem to not fully comprehend.
    I have shown to comprehend them better than you. And I'm not saying I agree with the laws because they are the laws (so I am not presenting a legal argument). I'm just using the laws to show you where my ethical boundaries are - they just so happen to coincide with the law. If the laws were different, then I could not use them to show where my ethics lie.

    I have answered your question numerous times.

    Now either provide a rebuttal or stop responding.




    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    and BTW -- you got me on the semantics issue -- a hazard of posting between doing e-mails in three languages. My apologies.
    Well, I'll give you some kudos for admitting when you are mistaken.

  2. #42
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Did you not see his comment?
    Obviously you did not. It does, however, make your posts seemed deranged and utterly pathetic so please continue to not write them and respond out of your "automatic reply booklet to subjects" that your kind operate, wholly dependently from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    He seems to suggest it wouldnt be such a bad thing to abort if the child was gay.
    I assume he wouldn't though, but since he against homosexuality I merely thought he might brainwash the child into being straight.

    That is not to say he would, of course.
    Red Herring. You are grossly and deliberately misrepresenting what I said to adjust it to what you wanted me to have said to allow yourself to further attempt Christian ideals and morality(which your attempts to do so normally result in utter and laughable failure.)

    I clearly said that I am against all abortions always. But if someone chooses to abort a child, then doing so you are having a baby that is likely to be gay is JUST AS GOOD OF A REASON as any other.
    I really enjoy reading your posts. Deranged posts like this one make me smile. =]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Gay people are not ashamed to be gay. They are afraid of being attacked and vilified for being themselves. Something you can never understand.
    Hmmm...but this rant is in response to a point that I made saying that gay people should not live a lifestyle that makes them suicidal...

    Quote = You "No wonder the suicide rate among homosexuals is so high."

    Yet, here, you say that they are not ashamed of that lifestyle at all.
    ....so....as ridiculous as it sounds, coming from a sane person at least, your position is that their suicide rate is higher because they are afraid of being vilified?

    It took me a few minutes to stop laughing....continuing.... If homosexuals are so incredibly emotionally fragile that they would commit suicide over ridicule, then I would submit that they are emotionally inferior to heterosexuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Except you didn't say it. You said it 'wouldn't be such a bad thing', almost as if you'd prefer it.
    Red Herring. Again intentionally misrepresenting my position and trying to make my statements infer something from your imagination.

    I PREFER that noone gets an abortion....for any reason. But, being that it is legal to do, they should have the right to get it for whatever reason that they wish....including if they do not want a gay son.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    You have some proof that woman choose to have elective late term abortions?
    Do you content that all abortions are early term ones? I can produce several news letters of women getting or trying to get partial birth abortions. That is about as late term as it gets. I challenge you to produce evidence that all women that get abortions only get early term ones.....thats right...you do not do challenges, I wonder why.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Do your research and you'll find that the vast majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks.
    But not all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    I also think you forgot that partial birth abortion is illegal in the states.
    according to your rambling, it should not be. I mean, do we want irresponsible women to die trying to get illegal partial birth abortions? No, we want the babies to die, right? After all, it is their fault for being alive....not the slut that was irresponsible....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    What baby? It's a fetus. How about we use the correct terms here?
    It is a baby nonetheless. You can call a human a tree....and if you kill that "tree" because you are irresponsible and unwilling to pay for your mistakes and foolishness, then you are still a murderer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    A bunch of propaganda and petty emotionalism....
    This made me laugh....you have such a hatred and intolerance for Christians and Conservatives that it is humorous. Yet, I bet you are on the "tolerance bandwagon" on topics you personally ascribe to. That is defined as being a hypocrite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Keep in mind that 'they' means 'many'. Not all. But many.
    I suspect that your definition of many is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    There are so many problems with conservatives its not funny.
    This reminds me of an old saying " To be damned, by the damned, is a true blessing"

    ---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Support or retract. Just giving me a link is link-warz, not support. Where in that site does it say that the legal right to late-term abortions is no different than the legal right to early-term abortions?
    Clearly, the legal right to late term abortions is different than the legal right to early term abortions.

    The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (Pub.L. 108-105, 117 Stat. 1201, enacted November 5, 2003, 18 U.S.C. § 1531[1], PBA Ban) is a United States law prohibiting a form of late-term abortion that the Act calls partial-birth abortion. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the term "partial-birth abortion" in the act pertains to a procedure that is medically called intact dilation and extraction.[2] Under this law, "Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both." The law was enacted in 2003, and in 2007 its constitutionality was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court, in the case of Gonzales v. Carhart.

  3. #43
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoamI View Post
    The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (Pub.L. 108-105, 117 Stat. 1201, enacted November 5, 2003, 18 U.S.C. § 1531[1], PBA Ban) is a United States law prohibiting a form of late-term abortion that the Act calls partial-birth abortion. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the term "partial-birth abortion" in the act pertains to a procedure that is medically called intact dilation and extraction.[2] Under this law, "Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both." The law was enacted in 2003, and in 2007 its constitutionality was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court, in the case of Gonzales v. Carhart.
    This law merely banned a certain procedure.

    Late term abortions are still available and done on a routine basis in the US.

    http://www.drhern.com/medicalprocedures.asp
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

    How can a moral wrong be a Civil Right?

  4. #44
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    This law merely banned a certain procedure.

    Late term abortions are still available and done on a routine basis in the US.

    http://www.drhern.com/medicalprocedures.asp
    I am aware of that. Mican made the statement that the laws between early and late term abortions were the exact same. Clearly, they are not as this ban shows late term abortions are more strictly regulated.

  5. #45
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoamI View Post
    I am aware of that. Mican made the statement that the laws between early and late term abortions were the exact same.
    Actually, I said the opposite. I was challenging Sparty to show where his link said the laws are the same, not stating for myself that they are the same.

  6. #46
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Actually, I said the opposite. I was challenging Sparty to show where his link said the laws are the same, not stating for myself that they are the same.
    Ah....then I was mistaken on who made the claim...the reference I provide still stands, nonetheless.

  7. #47
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    This law merely banned a certain procedure.

    Late term abortions are still available and done on a routine basis in the US.

    http://www.drhern.com/medicalprocedures.asp
    Elective late term abortions? Can a woman walk into a clinic, 6 months pregnant and abort simply because she cant be bothered being pregnant anymore?

    Or could these late term abortions be done for medical reasons? Fetal defect, mothers life in danger, etc?

    ---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 PM ----------

    @WhoAmI:

    Do you content that all abortions are early term ones? I can produce several news letters of women getting or trying to get partial birth abortions. That is about as late term as it gets. I challenge you to produce evidence that all women that get abortions only get early term ones.....thats right...you do not do challenges, I wonder why.......
    Women are just so desperate to put themselves through a two day procedure which causes great pain just so they can get the thrill of having the fetuses brains sucked out through a straw.
    That is essentially what you are saying.

    But not all.
    This is a PP site so I guess to you it would be biased...

    Most abortions — nearly 90 percent — are provided in the first trimester — the first three months of pregnancy. Fewer than 11 percent take place in the second trimester. Abortion is very rare and only done for serious health reasons after 24 weeks.
    So there goes your claim about women trying to get themselves elective late term abortions.

    52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.
    http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

    Around 90% of abortions are performed within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.
    In the United States, nearly nine in 10 abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy and 56% occur in the first eight weeks
    http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/timing.html

    I guess I will wait until you can produce me with ONE woman who has opted for an elective, late term abortion. Healthy fetus and all.

    ---------- Post added at 07:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:42 PM ----------

    @JustMe and Talthas -

    Wrong, that is not exactly what he was trying to say from what I read of his post. My understanding of his post was if the reason to about just for the hell of it is fine, then the reason to abort because of the possibility of being gay should also be fine. Abortion out of convenience or as a method of birthcontrol is no more reasonable then aborting to prevent the couple having a homosexual child...
    I obviously misread what he wrote. My bad.

    You all want support for my claims. I never presented them as facts. I would bet that some conservatives think the same things I posted.
    I'll do what WhoAmI did in the women fighting on the frontline thread and claim it was my own personal observations. If it's fine for him, its fine for me.

    I am not saying liberals dont have their fair share of problems. Of course they do, but liberals tend to be pro choice. From my observations, I have encountered many conservative pro lifers who would like abortion banned, but they cannot recognise the problems this would cause. Some conservatives could and prefer that Roe v Wade stay as it is, others just want it banned, screw the potential problems.

    No, not all conservatives are pro life. I have never met a conservative who is pro choice, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

    As for women having late term abortions...late term is defined as being in the third trimester, so this is 6/7 months beyond.
    Women DO have late term abortions, but I have not yet seen anyone present me with a healthy woman who chose to have a late term abortion on her healthy fetus.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Elective late term abortions? Can a woman walk into a clinic, 6 months pregnant and abort simply because she cant be bothered being pregnant anymore?

    Yes -- up until birth.

    For example, say a woman is 8 months pregnant with the child of a boyfriend who just dumped her and wants to kill the child -- in large part for revenge -- Totally legal.

    On the USSC's upholding of the partial birth abortion ban -- a ban on a particular procedure -- tbut does not patently outlaw late term abortions up to the point of birth: Essentially the ban makes it illegal for a woman to be conscious, and essentially go through the birthing process, only to have the infant killed while inside her. These days, the procedure is more surgical and is usually done under general anasthesia.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/wa...ewanted=2&_r=1
    "In her opinion, Justice Ginsburg said the majority had provided only “flimsy and transparent justifications” for upholding the law, which she noted “saves not a single fetus from destruction” by banning a single method of abortion."

    ALSO -- yet to be mentioned is the hypocrisy in most states who legally give offspring no right to expect not to be killed -- yet charge people for murdering those same offspring.

    http://crime.about.com/od/issues/a/fetalhomicide.htm

    Prosecutors attempted to charge Robert Keeler with the beating of his wife and for the murder of the fetus, "Baby Girl Vogt" named with her fathers last name.

    The California Supreme Court dismissed the charges, saying that only someone born alive could be killed, and that the fetus was not a human being.

    Due to public pressure the murder statute was eventually amended to say that murder charges can only apply to fetuses older than seven weeks, or beyond the embryonic stage.

    It is this law which is being used now to prosecute Scott Peterson with two counts of murder of Laci Peterson, his wife, and their seven month unborn son, Conner.
    Last edited by Spartacus; September 15th, 2009 at 10:21 PM.
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

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  9. #49
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Women are just so desperate to put themselves through a two day procedure which causes great pain just so they can get the thrill of having the fetuses brains sucked out through a straw.
    That is essentially what you are saying.
    It seems I was wrong...you do have a skill after all. It is the skill to create red herrings from statements and positions that otherwise would be difficult to do so. You should have been Hitlers propaganda minister.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    This is a PP site so I guess to you it would be biased...
    To anyone with any sense of integrity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    So there goes your claim about women trying to get themselves elective late term abortions.
    Actually it defeats your position. My position was clear in that women do elect to get late term abortions. You provide the evidence that supports my claim...thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    As for women having late term abortions...late term is defined as being in the third trimester, so this is 6/7 months beyond.
    Women DO have late term abortions, but I have not yet seen anyone present me with a healthy woman who chose to have a late term abortion on her healthy fetus.
    So, is your position REALLY that no women EVER or would EVER elect to have a partial birth abortion?

    Why in the hell was there a need for the government to put a ban on it then?

  10. #50
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    You all want support for my claims. I never presented them as facts. I would bet that some conservatives think the same things I posted.
    The "fact that (insert nasty thing about "conservatives" here)" certainly sounds like you're presenting facts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja
    I'll do what WhoAmI did in the women fighting on the frontline thread and claim it was my own personal observations. If it's fine for him, its fine for me.
    Just because one person uses a weak argument doesn't mean that it makes yours any stronger when you do it yourself, and it doesn't remove the burden of proof for either of you. If you make a claim, support it. Otherwise, withdraw it. Same goes for anyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja
    From my observations, I have encountered many conservative pro lifers who would like abortion banned, but they cannot recognise the problems this would cause.
    Are you sure it's an inability to recognize the problem, or is it simply a willingness to have that problem in the interest of ending what they believe to be a protracted campaign of mass murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja
    No, not all conservatives are pro life. I have never met a conservative who is pro choice, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
    I'm not sure what you think a conservative is, but I'm willing to bet that if you stopped associating "conservative" and "pro-life" so closely with each other you'd realize that there are a lot of people who are in favor of small government, big personal accountability and responsibility, and contribution to society being the only determination of what one is entitled to receive from society, barring infirmity or disability... and they don't care whether someone has an abortion or not. The media has been pushing one particular breed of "conservatism" for so long, with this pre-made package of issues that there are too many people that are unwilling to see that there is a huge range of political beliefs and that not everybody cares about abortion as a social issue.

    I'm strongly conservative in my political views, but I'm relatively liberal in my social views. I have a deep distrust of centralized government and really believe that people should be left alone to live as they choose, so long as they aren't hurting someone else's right to do that. I'm about as libertarian as they come, really. And I don't give a rip whether you or anyone else wants to have an abortion. I'd much rather someone have an abortion and be responsible about who they choose to bring into the world than someone have 10 kids they can't support, forcing me to do it for them.

    Nothing of what you said in your tirade accomplished a single thing, in terms of this debate, except stirring the mud and clouding the issue. That is my objection to your statements. They neither lend weight to your arguments nor detract from anyone else's, and they are inflammatory and inaccurate.

    So, my challenge is that you either support your statements and show how they fit into your central claim (whatever that may be)... or you withdraw the statements unequivocally from this debate.

  11. #51
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    @Spart -

    You said
    Yes -- up until birth.

    For example, say a woman is 8 months pregnant with the child of a boyfriend who just dumped her and wants to kill the child -- in large part for revenge -- Totally legal.
    Show me one woman who has elected for a late term abortion at eight months. Just because it might be legal, does not mean that law has been taken advantage of.

    @WhoAmI - you need to get over the personal attacks, or I'll be reporting you. You said

    My position was clear in that women do elect to get late term abortions. You provide the evidence that supports my claim...thank you
    Yet you cannot produce just ONE woman who has elected to abort her healthy fetus, can you?

    So, is your position REALLY that no women EVER or would EVER elect to have a partial birth abortion?

    Why in the hell was there a need for the government to put a ban on it then?
    Perhaps because a bunch of people were paranoid, thinking women abort cuddly little babies? Perhaps this law made them believe they were winning the fight in overturning Roe? Who knows.

    But find me a woman who has elected for a late term abortion. Healthy woman, healthy fetus, after 6 months. Find me just one. I'll wait.

    @Talthas -
    So, my challenge is that you either support your statements and show how they fit into your central claim (whatever that may be)... or you withdraw the statements unequivocally from this debate.
    I'll use WhoAmI's excuse again and say it's based on my own personal observations - which it is. Perhaps I should not have used the word 'fact' as this did indeed seem like I was saying all conservatives are like this. I will say that some will think this, others may agree with a few points, few may disagree with all points.
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  12. #52
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I never claimed all risks will lead to a worst case scenario. Yet, doctors take an oath to do no harm and performing unnecessary surgeries puts that oath in jeopardy.
    Right...


    I shouldn't have claimed this. I am at work... lol.
    http://www.catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=32347
    "President Obama quietly begun the process of overturning regulations that protect doctors and hospitals from being forced to perform or refer abortions."
    In Mexico, such a right for doctors has been removed. In Canada, it is being pushed. While Bush signed into law a bill allowing for doctors to be conscientious objectors, it is being fought
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...r=U.S._4371761
    Furthermore, doctors who merely oppose most forms of abortion, may not be protected.
    I'm not over looking this, I will get back to this..


    You'd have to explain the procedure to me. If it surgery which does not correct some physical or mental problem, then it would be of questionable ethics.
    Not all physical 'problems' are surgically necessary..


    You're missing the point. ALL surgeries carry risks. Doctors who perform unnecessary surgeries are pushing the ethical envelope.
    Right....

    An argument can be made. Certainly. I am not making it here as we are solely discussing abortions.
    Then why bring it up in the first place if you do not want to discuss the difference?
    That was the point of the article I linked. Doctors performing elective c-sections may be acting unethically precisely because they may be undermining the oath they took.
    As well as ANY other elective UNnecessary surgery.


    The question is whether abortions, when done electively, are ethical. Is it ethical for a doctor to perform surgery to remove a part of someone which is 100% healthy and normal? Your claim is that their oath is unimportant. The mother's interests outweigh any oath the doctor has taken. My argument is that doctors who perform elective abortions act unethically because they break the very simple oath, "do no harm."
    Why limit this to abortions? A woman who is 100% healthy and normal who elects to have plastic surgery simply because they do not like their face because of wrinkles or whatever, will be causing the doctors who perform these surgeries to break their oath, correct? If not, then what's the difference?
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  13. #53
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    @WhoAmI - you need to get over the personal attacks, or I'll be reporting you.
    There were no personal attacks. I attack your ridiculous points and utterly absurd opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Yet you cannot produce just ONE woman who has elected to abort her healthy fetus, can you?
    Is this really the ground on which you make your "point" Its so laughable that I cannot contain myself. Why do women go to abortion clinics? I personally know 3 different girls that elected to abort a perfectly healthy child. I PERSONALLY KNOW THEM.

    This is the weakness argument that I have ever heard....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Perhaps because a bunch of people were paranoid, thinking women abort cuddly little babies?
    So...noone ever got a partial birth abortion....ever....wow. What world do you get this idea from?

    I guess this guy is lying:

    "In the vast majority of cases, the procedure (partial birth abortions) is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along. The abortion-rights folks know it, the anti-abortion folks know it, and so, probably, does everyone else."

    - Ron Fitzsimmons
    Executive Director for the National
    Coalition of Abortion Providers
    The New York Times, February 26, 1997

    Yep...he is lying....YOU know better....YOU know that every single abortion in America...no..the world was only done early and ONLY the result of the baby...no, the horrid group of cells....will be defective upon birth.

    I honestly cannot even believe that YOU would have this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Perhaps this law made them believe they were winning the fight in overturning Roe? Who knows.
    Your undying hatred towards people that want to conserve a babys life never ceases to amaze me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    But find me a woman who has elected for a late term abortion. Healthy woman, healthy fetus, after 6 months. Find me just one. I'll wait.
    You are done waiting.

    http://www.christianliferesources.co...&articleid=939

    Specifically, this quote within:

    Quote Originally Posted by Article on Dr. Martin Haskell
    Number Performed Per Year:

    The annual performance of partial-birth abortions is not known since state-reporting is not mandated. Dr. Martin Haskell reported in his 1992 presentation (see above) that, at that time, he had performed 700 partial-birth abortions in his practice. Abortion-industry groups state that the yearly total ranged from 2,200 for the year 2000 (The Alan Guttmacher Institute [AGI], an affiliate with the Planned Parenthood Federation of America [PPFA], a major abortion provider) to 3,000-5,000 (in 1997, by Ron Fitzsimmons, the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers).
    He is lying too right?

    As such:

    Challenge to support a claim.
    Support or Retract: No women in the United States have ever received late -term abortions commonly referred to as Partial Birth Abortions.

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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    @Spart -

    You said

    Show me one woman who has elected for a late term abortion at eight months. Just because it might be legal, does not mean that law has been taken advantage of.

    1.) I don't need to show one woman. In fact in teh US the reasons, or lack of reasons why a woman kills her developing offspring are not up for debate. That is protected under patient privacy laws. SO your point is totally irrlevant....except:

    2.) It would appear you think an abortion for convenience in the 8th month is wrong. Just when exactly does it stop being ethical for a woman to have an abortion out of convenience: 6 weeks, 12, 20? -- please state your answer and give reasons.
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

    How can a moral wrong be a Civil Right?

  15. #55
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Show me one woman who has elected for a late term abortion at eight months. Just because it might be legal, does not mean that law has been taken advantage of.
    Women DO indeed attempt to have late term abortions.. And to support that, read the following..
    The day before Tiller's death, a woman came into Carhart's Nebraska clinic 28 weeks along. Carhart asked her what she would do if she had to carry the baby to term. "She didn't say she was going to kill herself," he says. "She said she would put it up [for adoption]." He turned her away.
    http://www.newsweek.com/id/212017

    Yet you cannot produce just ONE woman who has elected to abort her healthy fetus, can you?
    Keep reading
    In 1993, a pregnant teenager and her parents traveled 900 miles to Tiller's office in Kansas to receive an elective late-term abortion.
    From July 1998, when reporting began, until December 1998, Tiller performed 227 abortions after 22 weeks. 91 of these abortions were performed after the baby had reached viability. For each abortion, he was asked to indicate whether the abortion was necessary to save the life of the mother. In each case, his answer was no.
    During the same period, Tiller performed 58 "partial birth" abortions. All of these abortions were done on babies that had reached viability. Tiller was again asked to indicate, for each "partial birth" abortion (PBA), whether the procedure was done to preserve the physical health or the mental health of his patient. As expected, the answer given every time was mental health. Not one of his "partial birth" abortions was done for physical health reasons.
    http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Tiller.html



    But find me a woman who has elected for a late term abortion. Healthy woman, healthy fetus, after 6 months. Find me just one. I'll wait.
    I will also post here from above just incase you happened to miss it
    The day before Tiller's death, a woman came into Carhart's Nebraska clinic 28 weeks along. Carhart asked her what she would do if she had to carry the baby to term. "She didn't say she was going to kill herself," he says. "She said she would put it up [for adoption]." He turned her away.

    I'll use WhoAmI's excuse again and say it's based on my own personal observations - which it is. Perhaps I should not have used the word 'fact' as this did indeed seem like I was saying all conservatives are like this. I will say that some will think this, others may agree with a few points, few may disagree with all points.
    Even personal opinions should be supported with a logical explanation. So do you retract the statements or do you want to support them with a logical explanation?
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin
    "Go big or Go home"~ LoLo Bean

  16. #56
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoamI View Post
    Is this really the ground on which you make your "point" Its so laughable that I cannot contain myself. Why do women go to abortion clinics? I personally know 3 different girls that elected to abort a perfectly healthy child. I PERSONALLY KNOW THEM.
    I dont care if you personally know three women who chose to have a partial birth abortion. Its not proof. Produce them. I asked you to produce just ONE woman who has had an elective late term abortion, and you cannot do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoamI View Post
    So...noone ever got a partial birth abortion....ever....wow. What world do you get this idea from
    I never said no woman ever got a PBA.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoamI View Post
    I guess this guy is lying:
    Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoamI View Post
    Your undying hatred towards people that want to conserve a babys life never ceases to amaze me.
    Your undying hatred toward women who want the right to control their own bodies is sickening.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoamI View Post
    Oh wow, how nice, a lovely Christian site, OBVIOUSLY anti abortion. As if I'm going to believe any trash on that garbage site?

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoamI View Post
    Challenge to support a claim.
    Support or Retract: No women in the United States have ever received late -term abortions commonly referred to as Partial Birth Abortions.
    I never said a woman has NEVER had a partial birth abortion.

    Your statement is false. You obviously have no clue at all what a PBA actually is. ALL partial birth abortions are LATE term abortions, but not all late term abortions are partial birth abortions.
    You are wrong.

    The law also prevents partial birth abortion for any reason. If a woman is having a PBA, it's illegal. So present me one woman who has elected to have a partial birth abortion on a healthy fetus.

    I'll wait here until Xmas if you like.

    ---------- Post added at 06:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:58 PM ----------

    @Just Me

    Keep reading
    In 1993, a pregnant teenager and her parents traveled 900 miles to Tiller's office in Kansas to receive an elective late-term abortion.
    From July 1998, when reporting began, until December 1998, Tiller performed 227 abortions after 22 weeks. 91 of these abortions were performed after the baby had reached viability. For each abortion, he was asked to indicate whether the abortion was necessary to save the life of the mother. In each case, his answer was no.
    During the same period, Tiller performed 58 "partial birth" abortions. All of these abortions were done on babies that had reached viability. Tiller was again asked to indicate, for each "partial birth" abortion (PBA), whether the procedure was done to preserve the physical health or the mental health of his patient. As expected, the answer given every time was mental health. Not one of his "partial birth" abortions was done for physical health reasons.
    Allow me to check this out first.

    But it would be nice if someone could come up with a logical explanation as to why a woman would opt for a PBA which can take place over a period of 48 hours or more, leaving her in great pain, when she could simply have labour induced and give birth to a stillborn baby?

    Which one would you opt for? Abortion over in a few hours, or waiting a few days while your cervix is forceably dilated?

    I am skeptical, so I will ask a friend of mine who is pretty good at finding out whether something is true or not.

    EDIT: Now I am really skeptical. Good thing I looked at the site. Pro life. Of course.

    From Tillers Wiki page:

    Tiller performed late-term abortions, which was one of the reasons he was condemned by pro-life activists. Reportedly Tiller treated patients who discovered late in pregnancy that their fetuses had severe or fatal birth defects. He also aborted healthy late-term fetuses, in cases where two doctors certified that carrying the fetus to term would cause the woman "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function."[26]
    He may have aborted healthy fetuses, but the mother wasn't exactly healthy. Abortions on an unhealthy mother are perfectly acceptable, in my view.
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    But it would be nice if someone could come up with a logical explanation as to why a woman would opt for a PBA which can take place over a period of 48 hours or more, leaving her in great pain, when she could simply have labour induced and give birth to a stillborn baby?
    It's not on us to provide a logical explanation as to WHY someone would do this.

    Which one would you opt for? Abortion over in a few hours, or waiting a few days while your cervix is forceably dilated?
    I personally would never have an abortion. But what 'I' would or would not do has no barring on what someone else would or would do..

    I am skeptical, so I will ask a friend of mine who is pretty good at finding out whether something is true or not.
    And once you ask this friend how bout supporting what your friends says.
    EDIT: Now I am really skeptical. Good thing I looked at the site. Pro life. Of course.
    Just because it is from a pro-life site does not make the information false..

    From Tillers Wiki page:



    He may have aborted healthy fetuses, but the mother wasn't exactly healthy. Abortions on an unhealthy mother are perfectly acceptable, in my view.
    Did you even read any of what I posted? Here let me break it down for you.
    The day before Tiller's death, a woman came into Carhart's Nebraska clinic 28 weeks along. Carhart asked her what she would do if she had to carry the baby to term. "She didn't say she was going to kill herself," he says. "She said she would put it up [for adoption]." He turned her away.

    A woman who was late into her pregnancy came to the clinic to have an ELECTIVE late term abortion. The did not perform the abortion, but you asked for an example of a woman willingly wanting a late term abortion while she was healthy..

    Now moving on...

    In 1993, a pregnant teenager and her parents traveled 900 miles to Tiller's office in Kansas to receive an elective late-term abortion.
    From July 1998, when reporting began, until December 1998, Tiller performed 227 abortions after 22 weeks. 91 of these abortions were performed after the baby had reached viability. For each abortion, he was asked to indicate whether the abortion was necessary to save the life of the mother. In each case, his answer was no.
    During the same period, Tiller performed 58 "partial birth" abortions. All of these abortions were done on babies that had reached viability. Tiller was again asked to indicate, for each "partial birth" abortion (PBA), whether the procedure was done to preserve the physical health or the mental health of his patient. As expected, the answer given every time was mental health. Not one of his "partial birth" abortions was done for physical health reasons.


    If you are not satisfied with the site the information came from therefor believing the information itself is inaccurate then the burden of proof shifts to you to PROVE this information is false...
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin
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  18. #58
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    I dont care if you personally know three women who chose to have a partial birth abortion. Its not proof. Produce them. I asked you to produce just ONE woman who has had an elective late term abortion, and you cannot do it.
    I produced three...I know three PERSONALLY!!!! do you understand that concept? I have a personally relationship on some level with not 1...not 2 but 3 females that have done that E-X-A-C-T thing that you, in your fantasy land reality have claimed never happens.

    3.....that is a number above 2 and before 4....1, 2, 3. Got it? If I want evidence that someone has done something...and 3 people are living proof of it being done, then I have P-R-O-O-F that it has been done...not once...not even twice...but three whole times. 3 is now than none. Do you understand?

    You make me laugh. I provide proof...you wanna ignore it AND claim that professionals that personally attest to getting late term abortions on perfectly healthy babies are lying rather than just admit you are wrong.

    LOL.

    Oh, what a wonderful world you must live in.

    I guess the term "intellectual honesty" is one of those scary phrases for you because you are demonstrating a severe lack of it on this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    I never said no woman ever got a PBA.
    Really? Then what are you saying in that rabbling and hate filled rubbish that you have been harping on this entire discussion? Please be clear, if you are capable of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Probably.
    LOL. So, doctors that have ACTUALLY DONE PBA and late term abortions that are speaking out about it are lying? Oh no, I mean, it could not be that YOU are demonstrating a laughable degree of intellectual dishonesty in this discussion...no, of course not....after all...YOUR opinions are vastly more enlightened than testimony from actual doctors that have been involved in partial birth and other late term abortions. YOUR opinions are the law of the law in spite of certified doctors telling us other wise. JUST because you say that women do not late term abort babies that are healthy that alters the course of history and mandates it so.

    Wow....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Your undying hatred toward women who want the right to control their own bodies is sickening.
    Yeah, it is pretty sickening to believe that you should not suck the brains out of an innocent baby because the mother is:

    a: Too much of a slut to keep her legs closed
    b: Too much of a coward to raise a baby
    c: Too stupid to use proper birth control

    Yeah, murdering an innocent child is much better. Hitler and others similar to him share your view, so at least you know you are not alone in that perverted ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Oh wow, how nice, a lovely Christian site, OBVIOUSLY anti abortion. As if I'm going to believe any trash on that garbage site?
    Of course, since it is a site that is for Christians and quotes a doctor it must be lying. Your powers of logical deduction are amazing...let me try to keep up:

    - That site was a Christian site
    - Anything remotely Christian is garbage , wretched, evil, anti-good, hateful, bigoted, deceitful, untruthful and whatever else you think
    - Therefore, everything on that site must be the above as well.

    REAL sound logic there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    I never said a woman has NEVER had a partial birth abortion.
    Then clarify your weak position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Your statement is false. You obviously have no clue at all what a PBA actually is.
    I educated you on LTA and PBA in my previous thread. Being that you are not honest enough to actual read a Christian post, you missed that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    ALL partial birth abortions are LATE term abortions, but not all late term abortions are partial birth abortions.
    Really?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! /sarcasm

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    You are wrong.
    On any topic that you think I am wrong is proof enough that I am right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    The law also prevents partial birth abortion for any reason. If a woman is having a PBA, it's illegal.
    I suspect that you really hate that they cannot ram a spike into any more babies brains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    So present me one woman who has elected to have a partial birth abortion on a healthy fetus.
    There are many many examples.....Doctors that have attested to performing over 700 PBA....pick any one of those women and there you go

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    I'll wait here until Xmas if you like.
    Yes, please do not leave. I get too many laughs from your "reasoning"
    .

  19. #59
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    The day before Tiller's death, a woman came into Carhart's Nebraska clinic 28 weeks along. Carhart asked her what she would do if she had to carry the baby to term. "She didn't say she was going to kill herself," he says. "She said she would put it up [for adoption]." He turned her away.
    If she was going to put the baby up for adoption, why go to an abortion clinic?

    In 1993, a pregnant teenager and her parents traveled 900 miles to Tiller's office in Kansas to receive an elective late-term abortion.
    ALL late term abortions are going to be elective - even if the mothers life is in danger, she is going to elect to save her life over her childs.
    This says nothing about the health of the fetus or the teenager. All we know is that she wanted to have an abortion, we do not know the reasons behind her decision.

    Tiller was again asked to indicate, for each "partial birth" abortion (PBA), whether the procedure was done to preserve the physical health or the mental health of his patient. As expected, the answer given every time was mental health. Not one of his "partial birth" abortions was done for physical health reasons.
    Here we have no mention of the health of the fetus.

    Yeah, it is pretty sickening to believe that you should not suck the brains out of an innocent baby because the mother is:
    You can prattle on about innocent babies all you like. I will not fall for for such emotional dribble.
    You are also ignoring the FACT that the majority of abortions are performed within the first 12 WEEKS.

    Look at the thread title, will you? 'Abortions for any reason?' This is NOT a thread about partial birth abortion, but as usual, people like you jump on the LEAST performed abortions and act like they are as common as getting a tooth pulled.

    I educated you on LTA and PBA in my previous thread. Being that you are not honest enough to actual read a Christian post, you missed that.
    I am also educated on the subject, a great deal more than you, I assure you - and I do not rely on Christian websites (who are obviously biased) to prove my point. Are they really the only sites you can come up with to prove your point?

    I suspect that you really hate that they cannot ram a spike into any more babies brains.
    This is clear you have no idea what a PBA actually is.

    There are many many examples.....Doctors that have attested to performing over 700 PBA....pick any one of those women and there you go
    Over a million abortions are performed each year, and around 90% take place within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy - yet you choose to focus on the kind of abortion which is rarely performed.

    I have to wonder why?
    Frozen In Time Yearning Forbidden Wishes Damned And Divine
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  20. #60
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    Re: Abortions for ANY reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    If she was going to put the baby up for adoption, why go to an abortion clinic?
    Uhhhh could it just possibly be because she WANTED the abortion? Is that your counter argument for actual support that some women indeed WANT late term abortions?



    ALL late term abortions are going to be elective - even if the mothers life is in danger, she is going to elect to save her life over her childs.
    This says nothing about the health of the fetus or the teenager. All we know is that she wanted to have an abortion, we do not know the reasons behind her decision.
    Ohhh, but yes Ma'am it does....
    Prior to the abortion, Sarah was a perfectly normal baby. The relevant medical records indicate that she had no disabilities or deformities.
    http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Tiller.html
    Not only was she HEALTHY before the attempted abortion, the abortion did NOT kill her. She lived till the age of 5.


    Here we have no mention of the health of the fetus.
    Wow... Tarja, you just keep coming up with something else when I fully support what you asked for.. Let's take another look at what YOU asked for shall we?

    By: YOU
    He may have aborted healthy fetuses, but the mother wasn't exactly healthy. Abortions on an unhealthy mother are perfectly acceptable, in my view.
    Yet you cannot produce just ONE woman who has elected to abort her healthy fetus, can you?
    Already provided this. Read the above...

    I am also educated on the subject, a great deal more than you, I assure you - and I do not rely on Christian websites (who are obviously biased) to prove my point. Are they really the only sites you can come up with to prove your point?
    Instead of just screaming "ur info came from a Christian or pro-life site so I can simply ignore it cause the site is biased" why not actually show that the information that came from the sites are inaccurate? This is really getting old Tarja. I have supported what you asked for. Now it's on you to either concede, retract, OR counter...
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin
    "Go big or Go home"~ LoLo Bean

 

 
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