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  1. #1
    knaunko
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    Question A Copy Cat Relligion

    Hi i am new here so maybe somebody has already started a thread on this subject.
    As far as i can tell, after extensive research, Christianity is a fusion of many different Pagan faiths. Also i have never heard a reasonable counter argument to the extensive proof supporting the statement "CHristianity is a copycat religion".
    Can anyone on here provide such an argument, i would be really greatful.

  2. #2
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    Re: A Copy Cat Relligion

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Hi i am new here so maybe somebody has already started a thread on this subject.
    As far as i can tell, after extensive research, Christianity is a fusion of many different Pagan faiths. Also i have never heard a reasonable counter argument to the extensive proof supporting the statement "CHristianity is a copycat religion".
    Can anyone on here provide such an argument, i would be really greatful.
    No other religion believes that Jesus Christ is the lord and savior of mankind. Of course Christianity has elements of other religions in it. That could be said about any religion.

  3. #3
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    Re: A Copy Cat Relligion

    Christianity as practiced today often features aspects of the religion that it replaced. This is most clearly seen in post-colonial societies where Christianity was spread by missionaries. For example, Native American Christian ritual often incorporated aspects of pre-Christian ritual. In extreme cases a new belief system was formed that did not resemble either (such as Voodoo or Obeah, which were old African beliefs merged with Christian ones in slave societies such as the Caribbean). Holidays like Christmas and Easter are examples of this syncretism as well.

    I think a more interesting question would be whether these influences actually discredit Christianity as the "one true religion" that Christians proclaim it to be.

  4. #4
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    Re: A Copy Cat Relligion

    Why are you guys directly answering this guy's post's for? It's obvious he's a troll or he's never going to come back. He's probably doing an assignment and wants help. What kind of an OP is that? Not even providing an argument with any support. I say move this thread out of this forum or delete if he's never going to come back.

    ---------- Post added at 09:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ----------

    Comments on this post
    Telex disagrees: He posted this less than a day ago. No one's trolling but you.

    You're answering his post as if it provides an actual argument. Perhaps I was too quick to assess his intentions (although I very well might be right and he might not return), but he hasn't provided an actual argument with any support. His thread isn't even in the proper forum. How on earth do you neg rep someone for pointing that out? You're getting so defensive as if I've smacked you across the head. Settle down.

  5. #5
    knaunko
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    Exclamation Re: A Copy Cat Relligion

    KingOfTheEast, please dont go off your rocker, at the beginning of this thread i said i am a total newbie so please go easy on me.
    Proof that Christianity is a copycat religion is rife throughout history here are some points ( i cant take credit for this i got the info from Darkphoenix3450 at crunchyroll.com).

    1. Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.

    2. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.

    3. He had 12 companions or disciples.

    4. Mithra's followers were promised immortality.

    5. He performed miracles.

    6. As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.

    7. He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.

    8. His resurrection was celebrated every year.

    9. He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.

    10. He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."

    11. His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.

    12. Mithra had his principal festival of what was later to become Easter.

    13. His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."

    14. "His annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration."

    15. Shmuel Golding is quoted as saying that 1 Cor. 10:4 is "identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ."

    16. The Catholic Encyclopedia is quoted as saying that Mithraic services were conduced by "fathers" and that the "chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called 'Pater Patratus.'"


    For example 3,000 years before Jesus was born the Egyptians worshiped the god of the Sky and Sun. He was a symbol of light and was called Horus. The Sun itself was called Horus and was also called "God's Sun" or "The Sun of God". We get the word Horizon from "Horus is risen" as the Sun rises in the morning. Horus was born to a virgin mother on December 25 and was adorned by three kings who followed a star to the East. He was baptized at the same age as Jesus and became a profound religious teacher. He had 12 disciples , one of whom betrayed him which ultimately led to his crucifixion. Horus died and rose from the grave three days later. Horus is only one of a dozen Pagan gods who have this same story and the reason is based in astrology. On the night of December 24th the tree stars of Orion's belt, which have been called "the Three Kings" since ancient times point toward the brightest star in the East which we call "Sirius". If you were to draw a line through those four stars and continue to the horizon you would find that you have marked the exact location of the sun rise on December 25th. So the three kings follow the brightest star to the east where the Sun of God is born. There's much more than this but I have gone on long enough.

    "Mithra" who was an ancient savior god of the Persians who has striking similarities to Jesus before Jesus was supposed to have been born.

    Many early Christians celebrated Jesus' birthday on JAN-6. Armenian Christians still do. In Alexandria, in what is now Egypt, the birthday of their god-man, Aion, was also celebrated on JAN-6.
    Christians and most Pagans eventually celebrated the birthday of their god-man on DEC-25.
    According to an ancient Christian tradition, Christ died on MAR-23 and resurrected on MAR-25. These dates agree precisely with the death and resurrection of Attis.
    Baptism was a principal ritual; it washed away a person's sins. In some rituals, Baptism was performed by sprinkling holy water on the believer; in others, the person was totally immersed.
    The most important sacrament was a ritual meal of bread and wine which symbolize the god-man's body and blood. His followers were accused of engaging in cannibalism.
    Early Christians initiated converts in March and April by baptism. Mithraism initiated their new members at this time as well.
    Early Christians were naked when they were baptized. After immersion, they then put on white clothing and a crown. They carried a candle and walked in a procession to a basilica. Followers of Mithra were also baptized naked, put on white clothing and a crown, and walked in a procession to the temple. However, they carried torches.
    At Pentecost, the followers of Jesus were recorded as speaking in tongues. At Trophonius and Delos, the Pagan priestesses also spoke in tongues: They appeared to speak in such a way that each person present heard her words in the observer's own language.
    An inscription to Mithras reads: "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." 1 In John 6:53-54, Jesus is said to have repeated this theme: "...Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (KJV)
    The Bible records that Jesus was crucified between two thieves. One went to heaven and the other to hell. In the Mithras mysteries, a common image showed Mithras flanked by two torchbearers, one on either side. One held a torch pointed upwards, the other downwards. This symbolized ascent to heaven or descent to hell.
    In Attis, a bull was slaughtered while on a perforated platform. The animal's blood flowed down over an initiate who stood in a pit under the platform. The believer was then considered to have been "born again." Poor people could only afford a sheep, and so were literally washed in the blood of the lamb. This practice was interpreted symbolically by Christians.
    There were many additional points of similarity between Mithraism and Christianity. 2 St. Augustine even declared that the priests of Mithraism worshiped the same God as he did: Followers of both religions celebrated a ritual meal involving bread. It was called a missa in Latin or mass in English.
    Both the Catholic church and Mithraism had a total of seven sacraments.
    Epiphany, JAN-6, was originally the festival in which the followers of Mithra celebrated the visit of the Magi to their newborn god-man. The Christian Church took it over in the 9th century.


    Jesus birth while it is impossible to nail down an exact date, Jesus was likely born in June. Why? Luke 2:8 describes Jesus's birthplace as "In that region there were shepherds living in the fields, keeping watch over the flock by night." That sure doesn't sound like December, does it? Gardner writes that shepherds slept with their sheep from June to November, and that June was known as the month men traditionally fed their flocks the remains of the wheat harvest.
    To this day there is still no real evidence for this person that supposable did such great things. How is such a great man that can rise from the dead not ever talked about? No evidence for him has ever been found.


    Stories of gods born of virgins are to be found in nearly every age and country. There have been many virgin mothers, and Mary with her child is but a recent version of a very old and universal myth. In China and India, in Babylonia and Egypt, in Greece and Rome, "divine" beings selected from among the daughters of men the purest and most beautiful to serve them as a means of entrance into the world of mortals. Wishing to take upon themselves the human form, while retaining at the same time their "divinity," this compromise -- of an earthly mother with a "divine" father -- was effected. In the form of a swan Jupiter approached Leda, as in the guise of a dove, or a Paracletug, Jehovah "overshadowed" Mary.
    A nymph bathing in a river in China is touched by a lotus plant, and the divine Fohi is born.

    In Siam, a wandering sunbeam caresses a girl in her teens, and the great and wonderful deliverer, Codom, is born. In the life of Buddha we read that he descended on his mother Maya, "in likeness as the heavenly queen, and entered her womb," and was born from her right side, to save the world." [Stories of Virgin Births. Reference: Lord Macartney. Voyage dans 'interview de la Chine et en Tartarie. Vol. I p. 48. See also Les Vierges Meres et les Naissance Miraculeuse. P. Saintyves. p. 19, etc.] In Greece, the young god Apollo visits a fair maid of Athens, and a Plato is ushered into the world.

    In ancient Mexico, as well as in Babylonia, and in modern Corea, as in modern Palestine, as in the legends of all lands, virgins gave birth and became divine mothers. But the real home of virgin births is the land of the Nile. Eighteen hundred years before Christ, we find carved on one of the walls of the great temple of Luxor a picture of the annunciation, conception and birth of King Amunothph III, an almost exact copy of the annunciation, conception and birth of the Christian God. Of course no one will think of maintaining that the Egyptians borrowed the idea from the Catholics nearly two thousand years before the Christian era. "The story in the Gospel of Luke, the first and second chapters is," says Malvert, "a reproduction, 'point by point,' of the story in stone of the miraculous birth of Amunothph."


    Sharpe in his Egyptian Mythology, page 19, gives the following description of the, Luxor picture, quoted by G.W. Foote in his 'Bible Romances,' page 126: "In this picture we have the annunciation, the conception, the birth and the adoration, as described in the first and second chapters of Luke's Gospel." Massey gives a more minute description of the Luxor picture. "The first scene on the left hand shows the god Taht, the divine Wolrd or Loges, in the act of hailing the virgin queen, announcing to her that she is to give birth to a son. In the second scene the god Kneph (assisted by Hathor) gives life to her. This is the Holy Ghost, or Spirit that causes conception. ... Next the mother is seated on the midwife's stool, and the child is supported in the hands of one of the nurses. The fourth scene is that of the adoration. Here the child is enthroned, receiving homage from the gods and gifts from men." [Natural Geneses. Massey, Vol. II, p. 398.] The picture on the wall of the Luxor temple, then, is one of the sources to which the anonymous writers of the Gospels went for their miraculous story. It is no wonder they suppressed their own identity as well as the source from which they borrowed their material.

    Not only the idea of a virgin mother, but all the other miraculous events, such as the stable cradle, the guiding star, the massacre of the children, the flight to Egypt, and the resurrection and bodily ascension toward the clouds, have not only been borrowed, but are even scarcely altered in the New Testament story of Jesus.

    That the early Christians borrowed the legend of Jesus from earthly sources is too evident to be even questioned. Gerald Massey in his great work on Egyptian origins demonstrates the identity of Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Isis, the mother of Horus. He says: "The most ancient, goldbedizened, smoke-stained Byzantine pictures of the virgin and child represent the mythical mother as Isis, and not as a human mother of Nazareth. [Vol. II, p. 487.] Science and research have made this fact so certain that, on the one hand ignorance, and on the other interest only, can continue to claim inspiration for the authors of the undated and unsigned fragmentary documents which pass for the Word of God. If, then, Jesus is stripped of all the borrowed legends and miracles of which he is the subject; and if we also take away from him all the teachings which collected from Jewish and Pagan sources have been attributed to him -- what will be left of him? That the ideas put in his mouth have been culled and compiled from other sources is as demonstrable as the Pagan origin of the legends related of him.

    Nearly every one of the dogmas and ceremonies in the Christian cult were borrowed from other and older religions. The resurrection myth, the ascension, the eucharist, baptism, worship by kneeling or prostration, the folding of the hands on the breast, the ringing of bells and the burning of incense, the vestments and vessels used in church, the candles, "holy" water, -- even the word Mass, were all adopted and adapted by the Christians from the religions of the ancients. The Trinity is as much Pagan, as much Indian or Buddhist, as it is Christian. The idea of a Son of God is as old as 'the oldest cult. The sun is the son of heaven in all primitive faiths. The physical sun becomes in the course of evolution, the Son of Righteousness, or the Son of God, and heaven is personified as the Father on High. The halo around the head of Jesus, the horns of the older deities, the rays of light radiating from the heads of Hindu and Pagan gods are incontrovertible evidence that all gods were at one time -- the sun in heaven.


    Examples of just about word for word coping going down..:

    "Mithra" who was an ancient savior god of the Persians who has striking similarities to Jesus before Jesus was supposed to have been born.

    Many early Christians celebrated Jesus' birthday on JAN-6. Armenian Christians still do. In Alexandria, in what is now Egypt, the birthday of their god-man, Aion, was also celebrated on JAN-6.
    Christians and most Pagans eventually celebrated the birthday of their god-man on DEC-25.
    According to an ancient Christian tradition, Christ died on MAR-23 and resurrected on MAR-25. These dates agree precisely with the death and resurrection of Attis.
    Baptism was a principal ritual; it washed away a person's sins. In some rituals, Baptism was performed by sprinkling holy water on the Image believer; in others, the person was totally immersed.
    The most important sacrament was a ritual meal of bread and wine which symbolize the god-man's body and blood. His followers were accused of engaging in cannibalism.
    Early Christians initiated converts in March and April by baptism. Mithraism initiated their new members at this time as well.
    Early Christians were naked when they were baptized. After immersion, they then put on white clothing and a crown. They carried a candle and walked in a procession to a basilica. Followers of Mithra were also baptized naked, put on white clothing and a crown, and walked in a procession to the temple. However, they carried torches.
    At Pentecost, the followers of Jesus were recorded as speaking in tongues. At Trophonius and Delos, the Pagan priestesses also spoke in tongues: They appeared to speak in such a way that each person present heard her words in the observer's own language.
    An inscription to Mithras reads: "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." 1 In John 6:53-54, Jesus is said to have repeated this theme: "...Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (KJV)
    The Bible records that Jesus was crucified between two thieves. One went to heaven and the other to hell. In the Mithras mysteries, a common image showed Mithras flanked by two torchbearers, one on either side. One held a torch pointed upwards, the other downwards. This symbolized ascent to heaven or descent to hell.
    In Attis, a bull was slaughtered while on a perforated platform. The animal's blood flowed down over an initiate who stood in a pit under the platform. The believer was then considered to have been "born again." Poor people could only afford a sheep, and so were literally washed in the blood of the lamb. This practice was interpreted symbolically by Christians.
    There were many additional points of similarity between Mithraism and Christianity. 2 St. Augustine even declared that the priests of Mithraism worshiped the same God as he did: Followers of both religions celebrated a ritual meal involving bread. It was called a missa in Latin or mass in English.
    Both the Catholic church and Mithraism had a total of seven sacraments.
    Epiphany, JAN-6, was originally the festival in which the followers of Mithra celebrated the visit of the Magi to their newborn god-man. The Christian Church took it over in the 9th century.

  6. #6
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    Re: A Copy Cat Relligion

    This might take me a few sessions but this is pretty much all nonsense.

    Also argument from weblinks is considered bad form on this site. Make your own case, cite your own sources (preferably closer to the subject than the one you cited.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    1. Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.
    I'm dimly aware of stories of his birth from a rock or a tree. After much searching there are 0 sources predating christianty that have him borne of a virgin. There is this on Hadrians wall though, maybe the virgin was a really big chicken:

    http://www.ambrosiasociety.org/images/p020_1_00.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    2. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
    So was Buddah, did Mithras copy him? Also he predated mankind

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    3. He had 12 companions or disciples.
    0 original sources claim this. Support or retract.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    4. Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
    No they weren't. The one and only salvation reference we have is this:

    "et nos servasti . . . sanguine fuso "
    "and you have saved us ... in the shed blood"

    Hardly a promise of immortality. If you disagree support or retract.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    5. He performed miracles.
    Isn't that kind of... you know what Gods do?

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    6. As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
    No he didn't, he really did kill a bull(1)

    (1)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fr...ra_Europos.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    7. He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
    No ancient sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    8. His resurrection was celebrated every year.
    A custom irrelevant to the biblical description of Jesus. Festivals are a hall mark of any religion. And indeed there was debate in the early christian church about whether or not christmas should be celebrated (I can corroborate if you want but I have no books to hand).

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    9. He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
    Please cite a pre-christian source.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    10. He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."
    See above

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    11. His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
    He had no sacred day known about. Nothing of the pre-christian sect is known but the name Mithra from Persia which may or may not be the same God that was later worshiped in Rome. Which incidentally given it was a mystery cult has very little known about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    12. Mithra had his principal festival of what was later to become Easter.
    Mithraic mysteries have NO festivals attached to just that cult

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    13. His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
    No it didn't. Please cite sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    14. "His annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration."
    I'm fairly sure that's all irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    15. Shmuel Golding is quoted as saying that 1 Cor. 10:4 is "identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ."
    ... we have next to no pre-christian mithraic writings (or indeed post-christian for that matter). We don't have any Mithraic scriptures whatsoever. Nor any reference to it existing. A google search reveals that Shmuel Golding only exists for this one and only claim. Other than that he's a non-entity in the academic world. A phantom. Someone made up to lend credence to made up point.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    16. The Catholic Encyclopedia is quoted as saying that Mithraic services were conduced by "fathers" and that the "chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called 'Pater Patratus.'"
    That's just plain misleading. There were 7 ranks in the Mithraic structure according to St. Jerome (note that he was very much post the start of christianty [347-420 he lives]):

    Corax (raven)
    Nymphus (bridegroom)
    Miles (soldier)
    Leo (lion)
    Perses (Persian)
    Heliodromus (sun-courier)
    Pater (father)

    Absolutley none of the other ranks match whatsoever.

    I'll do the rest when I shouldn't be sleeping...
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

  7. #7
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    Re: A Copy Cat Relligion

    Take 2:

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    For example 3,000 years before Jesus was born the Egyptians worshiped the god of the Sky and Sun. He was a symbol of light and was called Horus. The Sun itself was called Horus and was also called "God's Sun" or "The Sun of God".
    So far some misleading playing with languages. Bearing in mind these English homophones didn't exist till more than a thousand years after Jesus let alone Horus.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    We get the word Horizon from "Horus is risen" as the Sun rises in the morning.
    Insofar as I'm aware the origins of the English language do not lie in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. This is patent nonsense. As to the real etymology, probably more something like this:

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=horizon

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Horus was born to a virgin mother
    No he wasn't his father was Osiris, Osiris was murdered, then ressurected by his wife for one day in wich Horus was concieved and then descended to be God of the underworld. He most certainley had both a Godly father and mother:
    http://www.fruitofthenile.com/horus.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    on December 25 and was adorned by three kings who followed a star to the East.
    No and no. Please prove.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    He was baptized at the same age as Jesus and became a profound religious teacher.
    He was famous for the vengance he took upon Set. See the above link. He was not a teacher he was a king and ruler of Egypt.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    He had 12 disciples , one of whom betrayed him which ultimately led to his crucifixion. Horus died and rose from the grave three days later.
    No ancient sources mention him ever dying or having 12 disciples.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Horus is only one of a dozen Pagan gods who have this same story and the reason is based in astrology. On the night of December 24th the tree stars of Orion's belt, which have been called "the Three Kings" since ancient times point toward the brightest star in the East which we call "Sirius". If you were to draw a line through those four stars and continue to the horizon you would find that you have marked the exact location of the sun rise on December 25th. So the three kings follow the brightest star to the east where the Sun of God is born. There's much more than this but I have gone on long enough.
    Exact location of the sun-rise where? Funnily enough it rises at different times (and relativley speaking) different places depending where you are on the earth. All of this is pure fantasy.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Mithra" who was an ancient savior god of the Persians who has striking similarities to Jesus before Jesus was supposed to have been born.
    We know absolutley nothing but one reference to the name of the God Mithra from ancient Persia. Everything else post-dates christianty and is a Roman mystery cult.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Many early Christians celebrated Jesus' birthday on JAN-6. Armenian Christians still do. In Alexandria, in what is now Egypt, the birthday of their god-man, Aion, was also celebrated on JAN-6.
    Christians and most Pagans eventually celebrated the birthday of their god-man on DEC-25.
    Aion is another God no one really knows much about. Please cite ancient wources.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    According to an ancient Christian tradition, Christ died on MAR-23 and resurrected on MAR-25. These dates agree precisely with the death and resurrection of Attis.
    Attis? You mean this Attis:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attis

    The one that has no story of his death, let alone ressurection? Or is there another I'm less familiar with?

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Baptism was a principal ritual; it washed away a person's sins. In some rituals, Baptism was performed by sprinkling holy water on the believer; in others, the person was totally immersed.
    The most important sacrament was a ritual meal of bread and wine which symbolize the god-man's body and blood. His followers were accused of engaging in cannibalism.
    Early Christians initiated converts in March and April by baptism. Mithraism initiated their new members at this time as well.
    Everything up until the bit that introduces Mithra is irrelevant to parallels. As to that we have no idea when Mithraism intiated new people but we do know they had to undergo a series of gruelling trials rather than just a baptism. Hardly similar. Also I'm aware of no sources linking March and April to christianty in particular either.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Early Christians were naked when they were baptized. After immersion, they then put on white clothing and a crown. They carried a candle and walked in a procession to a basilica.
    You mean that persecuted tribe just strode right in to the centre of town in to public buildings announcing they'd just been inducted in to an illegal faith. Impressivley brave, more impressive they avoided arrest.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Followers of Mithra were also baptized naked, put on white clothing and a crown, and walked in a procession to the temple. However, they carried torches.
    Again, we don't really know enough about followers of Mithra to confirm this either.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    At Pentecost, the followers of Jesus were recorded as speaking in tongues. At Trophonius and Delos, the Pagan priestesses also spoke in tongues: They appeared to speak in such a way that each person present heard her words in the observer's own language.
    Source? Ancient oracles talked gibberish after getting high that was interpreted by the priest (I can't find the title of the book I'll have to look it up I've only got photo-copied pages at this point)

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    An inscription to Mithras reads: "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." 1 In John 6:53-54, Jesus is said to have repeated this theme: "...Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (KJV)
    Where is this incription?

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    The Bible records that Jesus was crucified between two thieves. One went to heaven and the other to hell. In the Mithras mysteries, a common image showed Mithras flanked by two torchbearers, one on either side. One held a torch pointed upwards, the other downwards. This symbolized ascent to heaven or descent to hell.
    If by that you mean these guys:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cautes_and_Cautopates

    Then I think you're looking for the equinoxes or sunrise and sunset. Not heaven and hell as the Mithraic cult had no such concepts.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    In Attis, a bull was slaughtered while on a perforated platform. The animal's blood flowed down over an initiate who stood in a pit under the platform. The believer was then considered to have been "born again." Poor people could only afford a sheep, and so were literally washed in the blood of the lamb. This practice was interpreted symbolically by Christians.
    What the heck is Attis? It just plain doesn't exist. No such practice is ever recorded as having happened. It's just pure nonsense that's made up. Even if it wasn't, no link could be made to christianty through it.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    There were many additional points of similarity
    between Mithraism and Christianity.
    Yeah sure, when you make up both their rituals and beliefs as you go along...

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    2 St. Augustine even declared that the priests of Mithraism worshiped the same God as he did:
    When and where?

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Followers of both religions celebrated a ritual meal involving bread. It was called a missa in Latin or mass in English.
    The Mithraic mysteries had no such process as far as we're aware. Their worshipping practices were quite delibratley kept secret to all but members of the cult. And quite successfully too.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Both the Catholic church and Mithraism had a total of seven sacraments.
    See above

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Epiphany, JAN-6, was originally the festival in which the followers of Mithra celebrated the visit of the Magi to their newborn god-man. The Christian Church took it over in the 9th century.
    Mithras was borne an adult (see previous post), he was not visited by any magi in any artistic depiction we have (unless you count the torch-bearers who were there regardless of his birth). The date is another thing pulled from thin air about Mithras.

    ---------- Post added at 02:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Jesus birth while it is impossible to nail down an exact date, Jesus was likely born in June. Why? Luke 2:8 describes Jesus's birthplace as "In that region there were shepherds living in the fields, keeping watch over the flock by night." That sure doesn't sound like December, does it?
    Gardner writes that shepherds slept with their sheep from June to November, and that June was known as the month men traditionally fed their flocks the remains of the wheat harvest.
    And most christians realise that Jesus probably wasn't borne on December 25th. The date is not mentioned in the bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    To this day there is still no real evidence for this person that supposable did such great things. How is such a great man that can rise from the dead not ever talked about? No evidence for him has ever been found.
    See the thread linked in my sig, I'll reply as soon as I finish messing around with a few other things and have the time to research properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Stories of gods born of virgins are to be found in nearly every age and country. There have been many virgin mothers, and Mary with her child is but a recent version of a very old and universal myth. In China and India, in Babylonia and Egypt, in Greece and Rome, "divine" beings selected from among the daughters of men the purest and most beautiful to serve them as a means of entrance into the world of mortals. Wishing to take upon themselves the human form, while retaining at the same time their "divinity," this compromise -- of an earthly mother with a "divine" father -- was effected. In the form of a swan Jupiter approached Leda, as in the guise of a dove, or a Paracletug, Jehovah "overshadowed" Mary

    There's a difference between Zeus turning in to a swan/bull/golden shower etc. and getting it on with a woman and the manner in which the immaculate conception is described in the bible:

    Matthew 1:
    18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about [a]: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

    She was simply found to be pregnant, not impregnated.

    Luke 1:
    26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
    29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

    34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

    35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called [a] the Son of God.


    Overshadowed by Gods power does not equate to Zeus getting frisky. She is still considered a virgin, while those that had children by deities in other myths were considered to have ACTUALLY had sex to all extents and purposes with those deities. The link CANNOT be drawn correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    In Siam, a wandering sunbeam caresses a girl in her teens, and the great and wonderful deliverer, Codom, is born. In the life of Buddha we read that he descended on his mother Maya, "in likeness as the heavenly queen, and entered her womb," and was born from her right side, to save the world." [Stories of Virgin Births. Reference: Lord Macartney. Voyage dans 'interview de la Chine et en Tartarie. Vol. I p. 48. See also Les Vierges Meres et les Naissance Miraculeuse. P. Saintyves. p. 19, etc.] In Greece, the young god Apollo visits a fair maid of Athens, and a Plato is ushered into the world.
    Once again note the difference between a virgin birth and a Godly fathering.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    In ancient Mexico, as well as in Babylonia, and in modern Corea, as in modern Palestine, as in the legends of all lands, virgins gave birth and became divine mothers. But the real home of virgin births is the land of the Nile. Eighteen hundred years before Christ, we find carved on one of the walls of the great temple of Luxor a picture of the annunciation, conception and birth of King Amunothph III, an almost exact copy of the annunciation, conception and birth of the Christian God. Of course no one will think of maintaining that the Egyptians borrowed the idea from the Catholics nearly two thousand years before the Christian era. "The story in the Gospel of Luke, the first and second chapters is," says Malvert, "a reproduction, 'point by point,' of the story in stone of the miraculous birth of Amunothph."
    So on a wall, we have the points that:
    A No God is having sex with his mother but she's getting pregnant
    B An angel announced it to her (given the Egyptians had no concept of angels)
    C He was borne in Bethlehem
    D He was surrounded by shepards
    E He was surrounded by magi

    Forgive me if I'm skeptical until I've seen these wall pictures myself given the veracity of most of the other claims you've quoted so far.
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

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    Re: A Copy Cat Relligion

    Take 3:

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Sharpe in his Egyptian Mythology, page 19, gives the following description of the, Luxor picture, quoted by G.W. Foote in his 'Bible Romances,' page 126: "In this picture we have the annunciation, the conception, the birth and the adoration, as described in the first and second chapters of Luke's Gospel." Massey gives a more minute description of the Luxor picture. "The first scene on the left hand shows the god Taht, the divine Wolrd or Loges, in the act of hailing the virgin queen, announcing to her that she is to give birth to a son. In the second scene the god Kneph (assisted by Hathor) gives life to her.
    http://www.touregypt.net/emac/01800.jpg This is the image concerned.
    However you site a vastly out of date book. Sharpe's book was published in 1863. Hardly an up to date work. As for the picture, well impregnation by a deity and an assistant is still a long-shot from the bilblical nativity. I mean if that is a birht scene, then it was hailed as the birth of a king by all people by looks of things. If that is the case it is in stark contrast to Jesus. I mean the thing you quoted itself cites her as being surrounded by mid-wives. A luxury that Mary did not have.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    This is the Holy Ghost, or Spirit that causes conception. ...
    You're equivocating that is not the holy ghost that is a concept unique to christianty.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Next the mother is seated on the midwife's stool, and the child is supported in the hands of one of the nurses. The fourth scene is that of the adoration. Here the child is enthroned, receiving homage from the gods and gifts from men." [Natural Geneses. Massey, Vol. II, p. 398.] The picture on the wall of the Luxor temple, then, is one of the sources to which the anonymous writers of the Gospels went for their miraculous story. It is no wonder they suppressed their own identity as well as the source from which they borrowed their material.
    So you think the writers of the gospels were widely travelled and had visited what would be highly guarded temples and studied intricantly foreign mythologies. Seems a lot more effor than just plain making it up. Furthermore even if you proved a scene identical else-where in the world you still need evidence for the claim that the concept was stolen.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Not only the idea of a virgin mother, but all the other miraculous events, such as the stable cradle
    Jesus was not borne in a stable in any biblical account.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    the guiding star
    People can still use starts to this day to guide them around. It is nothing unique to the miraculous. Furhtermore this little list of claims appears to have no supporting citations whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    the massacre of the children, the flight to Egypt
    If you want the first sources of them they'd probably be the Torah... And unfortunatley I'm not prepared to deny christianties basis in Juadaism. That said what you're implying that stories are simply lifted is not supported whatsoever. Please do so before continuing this line of argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    and the resurrection and bodily ascension toward the clouds, have not only been borrowed, but are even scarcely altered in the New Testament story of Jesus.
    Pure fiction, the resurrection and bodily ascension is nigh on unique to christianty unless you mix and mash and act INCREDIBLY vaugley on other stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    That the early Christians borrowed the legend of Jesus from earthly sources is too evident to be even questioned.
    I beg to differ

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Gerald Massey in his great work on Egyptian origins demonstrates the identity of Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Isis, the mother of Horus.
    Mary is infact a deity in her own right. And married a deity? And actually had sex to produce a child? That's a new one by me.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    He says: "The most ancient, goldbedizened, smoke-stained Byzantine pictures of the virgin and child represent the mythical mother as Isis, and not as a human mother of Nazareth. [Vol. II, p. 487.]
    See my above proving false of the comparisons attempted to be drawn

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Science and research have made this fact so certain that, on the one hand ignorance, and on the other interest only, can continue to claim inspiration for the authors of the undated and unsigned fragmentary documents which pass for the Word of God.
    We have both good dating and guesses at authorship for most biblical texts. Even if we don't authorship is a moot point due to the proximity of the dating to events. For a full run-down of dating of various texts (a fairly middle-of-the-road from an academic perspective) see this site:
    http://earlychristianwritings.com/

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    If, then, Jesus is stripped of all the borrowed legends and miracles of which he is the subject; and if we also take away from him all the teachings which collected from Jewish and Pagan sources have been attributed to him -- what will be left of him? That the ideas put in his mouth have been culled and compiled from other sources is as demonstrable as the Pagan origin of the legends related of him.
    Fortunate the pagan origins are non-existant fantasies then.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    Nearly every one of the dogmas and ceremonies in the Christian cult were borrowed from other and older religions. The resurrection myth, the ascension, the eucharist, baptism, worship by kneeling or prostration, the folding of the hands on the breast, the ringing of bells and the burning of incense, the vestments and vessels used in church, the candles, "holy" water, -- even the word Mass, were all adopted and adapted by the Christians from the religions of the ancients.
    Dealt with nearly all of this already. The rest are unsupported assertions at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    The Trinity is as much Pagan, as much Indian or Buddhist, as it is Christian.
    Flagrantly wrong. The concept of a trinity is three entities collectivley being ONE God. Paganism has numerous rules of three in terms of deity interactions but no such concept of unification. The trinity is wholly unique and contreversial within christianty in of itself

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    The idea of a Son of God is as old as 'the oldest cult.
    Sure, but it's certainley a unique Son of God in Christianty. Jesus is a messiah not a hero like it had been in past times. He was sent with a quite delibrate mission, not an incidental son that the father God favours such as say Hercules was. God's having children wasn't unique but Jesus certainley was.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    The sun is the son of heaven in all primitive faiths. The physical sun becomes in the course of evolution, the Son of Righteousness, or the Son of God, and heaven is personified as the Father on High.
    Rhetorical plays on homophones, nothing more substantial behind this comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaunko View Post
    The halo around the head of Jesus, the horns of the older deities, the rays of light radiating from the heads of Hindu and Pagan gods are incontrovertible evidence that all gods were at one time -- the sun in heaven.
    Well, no. Incontrivertibale proof that when artists convert they don't decide they need to invent an entire new style to depict their deity. Why would christianty usher in a whole new era to art simply by it's existance. To suggest it should have done other-wise it's a mimic religion is as prepostorous as to suggest that the Greek pantheon was stolen from China due to the Orientalizing era in Greek art.

    Should be able to finish the last part tonight
    Last edited by eliotitus; October 13th, 2009 at 09:18 AM. Reason: Correcting quote tags
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

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    Re: A Copy Cat Relligion

    Once more unto the breach dear friends once more:

    It has just occurred to me that the last section is the same as one I've already addressed it in post 7. Well glad to see that's over and done with. Now kids don't use pagan parallels arguments. It was a line of scholarship that has been dragged through the mud for the last century with more and more discrediting it as the original claims are discovered to be pure fabrications with no support that has managed to resurface on the internet with "ZOMG CHRISTIANS ARE STOOPID LOOK AT THIS" branch of atheism.
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

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    Re: A Copy Cat Relligion

    This argument does seem to come up quite often in debates. One of the interesting things about the Jesus story is that there are various prophecies predating His birth on Earth and these prophecies or at least the promise of His coming has been revealed from the beginning, and story tellers would have easily been able to use this information to put more realism to their spin. I believe people told tales quite frequently in those days and shared stories since books were around.

 

 

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