Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 106
  1. #21
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsdarts View Post
    First of all, I do allow the possibility that a god (not yours) could exist, but I have no reason to assume one does. How much I know about all there is to know is irrelevant. What I do know is there is no evidence "that convinces me" your god or any other god exists.
    What evidence would it take to convince you that some form of Divinity exists? If you were presented with said evidence, would you accept the other truths that logically followed from the assumption that Divinity exists?

  2. #22
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,583
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsdarts View Post
    Really? You went with Indiana Jones? A movie parable?
    What part of "the best illustration I can offer" wasn't clear?

    First of all, I do allow the possibility that a god (not yours) could exist, but I have no reason to assume one does. How much I know about all there is to know is irrelevant. What I do know is there is no evidence "that convinces me" your god or any other god exists.

    Second, What part of "lying to myself" wasn't clear? I want you to answer with a yes or no answer, no other reply will be acceptable. Challenge to support a claim.Can you deny your god exists and know you are telling yourself the truth? Yes or No.
    Is it lying to oneself to act on an assumption?

    Are you proposing that acting on an assumption is dishonest? If so, then science is about as dishonest as it comes - acting/building on assumptions is the bedrock of scientific progress.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  3. #23
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    104
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    HI, I'm quoting myself from another post because I think it's fairly relevant to the challenges set in disinteresteds post above...


    In science, one process for experimentation to further knowledge (though not exclusively), is to posit a hypothesis then try to disprove it, if it cannot disproved it is accepted until it can be disproved, or ammended to be a better explanation. When theists claim the existence of God, any questioning of the aspects of God (e.g. omnipotence, omniscience etc...), and the pointing out of apparent self-contradictions with these aspects (examples available on request), are made unfalsifiable. I refer to a paper by Anthony Flew entitled Theology an falsification; Once upon a time two explorers came upon a clearing in the jungle. In the clearing were growing many flowers and many weeds. One explorer says, "Some gardener must tend this plot." The other disagrees, "There is no gardener." So they pitch their tents and set a watch. No gardener is ever seen. "But perhaps he is an invisible gardener." So they set up a barbed-wire fence. They electrify it. They patrol with bloodhounds. (For they remember how H. G. Well's The Invisible Man could be both smelt and touched though he could not be seen.) But no shrieks ever suggest that some intruder has received a shock. No movements of the wire ever betray an invisible climber. The bloodhounds never give cry. Yet still the Believer is not convinced. "But there is a gardener, invisible, intangible, insensible, to electric shocks, a gardener who has no scent and makes no sound, a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden which he loves." At last the Sceptic despairs, "But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?"

    My point is this - I'd rather believe in a system of science that makes mistakes and learns from these mistakes and gets closer to explaining the nature of our reality instead of a faith system based on logically unfounded claims from thousands of years ago that cling desperately to the gaps that science hasn't got to yet in order to justify its preservation.
    Last edited by Rakkyosai; October 18th, 2009 at 08:36 AM.

  4. #24
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dallas, The Buckle of the Bible Belt, Texas
    Posts
    1,160
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    What evidence would it take to convince you that some form of Divinity exists? If you were presented with said evidence, would you accept the other truths that logically followed from the assumption that Divinity exists?
    I can't be specific but I think something along the lines of All of a sudden, everyone on the planet believed in the same god, where there wasn't any doubt that there was only one god and its attributes and description was the same for everyone. We could all look up in the sky and no matter where you go, someone could point god out to you. That's not asking too much is it? Seems like its something your god could pull off, instead of relying on fallible humans to try and spread his word without logical evidence.

    Even the burning bush trick couldn't convince me that I wasn't having some sort of hallucination due to lack of food or oxygen from being high on top a mountain. There's another thing most don't seem to realize is that drugs were quite available back in the days the bible was being written. Why don't most people assume the bible writers were high or mentally ill, or both? Is that not a more plausible explanation? Just read Revelations to catch my drift.

    ---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    What part of "the best illustration I can offer" wasn't clear?

    Is it lying to oneself to act on an assumption?

    Are you proposing that acting on an assumption is dishonest? If so, then science is about as dishonest as it comes - acting/building on assumptions is the bedrock of scientific progress.
    Can't answer the question?

    Why would you assume a god exists? Science acts on assumptions based on hard evidence, not the same for belief in gods. Science has no problem changing its assumptions based on new evidence. What has changed in the bible? Oh yeah, your god went from a ruthless prick to a Milquetoast pacifist.

    Please announce that you do not believe in god and start supporting atheist arguments. If you can't or won't, I'll assume you have no free will to do so, as I have no free will to believe he does exist without better evidence and mean it. When will Christians get it, that the bible is NOT evidence for the tri-omni god???


    Opposing theory to the creation of the "known universe". Read it carefully, it's not a difficult read on physics and quantum mechanics.

  5. #25
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,583
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsdarts View Post
    I can't be specific but I think something along the lines of All of a sudden, everyone on the planet believed in the same god, where there wasn't any doubt that there was only one god and its attributes and description was the same for everyone. We could all look up in the sky and no matter where you go, someone could point god out to you. That's not asking too much is it? Seems like its something your god could pull off, instead of relying on fallible humans to try and spread his word without logical evidence.

    Even the burning bush trick couldn't convince me that I wasn't having some sort of hallucination due to lack of food or oxygen from being high on top a mountain. There's another thing most don't seem to realize is that drugs were quite available back in the days the bible was being written. Why don't most people assume the bible writers were high or mentally ill, or both? Is that not a more plausible explanation? Just read Revelations to catch my drift.

    ---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 PM ----------


    Can't answer the question?
    The question is flawed. You present a false dichotomy. There are other choices such as, assume that God exists, act as though this were so, and see where it takes you.

    As in: "taste and see that the Lord is good."

    Why would you assume a god exists? Science acts on assumptions based on hard evidence, not the same for belief in gods. Science has no problem changing its assumptions based on new evidence. What has changed in the bible? Oh yeah, your god went from a ruthless prick to a Milquetoast pacifist.
    If you were a true scientist you would at least make an effort to test an assumption (assumed on your part, that is, but known by others) that millions upon millions testify to as real - that is, offer evidence of.

    Please announce that you do not believe in god and start supporting atheist arguments. If you can't or won't, I'll assume you have no free will to do so, as I have no free will to believe he does exist without better evidence and mean it. When will Christians get it, that the bible is NOT evidence for the tri-omni god???
    Red herring by way of a false dichotomy.

    ---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 PM ----------

    Rakkyosai agrees: If christians rely on Christs righteousness for salvation and not on their own actions, then they can commit sin with no personal moral repercussions... not good.
    I think you probably meant to give me a neg rep, here.

    However, I am glad of your rep response inasmuch as it perfectly illustrates that men inherently dislike the freedom to choose goodness and would prefer to be bound by rules. They constantly bleat about freedom but when presented with it - what do they do? They reject it. Why - because they are fearful of their own incapability of goodness. Yet, when told that Christ-in-you IS your goodness,IS you righteousness, and you are therefore totally free to act, they get cold feet. Unbelievable!

    Help yourself, I say.

    For me, the constraints of love are an easy yoke in comparison with the restraints inherent in moral judgement. I will continue to act totally freely in love, by faith in One who loves me, and you help yourself and continue to be bound by rules.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  6. #26
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,716
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    If you were a true scientist you would at least make an effort to test an assumption (assumed on your part, that is, but known by others) that millions upon millions testify to as real - that is, offer evidence of.
    What's the evidence to be tested? Let's do it.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  7. #27
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dallas, The Buckle of the Bible Belt, Texas
    Posts
    1,160
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    The question is flawed. You present a false dichotomy. There are other choices such as, assume that God exists, act as though this were so, and see where it takes you.

    As in: "taste and see that the Lord is good."
    So assume god doesn't exist and act accordingly while remaining honest with yourself. You have to remain honest, that's the key. By they way, either he does or he doesn't exist, and you either assume he exists or don't assume he exists, now make a choice. If you make one choice, can you honestly make the opposite and remain honest with yourself? Adding a word doesn't change the supposition that you can or can't make a choice. Answer the question or leave the debate. You've been challenged, now please answer the challenge. Its OK if you can't assume god doesn't exist, I understand, as I can't assume he does and still remain honest with myself. Do you assume Ganesh exists? Can you assume Ganesh exists and remain honest with youself?

    If you were a true scientist you would at least make an effort to test an assumption (assumed on your part, that is, but known by others) that millions upon millions testify to as real - that is, offer evidence of.
    Using this flawed logic, you should not believe in your god since the majority of the world doesn't. Sorry, arguments from popularity is not evidence and is fallacious.


    Opposing theory to the creation of the "known universe". Read it carefully, it's not a difficult read on physics and quantum mechanics.

  8. #28
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    104
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    However, I am glad of your rep response inasmuch as it perfectly illustrates that men inherently dislike the freedom to choose goodness and would prefer to be bound by rules. They constantly bleat about freedom but when presented with it - what do they do? They reject it. Why - because they are fearful of their own incapability of goodness. Yet, when told that Christ-in-you IS your goodness,IS you righteousness, and you are therefore totally free to act, they get cold feet. Unbelievable!

    Help yourself, I say.

    For me, the constraints of love are an easy yoke in comparison with the restraints inherent in moral judgement. I will continue to act totally freely in love, by faith in One who loves me, and you help yourself and continue to be bound by rules.
    Answer this please: What is free will? and does God have it?
    I'd be interested to know your answers to these two questions.

  9. #29
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakkyosai View Post
    Answer this please: What is free will? and does God have it?
    I'd be interested to know your answers to these two questions.
    I don't mean to be a party pooper, but are these questions directly related to the debate at hand about whether the ten commandments are still relevant and applicable?

  10. #30
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,583
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    What's the evidence to be tested? Let's do it.
    The evidence begins with the testimony of Jesus' disciples who witnessed His resurrection.

    It is continued thoughout the succeding 2000 years by those who have accepted that witness and who know Christ through His Spirit in them - a promise of Jesus that when He ascended into heaven He would not leave them alone, He would send the Comforter - the Holy Spirit. Many attest to the reality of the Holy Spirit.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  11. #31
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,716
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    The evidence begins with the testimony of Jesus' disciples who witnessed His resurrection.

    It is continued thoughout the succeding 2000 years by those who have accepted that witness and who know Christ through His Spirit in them - a promise of Jesus that when He ascended into heaven He would not leave them alone, He would send the Comforter - the Holy Spirit. Many attest to the reality of the Holy Spirit.
    Nah...Problems. I've addressed this in another thread. There's way too much controversy about the authorship and time of writing of the new testament to claim that any of the current canon was written by eyewitnesses at all.

    There are also serious problems with the alleged resurrection itself (namely the gospels contradict themselves as well as common sense). I've pointed to them in another thread and they haven't been addressed since.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  12. #32
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,583
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    Nah...Problems. I've addressed this in another thread. There's way too much controversy about the authorship and time of writing of the new testament to claim that any of the current canon was written by eyewitnesses at all.

    There are also serious problems with the alleged resurrection itself (namely the gospels contradict themselves as well as common sense). I've pointed to them in another thread and they haven't been addressed since.
    As a lawyer, I am sure you will always question witness testimony. Nevertheless, however much you question, it cannot make it true or untrue. It will always be what it is. Either a true witness or a false witness. Only your belief (and the belief of others) concerning the witness can change. Not the truth of it.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  13. #33
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,716
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    As a lawyer, I am sure you will always question witness testimony. Nevertheless, however much you question, it cannot make it true or untrue. It will always be what it is. Either a true witness or a false witness. Only your belief (and the belief of others) concerning the witness can change. Not the truth of it.
    As a lawyer, I have a witness in the box and I can cross examine him. I KNOW who's making the claims.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  14. #34
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,583
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    As a lawyer, I have a witness in the box and I can cross examine him. I KNOW who's making the claims.
    Do you or do you not rely on precedent?

    Of what is precedent composed?

    Is it not testimony and witness and judgement that has been applied and which is still applied even long after those who are party to the particular precedent are dead and buried? Are you claiming to KNOW all those who contributed to any particular precedent in law?
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  15. #35
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,716
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    Do you or do you not rely on precedent?

    Of what is precedent composed?

    Is it not testimony and witness and judgement that has been applied and which is still applied even long after those who are party to the particular precedent are dead and buried? Are you claiming to KNOW all those who contributed to any particular precedent in law?
    The doctrine of stare decisis says that decisions on similar facts are to be followed in future cases (with a hierarchy). It's a doctrine of LAW and not of FACTS.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  16. #36
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,583
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    The doctrine of stare decisis says that decisions on similar facts are to be followed in future cases (with a hierarchy). It's a doctrine of LAW and not of FACTS.
    Nevertheless, witness statements are allowed presumably because they have been upheld in law. And if law ceases to represent reality (what is true) it will very quickly cease to exist in that form.

    Or are you proposing that law does not equate to facts?

    Interesting proposition.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  17. #37
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,716
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    Nevertheless, witness statements are allowed presumably because they have been upheld in law. And if law ceases to represent reality (what is true) it will very quickly cease to exist in that form.

    Or are you proposing that law does not equate to facts?

    Interesting proposition.
    No. Witness statements are not admissible in evidence. Except in certain situations where the law specifically allows that. For example, in the UK (but not in Australia), summary trials are conducted on papers UNLESS either party gives notice that they want to have witnesses in court. If they do give that notice, statements do not suffice. You need viva voce evidence. Testimony in court.

    Law does not equate to facts. There is a distinct difference between the two.

    Law is a set of rules. Facts are what happens in life. Once you establish what the facts are (based on EVIDENCE), you then apply the law to the facts and determine a legal conclusion. A lawyer's legal conclusion is called opinion. A judge's or jury's conclusion is called a verdict. Factual conclusions are called findings of fact.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  18. #38
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,583
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    No. Witness statements are not admissible in evidence. Except in certain situations where the law specifically allows that. For example, in the UK (but not in Australia), summary trials are conducted on papers UNLESS either party gives notice that they want to have witnesses in court. If they do give that notice, statements do not suffice. You need viva voce evidence. Testimony in court.

    Law does not equate to facts. There is a disctinct difference between the two.

    Law is a set of rules. Facts are what happens in life. Once you establish what the facts are (based on EVIDENCE), you then apply the law to the facts and determine a legal conclusion. A lawyer's legal conclusion is called opinion. A judge's or jury's conclusion is called a verdict. Factual conclusions are called findings of fact.
    Good. Excellent, in fact!

    Therefore you have demonstrated that the law is only a judge of behaviour and a very crude judge at that.

    The law does not make people good.

    Goodness cannot be legislated - that is, brought into existence via legislation. All that law can do is SHOW good (or evil). It cannot initiate it.

    Thus, keeping of the commandments does not equate to goodness. The law cannot make people good. It is a judge, not an end. All it can do is SHOW. It cannot pre-empt or initiate or calcify a condition of goodness.

    Thus, keeping the law can only ever be compliance. It cannot imbue an intrinsic preference for that which the law exemplifies.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  19. #39
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,716
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    Good. Excellent, in fact!

    Therefore you have demonstrated that the law is only a judge of behaviour and a very crude judge at that.

    The law does not make people good.

    Goodness cannot be legislated - that is, brought into existence via legislation. All that law can do is SHOW good (or evil). It cannot initiate it.

    Thus, keeping of the commandments does not equate to goodness. The law cannot make people good. It is a judge, not an end. All it can do is SHOW. It cannot pre-empt or initiate or calcify a condition of goodness.

    Thus, keeping the law can only ever be compliance. It cannot imbue an intrinsic preference for that which the law exemplifies.
    Right.

    But that's irrelevant.

    You have made a claim that the biblical account of the resurrection is evidence. I contested that claim on the basis that we don't know where the accounts came from and that the authorship and age are hotly debated by scholars. And that's the first step. Once (if ever) it is established that even some of it was written by eyewitnesses, that doesn't necessarily give it credibility in any event. There are thousands of various religious texts that claim to be written by witnesses of supernatural events. If any such claim were to be given credit, we'd all be polytheists by now.

    What's more, I find it a little rich of you to make the claim yet again. You see, on the 1st of October (that's 19 days ago), I had challenged this very same claim of yours (the veracity of the New Testament and in particular the resurrection story). You never replied. You abandoned the thread. How can you now just make that same claim here?

    For your information, the post I'm referring to is HERE.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  20. #40
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,583
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    Right.

    But that's irrelevant.

    You have made a claim that the biblical account of the resurrection is evidence.

    Wrong - so stop right there.

    I claim that the Biblical account of the resurrection is also evidenced by my own experience which is that Jesus said He would send a Comforter - the Holy Spirit - so we would not be left alone. And I have experienced that.

    My evidence is Biblical revelation IN PRACTICE.

    If someone were, for instance, to tell you that physical exercise will lead to a greater appreciation of yourself within space/time, and on that basis you run a marathon and discover that in so doing you better appreciate your occupation of space/time, then wouldn't you accept that your experience is evidence of the claim of the one who told you that exercise will lead to a better appreciation of yourself?
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

 

 
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The 20 Commandments?!?!?!
    By Rogue Cardinal in forum Religion
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: March 10th, 2009, 03:42 PM
  2. Iraqi Christians in serious danger...
    By KingOfTheEast in forum International Affairs
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: November 29th, 2008, 10:09 PM
  3. Sharia law in Afghanistan
    By Meng Bomin in forum International Affairs
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: April 3rd, 2006, 11:34 PM
  4. Weak Christians
    By starcreator in forum Religion
    Replies: 86
    Last Post: November 23rd, 2005, 03:50 PM
  5. Conservatives and religion
    By Fyshhed in forum Politics
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: August 30th, 2004, 01:04 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •