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  1. #61
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    I don't see the problem with recognitions of imperfection. You believe in a god that did create everything perfect. Mine would too. She just wouldn't take that inexplicable step of forbidding people from eating a fruit, then allowing everything to go down the drain when they did eat the fruit, holding entire generations responsible for it, demanding faith even from those who aren't capable of it, commanding people to stone other people to death, that sort of thing. Any of it. Unnecessary. My god wouldn't bother with all this petty nonsense. She would create perfect people and let them do whatever they like and be happy. No snakes tempting anyone. No need for that.
    How do your perfectly created people remain perfect unless pre-programmed so to do? And is not mandated perfection a lesser state of existence than chosen perfection? Which would mean that mandated perfection is actually less than perfect.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  2. #62
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    How do your perfectly created people remain perfect unless pre-programmed so to do? And is not mandated perfection a lesser state of existence than chosen perfection? Which would mean that mandated perfection is actually less than perfect.
    Truly perfect things (unlike your false idea of Adam being perfect; he wasn't; he was rather silly; NOT evil; just silly!) remain perfect because they're perfect in their nature.

    If you say that perfection requires the ability to be imperfect then can people do imperfect things in heaven? If so then heaven isn't really perfect. It's the same as earth. If not, then they're not perfect. They're limited, like robots (according to your own argument).

    And of course you believe in a god who is perfect. Is God capable of doing evil things? Or is He a robot?
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  3. #63
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    Truly perfect things (unlike your false idea of Adam being perfect; he wasn't; he was rather silly; NOT evil; just silly!) remain perfect because they're perfect in their nature.

    If you say that perfection requires the ability to be imperfect then can people do imperfect things in heaven? If so then heaven isn't really perfect. It's the same as earth. If not, then they're not perfect. They're limited, like robots (according to your own argument).
    Perfection requires that one freely chooses the best. Not that one is mandated to accept the best.

    And of course you believe in a god who is perfect. Is God capable of doing evil things? Or is He a robot?
    God is the Creator of all things and all things are stamped with His image - which IS, by definition, the best, that is, GOOD. If it were not, a greater and better Creator would be evident in which case the initial Creator could not be the Creator of ALL things because a greater and better Creator would have emerged and created greater and better.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  4. #64
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    Perfection requires that one freely chooses the best. Not that one is mandated to accept the best.
    You didn't answer my question, Dis.
    Can people in heaven do evil things?

    God is the Creator of all things and all things are stamped with His image - which IS, by definition, the best, that is, GOOD. If it were not, a greater and better Creator would be evident in which case the initial Creator could not be the Creator of ALL things because a greater and better Creator would have emerged and created greater and better.
    Again, you didn't answer my question.
    Is God capable of choosing to do an evil thing and then doing it?
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  5. #65
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    You didn't answer my question, Dis.
    Can people in heaven do evil things?
    No, because they have the nature of Cjrist who IS GOd.



    Again, you didn't answer my question.
    Is God capable of choosing to do an evil thing and then doing it?
    God cannot deny HImself therefore He cannot do evil since He is, by nature, good.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  6. #66
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    No, because they have the nature of Cjrist who IS GOd.
    So by that stage they've been reduced to mere robots without free will?



    God cannot deny HImself therefore He cannot do evil since He is, by nature, good.
    Does He complain of lack of free will?
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  7. #67
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    You didn't answer my question, Dis.
    Can people in heaven do evil things?
    No, because they have the nature of Christ who IS GOd.



    Again, you didn't answer my question.
    Is God capable of choosing to do an evil thing and then doing it?
    God cannot deny Himself (that is, He cannot deny His existence and since His existence IS His character (God is Spirit) which IS good and IS love, then He cannot do evil since He would deny His own existence - a logical impossibility.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  8. #68
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    No, because they have the nature of Christ who IS GOd.
    I don't know why you've posted twice; I suspect technical problems.
    But just to make sure you don't overlook my previous post:

    Are they robots without freedom of choice? (Those folks in heaven)

    God cannot deny Himself (that is, He cannot deny His existence and since His existence IS His character (God is Spirit) which IS good and IS love, then He cannot do evil since He would deny His own existence - a logical impossibility.
    And He's ok with that, right? No problems for Him.
    Well, my god would create people who would also by their character be good. Them doing evil things would be a logical impossibility. Now THAT would be a god who created people both perfect AND in his TRUE IMAGE.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  9. #69
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    I don't know why you've posted twice; I suspect technical problems.
    More like - I'm an technical idiot - problems! Sorry.

    But just to make sure you don't overlook my previous post:

    Are they robots without freedom of choice? (Those folks in heaven)
    No, they have made a choice and are enabled to KEEP that choice - which is their only desire.



    And He's ok with that, right? No problems for Him.
    Well, my god would create people who would also by their character be good. Them doing evil things would be a logical impossibility. Now THAT would be a god who created people both perfect AND in his TRUE IMAGE.
    So you ARE saying that mandated perfection is a higher end than chosen perfection.

    I disagree.

    If you apply that logic to life, then the criminal who is forced to desist from his life of crime through mandated imprisonment, is equal to the one that chooses to desist from a life of crime.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  10. #70
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    More like - I'm an technical idiot - problems! Sorry.

    No, they have made a choice and are enabled to KEEP that choice - which is their only desire.
    My question isn't whether they had free will PRIOR TO going to heaven. My question is whether they have it now, when they are already in heaven.


    So you ARE saying that mandated perfection is a higher end than chosen perfection.

    I disagree.

    If you apply that logic to life, then the criminal who is forced to desist from his life of crime through mandated imprisonment, is equal to the one that chooses to desist from a life of crime.
    Well hang on. God can't choose to do anything evil because it's against His nature. Is that a bad thing for God? I doubt that. I don't think He minds. Why then would it be a bad thing for us?
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  11. #71
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    My question isn't whether they had free will PRIOR TO going to heaven. My question is whether they have it now, when they are already in heaven.
    Sure they do - but since those who are IN heaven are PARTAKERS OF God, they will, by definition, agree with God since they share His Spirit. And since God IS good what reason is there to seek anti-God and anti-good?




    Well hang on. God can't choose to do anything evil because it's against His nature. Is that a bad thing for God? I doubt that. I don't think He minds. Why then would it be a bad thing for us?
    Whu is the arbiter of what contitutes "bad"? "

    "Bad" is a moral judgement.

    We are speaking here of cause and effect. God IS and THEREFORE...

    Same applies to those who derive their life from God's Spirit in them.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  12. #72
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    Sure they do - but since those who are IN heaven are PARTAKERS OF God, they will, by definition, agree with God since they share His Spirit. And since God IS good what reason is there to seek anti-God and anti-good?
    I'm not asking you whether people in heaven have a reason to do evil things (people often do things for no reason or for the wrong reasons). I'm asking you if they are capable of doing something evil.

    You said that they're not.

    I then asked you if that means that they are robots who lack free will. That's an unanswered question.


    Same applies to those who derive their life from God's Spirit in them.
    Yes. And my god would create humans who derive their life from God's Spirit in them.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  13. #73
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    I'm not asking you whether people in heaven have a reason to do evil things (people often do things for no reason or for the wrong reasons). I'm asking you if they are capable of doing something evil.

    You said that they're not.
    They are no more capable than is God Himself of denying Himself.

    I then asked you if that means that they are robots who lack free will. That's an unanswered question.
    See above.




    Yes. And my god would create humans who derive their life from God's Spirit in them.
    As did God - He created man to derive his life from His Spirit in them. He also gave him (Adam - representative of all humanity) freedom to choose for or against Him. In choosing against God, he chose against life. Which is why death is the necessary consequence of sin which is, itself, anti-Godness.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  14. #74
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    They are no more capable than is God Himself of denying Himself.

    See above.
    Do they have less free will than they did before they went to heaven?

    As did God - He created man to derive his life from His Spirit in them. He also gave him (Adam - representative of all humanity) freedom to choose for or against Him. In choosing against God, he chose against life. Which is why death is the necessary consequence of sin which is, itself, anti-Godness.
    No no. I'm not buying any of that "necessary consequence" nonsense. No offence, but it's simply illogical to say that anything is a "necessary consequence" when you have an omnipotent and omniscient entity running the show. MY god wouldn't create such necessities. My god would be completely understanding just about how fallable a human he created. Except my god wouldn't create a human that would be so intellectually limited to pick that fruit and lose life for himself and the entire humanity. But then again, my god wouldn't even create the damn fruit! My god would just let Adam do as Adam pleased. No worries, no crosses. And lots of free will.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  15. #75
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    Do they have less free will than they did before they went to heaven?
    Their free will finds its ultimate purpose - that of attaining a state of being kept in perfect truth.

    However, if you don't admit purpose, and all existence is an accident of chance events......free will is a bit of a non-starter as far as you're concerned, isn't it? Accident and chance, by definition, eliminate purpose and thus must always take the day against free will which, by definition, is purposeful.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  16. #76
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    Their free will finds its ultimate purpose - that of attaining a state of being kept in perfect truth.
    Are they less free than before going to heaven or not?

    If so, are they unhappy about it? Or is it a state of ultimate bliss?

    However, if you don't admit purpose, and all existence is an accident of chance events......free will is a bit of a non-starter as far as you're concerned, isn't it? Accident and chance, by definition, eliminate purpose and thus must always take the day against free will which, by definition, is purposeful.
    I don't understand any of this or what it relates to.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  17. #77
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Actually Pliny (AD 61-114), Tacitus (AD 55-118), and Suetonius (AD 69 -140) all wrote about Jesus. These are pagan and secular people who were opposed to Christianity.

    ---------- Post added at 08:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 AM ----------

    Actually Pliny (AD 61-114), Tacitus (AD 55-118), and Suetonius (AD 69 -140) all wrote about Jesus. These are pagan and secular people who were opposed to Christianity.

    Also Josephus, born AD 37 wrote two Jewish works, the Jewish War AD 75 and the Jewish Antiquities AD94. He was one of the Jewish commanders in the war with Rome and wrote after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 in order to inform the Roman public more accurately about the religion of his fathers and to reestablish some credit for Judaism in their minds. Twice Josephus refers to Jesus.

    "And there arose about this time (I.e. Pilate's time AD 26 - 36) Jesus, a wise man, if indeed we should call him a man; for he was a doer of marvelous deeds, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure. He won over many Jews, and also many Greeks. This man was the Christ. And when Pilate had condemned him to the cross at the instigation of our own leaders, those who loved him from the first did not cease. For he appeared to them on the third day alive again, as the holy prophets had predicted and said many other wonderful things about him. And even now the race of Christians, so called after him, has not disappeared. (Antiquities 18.3.3)

  18. #78
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Pssssssst.... all irrelevant to the 10C's, care to take it to another thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by X
    Actually Pliny (AD 61-114), Tacitus (AD 55-118), and Suetonius (AD 69 -140) all wrote about Jesus. These are pagan and secular people who were opposed to Christianity.

    Also Josephus, born AD 37 wrote two Jewish works, the Jewish War AD 75 and the Jewish Antiquities AD94. He was one of the Jewish commanders in the war with Rome and wrote after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 in order to inform the Roman public more accurately about the religion of his fathers and to reestablish some credit for Judaism in their minds. Twice Josephus refers to Jesus.

    "And there arose about this time (I.e. Pilate's time AD 26 - 36) Jesus, a wise man, if indeed we should call him a man; for he was a doer of marvelous deeds, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure. He won over many Jews, and also many Greeks. This man was the Christ. And when Pilate had condemned him to the cross at the instigation of our own leaders, those who loved him from the first did not cease. For he appeared to them on the third day alive again, as the holy prophets had predicted and said many other wonderful things about him. And even now the race of Christians, so called after him, has not disappeared. (Antiquities 18.3.3)


    Opposing theory to the creation of the "known universe". Read it carefully, it's not a difficult read on physics and quantum mechanics.

  19. #79
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Yes sorry about that. Seems topics can tend to drift in here. But that's the beauty of blogs.

  20. #80
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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by xceptionalguy View Post
    Actually Pliny (AD 61-114), Tacitus (AD 55-118), and Suetonius (AD 69 -140) all wrote about Jesus. These are pagan and secular people who were opposed to Christianity.

    ---------- Post added at 08:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 AM ----------

    Actually Pliny (AD 61-114), Tacitus (AD 55-118), and Suetonius (AD 69 -140) all wrote about Jesus. These are pagan and secular people who were opposed to Christianity.

    Also Josephus, born AD 37 wrote two Jewish works, the Jewish War AD 75 and the Jewish Antiquities AD94. He was one of the Jewish commanders in the war with Rome and wrote after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 in order to inform the Roman public more accurately about the religion of his fathers and to reestablish some credit for Judaism in their minds. Twice Josephus refers to Jesus.

    "And there arose about this time (I.e. Pilate's time AD 26 - 36) Jesus, a wise man, if indeed we should call him a man; for he was a doer of marvelous deeds, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure. He won over many Jews, and also many Greeks. This man was the Christ. And when Pilate had condemned him to the cross at the instigation of our own leaders, those who loved him from the first did not cease. For he appeared to them on the third day alive again, as the holy prophets had predicted and said many other wonderful things about him. And even now the race of Christians, so called after him, has not disappeared. (Antiquities 18.3.3)
    Decades later and based on what? Reliable contemporary and objective accounts or the very same legend that the four gospels are likely to be based on? There's no doubt that the legend of Jesus has spread with ease. That's evident even in recent times. You have millions of educated people actually believing that when they look at a wafer and some wine they are looking at flesh and blood of a guy who lived 2000 years ago. Now that's some powerful stuff. Doesn't make it anymore likely to be true. But it does illustrate just how potent this particular legend is. Did it exist in the days of Pliny & co? You bet.
    Last edited by Allocutus; October 20th, 2009 at 02:15 PM.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

 

 
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