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  1. #1
    brentpidduck
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    Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    It is often said that Christians are "no longer under the law," and yet at the same time, it would be hard to argue that commands such as "thou shalt not kill," hold no moral obligation for believers. So the question: are the Ten Commandments no longer in effect for New Testament believers?

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Welcome to ODN!

    Quote Originally Posted by brentpidduck View Post
    It is often said that Christians are "no longer under the law,"
    Who is saying this?

    Quote Originally Posted by brentpidduck View Post
    and yet at the same time, it would be hard to argue that commands such as "thou shalt not kill," hold no moral obligation for believers.
    They certainly do hold moral obligation for believers. What would make you think otherwise? You can argue whether certain Christians follow them to the word, however as Christians, we still accept the Torah and therefore are still expected to follow the Ten Commandments.

    Quote Originally Posted by brentpidduck View Post
    So the question: are the Ten Commandments no longer in effect for New Testament believers?
    No, they still are. In the New Testament, it is written that:

    Matthew 5:17-20
    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by brentpidduck View Post
    It is often said that Christians are "no longer under the law," and yet at the same time, it would be hard to argue that commands such as "thou shalt not kill," hold no moral obligation for believers. So the question: are the Ten Commandments no longer in effect for New Testament believers?
    The law is still in effect but it is not of effect in terms of judgment as far as Christians are concerned since Christ has borne the punishment for breaking the law and Christians rely on Jesus' imputed righteousness for salvation, not on their own righteousness through the keeping of the law.

    Thus, Christians keep the law through love. Jesus said: "If you love me you will keep my commandments." And the two commandments Christ gave are: "Love God," and "love your neighbour."

    These principles are fully expounded in the first 12 chapters of Romans.

    Those who rely on Jesus' imputed righteouness are not judged by the law as they have been made 100% righteous in Christ. Christ has had heaped on Him the sin of the whole world and has been judged and borne the penalty for sin - death - in their place.

    Those who do not accept Jesus' imputed righteousness (salvation) must necessarily be judged by the law since God has made no other remission of sin available. And if the law is broken in part it is broken in whole.

    Whereas under the Old Covenant there was remission of sin via animal sacrifice (the innocent animal having its blood shed for the guilty person as without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin) under the New Covenant, Jesus has become the once and for all atoning sacrifice for sin through the shedding of His innocent blood on the cross. Therefore, there is now no other sacrifice for sin available and those who do not avail themselves of Jesus' atoning sacrifice must necessarily be judged by the law.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    I don't mean to offend but it righting like this that stops me from believing in the bible. I can see how the last paragraphs can be interpreted in several different way leaving it to man to explain the message trying to be portrayed. What is the message to you?

    ---------- Post added at 09:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 PM ----------

    I think like all religions there are always two types of people. The people who use it to further their spirituality and people who use it for their own gain. The second group will only follow the commandments if it justifies their actions or if it helps them persecute some one who they don't agree with. Isn't George Bush a Christian? he is the biggest mass murderer of modern times.
    Last edited by NthN; October 13th, 2009 at 07:49 PM.
    To be wise you must first understand you will always be ignorant.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    The law is still in effect but it is not of effect in terms of judgment as far as Christians are concerned since Christ has borne the punishment for breaking the law and Christians rely on Jesus' imputed righteousness for salvation, not on their own righteousness through the keeping of the law.

    Thus, Christians keep the law through love. Jesus said: "If you love me you will keep my commandments." And the two commandments Christ gave are: "Love God," and "love your neighbour."

    These principles are fully expounded in the first 12 chapters of Romans.

    Those who rely on Jesus' imputed righteouness are not judged by the law as they have been made 100% righteous in Christ. Christ has had heaped on Him the sin of the whole world and has been judged and borne the penalty for sin - death - in their place.

    Those who do not accept Jesus' imputed righteousness (salvation) must necessarily be judged by the law since God has made no other remission of sin available. And if the law is broken in part it is broken in whole.

    Whereas under the Old Covenant there was remission of sin via animal sacrifice (the innocent animal having its blood shed for the guilty person as without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin) under the New Covenant, Jesus has become the once and for all atoning sacrifice for sin through the shedding of His innocent blood on the cross. Therefore, there is now no other sacrifice for sin available and those who do not avail themselves of Jesus' atoning sacrifice must necessarily be judged by the law.
    Good post Dis, it helped clear up some questions but here is what I don't get....

    A few of the punishments for breaking certain commandments required death by your peers. So lets say me, for example, who doesn't accept the divinity of Christ (or the existence of god for that matter) and I happen to break Sabbath, which required stoning outside the gates of the community before JC came along. Shouldn't someone be stoning me because that is the punishment required for this sin according to per the bolded part of your post?

    Numbers 15:32-36
    While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
    I don't accept Jesus or God, shouldn't this punishment apply? Why or why not? Where is it said that stoning should stop and I now have to wait for judgment after I die? Or is this one of those instances where the punishment only applies to those of that time but the law still applies to all for all time?

    Also, a very large number of Christians break this sabbath law every single week either out of necessity, (they have to work to feed the family, keep the country infrastructure running, etc...) or because the football game is on and I do understand that as Christians, they are forgiven for this, however, aren't sins only forgiven if they repent and try their best not to commit said sin again? Isn't being repentant without effort unforgivable? Or are you forgiven for sins no matter how many times you commit a sin?


    Opposing theory to the creation of the "known universe". Read it carefully, it's not a difficult read on physics and quantum mechanics.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Okay, I am a good person, That is reflected n the service to my community. I work for what I get. But regardless that I help and do not hurt my fellow man, according to the big ten, I'll be punished for not accepting all the commandments. Obviously these would not apply to me but I'll play along and see who else will.

    I am the Lord your God:
    (That's a deal breaker for me.)

    You shall have no other Gods before me (Same)

    You shall not worship idols (I worship my wife)

    You shall not misuse the name of God
    (I do that often, like when I hit my thumb with a hammer)

    Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy (This one seems to mean different things to different people. From not doing a lick of labor (other than to cook) to just remembering that that IS the Sabbath. If it is the latter I know of no one that follows it.)

    Honor your father and mother (I've been sold down the river by BOTH my parents. While I've forgiven my mother I will not my father as he was the abusive alcoholic father that beat me near daily)

    You shall not murder (Here's ONE I fully support)

    You shall not commit adultery (That's one of my wife's rules, though I wouldn't even consider it)

    You shall not steal (Another one I can get behind. But is cheating on your taxes considered stealing?)

    You shall not lie (Easy enough)

    You shall not covet (I don't think this should send one to hell).

    Of course I am an atheist so now I ask the believers here to answer as to how many of the ten they actually follow TO THE LETTER.


    I am the Lord your God:

    You shall have no other Gods before me

    You shall not worship idols

    You shall not misuse the name of God

    Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy

    Honor your father and mother

    You shall not murder

    You shall not commit adultery

    You shall not steal

    You shall not lie

    You shall not covet
    When the power of love becomes stronger than the love of power, there will be peace..........jimi hendrix.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    This is exactly why i think the bible is out dated and irrelevant. If people want to follow the old commandments that's their right but they shouldn't preach to others that don't follow them.
    To be wise you must first understand you will always be ignorant.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsdarts View Post
    Good post Dis, it helped clear up some questions but here is what I don't get....

    A few of the punishments for breaking certain commandments required death by your peers. So lets say me, for example, who doesn't accept the divinity of Christ (or the existence of god for that matter) and I happen to break Sabbath, which required stoning outside the gates of the community before JC came along. Shouldn't someone be stoning me because that is the punishment required for this sin according to per the bolded part of your post?

    Numbers 15:32-36
    I don't accept Jesus or God, shouldn't this punishment apply? Why or why not? Where is it said that stoning should stop and I now have to wait for judgment after I die? Or is this one of those instances where the punishment only applies to those of that time but the law still applies to all for all time?
    You need first to understand that under the Old Covenant, Israel was a nation chosen by God to reveal Himself to humanity. A major part of this revelation concerned God's holiness - that He is altogether holy and cannot be approached by anything or anyone less than holy. Hence the elaborate Levetical ceremonial rituals and the requirement for propitiatory animal sacrifice.

    Secondly, it is necessary to understand why the law was given. The purpose of the law is to show sin - "..for by the law is the knowledge of sin.." Romans 2:20.

    And if there were no law there would be no transgression:

    Romans 4:15 "...for where no law is, there is no transgression."

    Concerning punishment for breaking the law: at the final judgement, it is always death. However, under the Old Covenant, God instituted animal sacrifice to atone for sin. The use of a judicial death sentence (amongst other judicial penalties) for breaking the law was to maintain Godliness and order within the society so as to maintain its purity and holiness so that God (His holy character) could be revealed through His chosen people.

    So we see two strains of the law: the universal law given to Moses in the Ten Commandments and the specific rules God gave to Israel for the orderly administration of society. Those not of Israel were not judged by the societal laws but God held them responsible for breaking the universal law since He has written it on their hearts, their consciences bearing witness.

    Romans 2:14,15.

    (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)


    Also, a very large number of Christians break this sabbath law every single week either out of necessity, (they have to work to feed the family, keep the country infrastructure running, etc...) or because the football game is on and I do understand that as Christians, they are forgiven for this, however, aren't sins only forgiven if they repent and try their best not to commit said sin again? Isn't being repentant without effort unforgivable? Or are you forgiven for sins no matter how many times you commit a sin?
    The Sabbath Rest is a topic in its own right - it would take me far too long to explain it here. However, if you would like to understand better what the Sabbth rest signifies, here is a good exposition.

    The Sabbath Rest of Hebrews 4

    This is not to engage in Linkwarz - only to offer a source that will explain the Sabbath Rest since I don't think your question refers only to the breaking of the Sabbath by Christians but the breaking of any of the Ten Commandments. Thus I'll attempt to answer that in a general fashion and am only supplying the link re The Sabbath Rest for further reading, if you so wish, not as part of my argument.

    To return to your question re forgiveness.

    Forgiveness of sin is best understood when one realises that sin is a condition symptomised by sinful acts. Man's sinful condition derives from the fallen nature of mankind through Adam. This fallen nature, present in all people, is symptomised by the fact that every person ever born commits sinful acts. And the wages (earned/deserved reward) for sin is death.

    But Jesus did not inherit man's sinful nature - He was not born of Adam's seed, He was born of the Holy Spirit. When Jesus died on the cross, God placed on Him the sinful condition of all men everywhere for all time (which includes every symptom of that sinful condition) so that He took the penalty for sin - death - in the place of humanity. Being fully man and fully God, Jesus could fully represent man and God and thus mediate between the two, since a mediator must be representative of those between who he mediates. (WHAT IS A MEDIATOR?)

    Thus the sinful condition (that is symptomised by sinful acts) in all people, everywhere, for all time has been judged and punished in Christ's atoning death.

    All that then remains is for people to accept Christ's substitutionary atonement and the eternal life He offers which is guaranteed by His resurrection.

    Thus, when we come to Christ and are born again of the Holy Spirit, we are fully identified with Him (the Second Adam born of incorruptible seed - that is, of God, and representative of all who are born of God, and in a similar way as we are identified with the First Adam inasmuch as he represents ALL humanity) and are crucified with Him in the flesh (that is, we count ourselves as dead to the flesh since we all will die physically sooner or later) and are raised with Him to new life in the Spirit. And since our lives are now "hid in Christ" so long as Christ lives, we live.

    So, forgiveness of sin is forgiveness of the sinful condition that produces sinful acts and the gift of a new life in Christ that is incorruptible.

    I Peter 1:23
    23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    So even when a Christian's our old nature (which we count as dead until we actually die physically) causes sinful acts, since it is has been crucified with Christ it has no effect on our new, regenerate nature which is the life of Christ in us and is incorruptible.

    That is not an invitation to licentiousness. Jesus said, "if you love me you WILL keep my commandments" and we are enabled to love Jesus and to keep His commandments by His Spirit in us (to the extent that we walk in the spirit and not in the lust of the flesh).

    This is why, in Christ, there is perfect liberty.

    Galations 5:

    13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

    14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

    16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

    17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


    And why Paul is able to say in 1 Corinthians 10:23

    The Believer's Freedom

    23"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others


    I have tried to condense a huge amount within this reply - I apologise if it is at all incoherent - I've had a lot of interruptions whilst trying to write this response, and I am not a gifted expositor of the Word. But I didn't want to leave your questions unanswered, so I have done my best to offer a reply. For a better understanding than I could ever offer, I recommend that you read the first 12 chapters of the book of Romans alongside a Bible Commentary such as that of Matthew Henry. Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Dis,

    Unless I missed it, (it was lengthy and incoherent at times) you didn't answer my main question, which isn't necessarily aimed at the sabbath directly, but more towards sins in general. The sabbath was used specifically only to show a sin that is often repeated, regardless of ones devotion to christianity.

    In 1 John 2 it says,

    4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love[a] is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

    This means you can't continue to repeat the same sins (like breaking the sabbath) and think you will still receive a ticket to heaven. If you are born again, you are suppose to have changed somehow so that you live "in christ", yet millions upon millions work every sunday week after week, without a second thought, as though this is a minor sin that can just be over looked. Would you not agree? To repent doesn't mean to just utter a few words asking for forgiveness and concluding that this is the formula for salvation. Repent means to ask for forgiveness and stop doing the sin you are repenting for, would you not agree?


    Opposing theory to the creation of the "known universe". Read it carefully, it's not a difficult read on physics and quantum mechanics.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsdarts View Post
    Dis,

    Unless I missed it, (it was lengthy and incoherent at times) you didn't answer my main question, which isn't necessarily aimed at the sabbath directly, but more towards sins in general. The sabbath was used specifically only to show a sin that is often repeated, regardless of ones devotion to christianity.

    In 1 John 2 it says,

    4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love[a] is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

    This means you can't continue to repeat the same sins (like breaking the sabbath) and think you will still receive a ticket to heaven. If you are born again, you are suppose to have changed somehow so that you live "in christ", yet millions upon millions work every sunday week after week, without a second thought, as though this is a minor sin that can just be over looked. Would you not agree? To repent doesn't mean to just utter a few words asking for forgiveness and concluding that this is the formula for salvation. Repent means to ask for forgiveness and stop doing the sin you are repenting for, would you not agree?

    Forget sin, forget tickets to heaven, and just concentrate for a moment on Jesus Christ being your righteousness. Thus, anything you do as a Christian is not judged by God. God finds you 100% righteous in Jesus.

    How you then live your life is constrained by love - not by fear of the just penalty that is deserved by breaking the law.

    Repentance is an initial acknowledgement (followed by a continuing acknowledgement) that you have fallen short of God's just demands of His human creation, which is 100% righteousness, since God designed man to derive his spirit ( that is, his life, because it is the Spirit that gives life) from Himself.

    Further, repentance is agreeing with God and continuing to agree with God which brings about a rejection of all that one is and does and has done and likely will do without God. Repentance acknowledges that humanity is NOTHING without God; in fact, humanity is worse than nothing without God; humanity without God is wholly and comprehensively evil. Thus, repentance is not some kind of momentary abjection brought about by being found out in particular sinful action. It is a wholesale repentance of total and complete unacceptabilty before God.

    When John speaks about saying but not doing, he is rightly poniting to the fact that faith without works is non-existent. IF one believes, one WILL act. And if one does not ACT, then one's belief/faith is necessarily questionable.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    Forget sin, forget tickets to heaven, and just concentrate for a moment on Jesus Christ being your righteousness. Thus, anything you do as a Christian is not judged by God. God finds you 100% righteous in Jesus.

    How you then live your life is constrained by love - not by fear of the just penalty that is deserved by breaking the law.

    Repentance is an initial acknowledgement (followed by a continuing acknowledgement) that you have fallen short of God's just demands of His human creation, which is 100% righteousness, since God designed man to derive his spirit ( that is, his life, because it is the Spirit that gives life) from Himself.

    Further, repentance is agreeing with God and continuing to agree with God which brings about a rejection of all that one is and does and has done and likely will do without God. Repentance acknowledges that humanity is NOTHING without God; in fact, humanity is worse than nothing without God; humanity without God is wholly and comprehensively evil. Thus, repentance is not some kind of momentary abjection brought about by being found out in particular sinful action. It is a wholesale repentance of total and complete unacceptabilty before God.

    When John speaks about saying but not doing, he is rightly poniting to the fact that faith without works is non-existent. IF one believes, one WILL act. And if one does not ACT, then one's belief/faith is necessarily questionable.
    Then you're admitting that most christians have questionable faith by the simple fact that many christians continue to break the sabbath (amongst other sins) regardless of their faith in Jesus. To deny this is to ignore the fact that you and others can't help yourselves but to break at least one of the ten commandments. Do you work on the Sabbath? Could you imagine a world where no one worked on the sabbath? God hasn't updated his commandments as far as I know. are all these people going to be excluded from their ticket to heaven? And yes, we must keep this ticket in mind if we are to have any meaningful conversation about the 10C's and breaking these rules. This also brings up the question of gods alleged love for ALL when me, the non-murderous person who doesn't believe he exists, sends me to hell for my lack of belief, a belief I can NOT and DO NOT have a choice in without lying to myself and the murderer who repents, commits no more murders follows Jesus as you follow Jesus and yet he gets into heaven. But thats another debate all together.


    Opposing theory to the creation of the "known universe". Read it carefully, it's not a difficult read on physics and quantum mechanics.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by NthN View Post
    I think like all religions there are always two types of people. The people who use it to further their spirituality and people who use it for their own gain. The second group will only follow the commandments if it justifies their actions or if it helps them persecute some one who they don't agree with.
    The fact that there are poor adherents to the creed doesn't invalidate the creed. It just means that they kind of missed the point.


    Quote Originally Posted by NthN
    Isn't George Bush a Christian? he is the biggest mass murderer of modern times.
    argumentum ad Hitlerum, except using Bush. This is a non sequitur. Lots of bad people have professed the Christian faith, but it doesn't mean that the faith they profess is any less for it. It means that they professed a faith whose tenets they didn't follow properly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Itsdarts View Post
    A few of the punishments for breaking certain commandments required death by your peers. So lets say me, for example, who doesn't accept the divinity of Christ (or the existence of god for that matter) and I happen to break Sabbath, which required stoning outside the gates of the community before JC came along. Shouldn't someone be stoning me because that is the punishment required for this sin according to per the bolded part of your post?

    I don't accept Jesus or God, shouldn't this punishment apply? Why or why not? Where is it said that stoning should stop and I now have to wait for judgment after I die? Or is this one of those instances where the punishment only applies to those of that time but the law still applies to all for all time?
    As Christians, we are given very specific guidance about the way we should deal with those who break the law: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Also, "judge not, lest ye be judged yourselves." Last, we are not called upon to be executors of God's judgment. "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsdarts
    Also, a very large number of Christians break this sabbath law every single week either out of necessity, (they have to work to feed the family, keep the country infrastructure running, etc...) or because the football game is on and I do understand that as Christians, they are forgiven for this, however, aren't sins only forgiven if they repent and try their best not to commit said sin again? Isn't being repentant without effort unforgivable? Or are you forgiven for sins no matter how many times you commit a sin?
    The understanding is that sins are forgiven if we repent of them. The defining point of repentance, though, is that you "turn away" from your sins and attempt to amend your life so that you can live in better accordance with God's commands. Second, Disinterested put it very well when she said that we are still subject to the Law but not held accountable for the price of breaking it through faith in Jesus' death and resurrection. Also, Jesus made several very good examples of what he thought of the very legalistic points of the Commandments when he did things like healing sick people on the Sabbath, having his followers gleaning fields on the Sabbath, and eating with sinners. The point of keeping the Sabbath is that we remember to set aside special time for communion with God and communal worship and that we actually stop our lives to do it. In cases where such things would be too much a hardship, Jesus' example of doing "forbidden" things on the Sabbath shows us that Grace is prevalent over the letter of the Law and that God looks at our intentions when we do things rather than simply at the mere facts of the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsdarts View Post
    This means you can't continue to repeat the same sins (like breaking the sabbath) and think you will still receive a ticket to heaven. If you are born again, you are suppose to have changed somehow so that you live "in christ", yet millions upon millions work every sunday week after week, without a second thought, as though this is a minor sin that can just be over looked.
    Actually, the Catholic Church teaches that voluntarily missing Sunday Mass without a good reason is a mortal sin that puts one out of a "state of Grace" until it is shriven. Then again, there are usually several Catholic churches in a given area, and all of them have multiple service times on Sunday so that anyone who wants to make the effort to attend should be able to do so. Services take about an hour, so in the grand scheme of things, it's not really that much of a burden to impose upon the believer to spend at least an hour a week to contemplate God's infinite love. In all Christian faiths, the idea is not to "receive a ticket to Heaven," as Dis also replied. The idea is that we do our best to live by the commandments God has set before us and trust in the saving Grace of Jesus' Resurrection to "make up the difference." This is not purely out of the hope of Heaven as much as it is out of love for God and the desire to live a holy life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsdarts
    To repent doesn't mean to just utter a few words asking for forgiveness and concluding that this is the formula for salvation. Repent means to ask for forgiveness and stop doing the sin you are repenting for, would you not agree?
    This is, indeed, what it means to repent. However, repentance doesn't make us perfect any more than does baptism, confirmation, or any other sacrament. We will still make mistakes and lapse in our judgment. This is where Grace comes in. As long as we are making the good-faith effort, Jesus' Grace "meets us halfway," so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsdarts
    This also brings up the question of gods alleged love for ALL when me, the non-murderous person who doesn't believe he exists, sends me to hell for my lack of belief, a belief I can NOT and DO NOT have a choice in without lying to myself and the murderer who repents, commits no more murders follows Jesus as you follow Jesus and yet he gets into heaven. But thats another debate all together.
    God does not force people to follow Him. A good model is comparing God's love to the light of the sun. As long as we stay in the sunlight and keep moving toward it, we will receive the benefits of its warmth. Those who turn away from the sunlight and stay in the shadows can stop doing so at any time and "come into the light." It is *our* choice to refuse to acknowledge God's love and sacrifice, and thus it is not God's lack of love that sends people to Hell. It is a refusal of each person to accept that love that sends people to Hell because they refuse to simply "reach out" and grab the branch, so to speak.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Itsdarts
    This also brings up the question of gods alleged love for ALL when me, the non-murderous person who doesn't believe he exists, sends me to hell for my lack of belief, a belief I can NOT and DO NOT have a choice in without lying to myself and the murderer who repents, commits no more murders follows Jesus as you follow Jesus and yet he gets into heaven. But thats another debate all together.

    God does not force people to follow Him. A good model is comparing God's love to the light of the sun. As long as we stay in the sunlight and keep moving toward it, we will receive the benefits of its warmth. Those who turn away from the sunlight and stay in the shadows can stop doing so at any time and "come into the light." It is *our* choice to refuse to acknowledge God's love and sacrifice, and thus it is not God's lack of love that sends people to Hell. It is a refusal of each person to accept that love that sends people to Hell because they refuse to simply "reach out" and grab the branch, so to speak.
    I have a serious problem with the bolded part. I do not have a choice to accept god or acknowledge his existence, at least not without feeling as if I'm making it up. Sure, I could "say" Praise Jesus our Father who art in Heaven and play the role of a good Christian, but deep down inside of me, I know this god can't exist. In other words, I can't accept Faith, the belief without logical proof or empirical evidence. If I said I believed, it would be a lie, even if i could convince you, and assuming your god did exist and was omniscient, he would know that I don't really believe. So to retain my own intellectual honesty, I readily admit that I lack all belief in his existence. Obviously I won't be 100% certain til death, but then its too late. Is it not? Can you "honestly" choose not to believe? Could you say "I don't believe in god" and know deep in your heart it was the truth? If not, then like me, you don't have an intellectually honest choice to not believe. Assuming this is the case, you could commit murder, repent and never do it again, then you could rape, repent and never do it again and from there out, you live your life according to Jesus as best as you possibly can and you get into heaven because you don't have a choice not to believe. Yet I live my life as best as can be, maybe not perfect, but certainly without horrible sins under my belt and all because I can't accept gods existence, I go to hell?

    This whole, we have a choice to accept god is pure bull. We don't have a choice without lying to ourselves. Not one of us atheists has a choice. We aren't wired that way without better evidence. I've reached out and found myself talking to myself. I've prayed only for the answer to be, No or maybe. Then I watched Muslims fly into the WTC and I assumed they prayed and their answer was either yes, or concluded this god couldn't exist and they just got lucky, which to me is the more plausible answer.

    I liked your replies to my other points and concede those points, thanks for a clear and concise reply to them.


    Opposing theory to the creation of the "known universe". Read it carefully, it's not a difficult read on physics and quantum mechanics.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    [QUOTE=Talthas;410881]The fact that there are poor adherents to the creed doesn't invalidate the creed. It just means that they kind of missed the point.

    But the argument here is do the commandments still apply? If there are more and more people "missing the point" would it not imply that the commandments are becoming irrelevant in modern time? If a religion does not cater to the masses then how can it be appealing for the every day person?
    To be wise you must first understand you will always be ignorant.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by NthN View Post
    But the argument here is do the commandments still apply? If there are more and more people "missing the point" would it not imply that the commandments are becoming irrelevant in modern time? If a religion does not cater to the masses then how can it be appealing for the every day person?
    Christianty is not meant to cater for the masses. It is a declaration of subservience out of love, respect and fear to God. Whether it is hard or not to obey him is irrelevant, Christians still must obey him. They are not christian out of convienience but a genuine belief in the Christian God and dogma.
    Last edited by eliotitus; October 14th, 2009 at 11:46 PM.
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    For Christians, sin will ALWAYS be sin.

    When you hear statements about "under God's law" vs. "under God's grace", that deals with the atonement for sin. In the OT the Jews were under God's law and atoned for their sins through various sacrifices to God, etc.

    When you are "under God's grace", your need not atone for your sins at all. The big JC picked up the check when you weren't looking. All you have to do is believe that he is the Son of God and that he died for your sins.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by NthN View Post
    But the argument here is do the commandments still apply? If there are more and more people "missing the point" would it not imply that the commandments are becoming irrelevant in modern time?
    The precepts laid out by the Ten Commandments are a template for what I believe a majority of people would agree are acceptable moral rules and are, thus, very relevant in all times where human society exists at all. I will elaborate by example for each Commandment. Since the Ten Commandments are originally Jewish, I will use their division of them.

    1) I am the Lord your God. This commandment requires that we acknowledge the existence and primacy of Divinity, and in the case of those who believe, implies a covenant type relationship where God acts as our Lord and we as his vassals, with all the rights and responsibilities thereof. For anyone who is not atheist, this is a pretty simple and universal commandment.

    2) You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourselves an idol.... This is a command to keep sacred that which is sacred and to allow nothing to be substituted wrongfully for what is holy. It is also a command that we should not elevate the base or anything we ourselves create to the status of a false "holiness" by "worshiping" it. Every human creation has flaws, and to deify human creations is to blind ourselves to the possibility that we are wrong about them. This commandment is universal because it requires us to keep our eyes open and our hearts properly attuned to that which is sacred.

    3) You shall not take the Name of the Lord in vain. The Talmud interprets this commandment as an injunction against swearing falsely, frivolously, or pointlessly using the name of God. Essentially, this is a commandment that reserves the strongest of all oaths for that which is truly important. To constantly invoke the strongest oath one knows is to invalidate its potency as an oath. It essentially makes a person's oath meaningless. The Catholic Church also extends this commandment to include an injunction against misusing religious language or religious offices to commit misdeeds. This commandment is universal because it requires that we are custodians of the strength of our oaths and that we do not render meaningless those things which are holy to us by their misuse.

    4) Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... The commandment to rest and worship God on the Sabbath is nothing more or less than an explicit codification of our need to pause and remember that which is good, holy, and right in the world, and to do so in a way that allows us to step back from the daily grind of our lives so that we regain perspective as to what is truly important. If we never stop doing our daily tasks and look out to see the purpose of them all, what is the point of living? We become nothing more than mindless drones working for its own sake. The command to keep the Sabbath holy reflects our need to simply be still and enjoy the fruits of what we have done, and to be grateful to the One from whom all good things come. Even if you don't believe in one single God, this is a pretty universal need in human beings.

    5) Honor your father and mother. This command extends not only to paying respect to people who deserve it the most - the ones who gave us life itself - but also to respecting our traditions and history as people. Doing honor to one's mother and father is a sacred duty in almost every culture in the world. If parents are doing their sacred duty to their children and providing them with what is necessary for them to have a good life (as best they are able), then the children owe literally everything they have and everything they are to their parents. Why should this not be a universal precept, then, to give honor to those people who deserve it? In like fashion, it is important to preserve our tradition and history, lest we forget who we are and where we come from.

    6)Do not commit murder. Every society has an injunction against the most dire violation a person can inflict upon another. In depriving a person of life, we extinguish all that he ever was, is, and could have become. We deprive the community of his unique gifts and his family of a valuable member. An injunction against murder is even agreed upon by many atheists. Why should it not be universal in even greater measure for those who do believe in deity?

    7)Do not commit adultery. This taboo exists in almost every culture where some sort of contractual agreement exists between two people who desire to be mates or partners. The commandment can also be interpreted to be a commandment to respect the oath-bonds of other people and also to refrain from interfering in the relationships which people have chosen to form with each other. It also requires that we are faithful to our own oath-bonds with someone who has chosen to dedicate a significant part of their lives to being with us, for weal or woe. These precepts seem to me to be pretty universal, even if they manifest in different ways in different cultures.

    8)Do not steal. Almost every society where private property exists has a convention by which the right of each person to retain his own private property is respected and protected. An injunction against stealing is, therefore, only right. However, the Talmud points out that this commandment may be more appropriately translated as, "do not Kidnap," since the theft of property is dealt with in other parts of the Bible. An injunction against forcibly taking another person away from where he or she is meant to be is even more universal, because it deprives a person of autonomy and deprives the person's family and friends of their loved one.

    9)Do not bear false witness against your neighbor. This commandment enjoins us to preserve the integrity of our social institutions by dealing in good faith with courts of law, where truth must prevail in order for a harmonious society to exist. It can be extended further to forbid the spread of malicious lies about someone, thus sullying a person's reputation unjustly. Almost all societies, theistic and atheistic, place a value on truth as a virtuous thing. With this in mind, the preservation of honesty in dealing with courts of law and with each other seems universal to me.

    10)Do not covet your neighbor's wife... This commandment enjoins us to be content with what we have and to not wish ill upon our neighbor for his good fortune. According to the Talmud, the injunction is specifically against planning to take something which belongs to another person. In any case, the idea here is that we maintain an internal respect for the property and fortunes of others and, as much as possible, do not interfere in their happiness or waste our efforts wishing for what someone else has. If we fail to see the good in our own lives so much that we envy what someone else has, then we are approaching our own lives with the wrong attitude. Spending time and energy plotting how to take someone else's things or how to "steal" someone's wife can only be destructive by nature, since it creates nothing except discontent and discord and destroys the bonds of society in the execution of what was conceived. Note, this commandment does not forbid ambition or the desire to improve one's fortunes. It simply forbids wishing ill upon another person for what they have done, or seeking to unjustly deprive someone else of the fruits of their labor or fortune. I can't see how that's not a pretty universal precept.


    Quote Originally Posted by NthN
    If a religion does not cater to the masses then how can it be appealing for the every day person?
    It depends on what you mean by "catering to the masses." Religion is not meant to be "base" or "popular." It is meant to elevate the spirit toward those things which are sacred and meant to be honored as holy and good. People who have no interest in the good and the holy have no interest in religion, and religions should not be expected to cater to those people except to encourage them to change their minds.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast View Post
    Welcome to ODN!



    Who is saying this?



    They certainly do hold moral obligation for believers. What would make you think otherwise? You can argue whether certain Christians follow them to the word, however as Christians, we still accept the Torah and therefore are still expected to follow the Ten Commandments.
    we are free from the law in the terms of getting into Heaven. However, why come into Heaven by the skin of your teeth and not enjoy the richness of the gifts for which Heaven haas to offer. Christ washes away all sins and provides us grace. Satan attempts to deceive us and go instead of God for us to follow him. This is Satans purpose, to be something instead of God. If we choose other than God, then do we love God? Or do we love mammon? The verse below states if we break these commandments we would be called least in heaven, but still be in heaven. We cannot be plucked from Gods hand by our deeds, unless we willingly do such.



    No, they still are. In the New Testament, it is written that:

    Matthew 5:17-20
    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    We are to live as an example to others who are not saved, you as a christian may drink alcohol and still go to heaven, but having a nonbeliever over to your house and drinking wine around him if he's struggling with alcohol addiction will push him away from God which is where the sin comes in. We are to be salt and light for gods people so that they may come to know him. If we sin and do not repent, then what example does that show for others. Being Christian changes you and makes you a new creation. You no longer wish to do the things you did when you weren't saved because of your changed nature. You stop living only for yourself and live to serve god and his people and you do this out of love and not out of seeking a reward.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsdarts View Post
    I have a serious problem with the bolded part. I do not have a choice to accept god or acknowledge his existence, at least not without feeling as if I'm making it up. Sure, I could "say" Praise Jesus our Father who art in Heaven and play the role of a good Christian, but deep down inside of me, I know this god can't exist. In other words, I can't accept Faith, the belief without logical proof or empirical evidence. If I said I believed, it would be a lie, even if i could convince you, and assuming your god did exist and was omniscient, he would know that I don't really believe. So to retain my own intellectual honesty, I readily admit that I lack all belief in his existence. Obviously I won't be 100% certain til death, but then its too late. Is it not? Can you "honestly" choose not to believe? Could you say "I don't believe in god" and know deep in your heart it was the truth? If not, then like me, you don't have an intellectually honest choice to not believe. Assuming this is the case, you could commit murder, repent and never do it again, then you could rape, repent and never do it again and from there out, you live your life according to Jesus as best as you possibly can and you get into heaven because you don't have a choice not to believe. Yet I live my life as best as can be, maybe not perfect, but certainly without horrible sins under my belt and all because I can't accept gods existence, I go to hell?

    This whole, we have a choice to accept god is pure bull. We don't have a choice without lying to ourselves. Not one of us atheists has a choice. We aren't wired that way without better evidence. I've reached out and found myself talking to myself. I've prayed only for the answer to be, No or maybe. Then I watched Muslims fly into the WTC and I assumed they prayed and their answer was either yes, or concluded this god couldn't exist and they just got lucky, which to me is the more plausible answer.

    I liked your replies to my other points and concede those points, thanks for a clear and concise reply to them.
    I know this is addressed to Talthas but I hope you don't mind if I respond while you are waiting for a reply from him. Only, please forgive me if I am not as articulate and concise as Talthas - he has a very clear form of expression which I am afraid I cannot match.

    You say that you find it impossible to believe in God without empirical evidence.

    Someone (I can't remember who) once asked the following question of an atheist.

    How much do you think you know of all that there is to know? 50%? 20%? 10%? Let's be really generous and say that you know 50% of all that there is to know. Do you think that within that 50% that you do NOT know, God could exist?

    Allowing that possibility is a starting point.

    The next step is truly a leap of faith and from your side the bridge between unbelief and belief in God appears to be an unbridgeable chasm. But faith is the bridge that crosses that chasm.

    The best illustration that I can offer comes from an Indiana Jones film - I can't remember which one - I watched it years ago when the children were little.

    Indiana Jones is halted in his tracks when he is faced with a huge chasm. There is no visible means of getting across. I can't quite remember where he gets the info from, but he's told that he must step out into the chasm so as to get to the other side. As he steps out into what appears to be empty space and certain death, a bridge appears beneath his feet and he is able to cross the chasm.

    That's what believing God is like - you don't see the way ahead until you actually take that first step of faith and step out into the unknown and only then does God reveal Himself and the Way forward in a very tangible and real way - at least, that is my experience and the testimony of many Christians whom I have spoken to or read about. For me, the way forward (following an initial step of faith which was, in my case, repentance - agreeing with God that I was, indeed, a sinner) was an experience of Jesus (who is THE Way) that was so real I felt I could almost reach out and touch Him. It was like loving and being loved so completely and in a way that I could never before have imagined, let alone experienced, that it was as though the world had changed from being being black and white to glorious colour.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

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    Re: Are the Ten Commandments still applicable to Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    I know this is addressed to Talthas but I hope you don't mind if I respond while you are waiting for a reply from him. Only, please forgive me if I am not as articulate and concise as Talthas - he has a very clear form of expression which I am afraid I cannot match.

    You say that you find it impossible to believe in God without empirical evidence.

    Someone (I can't remember who) once asked the following question of an atheist.

    How much do you think you know of all that there is to know? 50%? 20%? 10%? Let's be really generous and say that you know 50% of all that there is to know. Do you think that within that 50% that you do NOT know, God could exist?

    Allowing that possibility is a starting point.

    The next step is truly a leap of faith and from your side the bridge between unbelief and belief in God appears to be an unbridgeable chasm. But faith is the bridge that crosses that chasm.

    The best illustration that I can offer comes from an Indiana Jones film - I can't remember which one - I watched it years ago when the children were little.

    Indiana Jones is halted in his tracks when he is faced with a huge chasm. There is no visible means of getting across. I can't quite remember where he gets the info from, but he's told that he must step out into the chasm so as to get to the other side. As he steps out into what appears to be empty space and certain death, a bridge appears beneath his feet and he is able to cross the chasm.

    That's what believing God is like - you don't see the way ahead until you actually take that first step of faith and step out into the unknown and only then does God reveal Himself and the Way forward in a very tangible and real way - at least, that is my experience and the testimony of many Christians whom I have spoken to or read about. For me, the way forward (following an initial step of faith which was, in my case, repentance - agreeing with God that I was, indeed, a sinner) was an experience of Jesus (who is THE Way) that was so real I felt I could almost reach out and touch Him. It was like loving and being loved so completely and in a way that I could never before have imagined, let alone experienced, that it was as though the world had changed from being being black and white to glorious colour.
    Really? You went with Indiana Jones? A movie parable?

    First of all, I do allow the possibility that a god (not yours) could exist, but I have no reason to assume one does. How much I know about all there is to know is irrelevant. What I do know is there is no evidence "that convinces me" your god or any other god exists.

    Second, What part of "lying to myself" wasn't clear? I want you to answer with a yes or no answer, no other reply will be acceptable.
    Challenge to support a claim.Can you deny your god exists and know you are telling yourself the truth? Yes or No.


    Opposing theory to the creation of the "known universe". Read it carefully, it's not a difficult read on physics and quantum mechanics.

 

 
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