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  1. #881
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by HermanLeadread View Post
    *yawn* Support or retract.
    Wow, two years ago … Welcome back Herman.

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    I can’t retract a personal observation and interaction I’ve had with such people mentioned in that comment I made in 2011. However, you’re free not to accept it.

    Just because a belief changes one's life does not mean one's belief is true.
    How can you support that comment unless you know with a certainty what is truth. What is truth?

    What about those who say they want to believe, and can't?
    Embrace can't and then move forward. Can’ts can change, sometimes even for a worst case scenario when we 'stop kicking against the pricks.'

    Lots of people think they can't do this or that or they can't believe in this or that. And then something changes in their life and their perception of can't changes.
    Last edited by eye4magic; November 1st, 2013 at 11:47 PM.
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  2. #882
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic
    How can you support that comment unless you know with a certainty what is truth. What is truth?
    Oh, come on. If his statement is false, then the following necessarily holds:

    (1) For any belief B, if B changes one's life, then B is true.

    Which is logically equivalent to:

    (1') For any belief B, if B is false, then B can't change one's life.


    Isn't (1') clearly false? Suppose that Adam is an atheist, and Bob a Christian. Isn't it plausible that Adam's atheism changes Adam's life, and Bob's Christianity changes Bob's life? At least one of them must possess a false belief, since they can't both be right. If so--if it is indeed plausible that Adam's and Bob's lives are changed by their respective belief systems--then it's plausible that (1') is false.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  3. #883
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Isn't (1') clearly false? Suppose that Adam is an atheist, and Bob a Christian. Isn't it plausible that Adam's atheism changes Adam's life, and Bob's Christianity changes Bob's life? At least one of them must possess a false belief,
    Why? Grace can come in different colors.

    since they can't both be right.
    Their lives can both be changed for the better. If the atheist can’t recognize the hand of the Father in his life because of their belief so be it. The positive change will at least move him in the right direction. More changes may come down the road.

    We tend to think in terms of right or wrong in our materialistic world. Perhaps God sees man in terms of goodness and love verses the levels that obstruct goodness and love.

    If so--if it is indeed plausible that Adam's and Bob's lives are changed by their respective belief systems--then it's plausible that (1') is false.
    God's grace doesn’t need the credit when someone experiences personal transformation. Generally, such an experience brings a new sense of awareness of the Divine in a person’s life that they naturally feel profoundly grateful toward God. But if their awareness does not recognize the Divine in their life, their experience will most likely point them in a positive direction and they are free to move forward from that point.
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  4. #884
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why? Grace can come in different colors.
    Not sure what that means. Either God exists, or he doesn't; the propositions "Christianity is true" and "Atheism is true" are contradictory, regardless of how many "colors" grace comes in.

    Their lives can both be changed for the better. If the atheist can’t recognize the hand of the Father in his life because of their belief so be it. The positive change will at least move him in the right direction. More changes may come down the road.

    We tend to think in terms of right or wrong in our materialistic world. Perhaps God sees man in terms of goodness and love verses the levels that obstruct goodness and love.

    God's grace doesn’t need the credit when someone experiences personal transformation. Generally, such an experience brings a new sense of awareness of the Divine in a person’s life that they naturally feel profoundly grateful toward God. But if their awareness does not recognize the Divine in their life, their experience will most likely point them in a positive direction and they are free to move forward from that point.
    Nothing you said here was relevant to my point.

    Suppose Adam believes "Atheism is true", and this belief changes Adam's life for the better--he makes life-improving decisions based on this belief.
    Suppose Bob believes "Christianity is true", and this belief changes Bob's life for the better--he makes life-improving decisions based on this belief.

    Regardless of whether "God's grace needs the credit", it remains true that at least one of those beliefs must be false; "Atheism is true" and "Christianity is true" cannot both be true.
    Thus, at least one of Adam and Bob possesses a false belief--but that false belief changes their life for the better. This falsifies (1'), and therefore (1).


    None of this has to do with "recognizing the Divine in their life". None of this has to do with "thinking in terms of right or wrong in our materialistic world".
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  5. #885
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Not sure what that means. Either God exists, or he doesn't; the propositions "Christianity is true" and "Atheism is true" are contradictory, regardless of how many "colors" grace comes in.
    The comment above was made in the context of when someone experiences a transformational life change. When such change happens, whether to an atheist, or a Christian, or a Jew or a Muslin, or whoever, it doesn’t matter.

    Suppose Adam believes "Atheism is true", and this belief changes Adam's life for the better--he makes life-improving decisions based on this belief.
    Suppose Bob believes "Christianity is true", and this belief changes Bob's life for the better--he makes life-improving decisions based on this belief.
    Regardless of whether "God's grace needs the credit", it remains true that at least one of those beliefs must be false; "Atheism is true" and "Christianity is true" cannot both be true.
    What is truth Clive? Is it one thing and not another? Do we make something true by our belief? Does mere human belief make our belief truth?
    Does atheism make Christianity untrue? Does Christianity make Christ truth?

    Thus, at least one of Adam and Bob possesses a false belief--but that false belief changes their life
    The point and significance of personal transformational change is not about belief (whether it be false or not), but the significant factor is the transformation itself.

    Can false human beliefs prevent the power grace from changing a person? Perhaps sometimes, but generally not.
    Can true beliefs prevent the power of grace from changing a person? Perhaps sometimes but generally not.

    The power of grace that transforms a person does not depend on our human beliefs, or lack thereof. If it did, it wouldn’t be grace.
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  6. #886
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What is truth Clive? Is it one thing and not another? Do we make something true by our belief? Does mere human belief make our belief truth?
    No, we can't "make" a proposition true by believing it. Whether or not a proposition is true is merely a matter of reality; whether "It is raining at time t in position (x,y,z)" is true is not a matter of how many people believe it is raining. Rather, it is only a matter of whether in fact it is raining (at time t in position (x,y,z)).

    Does atheism make Christianity untrue? Does Christianity make Christ truth?
    Well, I don't know about atheism "making" Christianity untrue. Atheism, if true, implies that Christianity is false. Christianity and atheism cannot possibly both be true.

    If by "Christianity" and "atheism" you're referring to belief systems, then no. The mere fact that Christianity is a belief system doesn't "make" Christ exist.

    The point and significance of personal transformational change is not about belief (whether it be false or not), but the significant factor is the transformation itself.

    Can false human beliefs prevent the power grace from changing a person? Perhaps sometimes, but generally not.
    Can true beliefs prevent the power of grace from changing a person? Perhaps sometimes but generally not.

    The power of grace that transforms a person does not depend on our human beliefs, or lack thereof. If it did, it wouldn’t be grace.
    I'm not talking about the power of grace. The question is about this statement:

    Just because a belief changes one's life does not mean one's belief is true.

    In order for this statement to be true, it is sufficient to show that there is at least onefalse belief that can change one's life.

    This statement does not require that most life-changing beliefs are false--only that not all life-changing beliefs are true.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  7. #887
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    No, we can't "make" a proposition true by believing it.
    Agree.

    Whether or not a proposition is true is merely a matter of reality;
    What is true and absolute reality? Are we certain that our materialistic reality is the only true reality? Are life-changing personal experiences caused by purely materialistic principles?

    whether "It is raining at time t in position (x,y,z)" is true is not a matter of how many people believe it is raining. Rather, it is only a matter of whether in fact it is raining (at time t in position (x,y,z)).
    Based upon a materialistic framework, when we see and experience rain, yes. it is raining. However, do we know for certain that there is no reality outside the temporal materialistic framework? What might rain look like or feel like outside of this framework?

    Well, I don't know about atheism "making" Christianity untrue. Atheism, if true, implies that Christianity is false. Christianity and atheism cannot possibly both be true.
    I don’t disagree with that , but from the frame of reference of a personal transformation, when or if it happens to either an atheist or a Christian, the experience and result of such an experience does not necessarily validate one’s personal beliefs because the power of grace, does not require our belief in order to work. In fact, the experience could change a person's beliefs.

    If by "Christianity" and "atheism" you're referring to belief systems, then no. The mere fact that Christianity is a belief system doesn't "make" Christ exist.
    Agreed, Christ IS regardless of our personal beliefs or lack thereof.

    I'm not talking about the power of grace. The question is about this statement:

    Just because a belief changes one's life does not mean one's belief is true.

    In order for this statement to be true, it is sufficient to show that there is at least one false belief that can change one's life.
    This statement does not require that most life-changing beliefs are false--only that not all life-changing beliefs are true.
    My first response to that is as before, true based upon what criteria? I’m not arguing for or against the claim. I’m questing what is the criteria used to determine truth in order to make the statement. Now you may say, it doesn’t matter what the criteria for truth is in order to make that claim. But if that is the case, then does that mean truth can be anything?

    Second, sometimes life-changing personal experiences happen despite a person's beliefs. In fact, the experience can over ride their beliefs and turn them upside down.

    And, third, if a personal life-changing experience enables a person to move forward in a positive direction that brings about goodness and virtue in their life, that’s what is relevant over beliefs they may have that may or may not be true.

    This scene in the movie ‘Second Hand Lions’ shows an interesting scene about the topic.

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  8. #888
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    I was raised a Catholic/Christian. Once I learned what it meant to be Christian and what I had to accept as truth, I turned away. There are really two different Jesus's. The historical Jesus and the God man/divine Jesus. Although they are one and the same, over time religion has divided them with the creation of Christianity. It is debatable whether or not the historical Jesus existed, and we are asked to believe in the God man/divine Jesus on faith, I prefer the historical Jesus. The historical Jesus did not perform miracles, but instead taught that each of us can attain God-consciousness through his teachings. The divine Jesus was put forth as an idol to worship, with his followers asked to obey laws of old and doctrine created to keep the masses in check. This is of course my opinion, although there are spiritual authors that have written about the subject.

    Why so many non-believers? I call it religion in a box. People are comfortable with how they believe, they don't have the will to explore different religions. When "truth" knocks on the door, one of four things happen;
    1. They don't answer.
    2. They answer but disagree.
    3. They answer and wonder if it could be true.
    4. They answer and agree that it is true and explore what's outside the box.
    Last edited by AXIOM; December 12th, 2013 at 09:05 AM.

  9. #889
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by AXIOM View Post
    The historical Jesus did not perform miracles,
    We know about the historical Jesus from the Gospels. The last time I checked the Gospels, there are numerous miracles in the NT performed by Jesus. So what version of historical Jesus are you talking about?
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    We know about the historical Jesus from the Gospels. The last time I checked the Gospels, there are numerous miracles in the NT performed by Jesus. So what version of historical Jesus are you talking about?
    I'm going to assume that you are well aware of all the arguments against Christianity, and I will assume that you understand that all of the proponents that argue in favor of Christianity are biased in their arguments as they are of mostly a Christian perspective, and to that end, those that oppose Christianity are of a different faith or religion, or an atheist.

    Now I understand that you can not refute anything that is in the Christian Bible, as you appear to be Christian, for if you did you would no longer be considered a Christian. For the rest of us that aren't of the Christian faith, we are free to interpret the Bible as we want. The historical Jesus I'm referring to is the man that walked the towns and cities of Judea and Galilee teaching and preaching his version of Judaism, he was most likely executed for disobeying Jewish law and for creating hostility between the Jewish People and the Roman Empire, as were many others that claimed to be the messiah. There was nothing special about this man, other than when he spoke, he spoke in a manner that was different and inviting to the people that were considered less then worthy by the high priests of the time. This historical Jesus attained God-consciousness and wanted everyone that he came into contact with to understand and realize that they could achieve this same state of consciousness. This man did not perform miracles, at least, not miracles as we understand them today. I believe that the miracles that are described in the New Testament, as well as the miracles in the Hebrew Torah, can be explained without using the word miracle, and to that point, the miraculous events are most likely exaggerations of normal events that took place.

    We understand that the earliest date that theologians and scholars attribute the authorship of the first synoptic gospel is around 60 CE. I'm sure that you realize that this first gospel was written during a time of great persecution of the followers that believed Jesus was the messiah, and that even the most devout followers were beginning to doubt if he was going to return, as he stated he would during their generation. This gave the authors that revised the first synoptic gospels even more reason to add to the legend that the early followers had created. So in order to establish itself as the fulfillment of a prophecy from the Torah, they created a God man/Divine Jesus, this is the Jesus that performed miracles.

    I would presume that I would need to present evidence, and I could list atheist and spiritual authors who have written and spoken about the subject. But I would point to the Bible itself as evidence, I mean after all it is just a book that is deemed inspired by God. The foundation of Christianity is a book with a divine human as its central figure, as is the same of most religions. The possibility exists that Christians could be converted to other religions and the Christian Bible destroyed, in which case the Christian religion would be forgotten, I realize that this isn't likely to happen, but the possibility exists. If this is the case, why believe in Christianity?

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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by AXIOM View Post
    This historical Jesus attained God-consciousness and wanted everyone that he came into contact with to understand and realize that they could achieve this same state of consciousness.
    Where you do get that interpretation from?
    Quote Originally Posted by AXIOM View Post
    We understand that the earliest date that theologians and scholars attribute the authorship of the first synoptic gospel is around 60 CE.
    Such as?

    Quote Originally Posted by AXIOM View Post
    I'm sure that you realize that this first gospel was written during a time of great persecution of the followers that believed Jesus was the messiah, and that even the most devout followers were beginning to doubt if he was going to return, as he stated he would during their generation.
    I didn't realize it. Where's the evidence to suggest it?

    Quote Originally Posted by AXIOM View Post
    This gave the authors that revised the first synoptic gospels even more reason to add to the legend that the early followers had created. So in order to establish itself as the fulfillment of a prophecy from the Torah, they created a God man/Divine Jesus, this is the Jesus that performed miracles.
    Is there any support for that position?
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    It has just occurred to me....if there is no God, why are there so many believers? If free-will and doubt are allowed to exist, then there will always be a large number of detractors, regardless of the truth. The nature of humanity is that it is not necessarily interested in the truth, but in what suits it.
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    It has just occurred to me....if there is no God, why are there so many believers? If free-will and doubt are allowed to exist, then there will always be a large number of detractors, regardless of the truth. The nature of humanity is that it is not necessarily interested in the truth, but in what suits it.
    Because people are superstitious, and want to believe. That doesn't mean what we want to believe in is real. Some people believe in Santa, Vishnu, Shiva, or that Sylvia Brown really could talk to dead people. People will believe some really dumb stuff.

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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Because people are superstitious, and want to believe. That doesn't mean what we want to believe in is real. Some people believe in Santa, Vishnu, Shiva, or that Sylvia Brown really could talk to dead people. People will believe some really dumb stuff.
    I see you missed my point entirely. Congrats.
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    I see you missed my point entirely. Congrats.
    Explain it differently.

    I agree most people aren't interested in truth. Most people are interested in living day to day, and don't think at all.

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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Explain it differently.

    I agree most people aren't interested in truth. Most people are interested in living day to day, and don't think at all.
    Then if atheism is true, many will not believe and if Christianity is true, then many will not believe. That people do not believe the truth should be expected regardless of what is the truth and thus the presence of unbelievers is irrelevant.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    Then if atheism is true, many will not believe and if Christianity is true, then many will not believe. That people do not believe the truth should be expected regardless of what is the truth and thus the presence of unbelievers is irrelevant.
    In respect to Christianity I disagree, while I think your reasoning is sound for most other topics. Christianity posits an active God that will torture you for not believing. So one would think that if the Christian premise of God loves you is true than he would make himself known so people don't get confused and not believe due to lack of evidence. God loves you, but will torture you for believing in him even though he isn't anywhere to be found.

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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    In respect to Christianity I disagree, while I think your reasoning is sound for most other topics. Christianity posits an active God that will torture you for not believing.
    Is that what atheism believes?


    So one would think that if the Christian premise of God loves you is true than he would make himself known so people don't get confused and not believe due to lack of evidence.
    Actually, at its core, Christianity is much more fundamental.

    A. God loves his creation.
    B. If man can't observe the Spirit through his creation which is naturally everywhere, man has an option. [No, it's not by purchasing Google eyeglasses )
    C. Get to know him -- intimately.
    D. God by default is approachable.
    E. Knowing God removes all confusion.

    God loves you, but will torture you for believing in him even though he isn't anywhere to be found.
    Where does atheism get this stuff?
    Last edited by eye4magic; December 19th, 2013 at 03:01 PM.
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Is that what atheism believes?



    Actually, at its core, Christianity is much more fundamental.

    A. God loves his creation.
    B. If man can't observe the Spirit through his creation which is naturally everywhere, man has an option. [No, it's not by purchasing Google eyeglasses )
    C. Get to know him -- intimately.
    D. God by default is approachable.
    E. Knowing God removes all confusion.


    Where does atheism get his stuff?
    If that were true we would see evidence, but instead we see the opposite. That the rules are very different based on denomination and other factors. They fight and even kill over them.

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    If that were true we would see evidence, but instead we see the opposite.
    Evidence is not the problem but often cited. It’s really an excuse. I think most atheists don’t even have a criteria for what evidence of God would be because they won’t even define or develop a working definition for the subject of the evidence they are seeking.
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