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  1. #901
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Evidence is not the problem but often cited. It’s really an excuse. I think most atheists don’t even have a criteria for what evidence of God would be because they won’t even define or develop a working definition for the subject of the evidence they are seeking.
    What is the evidence?

  2. #902
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    What is the evidence?
    What is the criteria for evidence and what is the definition of what you want evidence for?
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  3. #903
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What is the criteria for evidence and what is the definition of what you want evidence for?
    I would accept seeing a real miracle healing. Like a burn victim, Amputee Someone with Retardation being healed.

  4. #904
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I would accept seeing a real miracle healing.
    There are miracle healings that happen all over the world, often and have for centuries. Most atheists reject these because such events don't meet an undefined criteria with no definition for the subject matter.

    A miracle healing will not prove God to a mind that does not want to believe. A hundred alternatives will be justified.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  5. #905
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    There are miracle healings that happen all over the world, often and have for centuries. Most atheists reject these because such events don't meet an undefined criteria with no definition for the subject matter.

    A miracle healing will not prove God to a mind that does not want to believe. A hundred alternatives will be justified.
    They are all fake. I have seen plenty never something last me a burn victim.

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

  6. #906
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    They are all fake.
    Of course they are.

    Define what you want evidence for -- start there.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  7. #907
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    In respect to Christianity I disagree, while I think your reasoning is sound for most other topics. Christianity posits an active God that will torture you for not believing. So one would think that if the Christian premise of God loves you is true than he would make himself known so people don't get confused and not believe due to lack of evidence. God loves you, but will torture you for believing in him even though he isn't anywhere to be found.
    Christianity posits that God has made Himself known and that people still chose to reject Him. What you are saying is that if there was evidence, then there would be no unbelievers, reality says otherwise. There is overwhelming evidence for the holocaust, but there are many holocaust deniers....one is even president of Iran. The reality of human nature is that mankind will never agree in full and there will always be a significant number of people who reject the truth.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  8. #908
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Of course they are.

    Define what you want evidence for -- start there.
    I want to see someone regrow a limb or skin or half a brain something that doesn't happen on its own. no cured of migraine type stuff.

  9. #909
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I want to see someone regrow a limb or skin or half a brain something that doesn't happen on its own. no cured of migraine type stuff.
    WHY would that be evidence for God to you?
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  10. #910
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    Christianity posits that God has made Himself known and that people still chose to reject Him. What you are saying is that if there was evidence, then there would be no unbelievers, reality says otherwise. There is overwhelming evidence for the holocaust, but there are many holocaust deniers....one is even president of Iran. The reality of human nature is that mankind will never agree in full and there will always be a significant number of people who reject the truth.
    Maybe he made himself know thousands of years ago, but I have seen no real evidence in my lifetime. He doesn't make himself known in the present tense.

    ---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    WHY would that be evidence for God to you?
    Well. Say someone prays to a specific God for a specific thing that doesn't just occur naturally. Then if that bizarre or natural thing happens that is pretty strong evidence. Of course even better would be God just talking directly to the whole world at the same time.

  11. #911
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Well. Say someone prays to a specific God for a specific thing that doesn't just occur naturally. Then if that bizarre or natural thing happens that is pretty strong evidence. Of course even better would be God just talking directly to the whole world at the same time.
    You're not getting what I'm saying. I'm not asking HOW that counts as evidence. But WHY it counts as evidence. WHY would you see that as evidence. Consider the scenario logically. Let's examine a regrown limb, for instance. Say you have a friend who believes in a deity (Captain God). He prays to Captain God regrow JUST the tip of his middle finger. Not the entire finger. But literally just the tip. (Intermission here: I specify just the tip so we can both avoid reptilian DNA leading to regrown limbs). It happens. And not over a week or so, but instantaneously.

    So we examine the facts here. The tip of his middle regrew instantaneously after praying to Captain God. Would that automatically count as evidence for Captain God? Or would you want to examine the situation further? See what his diet and medical history looked like (maybe he's a non-reptilian freak like Hugh Jackman)? Maybe his family's medical history (maybe his dad his Hugh Jackman)? If you rule out those, then where do you go with it? Count it as evidence for Captain God? Or maybe it's a new, totally natural phenomena that we can't quite explain?

    The reason WHY you would consider it evidence for God is important because in that scenario, if it were REAL and REALLY happened. It may convince YOU, but another atheist on board (or someone you know in real life) might say exactly what a lot of atheists say to theists, "You can't explain it...so God did it? Way-to-go God-of-gaps. You win again." <-- you have to say it again, but this time as sarcastically as possible (sarcastic like Dr. Cox sarcastic, not sarcastic like Dr. House sarcastic).
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  12. #912
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    You're not getting what I'm saying. I'm not asking HOW that counts as evidence. But WHY it counts as evidence. WHY would you see that as evidence. Consider the scenario logically. Let's examine a regrown limb, for instance. Say you have a friend who believes in a deity (Captain God). He prays to Captain God regrow JUST the tip of his middle finger. Not the entire finger. But literally just the tip. (Intermission here: I specify just the tip so we can both avoid reptilian DNA leading to regrown limbs). It happens. And not over a week or so, but instantaneously.

    So we examine the facts here. The tip of his middle regrew instantaneously after praying to Captain God. Would that automatically count as evidence for Captain God? Or would you want to examine the situation further? See what his diet and medical history looked like (maybe he's a non-reptilian freak like Hugh Jackman)? Maybe his family's medical history (maybe his dad his Hugh Jackman)? If you rule out those, then where do you go with it? Count it as evidence for Captain God? Or maybe it's a new, totally natural phenomena that we can't quite explain?

    The reason WHY you would consider it evidence for God is important because in that scenario, if it were REAL and REALLY happened. It may convince YOU, but another atheist on board (or someone you know in real life) might say exactly what a lot of atheists say to theists, "You can't explain it...so God did it? Way-to-go God-of-gaps. You win again." <-- you have to say it again, but this time as sarcastically as possible (sarcastic like Dr. Cox sarcastic, not sarcastic like Dr. House sarcastic).

    I can't say if it would convince me with just the tip. That would seem rather anticlimactic for Captain God. I can't say what exactly would convince me. I can say what I would find compelling. Like say God talking to all humans simultaneously. Or The a mentally Retarded person Praying to Captain God and becoming non mentally retarded instantaneously. Those would be compelling. I have been to many faith healings and seen nothing like that so. I would have to take a serious look if that stuff happened.

  13. #913
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Maybe he made himself know thousands of years ago, but I have seen no real evidence in my lifetime. He doesn't make himself known in the present tense.
    And maybe like the holocaust deniers, you simply deny the evidence in front of you.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  14. #914
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    And maybe like the holocaust deniers, you simply deny the evidence in front of you.
    Such as?

  15. #915
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Such as?
    There are an abundance of arguments for the existence of God and thousands of claimed miracles. There are also historical claims of revelation. All of these are ultimately beyond the scope of this thread and your personal rejection of the concept and any attempt to prove to you otherwise is also off-topic. Remember, that the entire debate here is that why would there be non-believers if God exists. All that needs to be done to answer this question is to show that one should expect non-believers even if God really exists. The holocaust really happened and there are many non-believers. There is abundant undeniable evidence for it, which all these people reject. So why would any amount of evidence for God matter? There would still be non-believers just as there are holocaust deniers. The existence of non-believers therefore has no bearing on the truth of anything.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  16. #916
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I can't say what exactly would convince me.
    That's why it's not really about evidence. The evidence is abundant. Personally, I think one big issue with the non-believer is one of labeling and definitions or lack there off.

    I can say what I would find compelling. Like say God talking to all humans simultaneously.
    That's not really that compelling if you think about it, because each one will hear God's voice, as they do now, slightly differently through the lens of their culture and faith.

    What's actually more compelling is when we experience God talking to us --personally. Once we come to know God, the outer details are just that -- details.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  17. #917
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    There are an abundance of arguments for the existence of God and thousands of claimed miracles. There are also historical claims of revelation. All of these are ultimately beyond the scope of this thread and your personal rejection of the concept and any attempt to prove to you otherwise is also off-topic. Remember, that the entire debate here is that why would there be non-believers if God exists. All that needs to be done to answer this question is to show that one should expect non-believers even if God really exists. The holocaust really happened and there are many non-believers. There is abundant undeniable evidence for it, which all these people reject. So why would any amount of evidence for God matter? There would still be non-believers just as there are holocaust deniers. The existence of non-believers therefore has no bearing on the truth of anything.
    If The Christian God exists the question of evidence and belief is right on topic. There is no reason to believe in something with no evidence. So if the Christian God wants us to believe he should prove it.

    I know I have never seen a talking donkey or snake. No miracle healing. Why are they all male? Maybe he could explain why that is. All sorts of stuff could persuade.

  18. #918
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    If Why are they all male?
    Why is who all male?
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  19. #919
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I can't say if it would convince me with just the tip. That would seem rather anticlimactic for Captain God.
    So an instantaneously appearing, perfectly forming finger tip wouldn't be convincing...because it seems anticlimactic? This, I think, is part of the problem E4M and I are pointing out. You mentioned spontaneous limb growth as a potential point of evidence. I put some constraints and now it doesn't seem as convincing.

    So if, for instance, Captain God (your finger-tip friend's deity) were to speak to you, along with everyone else on the planet simultaneously, but did so in Elvish, specifically the dialect of the elves from Lothlorien, would that be convincing? Or seem odd and less convincing?

    Remember the underlying factors here. In the limb growth instance, you responded to an instance of literal, spontaneous limb growth with doubt and no solid logical reasoning for doing so. Your explicit reasoning for not seeing it as definitively compelling is because it didn't meet an unnamed arbitrary standard you've set for a deity you don't believe in to demonstrate its existence. In the second example, wherein Captain God is speaking to the world, we're applying a similarly specific, intentionally anti-climactic constraint.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I would have to take a serious look if that stuff happened.
    Consider, for a moment, what would be compelling to you personally. Personal issues, financial issues, friend or family that needs help, whatever. But something decidedly personal to YOU, that His intervention in would be compelling evidence to you of His existence.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  20. #920
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    Re: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why is who all male?
    The Christian Gods.

    ---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    So an instantaneously appearing, perfectly forming finger tip wouldn't be convincing...because it seems anticlimactic? This, I think, is part of the problem E4M and I are pointing out. You mentioned spontaneous limb growth as a potential point of evidence. I put some constraints and now it doesn't seem as convincing.

    So if, for instance, Captain God (your finger-tip friend's deity) were to speak to you, along with everyone else on the planet simultaneously, but did so in Elvish, specifically the dialect of the elves from Lothlorien, would that be convincing? Or seem odd and less convincing?

    Remember the underlying factors here. In the limb growth instance, you responded to an instance of literal, spontaneous limb growth with doubt and no solid logical reasoning for doing so. Your explicit reasoning for not seeing it as definitively compelling is because it didn't meet an unnamed arbitrary standard you've set for a deity you don't believe in to demonstrate its existence. In the second example, wherein Captain God is speaking to the world, we're applying a similarly specific, intentionally anti-climactic constraint.

    Consider, for a moment, what would be compelling to you personally. Personal issues, financial issues, friend or family that needs help, whatever. But something decidedly personal to YOU, that His intervention in would be compelling evidence to you of His existence.
    I would find it compelling and as I said I would have to be there, but the tip of a finger isn't as compelling as a leg or an arm. The fact remains we don't see any miracles.

 

 
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