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  1. #61
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    A negative tone is set when using words like "puke" and "wretch" in an OP...
    No flies on you!
    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    ...and gives, at least to me, you are really not willing to discuss this at all.
    yeah...that's why I didn't ask for someone to argue with me, and why I never responded to anything anyone said. Oh, wait...
    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    ...You obviously see something wrong with Obama's bow, but have yet to point to any formal standard or protocol that would suggest a bow to the Emperor is a signal of subservience.
    Where is the rule that protocols or standards must be written and published? If you say "no where", you win the booby prize. Protocols are 99% customs. And customs, by definition, are not codified.

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    Really? So belittle any other cultures and custom in the name of equality? Would you like to tell the men and women that were imported from Africa that they were "equal"? Or perhaps you would like to tell the Japanese-American citizens that they were equal during World War II? Are we, the United States not only the gold standard for equality, but for culture and custom as well?
    Mindless drivel.
    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    I don't recall such objections when President Bush walked around holding the Saudi Prince's hand. Why would he do that? Shouldn't, then, all President's hold the hands of Princes and such when they come to the United States? Sounds quite ridiculous doesn't it. I suspect that the President was holding the Prince's hand so that the Prince may walk more easily. So Bush was regulated to the role of servant in that instance. Or would you have me believe that it is custom to hold hands?
    Start a thread on that if you like. But it has nothing to do with bowing to royalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    Sigfried hit the nail one the head. He addressed the elephant in the forum quite admirably.
    He attacked the person instead of the argument. And he basically said that Obama can do no wrong, because Obama has a big enough ego to carry the day. Cheap and vapid argumentation from an Obama apologist.

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    I feel that what makes us look weak is all this divisiveness the Right has to espouse each time Obama does something "controversial". United we stand; divided we fall. Why would or should anyone take the Right seriously when these are the types of insubstantial issues they raise? You try to bring our President down in front of the world...perhaps you would prefer that he to bow to you and kiss your equal ass in the process.
    Rigggghhhtt. Typical liberal Obamaniac slobbering. If everyone agreed with you libs, or at least shut up, life would be so much better. Wow. What a compelling opinion.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #62
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So because some of us think the issue is worth discussing, that makes us insecure and weak? I thought that the other posts about not caring were inappropriate, but was told that hey, its not a debate forum. Now it appears that flames are not only okay, but are actually applauded by others.
    I can't say they should be applauded but I'm not surprised. It wasn't meant as a flame but a critique... I know the difference is a fine line if any line at all. It is how I feel about it and what I observe in other people. As I am fond of saying "the caged dog barks the loudest". Meaning those with the least position do the most posturing.

    It really does bug me.. this whole "he disrespected our nation by showing them respect" attitude. It's juvenile in my opinion. And it is very much my opinion rather than any statement of fact. And if others share it they can acknowledge me. Not because they like flames but because they simply feel the same way.

    My mistake for putting the thread here in the MC News forum. Next time I'll post in a debate forum so that mods can delete non-contributory and derogatory posts, especially those that don't even bother to debate the issue, but choose instead to make personal attacks on participating ODN members.
    Is it really not appropriate to comment about the attitude that someone has? Their philosophy of what is or is not becoming behavior? Is that something that is a provable fact? I value strength, and I see complaining about shows of strength as being an act of weakness. That is the very topic of discussion, or at least most of it. The OP was filled with the same kind of judgement making and opinion as my post was.

    You simply took it personally. If you think the shoe fits, then wear it. If not then tell me why it doesn't.

    I think it is worth discussing, but more as a question of human nature than one of politics and the worth of the president.

  3. #63
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    God.

    Why do people give a sh!t about this? It's not like he's some stupid hillbilly giving the German Prime Minister an inappropriate back rub, or letting the S-word slip in front of the British Primer Minister (or speaking with his mouth full)...

    Ah, the things we get up in arms over...

  4. #64
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    As I am fond of saying "the caged dog barks the loudest". Meaning those with the least position do the most posturing..
    Which may explain why you've made no substantive argument at all, but choose to make snide remarks about ODN posters. Go look in the mirror to find the one who is being pissy and criticizing others without contributing to the debate. If you think that complaints and criticisms equal juvenile weakness, then go put on those shoes yourself.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #65
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Where is the rule that protocols or standards must be written and published? If you say "no where", you win the booby prize. Protocols are 99% customs. And customs, by definition, are not codified.
    You are critiquing Obama with the implication that he has done something wrong or weak. To what standard is your opinion based on. Personal? Why should I accept your opinion over my own or anyone else's?

    Mindless drivel.
    Start a thread on that if you like. But it has nothing to do with bowing to royalty.
    Your point, I thought, was that bowing was a sign of weakness. Is that not correct? Why are you so confused? Obama bowed out of respect to a powerless royalty - so what? Japan doesn't magically inherit the U.S. now.

    He attacked the person instead of the argument. And he basically said that Obama can do no wrong, because Obama has a big enough ego to carry the day. Cheap and vapid argumentation from an Obama apologist.
    Where did anyone say that Obama can do no wrong? And actually, Obama is more about id and less about ego - he need not make others feel small to make himself feel important. And because of this type of attitude, the United States was able to secure $5 billion from Japan towards Afghanistan.

    Wow. What a compelling opinion.
    Thanks. Too bad I am not compelled by yours.

    Personally, I believe Axelrod and Obama sat around and contemplated what could make the Right's collective head explode. And with a comfortable sigh and laugh, they are saying "Boy, that was easy!" I think it's kind of funny.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  6. #66

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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Which may explain why you've made no substantive argument at all, but choose to make snide remarks about ODN posters. Go look in the mirror to find the one who is being pissy and criticizing others without contributing to the debate. If you think that complaints and criticisms equal juvenile weakness, then go put on those shoes yourself.
    It's not that complaints and criticisms are juvenile weaknesses, its what you're complaining about. Listen to yourself. He showed another nation respect, and you're complaining, despite the fact that there were plenty of other reasons for him to bow as low as he did (its a tradition, bowing is respectful, the guy's older than he is,) which you really skim over. The people who commented on Cutti's video are quibbling over bow angles, as if the Japanese Emperor had a guy with a protractor standing off camera to measure exactly how much ass-kissing Obama was doing, (as if 73 degrees is fine, but 72 is suddenly unabashed obsequiousness.) It would almost be funny if people weren't taking it so seriously. I don't read Japanese, but I don't think the Japanese newspapers are gleefully gloating over how they have America at their beck and call like a lapdog. It was a minor incident. The Japanese probably forgot about it by now. But not us, oh, no. We have to measure the exact bow angle and count the number of bows made. Also, did you read Sig's post?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig
    One of my least favorite attitudes.

    Personally I feel that people who give two shits about this kind of thing are insecure and weak. For them the whole world is a big pissing contest and whichever dog barks the loudest is the winner of the machismo award. Its like gang bangers and the biggest gold chain or fanciest ride etc...

    People of real strength don't demean themselves by showing respect and deference to others when it is kind or generous to do so. The only time a defense is needed is when you are being attacked. At all other times you treat people as friends. Only when an enemy is proven do you treat them as such, and even then to resort to posturing only shows you fear them.

    A real badass walks among his enemies like he hasn't a care in the world. A true man can bow to an emperor an not be at all diminished. Only those who are insecure and unsure of themselves or their nations prowess would feel lessened by something like this.

    Obama is a man with a good deal of mastery of his fear and it shows in his easy going manner and willingness to treat others with the respect he wishes to show them without any concern for what others with less courage will think of it.
    I know the first part of it wasn't exactly flattering, but the parts I bolded basically say that showing respect is not a sign of weakness. It says that America doesn't need to browbeat every nation into submissiveness. How is this not an argument? Do you seriously think that this will cause such damage to America's public image that we'll perpetually be the laughingstock of the world? Seriously?

  7. #67
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    It's not like he's some stupid hillbilly giving the German Prime Minister an inappropriate back rub
    I could go for an inappropriate back rub about now...

    Glad this isn't a debate forum or this post would be spam.

  8. #68
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I could go for an inappropriate back rub about now...

    Glad this isn't a debate forum or this post would be spam.
    Indeed. I choose my rants very carefully.

  9. #69
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Look, is this something that I lose sleep over? Of course not.

    But it's mildly irritating for a couple of reasons. Our country has a long history that our leaders do not bow to other leaders.

    When Obama did this before the Saudi leader, many of my right-of-center brethren attacked him on ODN. I actually defended him. I thought it was merely an oversight by his protocol advisors. To be honest, I believe that this is the same thing, but I won't defend him this time.

    It's time for him to get his ducks in order and start acting like he's the President and not a junior senator who's awestruck by the cool people he gets to meet.

  10. #70
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by cds69 View Post
    But it's mildly irritating for a couple of reasons. Our country has a long history that our leaders do not bow to other leaders.
    What exactly is the Japanese Emperor leader of? What power does he have?
    It's time for him to get his ducks in order and start acting like he's the President and not a junior senator who's awestruck by the cool people he gets to meet.
    Please provide evidence that Obama was "awestruck"? He certainly doesn't appear awestruck in the video.

    And I will ask you the same as I have asked others: What is the standard or protocol, historic or otherwise, that you base your opinion on that this somehow weakens America? I can find no definitive rationalization for the bow either way. Therefore, I believe, in the positive rather than the negative, that Obama was simply being respectful. In no way was his intention, nor the outcome, was an expression of subservience or weakness.

    Let's take a look at the video, shall we:



    The still photo simply exaggerates what the reality was - a quick bow to show respect, which is what the bow means in Japan. Business people do it all time, well, at least that's the stereotype. Oh *gasp*, I believe he western-style shook hands with then Empress...taboo! (I think I read that somewhere along the line).

    And to anyone: What can Obama do to rectify this in your minds? Resign perhaps?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
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  11. #71
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    What exactly is the Japanese Emperor leader of? What power does he have?
    The Japanese Emperor, while having no official political authority, is the highest authority of the Shinto religion, and is also the "symbol of the state and the unity of the people".

    Please provide evidence that Obama was "awestruck"? He certainly doesn't appear awestruck in the video.
    The man bowed not once, but seven times.

    And I will ask you the same as I have asked others: What is the standard or protocol, historic or otherwise, that you base your opinion on that this somehow weakens America? I can find no definitive rationalization for the bow either way. Therefore, I believe, in the positive rather than the negative, that Obama was simply being respectful. In no way was his intention, nor the outcome, was an expression of subservience or weakness.
    I never contended that the bow was an "expression of subservience or weakness".

    Let's take a look at the video, shall we:
    I did, and as I already noted, in addition to his DEEP initial bow, he bowed six more times.

    The still photo simply exaggerates what the reality was - a quick bow to show respect, which is what the bow means in Japan. Business people do it all time, well, at least that's the stereotype. Oh *gasp*, I believe he western-style shook hands with then Empress...taboo! (I think I read that somewhere along the line).
    The bow in Japanese culture is a very complex custom. For this reason alone Obama should have offered a brief, shallow bow, not more than a nod of the head and then extended his hand. In Japanese culture disparities between the depth and duration of each person's bow is in direct proportion to the disparity of their class or station.

    I agree with you that Obama's bow was nothing more than a sign of respect. I have no problem with my President respecting other leaders of the world (be they political or social leaders) as well he should.

    But the hard fact is that perception is reality when it comes to politics, and many Americans don't want their President bowing to other leaders. The frustrating part is that Obama didn't learn a lesson. Honoring the customs when meeting other leaders is fine, but not when it comes to this... Think about it. What would have happened if JFK had kissed the Pope's ring?

    Anyway, as I've said before, it's only mildly irritating.

    And to anyone: What can Obama do to rectify this in your minds? Resign perhaps?
    I admit that I haven't read each and every post carefully, but I don't remember anyone calling for his resignation over a bow.

    Rectifying this should be simple... don't do it again. Do what most good leaders do, surround yourself with people who will guide you in the right direction and give you the best advice. I think somewhere along the lines someone in his administration needs to be replaced.

  12. #72
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by cds69 View Post
    I never contended that the bow was an "expression of subservience or weakness".
    So what exactly is your problem with his bow? The technicalities of it?

    ---------- Post added at 10:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cds69 View Post
    I agree with you that Obama's bow was nothing more than a sign of respect. I have no problem with my President respecting other leaders of the world (be they political or social leaders) as well he should.
    Ok...
    But the hard fact is that perception is reality when it comes to politics, and many Americans don't want their President bowing to other leaders.
    To me, you are implying should base his decisions and actions on the political ramifications. Is that what you are saying? And exactly how many is many?
    The frustrating part is that Obama didn't learn a lesson. Honoring the customs when meeting other leaders is fine, but not when it comes to this... Think about it. What would have happened if JFK had kissed the Pope's ring?
    How do you know he didn't learn a lesson? How do you know he didn't do any research? I have yet to see anyone objecting to the bow point to an objective standard.

    Anyway, as I've said before, it's only mildly irritating.
    Why is it irritating at all? I don't find it irritating the Bush held the Saudi Prince's hand. There was no national or international uproar over that incident. Why should there be over this one? What I find irritating is the Right's insistence on trying turn a sign of respect to an international gaffe.

    I admit that I haven't read each and every post carefully, but I don't remember anyone calling for his resignation over a bow.
    Right...I was being a bit extreme.

    Rectifying this should be simple... don't do it again. Do what most good leaders do, surround yourself with people who will guide you in the right direction and give you the best advice. I think somewhere along the lines someone in his administration needs to be replaced.
    By saying "don't do it again" you are suggesting there was something wrong with what he did. You or anyone else have yet to point out what the President did wrong, other than the political ramifications back home. Is that how you want our President to make his decisions, politically?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
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  13. #73
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Trump doesn't stand for Buzz Aldrin


    Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #74
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    @Cowboy Nobody cares.
    To serve man.

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  16. #75
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @Cowboy Nobody cares.
    You're wrong:

    Apollo 11 anniversary: Trump criticised for sitting on his ‘throne’ while meeting Aldrin, Collins
    Some users pointed out that Aldrin was very uncomfortable and kept sighing while standing next to Trump. At one point, he was photographed with a clenched fist. Meanwhile, others slammed POTUS for not standing up to greet the legends.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #76
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    You're wrong:
    O, some people are trying to make it into a big deal.
    but it isn't an actual thing, and nobody really cares about it.
    there is no written code, and no etiquette that requires a president to stand when he is visited by people.

    And despite the spin the link you provide wants to put on it.. Aldrin seemed to be o.k. with the exchange. Even beyond that, watching the clip (in the link you provided) everyone is standing except the president, and not a peep of him disrespecting other people he was speaking too.

    This is not a thing, this is political spin and fake news at it's finest. Aldrin did seem to need to sit down though.
    To serve man.

  18. #77
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    Re: Obama Bows to Japanese Emperor

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    and nobody really cares about it.
    That's already been rebutted.

    Neither is it fake, it happened, just like Obama bowing happened. Unless you are suggesting that that was fake news as well.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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