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  1. #41
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by seawa123 View Post
    You're giving the Bible credit for everything. If your god really exists, why did he only have the Bible in one part of the world? I'm talking about way, way back then? Why wasn't there a Bible in China or India? Because they have their own Gods. You Christian are a bunch of liars! STOP LYING TO YOURSELVES!
    Are you related to Sam Kinison by chance?
    anything could be an illusion and we wouldn't know the difference... proof schmoof...

  2. #42
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by seawa123 View Post
    You're giving the Bible credit for everything.
    I've not given the Bible credit for anything here. Where specifically in any of my posts have I done such a thing, and what specifically did I give credit to?

    If your god really exists, why did he only have the Bible in one part of the world? I'm talking about way, way back then? Why wasn't there a Bible in China or India? Because they have their own Gods. You Christian are a bunch of liars! STOP LYING TO YOURSELVES!
    Relevancy?
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; March 16th, 2007 at 03:52 PM.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    I applaud seawa123's boldness, and think it's very relevant.

    You have those who haven't heard of Christ, and then you have those who knew about Buddha, Shiva, Mohammed, etc.

    So, I'm guessing that you'll just throw the 'false idols' blanket over that lot? Or if they still don't know Christ, will they be forgiven anyway?

    What's ironic is that followers of other religions that teach damnation and false idols would have exactly the same argument as you Christians.
    "What's so wrong about mentioning how attractive she is? That said, i don't think "Begin East Euro Fap" is an appropriate way to say shes attractive."

  4. #44
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    I had too many windows open at the time...got confused as to which thread we were in.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  5. #45
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    rite. but i still would like a response
    "What's so wrong about mentioning how attractive she is? That said, i don't think "Begin East Euro Fap" is an appropriate way to say shes attractive."

  6. #46
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by seawa123 View Post
    You're giving the Bible credit for everything. If your god really exists, why did he only have the Bible in one part of the world? I'm talking about way, way back then? Why wasn't there a Bible in China or India? Because they have their own Gods. You Christian are a bunch of liars! STOP LYING TO YOURSELVES!
    Thus the need for the Book of Mormon... another testament of Jesus Christ from another land. You atheists keep giving me these perfect segues into the LDS faith.

    So, seattlewashington, you should revise your pithy statement to either read "Most of you Christians are a bunch of liars!" or "You Christians are a bunch of liars while the Mormons aren't Christian but they're not liars!"
    anything could be an illusion and we wouldn't know the difference... proof schmoof...

  7. #47
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanadu Moo View Post
    So, seattlewashington, you should revise your pithy statement to either read "Most of you Christians are a bunch of liars!" or "You Christians are a bunch of liars while the Mormons aren't Christian but they're not liars!"
    Hey, if the Christians don't want you in their little club, why fret over it? I mean really, is it that great of a club anyway?

  8. #48
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Rom. 14-16 speaks to this subject somewhat...

  9. #49
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    csage, care to elaborate?
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


  10. #50
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    this scripture states that even sequestered peoples have an innate knowledge of right and wrong and that knowledge does come from God. a few verses later it also says "all have fallen short of the glory of God" but falling short of the Glory is not necessarily damnable...the gospel does bind those that have heard it."to whom much has been given, much is required" it's the rejection of a gesture from God offering redemption of a life that even in the best cases is either a self absorbed endeavor or pridefully altruistic that denotes a recalcitrant streak God would arguably have an issue with over the course of eternity.
    Last edited by csage; October 22nd, 2008 at 12:40 PM.

  11. #51
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    In summary...those who have not heard of Christ, will be judged differently than those who have. They do not by default, become damned. That is absurd, illogical, unethical, unjust...the very things that God cannot be.
    Of course that reminds me of the story of the missionary and the native.

    A missionary meets a native who's never heard of Christ so the missionary tells the native all about him. The native asks the missionary "So what happens if I don't accept Christ?"

    "You go to Hell." Says the missionary.

    The native replies "But would God send someone to Hell who's never heard of Christ?"

    "Of course not. That would be unfair."

    "Well, then why did you tell me about Christ? Now I'm at risk of going to Hell."
    Last edited by mican333; October 22nd, 2008 at 07:01 PM.

  12. #52
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Which does nothing to answer the question of "Would a knowing atheist if wrong go to that hell, even if he lived an honorable life"? (otherwise the above is just more bible talk to me...)...............:O)
    I'm sorry if you have been kept in the dark for a while. But, according to the basis of Christianity, living an honorable life has no influence at all on one's ability to get into heaven. It's not as if God holds a scale that holds all your good works on one side and all your sins on the other, and then measures the two sides to see if the good outweighs the bad. No. As soon as the first sin is committed, that person is immediately doomed to eternal damnation. Nothing that he or she can do can get them out of that. However, about 2000 years ago, God sent his only son, Jesus, to take all of our eternal punishment upon himself and to give us His own eternal glory at the right hand of God. But there is a catch, albeit a very small one. One must simply trust that Jesus' sacrifice was adequate to take the place of his or her sin and believe that Jesus will stand before the Father on judgment day and vouch for that person.

    This is what sets Christianity apart from the religions of this world. Other religions stress "living an honorable life" or doing good deeds. Christianity, however, is merely a matter of acceptance.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    In summary...those who have not heard of Christ, will be judged differently than those who have. They do not by default, become damned. That is absurd, illogical, unethical, unjust...the very things that God cannot be.
    I think here is some biblical proof against what you said.

    Romans 3 : 10b-20

    "There is no one righteous, not even one;
    11there is no one who understands,
    no one who seeks God.
    " 12All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one."
    13"Their throats are open graves;
    their tongues practice deceit."
    "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
    14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
    15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    16ruin and misery mark their ways,
    17and the way of peace they do not know."
    18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

    19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

    This says that everyone deserves death. EVERYONE. Not just those who have heard the gospel.

    This passage may be even more convincing:

    Romans 2:12
    "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law."

    These people who are apart from the law include those who have never been witnessed to.

    Then yet another Romans reference:

    Romans 1:20
    "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

    This says that all sinners are without excuse, because they see God's work in creation.

    However, I think your argument was very well presented.
    Last edited by Rawkhard; November 10th, 2008 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    Use all of your gifts for God's glory.

  13. #53
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Apok, would an atheist be considered someone who's never heard of God, after all, I am sure that if any atheist had a sufficiently intense "godly" experience, they would believe in him, or is your "hearing" only limited to knowing about the christian church or knowing the bible exists? On the same note, if someone hasn't heard of God, who's fault would that be??

  14. #54
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Of course that reminds me of the story of the missionary and the native.

    A missionary meets a native who's never heard of Christ so the missionary tells the native all about him. The native asks the missionary "So what happens if I don't accept Christ?"

    "You go to Hell." Says the missionary.

    The native replies "But would God send someone to Hell who's never heard of Christ?"

    "Of course not. That would be unfair."

    "Well, then why did you tell me about Christ? Now I'm at risk of going to Hell."
    Odd story, considering that the native would have been at risk of going to Hell anyway. The Church's teaching is not that all people who haven't heard the Gospel are saved, but that all people, including those who haven't heard the Gospel, have a chance at salvation.

    "Outside the Church there is no salvation"

    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

    847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

    848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338


    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

  15. #55
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Odd story, considering that the native would have been at risk of going to Hell anyway. The Church's teaching is not that all people who haven't heard the Gospel are saved, but that all people, including those who haven't heard the Gospel, have a chance at salvation.
    Thanks for responding.

    So how does it work? How does an African native, who is raised in the spiritual beliefs of his people and never heard of Christ get saved? Let's assume he lives a "Christian" life (is kind, charitable, honest, and so on). So is he saved by the goodness of his heart? When he dies does he get the chance to prove he's worthy? How does he save himself given the circumstances he has no control over (where he is born)?

    And secondly, does he have a much greater chance of not being saved because of where he is born compared to people who are born in Western culture and thus have heard of the gospel?

  16. #56
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Thanks for responding.

    So how does it work?
    Well, I'm not God, but I boldfaced the part which describes how a person who has never heard the Gospel may be saved. It involves seeking God and trying to do His will, as best you know it according to your conscience. God extends His grace to all people and works mysteriously. However, along with this possibility recognized by the Church, is the Church's teaching of Purgatory. It may be presumed that a person who has not heard of Christ, has not been a member of His Church, has not participated in the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Penance, Holy Eucharist, etc., would need to be spiritually purified much more than a faithful member of Christ's Church, before eventually attaining Heaven.

  17. #57
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Well, I'm not God, but I boldfaced the part which describes how a person who has never heard the Gospel may be saved. It involves seeking God and trying to do His will, as best you know it according to your conscience. God extends His grace to all people and works mysteriously. However, along with this possibility recognized by the Church, is the Church's teaching of Purgatory. It may be presumed that a person who has not heard of Christ, has not been a member of His Church, has not participated in the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Penance, Holy Eucharist, etc., would need to be spiritually purified much more than a faithful member of Christ's Church, before eventually attaining Heaven.
    SO let's assume for a moment that someone has never heard of God....how do they seek God out if they have never known of a God?

    I think it's would be rather unloving of God to put people on the Earth in geographical locations to never hear of God at all. They are doomed to hell the second they are born because they will never know to seek out this invisible being that is no where to be found? That's how your God works?

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  18. #58
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Everyone hears about God in life, if not from your parents then from your neighbours or friends. Who hasn't heard of God? It would take a whole society of athiests to make one person not believe in God, and even then they would joke about God themselves.

    One example though is ancient Russia where there was no knowlegde of God or God's held in esteem at all. Why did God not reveal Himself to them? The fact that they never knew a God means that there was no history with God, so, they must be the example here.

    I can't think of a reason that God did not reveal Himslef to them. If the Chinese had gods they would surely have heard of them and made their own gods or adopted them. This is an example of a people that turned away from God and has not been punished on earth. But what happens to the people that did not travel and have sincerely not heard of God? That is similar to juvenile hall, where the people are too young to suffer severe consequences. If they were punished for not hearing of God, what good would that do? WHo punishes people for not hearing of them? Who loves people that have heard of them? Hearing of God is therefore not important, but speaking to God is appreciated. The thing is God can read your mind supposedly so you don;t need o speak to Him, as you are always speaking 'to' Him, through your body langauge and other phonetics.
    !! Servant of Gaia !!

  19. #59
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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlatan View Post
    Everyone hears about God in life, if not from your parents then from your neighbours or friends. Who hasn't heard of God? It would take a whole society of athiests to make one person not believe in God, and even then they would joke about God themselves.

    One example though is ancient Russia where there was no knowlegde of God or God's held in esteem at all. Why did God not reveal Himself to them? The fact that they never knew a God means that there was no history with God, so, they must be the example here.

    I can't think of a reason that God did not reveal Himslef to them. If the Chinese had gods they would surely have heard of them and made their own gods or adopted them. This is an example of a people that turned away from God and has not been punished on earth. But what happens to the people that did not travel and have sincerely not heard of God? That is similar to juvenile hall, where the people are too young to suffer severe consequences. If they were punished for not hearing of God, what good would that do? WHo punishes people for not hearing of them? Who loves people that have heard of them? Hearing of God is therefore not important, but speaking to God is appreciated. The thing is God can read your mind supposedly so you don;t need o speak to Him, as you are always speaking 'to' Him, through your body langauge and other phonetics.
    No....not everyone hears about God in life. At least not the Judeo-Christian version. There have literally been entire civilization that have not heard of God. Maybe A god....or some gods....but not "the" god.

    So in his absence to their mind.....according to Christians in this thread.....they are doomed to hell because there was no way for them to even know about God. Take an Aborigine for example, for thousands of years their people have gone to hell until the one special day that England brought prisoners to Australia and with it Christianity to those "poor souls"? Are you kidding me. For thousands of years people have gone to hell because they had literally no knowledge of God.

    You can't say they turned away from God and set up their own religions. You would first have to prove they ever knew God. But according to history we find that these civilizations had their own religions that were very different than Judeo Christianity.

    In Heaven there is no beer. That's why we drink it here.

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    Re: Those who have never heard of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Well, I'm not God, but I boldfaced the part which describes how a person who has never heard the Gospel may be saved. It involves seeking God and trying to do His will, as best you know it according to your conscience. God extends His grace to all people and works mysteriously. However, along with this possibility recognized by the Church, is the Church's teaching of Purgatory. It may be presumed that a person who has not heard of Christ, has not been a member of His Church, has not participated in the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Penance, Holy Eucharist, etc., would need to be spiritually purified much more than a faithful member of Christ's Church, before eventually attaining Heaven.

    Mr. Browning is still around!

    I emboldened the portion above I want to address here. That portion you described as a means of those who do NOT KNOW of God still achieving 'salvation'(for lack of a better word). But if they do not know of God then how do they "seek him out"?! And doesn't the "as best you know it" part throw a giant wrench into everything? Because Kent Hovind, Jerry Falwell, Bishop Spong, Al Sharpton, Hitler, Barack Obama etc. all do or DID their best to achieve God's will as they "knew/know it" but surely they are not all deserving of equal 'salvation'?! The above range from the extremely 'evil'(by MY moral standards) such as Hitler to the seemingly less evil(Jerry Falwell, Kent Hovind), to the 'good'(Spong, Sharpton, Obama).

    Without any God actually revealing HIMSELF(as opposed to seeming to be imaginary while humans all run around telling everyone what he is like and what his will is), there is no criteria for any of them to really know anything about God so they act according to their morals and trying to aid their people.

 

 
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