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  1. #1
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    Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    Does Grabzor answer? OF COURSE! For as long as their have been humans on this planet, a select few of them have always prayed to Grabzor not to destroy the planet.

    The planet has not been destroyed.

    Therefor, Grabzor exists and we must pray to him. Someone has to or he will eat / destroy the planet. The evidence for Grabzor is all around us. Did you wake up inside the gullet of a giant space bug? No? Well...

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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    It is an unfortunate turn of events that has seen the few of us who know the Truth become overwhelmed through the generations with more popular religions. Grabzor knows who is loyal, and who is an ad populem theist. The Space Beetle's ire shall be felt most by those who should have known better and decided they wanted to hope for something else. Grabzor need not destroy the farm that feeds him, but he certainly may torturously maim and mangle the souls that displease him.
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

  3. #3
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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    AMEN, brother Fysh!

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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    3. And in the darkened days of the final hour, they did come to know the truth that is Grabzor. When the final carapace was clicked, and judgement fell upon them like the mighty Brogan of Truth, then was there much hissing and clacking of mandibles, but there was nothing to save them, and Grabzor, mighty in his resplendent sheen of exoskeletal armor, did come from on high and lay about him seizing and eating their paltry souls.

    4. Each click of his mighty mandibles was as the beating of ten thousand men upon their shields, and with each sextuple step caused the earth to shake and the works of man to tremble.

    5. And they were sore afraid.

    From the Book of Beetles, Chapter 1 Verses 3-5
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    For any theists who care to respond to this thread, be very careful. Consider the following:

    1) If you argue that Grabzor is something Fyshhed just made up, the burden of proof falls to you to prove that your chosen flavor of theism isn't something that someone made up a long time ago. Beware appeals to tradition and ad populem fallacies.

    2) If you argue that the world as it is CANNOT be used as proof of Grabzor then you better be SURE that you're not using the natural world as "proof" of your deity / religion. Perceiving the world's existence to be evidence of Grabzor is analogous to you stating that the world's existence (or some aspect of it) is proof for your deity. Again, you are faced with the challenge of proving that your deity isn't something that someone made up long ago. Also, you have to prove that you attributing devine aspects to mundane occurances isn't simply your arbitrary perception. i.e. You have to prove that the rock is sitting on the ground because god put it there and not because a naturally occuring glacier moved it tens of thousands of years ago.

    Finally, be aware that deities and religions are routinely fabricated. Just do a web search and I'm sure you'll find plenty... from Scientology to mormonism, there are probably dozens being hatched as we speak. Do not be so quick to dismiss them as fabrications while pointing to your own as valid. To do so is an untenable position that leaves you unable to make any valid arguments (such as ones against Grabzor).

  6. #6
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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    ...[humans] have always prayed to Grabzor not to destroy the planet.

    The planet has not been destroyed.

    Therefor, Grabzor exists and we must pray to him.
    Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Logical non-sequiter.


    Also, I remember talking to my bio-major roommate about large animals. There is a limit to how large a beetle can get; thermo-something-or-other.

    he certainly may torturously maim and mangle the souls that displease him.
    How does one displease Grabzor?

    the Book of Beetles, Chapter 1 Verses 3-5
    Where may I purchase this book, that I may delve deeper into the truth of the Church of Grabzor? If it is unavailable, how am I to follow such an ontologically self-evident deity?

    Obviously, the comparison is being made between the Holy Bible and the Book of Beetles. Differences: 1) the Bible has been cross-examined over the years; 2) the Bible is widely available for any person to examine/cross-examine; 3) The Bible exists.

    One similarity, as the atheists here will be quick to point out, is that, ostensibly, both are fictional/made up. However, the Bible is reconcilable with reality; it COULD be true. There are no violations of reason/logic in the Bible

    Q: "What about miracles, CS? Obviously, the Bible is claiming that the laws that govern this reality can be broken by God; how can you say that the Bible doesn't violate logic?"

    A: "So for me the programmer, the discontinuity was not a violation of law but the manifestation of a higher law known to me but not to you. By analogy, miracles in nature are not violations of natural law, but the manifestation of a higher law, God's law, as yet unknown." --Charles Babbage

    Whereas the claim that Grabzor (a gigantic beetle) exists seems to be, by contrast, logically impossible. God is not limited physically, except for Jesus, who followed the biology of a human. Grabzor, on the other hand, does not follow the biology of a beetle (although this is based solely on a rather hazy recollection of a brief discussion with my roommate last year).

    One does not need to disprove a claim unsupported by reason (as religions are, in my estimation) in order to disbelieve it.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  7. #7
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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    There are no violations of reason/logic in the Bible
    If this were true, than Christianity could not be argued against logically, because if every aspect of it were reasonable and logical, there could therefore be no logical grounds on which to counter it. The trouble is, the logic explaining all the events is circular logic, which has been debated countless times in these forums. For instance, a scientifically unlogical occurence, whether it be raising the dead or turning water to wine, or walking on water for that matter, make sense to Christians because it is the exercising of the power of God either by Christ or through faith in Christ. Trouble is, this only holds water (no pun intended... which by my very claim of that infers that I DID intend a pun... strange...) if viewed from a theistic perspective. I hold that Jesus could not in any way walk on water scientifically speaking, nor could he be attributed to the raising of the dead. All these things make no logical sense unless viewed from a theistic perspective. Therefore, for those who would argue against the Bible, we have substantial claims that the events in the Bible often violate logic and reason. Those who argue for the Bible do so under the false logic of theism. It is falsed because it is based on itself.
    I think, therefore I am. Thus, while I sleep, I am not! Could this be why time appears to have no bearing while asleep, because you do not exist? What is time? What defines existence? A body, a mind, a soul? Thus, I envy those that die, for they have the answers. Yet, what is death? Does the sentience of an entity cease to be at the time the body fails? We shall all see one day. ;?

  8. #8
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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    Here's you:

    If this were true, than Christianity could not be argued against logically, because if every aspect of it were reasonable and logical, there could therefore be no logical grounds on which to counter it. The trouble is, the logic explaining all the events is circular logic, which has been debated countless times in these forums. For instance, a scientifically unlogical occurence, whether it be raising the dead or turning water to wine, or walking on water for that matter, make sense to Christians because it is the exercising of the power of God either by Christ or through faith in Christ. Trouble is, this only holds water (no pun intended... which by my very claim of that infers that I DID intend a pun... strange...) if viewed from a theistic perspective. I hold that Jesus could not in any way walk on water scientifically speaking, nor could he be attributed to the raising of the dead. All these things make no logical sense unless viewed from a theistic perspective. Therefore, for those who would argue against the Bible, we have substantial claims that the events in the Bible often violate logic and reason. Those who argue for the Bible do so under the false logic of theism. It is falsed because it is based on itself.
    And here's me, in the post you were responding to:

    Q: "What about miracles, CS? Obviously, the Bible is claiming that the laws that govern this reality can be broken by God; how can you say that the Bible doesn't violate logic?"

    A: "So for me the programmer, the discontinuity was not a violation of law but the manifestation of a higher law known to me but not to you. By analogy, miracles in nature are not violations of natural law, but the manifestation of a higher law, God's law, as yet unknown." --Charles Babbage
    "God's law, as yet unknown," is taken to be true by Christians and untrue by other theists and atheists.

    All these things make no logical sense unless viewed from a theistic perspective.
    Exactly. Because you presuppose that God doesn't exist, how is your conclusion any more valid than mine, which presupposes that He does? "If the Bible is true, then it is not logically contradictory" is just as circular as "If the Bible isn't true, then it is logically contradictory." Yes, Christianity begs the question "Is all of this true?" However, until reason gives the answer to that question, you cannot fault my belief for being illogical.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  9. #9
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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    Quote Originally Posted by CS
    One similarity, as the atheists here will be quick to point out, is that, ostensibly, both are fictional/made up. However, the Bible is reconcilable with reality; it COULD be true. There are no violations of reason/logic in the Bible
    Consider the following:

    Abraham Lincoln was president of the United States during the Civil War.
    Abraham Lincoln was assassinated at a play.
    Abraham Lincoln was visited by an angel from god shortly before the play and gave Lincoln a choice. He could go to the play and be killed or NOT go to the play and live, though if he were to avoid the assassination, his assassin would keep trying and would likely hurt hundreds of innocent people (using TNT for example).
    Lincoln went to the play and sacrificed himself so that others would not suffer. Therefor, Lincoln is worthy of worship.

    This is the same model for what the bible does. There is a lot of truth in the bible. There really were Pharohs and they really did have Jewish slaves. There really were Romans and they really did occupy the geographical region that Jesus allegedly existed in 2000 years ago.

    All of your so-called "examinations" boil down to researching verifyable mundane facts and making huge logical leaps in attempts to attach that mundane validity to ridiculous supernatural events. If you disagree then what exactly are you going to point to in order to formulate an argument? What point could you possibly bring up that doesn't boil down to folklore or follow the same pattern that I just laid out?

  10. #10
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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    "God's law, as yet unknown," is taken to be true by Christians and untrue by other theists and atheists.
    And therein lies the problem. As an unknown, who is to know if it is A) God's Law(representative of ad populem theology, B) natural, automatically determined law, (representative of secularity or randomness) or C) Grabzor's Law (representive of the theology of arbitrarity)?

    With nothing but circles and speculation, no real deity, conjured or arbitrary,popular or otherwise, seems to encompass a sense of true understandability. Hence the "yet."

    But if you do not yet know it is God's, how do you know it is law at all?
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

  11. #11
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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    Quote Originally Posted by CS
    Because you presuppose that God doesn't exist, how is your conclusion any more valid than mine, which presupposes that He does?
    Our position is more valid because we reject all religions / accept that all of their claims are based on folklore.

    YOUR position is less valid because you reject all religions / accept that all of their claims are based on folklore SAVE ONE. For you, it's Christianity. This has always struck me as profoundly hypocritical.

    "All the claims of Christianity are true because our god is real. All your claims are false because all your gods are either made up or just my god that you mistook as your god."

    Please.

  12. #12
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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    Because we can not prove the existence of God through material existence, it is quite possible that everyone would see God differently. This was especially evident in my RCIA classes when I was becoming Catholic. The priest who ran the classes asked all 20 or so of us to draw a picture of God.

    Not one was alike...go figure. Most had similarities, some had major differences. Did that mean none of them were accurate representations of God? Or maybe all of them were accurate representations of God? Maybe some? Yet all 20 of us went on to become Catholic. It didn't alter our perception of God. Our pictures stayed the same before we were Catholic and after, and yet...all remained different pictures.

    I think you are making a major mistake here. You are classifying God AS Religion, and they are not the same. I don't think we can deny the subjectiveness of what God *is*, because if you asked all the Theists to draw a picture of God, not one would be identical to another. But what you are attempting to challenge the Theists to do is argue that their God, however it is that they perceive it, is the True (capital T) God. Religion only serves as a representation of certain characteristics that God might have. All religions exist with certain practices so that we might please the god concept. That is a fact. Not one religion exists with the purpose of pissing God off....except Satanism. And even Satanism would acknowledge the existence of a God with certain characteristics. Any Theist knows that the God likely has many faces. It doesn't mean that they can't argue that their Religion is the True (capital T) Religion that represents that God. (However, that is one difficult debate to win, and I don't think there is only one True Religion, so I'm not going to take that to task.)

    Another mistake you make is that you have completely ignored the equally important aspects of how one comes to know God such as intuition and personal experiences with Grabzor himself. If Fyshhed truly had some kind of earthmoving experience with this creature, then certainly he is entitled to try to convince people that Grabzor is the one true God. But you're going to need to come up with something better than this--

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhav
    The planet has not been destroyed.

    Therefor, Grabzor exists and we must pray to him.
    --if you expect to gain any kind of a following. Good Luck with your new Religion....Grabzorism...the one TRUE religion!
    Souls of the animal kingdom: eagle, fox, bottle-nose dolphin, octopus, house cat. Okay, let's jump this jump. -- Rod Kimble

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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    I knew I could count on you, HL, to come to this thread and completely confuse the issue of a god / religion.

    Because we can not prove the existence of God through material existence, it is quite possible that everyone would see God differently.
    Because we can not prove the existence of god through material existence, but...


    Another mistake you make is that you have completely ignored the equally important aspects of how one comes to know God such as intuition and personal experiences with Grabzor himself.
    We should all elevate our thoughts and intuitions to some higher esoteric plain so we can delude ourselves into believing god exists.

    Thanks for the insight, luv. I'll be over here with the physchologists, psychoanalysts, and other therapists and researchers. You can go over there with the crystal waivers, new agers, and other assorted folk who believe that intuition, thoughts, and emotions are on some super-natural level... |)|

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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    Oh and...

    Quote Originally Posted by HL
    Another mistake you make is that you have completely ignored the equally important aspects of how one comes to know God such as intuition and personal experiences with Grabzor himself.
    By your "logic" the FACT that Grabzor hasn't eaten the planet is "evidence" that he's real. I got up this morning to a world NOT the gullette of a giant space bug. How's THAT for personal experience?

  15. #15
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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    YOUR position is less valid because you reject all religions / accept that all of their claims are based on folklore SAVE ONE. For you, it's Christianity. This has always struck me as profoundly hypocritical.
    Logic and reason have disproven many religious beliefs. Most major religions at one time or another have had some silly belief (e.g., the world is flat) that has been disproven. However, until logic and reason disprove my religion, or until my religion becomes logically invalid, YOUR bias is no more logically valid than MINE.

    "All the claims of Christianity are true because our god is real. All your claims are false because all your gods are either made up or just my god that you mistook as your god."
    Isn't this exactly what you believe, minus the God? "All the claims of atheism are true because our non-god is real. All your claims are false because all your gods are either made up or just my non-god that you mistook as your god."

    Please.


    Abraham Lincoln was president of the United States during the Civil War.
    Abraham Lincoln was assassinated at a play.
    Abraham Lincoln was visited by an angel from god shortly before the play and gave Lincoln a choice. He could go to the play and be killed or NOT go to the play and live, though if he were to avoid the assassination, his assassin would keep trying and would likely hurt hundreds of innocent people (using TNT for example).
    Lincoln went to the play and sacrificed himself so that others would not suffer. Therefor, Lincoln is worthy of worship.

    This is the same model for what the bible does. There is a lot of truth in the bible. There really were Pharohs and they really did have Jewish slaves. There really were Romans and they really did occupy the geographical region that Jesus allegedly existed in 2000 years ago.
    You are pre-supposing that the Bible is false. This claim has YET to be proven.

    And therein lies the problem. As an unknown, who is to know if it is A) God's Law(representative of ad populem theology, B) natural, automatically determined law, (representative of secularity or randomness) or C) Grabzor's Law (representive of the theology of arbitrarity)?
    Ad populem theology? Sorry, you misunderstand the nature of God's law. It doesn't matter how MANY people believe it, as it does not claim authenticity based on popularity. "Natural, automatically determined law" is not OPPOSED to God's law. "Natural laws" are simply descriptions of what Nature, in fact, DOES. Nothing more, nothing less. What is the "theology of arbitrarity?" Is this an actual theological term, or are you just pulling it out of an orifice? In any case, the fact that "Grabzor's Law" is arbitrary, by chance, not ordered, marked by chaos, etc., would lead me to believe that it was most likely irrational. Whereas, in Christianity, God is marked by order, law, justice, immutability, eternality, mercy, grace, etc.

    With nothing but circles and speculation, no real deity, conjured or arbitrary,popular or otherwise, seems to encompass a sense of true understandability. Hence the "yet."
    I have no idea what this means, but I'll attempt a response. Unless you can prove that there is no real deity, how can you claim that your approach is any different than mine? Your beliefs are different, but you don't ONLY use logic to get to it, otherwise you could prove, logically and rationally, that there is no God. How are you not guilty of circular logic? God=Grabzor because both are fictional. "If God doesn't exist, the Bible is not true." That is a true statement. "If the Bible is true, God exists." That's another true statement. You have still offered no more evidence for your claim that God doesn't exist than I have for my claim that He does. The difference is that you claim that your faith is reason, and that no reasonable person could believe otherwise (ergo Christians are unreasonable, they disregard reason, they abandon reason, they are ignorant, stupid, and voted for Dubya. Wait, that's redundant, right?). Unfortunately, your claim that God doesn't exist is NOT proven. Where's your support, if you only use reason? Why can't I disbelieve your unsupported, unrefuted claim?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  16. #16
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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Clivey
    You are pre-supposing that the Bible is false. This claim has YET to be proven.
    On the contrary, Clive: I just stated that a lot of what was stated in the bible is TRUE. We can archeological and independent proof of such things as Pharohs, Jews, Romans, and the era of time from 2000 years ago.

    The argumnet, Clive, is that one cannot take outlandish claims and "sneak them in" with valid ones. It's the same as with Lincoln. What proof would you point to if I questioned the validity of say... the resurrection? You'd no doubt point to HISTORICAL facts to make up your argument. Maybe not your entire argument, but a lot of it. What I am trying to get you to understand is that this is a fallacy. Just as I cannot use the bones of Abraham Lincoln as evidence that he was a martyr who spoke to an angel of god, you can not point to natural / historically valid places and use them as "evidence" of supernatural events.

    So, no Clive... I have not pre-supposed that the bible is false. I have pre-supposed that many parts of it at true.

  17. #17
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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric
    I knew I could count on you, HL, to come to this thread and completely confuse the issue of a god / religion.
    Maybe it's you who's confused about the issue of god and religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhav
    We should all elevate our thoughts and intuitions to some higher esoteric plain so we can delude ourselves into believing god exists.
    Hmmm...the psychoanalyst would say that you have an inferiority complex regarding intuitive thought, perhaps because it betrayed you in the past, or you find yourself incapable of attaining it. Therefore, you feel deficient and inadequate, so you adhere strongly to the Atheistic belief because in logic and reason, intuition is not fundamentally necessary. Athiesm welcomes you with open arms because it does not require you to face your inadequacies. I ascertained this due to your insistence on stating that intuitive thought is on a "higher" plane that we must "elevate" ourselves to. In any case, it is an erroneous statement because intuition is no better or worse of a thought process than logic. It simply depends on the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhav
    I'll be over here with the physchologists, psychoanalysts, and other therapists and researchers.
    See....they aren't always right. Lesson number one.

    Lesson number two. There are so many fields of thought and most of these "experts" that you allude to will fall into three main categories of them. Behaviorists, Cognitivists, or Humanists, or some kind of mixture of the three. In all three schools of thought, intuition is given as much priority as rationality. (With the exception of some behaviorist theories and a handful of cognitive ones. Humanists, which is just as valid as any other school of thought, relies quite heavily on it, researches it, and tests it all the time.) Not one of those professionals could do their job well without intuition or some sort of awareness of their own spirituality.

    Got news for you, luv. Most leading schools of thought include theories on inuitive thought and spirituality. Most incorporate intuition and spirituality as integral parts of human existence and human personality. Actually, I developed most of my opinions about this while studying Counseling Psych reading theorists such as Jung, Perls, Rogers, Frankl, and philosophers such as Kant, James, and even the oldies but goodies, Plato and Aristotle.

    While you think you're hanging out with the psychologists, psychoanalysts and other therapists, I challenge you to go find reputable ones who will discount the importance of intuitive thought and spirituality, or any who will admit that they don't use it in their practice.
    Souls of the animal kingdom: eagle, fox, bottle-nose dolphin, octopus, house cat. Okay, let's jump this jump. -- Rod Kimble

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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    I have not pre-supposed that the bible is false. I have pre-supposed that many parts of it at true.
    Semantics. You pre-suppose that the parts of the Bible that inform theological doctrine are false, at least where that theological doctrine is incompatible with atheism.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    I have no idea what this means, but I'll attempt a response.
    Rephrase:

    In an example of curcuitious logic, the claim of any god (arbitrary or popular) being incapable of being understood by humans is a defense mechanism. You (general) can claim anything you want, then when people try to refute it, raise your shield of "You cannot understand the mind/nature of God." There is no equal and infinitely credible anti-God figure to refute the stances claimed to be official descriptions or quotes of God. This equates to the Lincoln analogy.

    If one can disconnect the human invention of religion and the theistic claim of God, there are certain problems that arise. Just because something is incomprehensible does not mean it does not exist. Just because you do not understand something does not mean that it is incomprehensible. Just because you want to have meaning does not mean that you do. Just because you want to live on after death does not mean you will. Religion is conjuration that tells people what they want to hear in order to convince them to do something an authority wants. Whether or not a god of any kind exists is irrelevant to religion. No religion can accurately and verifiably prove that it understands the condition of existence entirely or even partially. So how do you know if it's right at all?
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

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    Re: Does Grabzor Answer? (formerly does god answer...)

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    Semantics. You pre-suppose that the parts of the Bible that inform theological doctrine are false, at least where that theological doctrine is incompatible with atheism.
    correction: Where theological doctrine is incompatible with normal human perception and the laws of physics as we understand them to be true in all other cases.
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

 

 
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