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  1. #1
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    Change You Can't Believe In

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...s-afghanistan/

    Irony is so-called "Anti-War" demonstrators suddenly stopping as soon as a young, black, Democratic congressman from Illinois gets elected president.

    Where are all the code pink demonstrators holding posters of Obama sporting a Hitler mustache, with a swatstika spray-painted on his forehead, as they did with Bush?

    As usual, when the Democrats are waging the wars, it's seen as humanitarian. Musn't stop bombing brown people in third world countries, otherwise we'd have to fight their non-existant army here at home.
    "I let go of all desire for the common good, and the good becomes as common as the grass."
    Lao Tsu

  2. #2
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    Re: Change You Can't Believe In

    So, are you comparing the decision to engage conflict in Afganistan with the decision to engage Iraq?

    Maybe there was protest against the Iraq war BECAUSE IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11.

    Maybe there is support for military intervention in Afganistan because it appartently does have something to do with 9/11.

    And what does Obama being black have to do with anything? Is your suggestion that because he is black, everyone is sensitive to racism and as a result lets him get away with anything he wants?

    The oversimplified way I read this is:
    9/11 happens
    Looks like Afganistan is the/a source.
    Lets go in and get rid of the source.
    A half hearted effort is made.
    Oh lets attack Iraq because...um.......oh yeah, they have big bombs and stuff.
    Afganistan is neglected.
    Afganistan slowly reverts back to being a problem area.
    New president says - gee, guess we should do something about that.

    Your translation seems to be - Bush makes war - everyone says Bad Bad.
    Obama makes war - oh that's ok because he is black???

  3. #3
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    Re: Change You Can't Believe In

    Quote Originally Posted by spotty View Post
    So, are you comparing the decision to engage conflict in Afganistan with the decision to engage Iraq?

    Maybe there was protest against the Iraq war BECAUSE IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11.

    Maybe there is support for military intervention in Afganistan because it appartently does have something to do with 9/11.

    And what does Obama being black have to do with anything? Is your suggestion that because he is black, everyone is sensitive to racism and as a result lets him get away with anything he wants?

    The oversimplified way I read this is:
    9/11 happens
    Looks like Afganistan is the/a source.
    Lets go in and get rid of the source.
    A half hearted effort is made.
    Oh lets attack Iraq because...um.......oh yeah, they have big bombs and stuff.
    Afganistan is neglected.
    Afganistan slowly reverts back to being a problem area.
    New president says - gee, guess we should do something about that.

    Your translation seems to be - Bush makes war - everyone says Bad Bad.
    Obama makes war - oh that's ok because he is black???
    His race does have a little to do with it, seeing as Liberals love to call any opposition racist. However, it's mainly becuse he's a Democrat. The "anti-war" protesters care more about getting a handout than stopping senseless killing.

    Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11, al-CIAda did. The Taliban was our ally up until we blamed them for "aiding" al-CIAda, then proceded to bomb, invade, and occupy a country we had no business being involved in. If we had not declared war on the nation of Afghanistan (most of whom hate al-CIAda), and rather invoked letters of marque and reprisal agianst the 200 some al-CIAda members, this would already be over.
    Imagine the KKK bombing a building in Windsor, then Canada invades the United States.

    The training for these attacks were done in Spain and Germany, and the perpetrators were mainly Saudi nationals (a country we seem to have no problem with) and a few Afghani citizens. Bin-Laden was hiding in the hills of Afghanistan, but now his current residence is dubius at best (as is the question of whether he's even alive).

    As soon as Obama sent those 3,000 extra troops, this became his war. Let's see if a nation that has never been conquered (by Alexander of Macedonia, Rome, Ghengis Khan, or the Soviets) will succumb to a failing empire on the brink of economic depravity.
    "I let go of all desire for the common good, and the good becomes as common as the grass."
    Lao Tsu

  4. #4
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    Re: Change You Can't Believe In

    Quote Originally Posted by Elutherian View Post
    Where are all the code pink demonstrators holding posters of Obama sporting a Hitler mustache, with a swatstika spray-painted on his forehead, as they did with Bush?
    .
    Like this...
    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/...urn_their.html

    Or this...
    http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/con...1/s2747290.htm

    Or this...
    http://www.nationalrepublicrat.com/c...ored-by-media/

    Honestly, Google for it and you will find it.

    Why doesn't the media cover it more? Well partly because there is a bit less of it as one might expect. Secondly because it is a less classic narrative and news is all about story telling these days and showing people what they want to hear or expect to hear.

    ---------- Post added at 09:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elutherian View Post
    Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11, al-CIAda did. The Taliban was our ally up until we blamed them for "aiding" al-CIAda, then proceded to bomb, invade, and occupy a country we had no business being involved in. If we had not declared war on the nation of Afghanistan (most of whom hate al-CIAda), and rather invoked letters of marque and reprisal agianst the 200 some al-CIAda members, this would already be over.
    They were not our allies. The mujihadeen (however you spell that) was. The Taliban were allies in so much as they weren't ruskies, but once that threat became mostly moot we didn't get along well with Taliban. They were the ones blowing up ancient Buddhist statues and generally making a mess over there. The Clinton administration ordered air and missile strikes on the training camps there before 9/11.

    After 9/11 Bush demanded they extradite bin-lauden who they had close ties with, they refused so we invaded and ousted them.

  5. #5
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    Re: Change You Can't Believe In

    Quote Originally Posted by Elutherian View Post
    Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11, al-CIAda did. The Taliban was our ally up until we blamed them for "aiding" al-CIAda, then proceded to bomb, invade, and occupy a country we had no business being involved in. If we had not declared war on the nation of Afghanistan (most of whom hate al-CIAda), and rather invoked letters of marque and reprisal agianst the 200 some al-CIAda members, this would already be over.
    Imagine the KKK bombing a building in Windsor, then Canada invades the United States.
    I Challenge to support a claim. your world view on the matter in a formal debate... 6 rounds should do it.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
    - Wayne Gretzky

  6. #6
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    Re: Change You Can't Believe In

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    I Challenge to support a claim. your world view on the matter in a formal debate... 6 rounds should do it.
    I accept.

    Uh, I'm not really all that sure on how this works...

    ---------- Post added at 09:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Like this...
    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/...urn_their.html

    Or this...
    http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/con...1/s2747290.htm

    Or this...
    http://www.nationalrepublicrat.com/c...ored-by-media/

    Honestly, Google for it and you will find it.

    Why doesn't the media cover it more? Well partly because there is a bit less of it as one might expect. Secondly because it is a less classic narrative and news is all about story telling these days and showing people what they want to hear or expect to hear.
    Fair enough. However, it's certainly not to the same extent it was under Bush, and there is very little to no coverage of it.

    ---------- Post added at 09:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 AM ----------



    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    They were not our allies. The mujihadeen (however you spell that) was. The Taliban were allies in so much as they weren't ruskies, but once that threat became mostly moot we didn't get along well with Taliban. They were the ones blowing up ancient Buddhist statues and generally making a mess over there. The Clinton administration ordered air and missile strikes on the training camps there before 9/11.

    After 9/11 Bush demanded they extradite bin-lauden who they had close ties with, they refused so we invaded and ousted them.
    Perhaps using the word "ally" was a bit of an overstatement. We did, however, have previous relations with them, and we were the cause of their climb to power in the first place.

    Nation Building was not the answer to their refusal to extradite. Again, the Canada/KKK example, if we refused to extradite.
    Last edited by Elutherian; November 24th, 2009 at 11:57 AM.
    "I let go of all desire for the common good, and the good becomes as common as the grass."
    Lao Tsu

  7. #7
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    Re: Change You Can't Believe In

    Quote Originally Posted by Elutherian View Post
    I accept.

    Uh, I'm not really all that sure on how this works...
    You need to start a thread in the formal debate section. We each can post 6 times, in salvo. Since it's your world view I challenge, I will let you write the first post which will be your statement that I will challenge.

    In formal debates, we usually agree on a method to measure performance, a polling of our community works for me.

    Good luck !

    (you can look into the formal debate section to get a feel for how it works.)

    Thanks.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
    - Wayne Gretzky

  8. #8
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    Re: Change You Can't Believe In

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    You need to start a thread in the formal debate section. We each can post 6 times, in salvo. Since it's your world view I challenge, I will let you write the first post which will be your statement that I will challenge.

    In formal debates, we usually agree on a method to measure performance, a polling of our community works for me.

    Good luck !

    (you can look into the formal debate section to get a feel for how it works.)

    Thanks.

    I think that should put an end to this thread for now, because it is much too fraught with inaccuracies and conjecture to foster healthy debate.

    Looking forward to a formal smack down.
    "I think when the history of this period is written, people will realize a lot of the decisions that were made on Wall Street took place over a decade or so, before I arrived in President, during I arrived in President."
    Dubya

  9. #9
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    Re: Change You Can't Believe In

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    You need to start a thread in the formal debate section. We each can post 6 times, in salvo. Since it's your world view I challenge, I will let you write the first post which will be your statement that I will challenge.

    In formal debates, we usually agree on a method to measure performance, a polling of our community works for me.

    Good luck !

    (you can look into the formal debate section to get a feel for how it works.)

    Thanks.
    Great.

    Just so I'm sure, the worldview you're challenging is that 9/11 was perpetrated by al-CIAda and not necessarily the Afghan Government right?
    "I let go of all desire for the common good, and the good becomes as common as the grass."
    Lao Tsu

  10. #10
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    Re: Change You Can't Believe In

    Quote Originally Posted by Elutherian View Post
    Great.

    Just so I'm sure, the worldview you're challenging is that 9/11 was perpetrated by al-CIAda and not necessarily the Afghan Government right?
    Pretty much, yes. Especially what you likely insinuate with the loaded term "Al CIAda". I suggest we fix further discussions in private messages to set the stage up.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
    - Wayne Gretzky

 

 

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