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  1. #1
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    Everything a man does he does to get laid

    Some evolutionary scientists think that everything men do is ultimately for this one aim, whether they know it or not. When Michelangelo spent years painting the Sistine chapel, he did it in the hope of some action. When Newton set about to formulate his laws of motion, he only had one thing in mind. When Kafka---well, you get the idea.

    I was quite convinced that this is true until the other day, when I saw this fascinating debate, in which the opposition to the motion put up a pretty good case. One of the opposition speakers, Rowan Pelling, argues that, from a female point of view, men do many things to avoid sex---playing computer games, etc. Another opposition speaker, Howard Jacobson, says that men only want to get sex out of the way so that they can get to the things they really want to do. He observes that if Michelangelo just wanted to get laid, there were many much easier ways to do it than painting the Sistine chapel.

    Perhaps it is true that our desire for achievement (that is, for both men and women) ultimately stems from our desire to get laid. However, might we as a species have grown out of that? Not out of sex, of course, but out of the desire to do things only with that end in mind. Is painting the Sistine chapel ceiling not an end in itself? Or are we only deluding ourselves that it is ultimately anything other than a sophisticated way to get sex?
    I try never fall into the trap of believing my own theories.

  2. #2
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    I don't get it. If everything men did was for the purpose of having sex, then why isn't our time devoted almost exclusively to this task? Why do we not, for example, make frequent use of high class escorts, which from what I understand actually cost less than it takes to take a woman out on dates, more often - at least in places where they are legal? Indeed, why would previously male-dominated governments have outlawed brothels and the like at all? Why would we spend our time on a debate website instead of attempting to date or otherwise seduce women? Why would certain men take vows of celibacy, religious or otherwise? I can't understand how anybody could possibly accept even a sliver of the ludicrous and blanket statement that "everything a man does he does to get laid" as true.

    EDIT:

    I just visited the link you gave, and honestly, it's a sad commentary on the stupidity of our time that about half of the people questioned said that they agreed with the statement "Everything a man does he does to get laid".
    Last edited by Dela Cruz; January 29th, 2010 at 08:23 AM.
    "Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do"
    -Isaac Asimov

  3. #3
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    Sex is only part of the equation.

    Now if you expand the idea of sex to the act of procreating, and prospering, then I suppose you can trace all our actions of an ambitious nature to increasing out power and status which ensures our line's success.

    But even with that we take many actions of pure comfort and indulgence. And much of what we work hard at doesn't bring us actual copulation so much as success that can support the our offspring after sex has been secured.

  4. #4
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    "everything we do is to get laid" is a misguided oversimplification, though not absolutely incorrect. "getting laid" is the most fundamental expression of the eros drive (or life drive) in humans (or men at least.. women get to create life inside them) which works in opposition to thanatos aka the death drive.

    To put it simply, the eros drive is human creativity, the thanatos is destruction. The eros drive was the source of the scientific genius that led to the atomic bomb, the thanatos drive is what dropped it.

    The eros drive was first conceived by Freud, and later expanded upon by other psychologists and philosophers.

    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    In Freudian psychology, eros, also referred to in terms of libido, libidinal energy or love, is the life instinct innate in all humans. It is the desire to create life and favours productivity and construction. Eros battles against the destructive death instinct of Thanatos (death instinct or death drive).

    German philosopher and sociologist Herbert Marcuse appropriated the concept for his highly influential 1955 work Eros and Civilization.

    to put it as abstractly as possible, the eros or thanatos drives, or their interplay, are present in all human endeavor.


    (the interplay of eros and thanatos also results in the tendency to have sex while grieving.. such as after a funeral)

  5. #5
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    You're skipping some of the finer nuances of evolution.
    Not just get laid, but get laid by the right set of genes - and even ensure that the product get taken care of by the right ideas.

    Humans can sense genetic compatibility (that is, some DIFFERENCES in genes, which promote genetic variability) through smell.
    Women tend to cheat with (what are considered to be) genetic masterpieces while living with real responsible guys.
    I will turn down sex because I want to have it with someone who I respect etc. (this may be for fear of being emotionally hurt, or contracting HIV though - either way your theory needs a little hashing out, and that I make a distinction between sex with a condom and without.)


    I think if we take evolution with all of it's implications we see that actually things such as art, and science and debate, can all be understood within this framework without losing any depth.
    Art, while it can be a method of seduction, can be and end in terms of self-exploration and expression - important aspect to mental health and connected with our world. Science is obviously useful. I mean, how could we get that girl to bone us if there was no condom (25% failure rate is it?). Or it's just a bi-product of curiosity, which I'm sure has some evolutionary benefits, despite killing a few cats. Debate surely makes us sound smarter, and figure out what kind of life we want to live, which can have sweet side effects when choosing a mate, or what you'll be eating on a daily basis or where you'll be living.

    I have serious trouble seeing any goal other than long term happiness, and if we accept evolution, happiness is granted by evolutionarily decided workings of our body. And I personally cannot be happy when I see others in pain, or imagine others in pain - so this does extend to my family, other people of my species, and other forms of life as well. Take that for whatever it means to you, maybe I'm just rationalizing a moral impulse, but can you think of an alternative?



    The book Sperm Wars is a great read that analyses a number of compelling hypothetical situations based on scientific experiments and theories derived from them.
    I highly recommend it.

    At the same time I don't disagree with AuspiciousFist, who takes a whole nother way of looking at the problem.
    Last edited by Supaiku; January 29th, 2010 at 08:14 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    While having sex is certainly something men (particularly young men) are interested in, it is absurd to believe men and women act only for sex. How would this theory, for instance, explain hermits who practice complete celibacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by AuspiciousFist View Post
    "everything we do is to get laid" is a misguided oversimplification, though not absolutely incorrect. "getting laid" is the most fundamental expression of the eros drive (or life drive) in humans (or men at least.. women get to create life inside them) which works in opposition to thanatos aka the death drive.
    While Freud certainly deserves respect for establishing (or, at least, helping to establish) psychology as a science and giving future psychologists something to work off of, many of his theories are not written off by modern psychologists as outright absurd. His theory of penis envy, for instance, was little more than a thinly veiled attempt to justify male chauvinism under science and I know very few psychologists who still believe in the Oedipus complex. How respected established and respected is the theory of thanatos and eros in the modern psychological community?

  7. #7
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    I don't think thanatos and eros is accepted int he modern psychological community... I've never even heard of it before:p


    I also wouldn't disregard fear as a driving force in the lives of mankind... People do things out of fear too - I think that might be the hermits.
    Yo Bizzaa!!

  8. #8
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    I just visited the link you gave, and honestly, it's a sad commentary on the stupidity of our time that about half of the people questioned said that they agreed with the statement "Everything a man does he does to get laid".
    I'm pretty sure that was before the debate though. Afterwards, most of the audience was convinced by the opposition's arguments.

    ---------- Post added at 02:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    While having sex is certainly something men (particularly young men) are interested in, it is absurd to believe men and women act only for sex. How would this theory, for instance, explain hermits who practice complete celibacy?
    I think those who support the idea that sex is the ultimate aim would argue that the case of celibacy is the exception that proves the rule.

    However, I think I'd definitely agree with the above comments, and I doubt that the sex-centric view really has a leg to stand on. Thinking of human behaviour as having originated in the trials of evolution is enormously helpful, but it seems a bit of a perversion to say that all we do is for sex. We are certainly the most advanced animals on earth. Yet there are many less advanced animals who do things for reasons other than sex (or survival), and as Howard Jacobson put it in the debate I linked to, it seems the one thing the evolutionists making the argument fail to accept is that we could have evolved, to some extent, out of those primal needs.
    I try never fall into the trap of believing my own theories.

  9. #9
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    While Freud certainly deserves respect for establishing (or, at least, helping to establish) psychology as a science and giving future psychologists something to work off of, many of his theories are not written off by modern psychologists as outright absurd. His theory of penis envy, for instance, was little more than a thinly veiled attempt to justify male chauvinism under science and I know very few psychologists who still believe in the Oedipus complex. How respected established and respected is the theory of thanatos and eros in the modern psychological community?

    The psychological basis for humans interpreting the world through dualities can be traced back to Freud's eros vs. thanatos model. Eros vs thanatos is the core duality of the human psyche. I know for sure that Jungian analysts use Jung's version of eros v thanatos in their practice, and I'm sure that all post grad psych students have at least encountered the idea when learning about Freud- whose core ideas regarding the existence and makeup of the unconscious and human psyche are still widely supported.

    Quote Originally Posted by supaiku
    I don't think thanatos and eros is accepted int he modern psychological community... I've never even heard of it before:p
    unless you are a member of the modern psychological community I don't know what to tell you.


    Quote Originally Posted by supaiku
    I also wouldn't disregard fear as a driving force in the lives of mankind... People do things out of fear too - I think that might be the hermits.
    Fear requires a learned reaction to an external event, so it couldn't be the core driving force behind human action.

  10. #10
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    Quote Originally Posted by AuspiciousFist View Post
    The psychological basis for humans interpreting the world through dualities can be traced back to Freud's eros vs. thanatos model. Eros vs thanatos is the core duality of the human psyche. I know for sure that Jungian analysts use Jung's version of eros v thanatos in their practice, and I'm sure that all post grad psych students have at least encountered the idea when learning about Freud- whose core ideas regarding the existence and makeup of the unconscious and human psyche are still widely supported.
    But what about eros and thanatos specifically?

  11. #11
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    But what about eros and thanatos specifically?
    They are an established psychoanalytic concept that many view as valid. You can test for them as well as you can test for the existence of the ego, superego, and id. I don't know what else to tell you.

    here is another link.

    Quote Originally Posted by
    http://changingminds.org/disciplines...th_drives.html

    In defining these drives, Freud is using a dualist approach, whereby the identification of Eros automatically defines an opposite. Eros and Thanatos both help define one another, in that one is 'not the other'.

    Eros and Thanatos interact and one can turn into the other, such a flipping of love and hate, crying and laughter. Eating preserves life but destroys that which is eaten.

    Perhaps repetition is due to drives that are only partially satisfied. It is important in early activities such as suckling and crying for attention. Perhaps also it is an attempt to completely fulfil all needs. Or maybe when an action fails to fully satisfy, the resulting frustration and indignity increases tension to the point where we seek the nearest potential gratification, which is to attempt the act again.

    Freud's drives are often misunderstood. Eros is seen as simple sexuality and hence as morally perverse, casting the human as base and primitive. The death drive is also unacceptable as it opposes the idea of the sanctity of life and can be seen as excusing or even encouraging suicide.

    Melanie Klein disagreed with Freud in that she believed that we are born with a fragile, brittle, weak and unintegrated Ego, and that the most basic human fear is that of disintegration and death.

  12. #12
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    Quote Originally Posted by AuspiciousFist View Post
    Fear requires a learned reaction to an external event, so it couldn't be the core driving force behind human action.
    Perhaps not "core" but just a driving force?


    ---------- Post added at 08:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AuspiciousFist View Post
    unless you are a member of the modern psychological community I don't know what to tell you.
    Just as well.
    Yo Bizzaa!!

  13. #13
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    I do not believe for a second that male behavior is purely for sexual gains, especially when men that find it hard to get sex partake in activities that only put them further away from it (for example, socially awkward men tend to be more drawn towards video games rather than sports). I do believe, however, that everything men do is driven towards self indulgence. I believe that we as Men are selfish creatures, and every action we do we do because we believe it will allow us to indulge in ourselves.

  14. #14
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    Quote Originally Posted by grobino View Post
    I believe that we as Men are selfish creatures, and every action we do we do because we believe it will allow us to indulge in ourselves.
    I think we as HUMANS are selfish creatures. Women are not exempt from this.
    .::The Swindall::.

    "...In the beginning, man created god"

  15. #15
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    Quote Originally Posted by grobino View Post
    I do not believe for a second that male behavior is purely for sexual gains, especially when men that find it hard to get sex partake in activities that only put them further away from it (for example, socially awkward men tend to be more drawn towards video games rather than sports). I do believe, however, that everything men do is driven towards self indulgence. I believe that we as Men are selfish creatures, and every action we do we do because we believe it will allow us to indulge in ourselves.
    Fear
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  16. #16
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    Quote Originally Posted by Supaiku
    I also wouldn't disregard fear as a driving force in the lives of mankind... People do things out of fear too - I think that might be the hermits.
    Why socially awkward? because of fear of social situations. Sure, with the Internet hermitism takes on a new form, but still pretty similar.

    grobino: What do you mean "indulge in ourselves"?
    Do you mean live? Be happy? What sort of happiness? Or something else altogether?
    Yo Bizzaa!!

  17. #17
    Will Evo
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    Re: Everything a man does he does to get laid

    I do believe, however, that everything men do is driven towards self indulgence. I believe that we as Men are selfish creatures, and every action we do we do because we believe it will allow us to indulge in ourselves.
    No doubt men/women are selfish, but I find it hard to believe that "every action" a man performs, is somehow the result of our wanting a self-profiting result. Unfortunately as much as I wish it not be, I am having a very hard time coming up with an example of a single action in which a man might not be acting ultimately for himself. That is a very humbling and disturbing theory, especially when I can pinpoint my own personal reasons for doing things, for instance, writing this reply...regardless if it is relevant or productive, this reply is bettering my status on these forums. Am I doing it strictly because of this reason? No, but is it a alternative motive? Absolutely.

    Now apply this theory to the current debate. No doubt I do not write on these forums for want of a sexual encounter, but what is the difference between one selfish motive and another? Regardless the gain, the motive was the same. Somehow, every little thing I do, is because I can gain from it. Very very interesting.

    -Evo

 

 

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