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Thread: Welfare fraud

  1. #1
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    Welfare fraud


    Why do those who lie get welfare and those who need it can't? I've seen this countless times and those who lie to get welfare are stealing from all the working class who pay taxes! We do not have a perfect system, but something close would be better?
    Paul

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Unfortunately there will always be people rorting any sort of social security system, because the needy very rarely can be grouped in such a way that can be recognised by some arbitrary threshold or requirement. On the other hand, the government could assess each application for assistance on an individual basis, but the costs of such a beaurocracy would be huge.

    The abolition of social programmes removes opportunities for fraud, while the money saved from lower taxes allows the majority of the working class to insure themselves against the kind of things they might have claimed welfare for in the first place. There is however a section of society, usually below the poverty line, that would be left high and dry.

    A balance needs to be struck between these two extremes, but this is politically difficult to do as neither the left nor right want to compromise. Welfare states like Germany and France are definately way too far to the left for their own good, and their economies suffer because of it. The US is probably a little far to the right for my liking, although I am hesitant to say so because I admit I'm not very well versed in the workings of the US system.
    No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgement of his equals or by the law of the land.
    - The Magna Carta, 1225

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Let me get this right. We set up a system which provides aid on an arbitrary basis, need, and then we wonder why people look to take advantage of the system? Who is to say one person's need outweighs another? Remove need from the equation and we can remove the shroud of fraud which hangs over such programs. Make aid programs based on production and value rather than need and we can eliminate fraud.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    If you believe that everyone on welfare is a low-down, lazy, good-for-nothing looking to wallow in near-poverty at the expense of the hard working masses, you are horribly lost to the right.

    If you believe that everyone on welfare is a happy, spunky, go-getter who's just down on their luck but would be the world's most hardest worker if just given the opportunity, then you are horribly lost to the left.

    The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Is it just me, or is government welfare in fact communism? I'm personally glad that it exists, however corrupt it is, because generally Americans don't give nearly as much to charity as they should. However, it seems odd that no one recognizes this blatantly socialist aspect of our financial system. Money is taken from one individual and given to another, in an attempt to even things out somewhat. It's not pure Marxism by a long shot, but forced wealth redistribution certainly isn't capitalism either. It's no secret that we're not a pure capitalism, since we do have government intervention to break up monopolies and such, but could we be further from the sort of theoretical Adam Smith-style pure, free market capitalism than most Americans realize?

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    Money is taken from one individual and given to another, in an attempt to even things out somewhat.
    I think the attempt is to help people through hard times, so that they can ultimately contribute to society once again.

    In a purely market-driven capitalism, we'd be privately hiring a service to remove people from our front yards. In a purely socialist society, we'd all be among those who are just working the system to their best advantage.

    Like Zhav said...the truth is always somewhere in the middle. So is the solution.
    Its turtles, all the way down.

  7. #7
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    Re: Welfare fraud

    We need to have socialized medicine because, well... we already have socialized medicine.

    Hi. I'm Zhavric. I am a natural born citizen of the United States. I have more than two forms of valid I.D., have broken no laws, and pay taxes. I break my leg.

    At the same time, Juan Smith who just hopped over the border breaks his leg on his way over a barbed wire fence. Juan has no valid I.D. He was not born here. He does not pay taxes here.

    We both call 911. We are both taken to a hospital. We are both treated. The hospital cannot turn us away orit will face a huge lawsuit.

    Juan and I both get our legs put in casts, are seen by doctors, and given perscriptions for expensive drugs.

    I am working a job that I am new to and there is a waiting period for health benefits to kick in. I don't have them yet.

    Juan and I both owe the hospital money.

    Juan's debt will get passed off to the taxpayer. My debt will either get passed off to the taxpayer or go to a debt collection agency who will hound me.

    So, the net effect is that Juan got the healthcare he needed even though he's not a citizen and he won't have to pay for it. I got the health care that I needed, but I have to pay for it because, well... I'm a citizen?

    Even for non-emergencies, a hospital who turns away a patient seeking medical attention is STILL looking at a huge lawsuit for discrimination and possibly putting someone's life in danger.

    So, we have socialized medicine. Right this very second it's happening. It's the same way as it is in Canada... only the Canadians are a little more honest about it.

    EDIT: This relates to welfare in that if we had socialized medicine, it would be much cheaper to deal with folks like Juan who don't have insurance and pass huge costs onto the taxpayer. It happens every day. More often it happens in the form of disease that, if spotted early, could be treated for pennies... but when left to fest requires more expensive treatments. It's cheaper to treat earlier, folks.

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    I have a close relative, (close enough that I know her background), who is on welfare and doesn't work. She claims that she can't work because of "health problems," but just in discussing them with her, I know that they do not stop her from working and that she is only allowed to be on welfare and not work because she gets notes from a doctor, who she admits, is her friend. Also, with her being a close relative, I know she was very spoiled in her upbringing, (she is in her 40's now), and it seems to me she is looking to carry on this legacy by having someone else--the government and taxpayers--care for her while she just continues to sleep in every day and do what she wants, (including buying booze and drugs), while her hard-working fellow citizens pay for it. Now, for people like her, I would agree with someone earlier who said that candidates should be judged on production and value because I know that if my relative, and many others like her, were judged like this, their "free ride" and ability to abuse the system would be over. However, at the same time, I agree with someone else who said a "balance" should be found because, obviously, this would not dispense fairness to everyone. There are those who are disabled or for some reason or another truly can't work and do need the assistance despite their inability to help "pay it back." Now, I am aware that to judge each person individually and fully investigate their needs compared to their lifestyle and abilities to contribute to society would undoubtely cost more for the beaurocracy, but the way I think of it, wouldn't this be worth it, if it meant not wasting millions and millions more dollars for years and years to come? And yes, we do waste on the many that abuse the system because if we didn't and "the many" didn't exist, this topic wouldn't be here, or let alone a controversy at all!

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Welfare, at least in theory, is a sign of a civilised and caring society. It is not a perfect system, but there again what human system is? The alternative to welfare would truly take us back to a spiritual and cultural dark age and the official acknowledgement that 'survival of the fittest' is the only way forward. -That ruthlessness and selfishness is the way and Margaret Thatcher was correct to claim that there 'is no such thing as society'.

    Yes, there is much in the way of anomalies and injustices need to be addressed. These injustices are both in the form of fraud on the part of the 'client' and meanness on the part of the state. There is still a general stigma of 'the undeserving poor', of 'scroungers and layabouts' and of the 'dangerous classes'. Yes, there are scroungers and fraudsters and they should be weeded out, but the majority genuine cases should be treated with more dignity, understanding and consideration.

    Often the booze and drugs that are funded by welfare are just symptoms of deeper lying and serious social and psychological malaise.

    What should be treated at least as seriously as welfare fraud, is corporate fraud and short cutting. With welfare fraud we have individual cases that may involve a few hundred or a few thousands of dollars, with corporate fraud and short cutting, millions of dollars and the misery and even deaths of many thousands, may be involved.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Why do people insist that welfare is the only means of providing assisstance to those who are unable to work? First, welfare is not "compassionate". It is abusive. Man does not have a natural propensity for being rewarded for non-production. Welfare is a shameful system which strips away the dignity of the individual and turns people into beggars. How is this a compassionate system? Compassion would be, hey, I know you are unable to walk, but we need a person who can ride in a wheelchair and keep the park tidy. We will pay you each week you show up. Compassion would be, Hey, I know your back is troubling, so come down to the state office and we will pay you to stuff envelopes. If you work, we will pay you for your production. At the end of the day, you owe us nothing, and we owe you a paycheck. Dignity preserved.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  11. #11
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    Re: Welfare fraud

    'I suppose there is less alms-giving in America than in any other Christian country on the face of the globe. It is not inthe temper of the people either to give or recieve'. ( Francis Trollope, wife of Anthony Trollope.)

    "The American Nation in the Sixth Ward is a fine people", he says. "They love th' eagle", he says, "on the back iv a dollar". Finley P Dunne in Mr. Dooley.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd
    Why do people insist that welfare is the only means of providing assisstance to those who are unable to work? First, welfare is not "compassionate". It is abusive. Man does not have a natural propensity for being rewarded for non-production. Welfare is a shameful system which strips away the dignity of the individual and turns people into beggars. How is this a compassionate system? Compassion would be, hey, I know you are unable to walk, but we need a person who can ride in a wheelchair and keep the park tidy. We will pay you each week you show up. Compassion would be, Hey, I know your back is troubling, so come down to the state office and we will pay you to stuff envelopes. If you work, we will pay you for your production. At the end of the day, you owe us nothing, and we owe you a paycheck. Dignity preserved.
    This is an excellent suggestion and does make sense in that anyone, no matter how unable to work they may be, should at least be able to clean up the park or stuff envelopes or something that does not require a lot of physical labor. (I would, personally, view this as being more compassionate, as well, because I don't appreciate "hand-out's," and this would serve more to foster self-worth in those that don't think they can make a meaniful contribution to society. Also, I think it would avoid the "Robin Hood" effect, so it would show compassion towards taxpaying citizens, as well.) And I would personally say that if they couldn't even do small jobs like these, either they are just plain lazy, (and wouldn't be deserving of welfare, in my opinion), OR, if they really have a severe physical or mental impediment, then it seems like an assisted living program would be more appropriate than a welfare or a work program.

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Is it just me, or is government welfare in fact communism? I'm personally glad that it exists, however corrupt it is, because generally Americans don't give nearly as much to charity as they should."

    Yes it is communism and of course few give to charity because.... YOU HAVE WELFARE!


    "It's no secret that we're not a pure capitalism, since we do have government intervention to break up monopolies and such"

    Break up monopolies? Rubbish and drivel. In capitalism there ARE no monopolies.


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    "We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it."
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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut
    'I suppose there is less alms-giving in America than in any other Christian country on the face of the globe. It is not inthe temper of the people either to give or recieve'. ( Francis Trollope, wife of Anthony Trollope.)

    "The American Nation in the Sixth Ward is a fine people", he says. "They love th' eagle", he says, "on the back iv a dollar". Finley P Dunne in Mr. Dooley.
    Support this.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Pibs
    Break up monopolies? Rubbish and drivel. In capitalism there ARE no monopolies.


    P.
    Pre-government intervention, and arguably currently: Microsoft.

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    Pre-government intervention, and arguably currently: Microsoft.
    I thought Bush quickly put the ropes on the attempt to disband MS.
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    I thought Bush quickly put the ropes on the attempt to disband MS.
    You are correct, the division proposal was actually overturned on appeal. It has been forced to pay many millions of dollars in lawsuit settlements, but it still has virtually no competition, as it's just too huge. Microsoft is a blatant monopoly in the personal computer operating system industry, despite Pibs' strange claim that capitalist societies don't have monopolies.

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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd
    Why do people insist that welfare is the only means of providing assisstance to those who are unable to work? First, welfare is not "compassionate". It is abusive. Man does not have a natural propensity for being rewarded for non-production. Welfare is a shameful system which strips away the dignity of the individual and turns people into beggars. How is this a compassionate system? Compassion would be, hey, I know you are unable to walk, but we need a person who can ride in a wheelchair and keep the park tidy. We will pay you each week you show up. Compassion would be, Hey, I know your back is troubling, so come down to the state office and we will pay you to stuff envelopes. If you work, we will pay you for your production. At the end of the day, you owe us nothing, and we owe you a paycheck. Dignity preserved.
    Ideally, that sounds great. Ideally. Where do those jobs come from? We supposedly don't have enough jobs as it is. We could create them, sure, but then that costs money too...

    Overall, though, I agree with you...the propensity toward productivity is a natural thing and is what should be rewarded. The problem is that your line of thinking is simply idealism and doesn't seem like it could be reality any time soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by DivineMisty
    I have a close relative, (close enough that I know her background), who is on welfare and doesn't work.
    You've just described a very close friend of mine. She *won't* work. Period. I have no idea why, really. Luckily for her, though, she has her ex support her (who ironically won't work either...) via a meager amount of child support for their 5 year old son. Thanks to her government housing, groceries, and medical care, that "hard-earned" money can go straight toward her booze and partying... :rolleyes:

    She's the type of person that makes me question the validity of our welfare system. But then, I do know a good many people who are on welfare in one form of another and actually work their butts off with employment and school, to better themselves and not be in "need" any longer. I know a couple who have only applied for, and will only accept, government assistance in the form of Medicaid, simply so they can afford to provide their children with medical care. (His employer offers insurance benefits, but at a cost they simply cannot afford. The parents go without medical care for now.) This, I think, is certainly more forgivable than the example I provided above, and is an example of why I believe welfare should be kept around, even if overhauled.
    Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers.--Voltaire

  19. #19
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    Re: Welfare fraud

    In another thread I posted a link which makes a strong case that the government simply doesn't have a right to offer aid to anyone. Ideally, welfare recipients would be paid for some type of work. Someone questioned where the jobs would come from. Well, if the government is paying the money anyhow, the government could attach some type of work requirement along with that money. Are the streets clean? Are the parks tended to properly? Is the grafiti cleaned up along the highway? There are plenty of jobs that need to get done. It just takes some creativity.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  20. #20
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    Re: Welfare fraud

    Well, if the government is paying the money anyhow, the government could attach some type of work requirement along with that money. Are the streets clean? Are the parks tended to properly? Is the grafiti cleaned up along the highway? There are plenty of jobs that need to get done. It just takes some creativity.
    My sentiments exactly. I have always thought that we should bring back the old work programs as a substitute to welfare. The Civilian Conservation Corps being the greatest example. Of course there will always be exceptions, like the physically handicapped.

    My highschool teacher once said that they should make welfare recipients go sit in an empty room for 8 hrs before they got their check.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

 

 
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