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Poll: Will you have sex with black people in SA?

Be advised that this is a public poll: other users can see the choice(s) you selected.

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  1. #1
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    Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    I have made a comment in another thread which is closed for most people on ODN, but due to the controversial nature of what I said I decided to put it here in the open for everybody to see and decide if what I said is really so bad.

    My Claim

    I will not sleep with black men in South Africa because most of them is HIV/Aids positive.

    My Reasoning

    I have been called a "Racist" for making this claim and therefore wish to motivate and provide reasons here for making such a bold claim.

    This site, which is predominantly American seems to think the black people you find in Africa is similar to those you find in America. This is so far from the truth and sometimes I wish some people will simply wake up and smell the coffee.

    I know only one person on ODN who had the privilege of actually visiting South Africa and that is Chad. He might be the only one here that actually understands what I am talking about.

    So to support my claim I offer the following facts.

    Cultural Differences

    Many people simply fail to understand the cultural difference between white people and black people in South Africa. I am not sure what the reasons for this is, but ignorance does come to mind. Pardon me for thinking this, but it is one conclusion I get to when someone calls me a racist for making claims like this.

    White people in South Africa is very much like Americans when it comes to relationships. In fact, I will describe white South Africans as being more traditional and we value relationships as being important. Many of us don't believe in having more than one sexual partner. In fact, we are raised Christians and most of us consider that as a sin. 80% of the white population in SA is in fact Christians.

    If we look at the black cultures in South Africa like the Zulus and Xhosas for instance, you will find that multiple sex partners is totally acceptable. Even President Jacob Zuma has several wifes. Many of them believe that HIV/Aids doesn't really exist and that it is a disease white men invented because they seemingly don't want black people to procreate. Silly I know, but unfortunately that is how things work in South Africa. White people does carry most if not all the blame for everything that goes wrong in SA. Our own president said that taking a shower after sex will prevent you from contracting Aids. Another minister once said eating beetroot will also prevent it.

    So the conclusion is that cultural differences are HUGE when it comes to this. Now if we have a look at black Americans, we can safely say they don't have the same cultural back ground as their African counterparts. They are more civilized and westernized. They adopted the culture of white Americans in many ways, especially when it comes to relationships.

    What does Statistics Say?

    Now, when making such a claim which is so called 'racist', I would like to further demonstrate here that it is not made for no good reason.



    Source: Barbra Machikicho from ASSA2003 (Provincial) AIDS and Demographic Model

    Above clearly shows the truth of the HIV/Aids pandemic in South Africa. South Africa has been called the HIV/Aids capital of the world. It also has been called the rape capital of the world.

    Above statistics however doesn't clearly shows the statistics per ethnic group, so I decided to simply list them here, and only the black population vs the white population.


    The Statistics for 2008 which was carried out by Statistics South Africa shows the following: Changed to reflect the correct statistics

    HIV prevalence by population group, 2008
    Population group Prevalence (%)
    African 13.6
    White 0.3
    Coloured 1.7
    Indian 0.3

    Source: Health System Trust

    Above statistics clearly shows that a very big percentage of black people actually has this disease and therefore it is safe to say that it is a high risk to have sexual intercourse with them.

    Conclusion

    I will still make the same claim and will still say that I won't have sex with black people in South Africa due to the facts above. While it might seem racist to most, I don't see why I should lie about facts.

    I therefore pose this question to everybody reading this thread.

    Will you have sex with black people in South Africa?
    Do you believe it is racist considering the facts above?

    Kindly also make your pick in the poll. Be warned though. The poll is public and you might be considered a racist if you decide to answer "no".
    Last edited by Aspoestertjie; May 6th, 2010 at 03:22 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Of course I wouldn't. Too risky.

  3. #3
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Of course I wouldn't. Too risky.
    Please kindly vote on the poll Dio.

    Also, do you believe making such a claim is racist?
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    Please kindly vote on the poll Dio.
    I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    Also, do you believe making such a claim is racist?
    Of course not.

  5. #5
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    I think it would only be racists if you were including ALL black men. The risk is probably too much for me and to be honest I'm not that attracted to black men. However if I were in SA and wanted to get down with a black guy given the statistics I would have to get to know him. Begin to trust him. Meet his family, ect. . I certainly would be more cautious. Though, I am not giving that a 100% no answer, but not exactly a yes. I would probably ask him to get tested for HIV/AIDS also, and I would use protection until I was comfortable enough with the situation. That's a lot of stipulations and if a guy is willing to go through all that just to have sex, I'd say his intentions aren't all that malicious. Then again, you never know. . .
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  6. #6
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    I'm of the opinion that in a place like South Africa, where STD (not just HIV) are fairly rampant, having casual sex with members of the demographic where STD are most prevalent, even compared with the rest of the population, is irresponsible at best. That's just from the health standpoint, too. I'm sure that some of the cultural differences would come into play as soon as a serious relationship began, and that would open up a whole other can of worms.

    In a country where the blacks openly sing in public about killing whites, I don't know why any white person would want to sleep with those same people.

  7. #7
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I think it would only be racists if you were including ALL black men. The risk is probably too much for me and to be honest I'm not that attracted to black men. However if I were in SA and wanted to get down with a black guy given the statistics I would have to get to know him. Begin to trust him. Meet his family, ect. . I certainly would be more cautious. Though, I am not giving that a 100% no answer, but not exactly a yes. I would probably ask him to get tested for HIV/AIDS also, and I would use protection until I was comfortable enough with the situation. That's a lot of stipulations and if a guy is willing to go through all that just to have sex, I'd say his intentions aren't all that malicious. Then again, you never know. . .
    So if you should go to a night club, meet a black man who you feel attracted to, you will not have sex with him unless he is doing all of that?

    So is it safe to assume your answer is more 'no' than 'yes'?
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    I would say it's safe to assume I wouldn't find a guy like that given what you have shared about black men in SA. Don't get me started about men and nightclubs.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  9. #9
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    I have made a comment in another thread which is closed for most people on ODN, but due to the controversial nature of what I said I decided to put it here in the open for everybody to see and decide if what I said is really so bad.

    My Claim

    I will not sleep with black men in South Africa because most of them is HIV/Aids positive.
    Your stats back up your claim.

    However I do want to point out that your other thread originally just said black men, which because I knew where you lived I understood what you meant (that statically speaking HIV in black men is extremely high in South Africa) But people who don't know where you live would definitely think your comment is racist.

    I do not believe that this OP is a racist comment since you are giving a valid reason why you wish to avoid getting infected.
    What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.

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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by daman View Post
    However I do want to point out that your other thread originally just said black men, which because I knew where you lived I understood what you meant (that statically speaking HIV in black men is extremely high in South Africa) But people who don't know where you live would definitely think your comment is racist.
    And I'LL point out, just as I did in the other thread, that because it was made in PRIVATE forum where everyone KNOWS Aspo, there's not a single reason IN THE WORLD to think she meant it as a racist remark. When one is among people they know and trust, they don't have to filter themselves so much, nor do they have to qualify their every remark. THAT'S the difference between this PUBLIC forum and that PRIVATE one.

  11. #11
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by daman View Post
    Your stats back up your claim.

    However I do want to point out that your other thread originally just said black men, which because I knew where you lived I understood what you meant (that statically speaking HIV in black men is extremely high in South Africa) But people who don't know where you live would definitely think your comment is racist.

    I do not believe that this OP is a racist comment since you are giving a valid reason why you wish to avoid getting infected.
    The forum I made the claim is a closed forum where only certain people are allowed.

    All of those people, including the person who called me racist knows exactly where I come from and the situation in this country. There is no need to state what everybody already knows. In this forum it is different because many new members might not know where I live.

    He also stated that even if I qualify it with the words "South Africa", it will still be racist in his opinion.
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    The forum I made the claim is a closed forum where only certain people are allowed.
    EXACTLY. No Asians or homosexuals allowed.

    j/k



    But seriously though, you have to appreciate the context of remarks just as you have to appreciate the audience. If you had said it here, publicly, then you no doubt would have added "in South Africa" (just as you have so many times before) for people who don't know you.

  13. #13
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    I know Aspo does not try to make racist remarks. She is a very nice person whose posts I enjoy, in my opinion. And if everyone in a forum knows her then they would probably understand. I guess I didn't come to the conclusion that everyone would know everyone that well in certain forums. Sorry to veer of this topic.

    I do think most people will agree with Aspo's OP here though in public forum.
    What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.

  14. #14
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    For starters... the statistics you quote are not what you claim them to be.

    79.6% is the number of South Africans who are black, not the number of black south African's who have HIV. Your source is simply a list of racial breakdown in various regions of the country. It may be an honest mistake, but its a big one.

    I found this site with the kind of statistics you are after...
    http://www.avert.org/safricastats.htm

    HIV prevalence by population group, 2008
    Population group Prevalence (%)
    African 13.6
    White 0.3
    Coloured 1.7
    Indian 0.3

    The table also reveals that women are about 50% more likely to be infected than men are, 7.9% vs 13.6%. This is easily explained by the sex practices you mention as well because it is more easily transmitted from men to women.

    I do find your OP to have racist elements. They are understandable given the circumstances, not entirely unjustified by the circumstances, but they also betray the classic elements of racism and remind me of historical arguments by plantation owners in US history talking about how "these blacks" are this that or the other and nothing like us civilized people and so on.

    Humans are humans. Yes there are certainly cultural differences but they are not determined by skin color or genetics. Blacks in SA are no different than blacks anywhere else beyond the fact their culture is unique. I'm sure SA white culture is also unique and that you are different than an american white in some ways. This appeal you make that ~"they are different than your blacks" strikes me as an appeal to embrace racism even if it is limited in scale. Coupled with the misinformation it is pretty classic of the kind of thing that led my countrymen to put blacks in bondage for so long.

    That said, I would not have sex with a random black person in South Africa. Setting aside that I'm married, I would not have sex with any random person of any race or culture. I would only have sex with someone I know personally and have come to trust and that would include a conversation about VD and such. I would be more concerned about a south African black person because they do indeed have a heightened risk of aids, especially compared to other countries. It is a very real and considerable danger and it is much higher with a black partner than a white one.
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    For starters... the statistics you quote are not what you claim them to be.

    79.6% is the number of South Africans who are black, not the number of black south African's who have HIV. Your source is simply a list of racial breakdown in various regions of the country. It may be an honest mistake, but its a big one.

    I found this site with the kind of statistics you are after...
    http://www.avert.org/safricastats.htm

    HIV prevalence by population group, 2008
    Population group Prevalence (%)
    African 13.6
    White 0.3
    Coloured 1.7
    Indian 0.3
    I thought there might be a mistake. I am sorry and will concede that I read it the wrong way around.

    The table also reveals that women are about 50% more likely to be infected than men are, 7.9% vs 13.6%. This is easily explained by the sex practices you mention as well because it is more easily transmitted from men to women.
    I think it is the other way around though. It is easier spread from women to men. Apparently, and I am talking under correction here, the biological make-up of women makes the breeding of germs more favourable for HIV/Aids. Some studies also shows that men who are circumcised generally have a lower risk of contracting the disease. This is however still being investigated and I believe it is not a real fact just yet.

    I do find your OP to have racist elements. They are understandable given the circumstances, not entirely unjustified by the circumstances, but they also betray the classic elements of racism and remind me of historical arguments by plantation owners in US history talking about how "these blacks" are this that or the other and nothing like us civilized people and so on.
    My claim is not that blacks are this or that. My claim is very specific in that it refers to the statistics and that those statistics are very true as far as my claim goes.

    If I said that I don't want to sleep with blacks because they freak me out. Or because I simply don't like them due to their skin colour, that would have been racist. And it would be justified calling me one too if I said that. Yet, what I said is fully backed up with statistics.

    My honest opinion is that people simply are way too sensitive when it comes to statements of race. Even, like in this case, when statements are fully backed up with statistics and solid reasons for that claim, it still is racist.

    You also say that it is justified and understandable. I believe you are contradicting yourself somewhat. I am either racist, or I am not racist by making such a claim. So which is it?

    Humans are humans. Yes there are certainly cultural differences but they are not determined by skin color or genetics. Blacks in SA are no different than blacks anywhere else beyond the fact their culture is unique.
    Do you claim they are the same? If so, do you mind supporting that?

    I'm sure SA white culture is also unique and that you are different than an american white in some ways. This appeal you make that ~"they are different than your blacks" strikes me as an appeal to embrace racism even if it is limited in scale. Coupled with the misinformation it is pretty classic of the kind of thing that led my countrymen to put blacks in bondage for so long.
    Of course white South Africans are a hell of a lot different than whites else where in the world. My culture and my way of living is miles from that of Americans in many ways. I know my culture to really doubt the American way of living, just like they doubt my way of living. I believe we are very much different although in some areas we might be more similar. I believe we are very different than white Europeans as well. Does believing that there are differences in cultures and countries' ethnic groups make me a racist? I don't believe so, but would like you to prove me wrong.

    That said, I would not have sex with a random black person in South Africa. Setting aside that I'm married, I would not have sex with any random person of any race or culture. I would only have sex with someone I know personally and have come to trust and that would include a conversation about VD and such. I would be more concerned about a south African black person because they do indeed have a heightened risk of aids, especially compared to other countries. It is a very real and considerable danger and it is much higher with a black partner than a white one.
    So does above statement make you a racist now?
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    I don't think it's racist to say "Subculture X in region Y tends to engage in risky behaviors A, B, and C."

    I don't think it's racist to say, "People in the same ethnic group as subculture X who live in region Z tends not to engage in risky behaviors A, B, and C."

    Perhaps there's some hidden racist agenda in Asp's post, but the statistical argument does not strike me as indicative of racism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    I found this site with the kind of statistics you are after...
    http://www.avert.org/safricastats.htm

    HIV prevalence by population group, 2008
    Population group Prevalence (%)
    African 13.6
    White 0.3
    Coloured 1.7
    Indian 0.3
    From these statistics, you're still ~45x more likely to get HIV from an African person than from a White person.

    The table also reveals that women are about 50% more likely to be infected than men are, 7.9% vs 13.6%. This is easily explained by the sex practices you mention as well because it is more easily transmitted from men to women.
    Except that we don't know the covariance between sex and race relative to HIV infection. Just because women are more likely to be infected by men doesn't mean that African women are more likely to be infected than African men (unless sex and race are independent relative to HIV infection).
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  17. #17
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    EXACTLY. No Asians or homosexuals allowed.

    j/k



    But seriously though, you have to appreciate the context of remarks just as you have to appreciate the audience. If you had said it here, publicly, then you no doubt would have added "in South Africa" (just as you have so many times before) for people who don't know you.
    Oh yeah, I know for sure that if I said it here like I said it in the closed forum, I would have been called racist without a doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by daman View Post
    I know Aspo does not try to make racist remarks. She is a very nice person whose posts I enjoy, in my opinion. And if everyone in a forum knows her then they would probably understand. I guess I didn't come to the conclusion that everyone would know everyone that well in certain forums. Sorry to veer of this topic.

    I do think most people will agree with Aspo's OP here though in public forum.
    Daman, you also know me for very long now and knows exactly where I come from. In a closed forum with most of the participants being people who know me quite well there is no need to state the obvious.

    I always have and always will state that I am from SA when in a public forum because I believe my circumstances and the way I react to certain things are much different than most people living abroad.
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    I thought there might be a mistake. I am sorry and will concede that I read it the wrong way around.
    Cool.

    I think it is the other way around though. It is easier spread from women to men. Apparently, and I am talking under correction here, the biological make-up of women makes the breeding of germs more favourable for HIV/Aids. Some studies also shows that men who are circumcised generally have a lower risk of contracting the disease. This is however still being investigated and I believe it is not a real fact just yet.
    HIV is transmitted by body fluid contact and must get inside the skin. I could put a dab of HIV on my skin and I would not get aids. It must get inside my bloodstream by contact with an open wound. It need not be large at all, a tiny fissure in the skin is sufficient.

    Women are more unacceptable to transmission because the interior of the vagina is more likely to have fissures than a penis is. The act of sex (especially rape) can easily cause such fissures. Anal sex is especially dangerous because it is even more likely to cause such tiny wounds.

    This does not mean you are safe if you see no such wounds, they could well be too small to see and still be a danger.

    My claim is not that blacks are this or that. My claim is very specific in that it refers to the statistics and that those statistics are very true as far as my claim goes.
    Actually your statistics were wrong. Most black men do not have HIV which was your claim.

    If I said that I don't want to sleep with blacks because they freak me out. Or because I simply don't like them due to their skin colour, that would have been racist. And it would be justified calling me one too if I said that. Yet, what I said is fully backed up with statistics.
    Your OP includes an entire section on morality and relationships contrasting them to the more reserved white Christian moral views. You devoted far more words to that than the odds of a black man having HIV. It betrays a sense that blacks are bad and immoral people, unlike us whites who have decent values. That strikes me as racist.

    My honest opinion is that people simply are way too sensitive when it comes to statements of race. Even, like in this case, when statements are fully backed up with statistics and solid reasons for that claim, it still is racist.
    Even when the statistics are grossly misrepresented? Even when dispersions of their inherent moral character are made? I don't think you are a hateful person, but I do think your posts display a racial animosity that goes beyond simply looking at the facts. It is understandable, SA certainly has lots of blacks who are clearly racist and pose a danger to the white population. But none the less there is racism in your posts (in my opinion), justified or no.

    You also say that it is justified and understandable. I believe you are contradicting yourself somewhat. I am either racist, or I am not racist by making such a claim. So which is it?
    A person can believe themselves not to be racist and still be racist. A person can harbor no intended racism and yet make a grossly racist remark. That's the tricky thing about it, racism is not the mark of evil or some such. Its part of human nature to see others as fundamentally different than ourselves and to form a kind or rivalry with those different people.

    If a black man raped me, I may well be justifiably racist and prejudice against black people. I may fear any given black man I meet. Its still racism. You are pre judging an individual based on the actions of someone else who shares their skin color. Not having sex with an individual black person because some other black people have HIV is racism. It may also be wise none the less.

    Do you claim they are the same? If so, do you mind supporting that?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_variation
    The large majority of observed genetic variation occurs within a population in any geographic region and not between populations in different regions

    Which means that if you hold to a local group, you can find a lot of individual differences, but if you look at the larger genetic picture, human genetics is very consistent.

    A 10-year study published in April 2009 analyzed the patterns of variation at 1,327 DNA markers of 121 African populations, 4 African American populations, and 60 non-African populations.[25][26] The research showed that there is more human genetic diversity in Africa than anywhere else on Earth. The genetic structure of Africans was traced to 14 ancestral population clusters and the ancestral origin of humans was determined to probably be located in southern Africa, near the border of Namibia and South Africa.
    Those SA Blacks... are most likely the progenitors of the whole human race. They are also the ancestors of many american blacks in a much more direct fashion.

    Of course white South Africans are a hell of a lot different than whites else where in the world. My culture and my way of living is miles from that of Americans in many ways. I know my culture to really doubt the American way of living, just like they doubt my way of living. I believe we are very much different although in some areas we might be more similar. I believe we are very different than white Europeans as well. Does believing that there are differences in cultures and countries' ethnic groups make me a racist? I don't believe so, but would like you to prove me wrong.
    If you then claimed that someone would make a good or bad sex partner based on the fact they were different then I would say you are racist.

    While no doubt cultures differ, each and every culture is composed of human beings, all of whom are quite capable of changing their culture or set of beliefs and behaviors.

    So does above statement make you a racist now?
    No. I would treat each individual sex partner as an individual regardless of their skin tone or cultural background. I would not make a decision to sleep with them based on their race or how likely their culture group is to have aids. If I were in the habit of having random sex partners, then I would be wise to "play the odds" but it would none the less be racist of me to do so based on skin color.

    ---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    I don't think it's racist to say "Subculture X in region Y tends to engage in risky behaviors A, B, and C."
    Nor do I.

    I don't think it's racist to say, "People in the same ethnic group as subculture X who live in region Z tends not to engage in risky behaviors A, B, and C."
    Nor do I.

    Perhaps there's some hidden racist agenda in Asp's post, but the statistical argument does not strike me as indicative of racism.
    If there is any hidden agenda it is to reinforce her own beliefs that the black majority in SA is worthy of fear and derision.

    From these statistics, you're still ~45x more likely to get HIV from an African person than from a White person.
    True. I am also infinitely more likely to win the lottery than if I don't play the lottery. That does not make playing the lottery a good idea.

    That said, 13+% is a very significant risk and dying of aids in SA is a significant danger because the HIV rate is so high. You would be wise to be extremely careful and selective of your sex partners. Aspo's post goes pretty well beyond that however.

    Except that we don't know the covariance between sex and race relative to HIV infection. Just because women are more likely to be infected by men doesn't mean that African women are more likely to be infected than African men (unless sex and race are independent relative to HIV infection).
    True, I only brought it up as an interesting figure from the statistics and one that I thought Aspo might e surprised by (and she was). She clearly (and again justifiably) fears men more than women and so she would expect men to be more likely to have aids than women. Chances are good the sex range is fairly consistent across race but perhaps not. I would think if anything it would be more likely that the black population is more heavily favored HIV in women due to the sex practices she describes as being culturally normative. Each black man could infect many women while each women is less likely to infect many men.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  19. #19
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    HIV is transmitted by body fluid contact and must get inside the skin. I could put a dab of HIV on my skin and I would not get aids. It must get inside my bloodstream by contact with an open wound. It need not be large at all, a tiny fissure in the skin is sufficient.

    Women are more unacceptable to transmission because the interior of the vagina is more likely to have fissures than a penis is. The act of sex (especially rape) can easily cause such fissures. Anal sex is especially dangerous because it is even more likely to cause such tiny wounds.

    This does not mean you are safe if you see no such wounds, they could well be too small to see and still be a danger.
    I still disagree here, but will not take you on as it is not what this debate is about.

    Actually your statistics were wrong. Most black men do not have HIV which was your claim.
    In fact most black people yes, not only men. But it is safe to say that most people in SA that has HIV/Aids are blacks and not whites.

    Even the statistics you showed backs that up. Or do you disagree?

    Your OP includes an entire section on morality and relationships contrasting them to the more reserved white Christian moral views. You devoted far more words to that than the odds of a black man having HIV. It betrays a sense that blacks are bad and immoral people, unlike us whites who have decent values. That strikes me as racist.
    So you claim that if any person seems to be more proud of his/her culture it makes them racist?

    Also, do you disagree that their particular life style is increasing their chances of contracting HIV/Aids. Because essentially that is what I said in the cultural differences.

    It is clear from their life style that having more than one sex partner is totally acceptable. That fact is backed up by simply looking at the life style of our President.

    So mentioning that and backing it up with facts is somehow racist? How?

    In fact. It is against the law for white men in SA to have more than one wife but it is totally acceptable for a black man to have more than one wife. Who are really the racists here?

    Even when the statistics are grossly misrepresented? Even when dispersions of their inherent moral character are made? I don't think you are a hateful person, but I do think your posts display a racial animosity that goes beyond simply looking at the facts. It is understandable, SA certainly has lots of blacks who are clearly racist and pose a danger to the white population. But none the less there is racism in your posts (in my opinion), justified or no.
    Then why if it is so grossly misrepresented would you not vote yes?

    A person can believe themselves not to be racist and still be racist. A person can harbor no intended racism and yet make a grossly racist remark. That's the tricky thing about it, racism is not the mark of evil or some such. Its part of human nature to see others as fundamentally different than ourselves and to form a kind or rivalry with those different people.
    I must say, with this I whole heartedly agree.

    If a black man raped me, I may well be justifiably racist and prejudice against black people. I may fear any given black man I meet. Its still racism. You are pre judging an individual based on the actions of someone else who shares their skin color. Not having sex with an individual black person because some other black people have HIV is racism. It may also be wise none the less.
    I think calling it racism is harsh. Racism to me is expressing hate towards a certain group of people or denying them certain rights.

    Why doesn't people call men who prefer blonds to brunettes racist as well? The reason is because they have certain preferences, which is not racist in the least. To me there is a real difference between prejudice as blatant racism. Fact is, society has been conditioned to be overly sensitive to white people's remarks towards black people.

    If a black man should make a statement similar to mine I can almost guarantee you that he will not be called racist, but simply be called as someone with a strong preference to a certain kind of woman.

    To me there are clear double standards (at least in SA) concerning racist remarks being dished out everywhere.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_variation
    The large majority of observed genetic variation occurs within a population in any geographic region and not between populations in different regions

    Which means that if you hold to a local group, you can find a lot of individual differences, but if you look at the larger genetic picture, human genetics is very consistent.

    Those SA Blacks... are most likely the progenitors of the whole human race. They are also the ancestors of many american blacks in a much more direct fashion.
    Oh my word. Where did I claim there are genetic differences? How does this relate to the cultural differences I mentioned?

    To me there is a huge difference between cultural differences, the way people live and their moral and religious background compared to their genetic differences. Nowhere have I claimed that there are genetic differences between people. My claim is clear. There are behavioral and cultural differences that leads people to be more susceptible to HIV/Aids infections.

    I will call this a Strawman. Please don't attack me on claims I didn't make.

    If you then claimed that someone would make a good or bad sex partner based on the fact they were different then I would say you are racist.

    While no doubt cultures differ, each and every culture is composed of human beings, all of whom are quite capable of changing their culture or set of beliefs and behaviors.
    Wait a minute. Do you claim that one can change a culture? I have read up on cultures a lot because it is the one issue South Africa has been struggling with for ages now. If we can change cultures, we can truly become the so called 'rainbow nation'. Unfortunately we have failed in that and there is no hope in the coming future for that. So if you have a model that one can follow for changing cultures and beliefs I would like you to support that. I would love to read up on it more then.

    No. I would treat each individual sex partner as an individual regardless of their skin tone or cultural background. I would not make a decision to sleep with them based on their race or how likely their culture group is to have aids. If I were in the habit of having random sex partners, then I would be wise to "play the odds" but it would none the less be racist of me to do so based on skin color.
    But you said this Sigfried:-

    That said, I would not have sex with a random black person in South Africa.
    I would be more concerned about a south African black person because they do indeed have a heightened risk of aids, especially compared to other countries.
    It is a very real and considerable danger and it is much higher with a black partner than a white one.


    What you said above is exactly what I said, yet that doesn't make you a racist?
    >>]Aspoestertjie[<<

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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    In fact most black people yes, not only men. But it is safe to say that most people in SA that has HIV/Aids are blacks and not whites.

    Even the statistics you showed backs that up. Or do you disagree?
    I do not disagree.

    That said your claim was...
    "I will not sleep with black men in South Africa because most of them is HIV/Aids positive."

    That is clearly indicating more than 50% of black men in SA have aids, not that most people with aids in SA are black. Those are two very different claims. The second claim could be made if there were only 3 cases of aids in SA and two were black. It would have no impact on your question.

    So you claim that if any person seems to be more proud of his/her culture it makes them racist?
    It is not. However saying "My culture is superior and therefore I will not relate with individuals from another culture for that reason." would be racist.

    Also, do you disagree that their particular life style is increasing their chances of contracting HIV/Aids.
    I do not. Risky behavior results in a higher negative outcome over time on average.

    It is clear from their life style that having more than one sex partner is totally acceptable. That fact is backed up by simply looking at the life style of our President.
    http://allafrica.com/stories/200902120749.html

    I resided, worked and studied in South Africa for a considerable period, mainly in the Eastern Cape Province, but interacted widely with a wide cross section of this very diverse and complex country's peoples. The fact of the matter is that the Zulu as a nationality, are some of the most urbanised, westernised, and indeed cosmopolitan Africans. In fact, the practice of polygamy for all its strengths and controversies is an exception, rather than the norm amongst the Zulu people.

    Anecdotal, true but I could find no hard statistics on this and most sources seemed to indicate it was the exception more than the rule.

    Furthermore polygamy does not seem to have a very strong correlation with HIV infection.

    The argument that polygamy breeds HIV and AIDS is to say the least, unscientific. For instance in Uganda, our Muslim community is in the main polygamous. However, the rate of HIV prevalence in this same community is less than half of the national average!

    Furthermore, most of the Islamic Middle East practices polygamy. This social system is the norm in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Yemen, etc, and yet they have the lowest incidence of HIV AIDS in the world.

    So mentioning that and backing it up with facts is somehow racist? How?
    Because your facts are wrong, misleading, and come across with a kind of aggressive negative portrayal of black people in your country. In each of your posts I've done some further reading (because they were provocative and interesting) and in every case I found you only presented one side of the story, and often left out important details as to the context of the events or the two sided nature of the conflict. Any single post would not convince me but taken in total they portray someone who has an agenda to discredit a rival group. Deserving or no that is the portrait you present.

    I've no doubt that in your country there are murderous black racists and that some black people there have terrible moral practices and live in great ignorance. But you make out like that is the norm rather than only a significant sized problem. When the facts are wrong and the case is one sided, I call bias. In this case racial bias.

    I'd add that it was a question you posed of us, not one I came forward to you with unbidden with.

    In fact. It is against the law for white men in SA to have more than one wife but it is totally acceptable for a black man to have more than one wife. Who are really the racists here?
    Both are clearly racist in my judgement.

    Then why if it is so grossly misrepresented would you not vote yes?
    Because my honest answer is that I would simply not make the judgement based only on the information that the person was a black south African. I would answer "maybe" but that is not a choice you offered.

    I must say, with this I whole heartedly agree.
    Were not all that far apart, its just that on a debate board... well I'm going for the points of disagreement. If you ask, "is this racist?" I just give my honest answer and explain why.

    I think calling it racism is harsh. Racism to me is expressing hate towards a certain group of people or denying them certain rights.
    Fair enough, but its a question you posed. You didn't ask "What would you call my attitude if you were trying to be polite and fair?" you asked "Do you believe it is racist considering the facts above?"

    Racism is about making a judgement of an individual based on a conception of that persons race in general. Deciding not to have sex with someone because they re black and because blacks have higher HIV rates is racist by definition. Its not oppression or slavery or a great injustice, but it is racism.

    Example: If I judged that you are wrong because women tend to not be strong debaters and you are a woman that would be sexist and a logical fallacy. To judge not to have sex with a given person because black people have more HIV and they are black is racist.

    Why doesn't people call men who prefer blonds to brunettes racist as well?
    No. Not having sex with black people because you find their skin tone unattractive is not racist.

    Fact is, society has been conditioned to be overly sensitive to white people's remarks towards black people.
    That is because white people enslaved and exploited black people. Tends to make folks a might bit sensitive. Doesn't make it right, just makes it expected. But I agree, one should not let past events determine current truths.

    I am not sensitive. I have no reason to care if you are racist or not. I like your posts, I like you in so much as I know you. But if your posts strike me as having a racist motive, I'll let you know that's what I see. I can't say you are a racist, I don't know you, but I can say that what I see is a pattern from you that to me resembles propaganda like.

    If a black man should make a statement similar to mine I can almost guarantee you that he will not be called racist, but simply be called as someone with a strong preference to a certain kind of woman.
    Perhaps, but I would call him a racist.

    To me there are clear double standards (at least in SA) concerning racist remarks being dished out everywhere.
    Of that I have no doubt. But that doesn't change whether what you said or what you think really is racist or not.

    Oh my word. Where did I claim there are genetic differences? How does this relate to the cultural differences I mentioned?
    You didn't make that claim, but I was arguing that humans are fundamentally the same, that you could raise a black SA baby in an american white home and he would not be all that similar to a black raised in a SA black home. Therefore any individual black man you may meet in SA may be perfectly moral, kind, worthy of love, and safe to have sex with in so much as any american white woman I meet may well be a psycho bitch from hell with every STD known to man.

    To me there is a huge difference between cultural differences, the way people live and their moral and religious background compared to their genetic differences. Nowhere have I claimed that there are genetic differences between people. My claim is clear. There are behavioral and cultural differences that leads people to be more susceptible to HIV/Aids infections.
    Ok, I agree. But I also say that any individual of a given culture is not necessarily typical of the average of the culture. to judge an individual as if that were true is what racism is.

    Wait a minute. Do you claim that one can change a culture? I have read up on cultures a lot because it is the one issue South Africa has been struggling with for ages now. If we can change cultures, we can truly become the so called 'rainbow nation'. Unfortunately we have failed in that and there is no hope in the coming future for that. So if you have a model that one can follow for changing cultures and beliefs I would like you to support that. I would love to read up on it more then.
    Are we all Egyptians? Are we all Romans? Cultures come and go, they change over time. America of today is not the America of the founding fathers. South africa is different than it was 1000 years ago. you yourself said SA whites were different than american whites yet we come from the same root culture. Cultures change. What doesn't change is that no one can dictate how it will change.

    But you said this Sigfried:-

    That said, I would not have sex with a random black person in South Africa.
    I would be more concerned about a south African black person because they do indeed have a heightened risk of aids, especially compared to other countries.
    It is a very real and considerable danger and it is much higher with a black partner than a white one.


    What you said above is exactly what I said, yet that doesn't make you a racist?
    [/QUOTE]

    Sure, lets break it down....

    That said, I would not have sex with a random black person in South Africa.
    Response: I would also not have sex with any random person of any nationality. The question you posed was specific and so was my answer.

    I would be more concerned about a south African black person because they do indeed have a heightened risk of aids, especially compared to other countries.
    Being concerned and refusing to have sex with someone are two different things. Of course concern is warranted, but I would judge the person individually to address that concern. I would not make a blanket refusal based on their race and nothing more as you indicated you would.

    It is a very real and considerable danger and it is much higher with a black partner than a white one.
    A simple statement of fact. But it would not dictate that I refuse to associate with any given SA black person.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

 

 
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