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Poll: Will you have sex with black people in SA?

Be advised that this is a public poll: other users can see the choice(s) you selected.

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  1. #101
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    And you have the nerve to try and say that "phobia" is not clearly alluded to?
    It was an example of how behavior is affected by experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    I was asking about Sly and her relations with black men. You jump in and talk about how you are terrified of spiders, and mention a movie that is named after the spider phobia. I also think it is interesting how I am talking about black men, yet you use spiders as a behavior example.
    Here again, I mentioned my fear of spiders in relation to her distaste for black guys as an example of how behavior (and perception) are affected by experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    So... why exactly did you bring up your extreme fear of spiders up then...?
    Because I NEVER miss a chance to remind people that I fear spiders almost as much as I hate them (which is just a little less than how much their anatomy fascinates me).
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    And can we agree that Albert's fear of the rat was irrational? I mean the only reason he feared the rat is because of the loud noise being made. That has nothing to do with the rat.
    Albert's fear wasn't at all irrational. You're applying the rationality of an adult mind to a toddler. In Albert's mind, it was entirely rational. He didn't know the noise was being made by scientists. All he knew was that the mouse and the noise were related.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Ahhh... so it's a preference now. I suppose you will try say that you have a "preference" to be terrified by spiders.
    I could certainly invest time and energy in overcoming my admitted arachnaphobia, but to be blunt: I don't want to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Okay, so if Sly is not a racist, then what do you call a person that claims that because of her experiences of at least 2 (or higher, still not sure about exactly how many) different black men, deems ALL black men ANYWHERE unacceptable as a potential mate?
    Reasonably more justified in their preference than someone with no experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    At the very least, can we agree that Sly is being irrational? Why or why not?

    And please, be specific here.
    No. I can't agree to that because I genuinely do not believe it to be irrational. I've leveled the argument for WHY I don't believe it to be irrational. She's had a bad experience, and like anyone anywhere, she defaults to that experience in examining the subjects relating to it. In this instance, she's had ZERO positive experience with black people, isn't personally familiar with anyone who (to my knowledge at least) HAS had a positive experience with one, and so defaults to that experience when the question arises. What, exactly, is so irrational or illogical about that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    So exactly how many of them are bad? And how many bad experiences with a specific type of race is enough to write them all off? And how are we to determine Sly's role in these bad experiences, or are we to assume that she contributed in no way shape or form to them?
    Why does it matter how many of them are bad? Or to ask it another way, since you're arguing that, as you put it, "She hasn't been with every single one", then why SHOULD someone have to indulge each and every one of a set to make a judgement? Because of exceptions? Should we also strike down Megan's Law because hey, even though sex offenders have a recidivism rate of roughly 70%, it's still not 100%? By that same logic, should also strike down banning guns in schools because not EVERYONE who owns a gun goes to school and kills people? In fact, I would go so far as to argue that according to your logic, the number of people who HAVE committed felonies with firearms in schools is so staggeringly small that we SHOULD have no restrictions there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Relevance? You can be a racist and have friends and family that are of the race you just so happen to hate. Strange, sure. Hypocritical, obviously. But it happens. Here is an example (skip to 7 minutes in to see the White Power Skinhead meet up with his Latino friend). This is just an example to deflate the idea that you're not a racist just because you have minority friends and family. I am obviously not saying that either of you two are WP skins or even close. But certainly racists.
    I wasn't saying that solely because I gots da blood wid mutha natu'a's nat'ral night camo, that I'm not racist. Far from it. I've admitted in the past on ODN that I'm not particularly fond of black people, asians, liberals, the far right, or people with names I can't take seriously. What I was issuing with that, was that Syl, who isn't related, took no issue with being around those people socially (talking to them and hanging out), which wouldn't exactly be consistent with a racist person (who, if they hated black people, probably wouldn't want to hang out with them).
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    So perhaps it's not a phobia, per say, I will give you that. But irrational. And that's bad enough on its own.
    Not that it's relevant, but why is being rational a "good" thing? And why is irrationality a "bad" thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    I also never said "fat chick", I said morbidly obese. I am attracted to MO women because I am not capable of being attracted to them. They disgust me as far as sex goes. I have no control over that. I could have had sex with 100 different MO women when I was single. But I didn't. I even had oppertunities to have sex with MO women, but I said no thanks. It is an intuitive preferance. I have nothing against MO women at all. I make NO judgements on their character. I simply would not--and it is very possible that I could not--have sex with them.
    Let me rewrite that paragraph to concretely illustrate my point:

    I am not attracted to black women because I am not capable of being attracted to them. They disgust me as far as sex goes. I have no control over that. I could have had sex with 100 different black women when I was single. But I didn't. I even had oppertunities to have sex with black women, but I said no thanks. It is an intuitive preferance. I have nothing against black women at all. I make NO judgements on their character. I simply would not--and it is very possible that I could not--have sex with them.

    Sounds a little racists doesn't it? If I changed it to "jewish" it would sound antisemitic. But let's just push forward.

    I have nothing against MO women at all.
    That's fine.
    They disgust me as far as sex goes.
    There's a problem. You have nothing against them...they just disgust you. But that's okay. But when Syl says that the prospect of a black guy disgusts her, you take issue with it. This is what I was referring to when I said you were creating a case of special pleading. It's okay for thee, but not for me (or in this case, her-ee).

    Now let's continue:

    I could have had sex with 100 different MO women when I was single. But I didn't. I even had oppertunities to have sex with MO women, but I said no thanks.
    Right. You actively avoided the prospect of "slappin the fat and ridin the wave". Not because you're prejudiced. But because the idea is disgusting to you. So disgusting that you admit that it's entirely possible you COULD NOT bring yourself to do such a thing.

    It is an intuitive preferance.
    Would you say that preference is rational or irrational? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    I also find it oh-so-amusing how you left gay men out of your reply. Gee. I wonder why. Nice try though, at trying to slip that point under the radar. Again, it's simple: I would not have sex with a man because I am not attracted to men. The end.
    There's no mystery there. Why bother with an additional example when there's a perfectly acceptable one for the taking already under fire? But I'll go ahead and sally forth anyways. You're not attracted to men. Why? Do you have control over that? If you do, then what reasonable answer do you have for why you're not prejudiced for trying to youtube another guy's myspace? If you don't, then why is your inability to control your physiological impulses (or inhibitions) any better, more rational, or more appropriate than someone who HAS experienced it and levels the same degree of judgement, but does so based on experience rather than an issue that is, admittedly, beyond their control? In other words, what makes it better to say, "I'm not attracted to black men because, for whatever reason, I never have been" than to say, "I'm not attracted to black men because past experience has been, to put it politely, lackluster"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    But tell me Hyde, am I homophobic or do I hate gays because I am a heterosexual? Do I make any judgements of character on gay men because I am not sexually aroused by men?
    Not to nitpick, but it could argued that yes, you are making judgements by nature of your activities. Much the same as a Christian, by virtue of being a Christian, is making a judgement about Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. It's not a position I would often argue, but it's there nonetheless if you care to think about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Again, I said morbidly obese. That fat chick thing is not very nice, man.
    Is that a joke? You come on all high and mighty, throwing around how we're racist and then say I'M not being nice? Morbidly obese women ARE FAT. They're fat. I'm not gonna sanitise the issue for the sake of sparing feelings. How you can be disgusted by them sexually, but still manage to get offended over me saying what they are monosyllabically is beyond me. It's not like I'm making any judgements about their character. I'm describing their physique.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Witty attempt at ridicule with the whole moist thing, I might add. It implies that I have a vagina. How emasculating! It also works great with past insults of yours thrown my way, you know, about being a sissy with a small penis.
    While I do pride myself on both my wit and memory, I must've really said something impressive for you to remember it when I have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you should laugh more at the attempts to inject humor in an otherwise serious discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    It would be perfectly acceptable if someone told me they were not sexually attracted to black people (assuming it were true). The problem is, we are not talking about that, Hyde. We are talking about writing off an entire group of people based on some past bad experiences, which is irrational. You're grasping at straws at this point...sheesh... as if the smug insult were not telling enough of this...
    Emphasis mine. Yes we ARE talking about that. The difference is that you deem it perfectly acceptable to write off an entire group with ZERO justification while taking issue with a change of heart based on experience. And so far, you've yet to provide any actual reason as to why that's an acceptable stance to take.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Wait. So... in the past Sly was attracted to black men. Now she's not? Kind of how there are those gay guys like Richard Cohen that "thought" they were gay and got "cured" and now they are "straight"?
    Being a believer that hetero/homo is a biological, rather than an environmental issue, I'd call that problematic in that it obfuscates the issue with an clear logical gap. We're not talking about whether someone is, from what I assume we can both agree on, is an issue beyond their control. We're talking about going from "Not having a problem with that feature" to "Having a problem with that feature" which is a strictly environmental issue (as the Albert experiment demonstrates).
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    How you believe Sly's position to be either rational or logical is beyond me. The only thing I can come up with at this point is the white elephant in the room of your personal bias as her boyfriend, so you are going to stick up for her, rational or not it seems.
    Ad hominem notwithstanding, Dio (if not me personally) would be the first to tell you that I DO often leap into a thread to defend her a number of reasons, the fact that we're involved being only one. Would you react any differently? I may not be the brightest guy in the room, or the most moral man on the planet, or the wisest or most travelled, but loyalty is important to me. I stand by the people I care about, regardless of whether they're right or wrong on an issue and regardless of the outcome.[COLOR="red"]
    Last edited by Mr. Hyde; May 17th, 2010 at 07:12 PM. Reason: double post
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  2. #102
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAdams View Post
    This sounds really racist to me. Why is this even a question? I choose who I have sex with based on whether or not I love the other person or not. I dont pick a sex partner based on race. Lots of white people have AIDS or HIV too. It is the government of South Africa's fault that allowed this type of stuff to happen to its people.

    Its sounds like you have issues finding a partner. You should have sex because you love the person, not just cuz or becuase thier black. What if I said that I wont have sex with white people? Lots of white people have AIDS too, so do alot of people. AIDS should not be a problem in the first place.
    Would you have sex with someone of the same sex?? If not, why not?

    ---------- Post added at 08:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAdams View Post
    She is clearly racist. The same rights should extend to all people, you should be able to have sex with whoever the hell you want. She is making race the #1 determinent of who she sleeps with. If I was a black south african (without AIDS), I wouldnt want to have sex with a white women either (not for any particular reason other than they arent attractive to me).
    Are you not doing the exact same thing you are accusing Aspo of? You are basing your reasons for not having sex with a particular race on the color of their skin.. How is this different then Aspo's reasons?

    When you judge someone you should consider yourself colorblind.
    Then you should consider yourself color blind as well if you were a SA black man who would not sleep with white women. You mentioned in another post that your reason was because of racism that there's a lot of racist in SA.

    I understand that lots of black men in South Africa have AIDS, but that doesnt mean you still cant be civl to them.
    So in order to be civil you must be willing to have sex with someone?
    I also wouldnt call 13% "most". I would actually say that a large majority dont have the disease. This is complete generalization of the black people of South Africa. She also continually refutes that she is a racist, if you arent racist then why say this so many times? Infact she does this 4 times...
    Uhhhh could it be that people are calling her racist? I do not sleep with men so does that make me heterophobic?

    4 out 5 people in South Africa with AIDS are women. The occurence is ever increasing too. AIDS is bad no matter who has it.
    So you would sleep with women in SA even tho the majority of people with HIV (if that's even correct) are women? Would you not be cautious and not avoid sleeping with the group that covers the majority of people with HIV?
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  3. #103
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    I see a few problems in this thread.

    Firstly, everyone has a preference, something that attracts them to the opposite sex/same sex/both sexes. Saying, "I'm not attracted to black people" - "Why?" - "I just never have been attracted to them" is NOT racist.

    If you say, "I'm not attracted to black people" - "Why?" - "Because, the one's I know are wife beaters". This can be perceived to be racism, as you are generalizing an entire race in a derogative manner and therefore prejudging people you haven't met which would make you guilty of bigotry.

    The definition of racism is:

    rac∑ism (rā′siz′əm)

    noun

    1. belief in or doctrine asserting racial differences in character, intelligence, etc. and the superiority of one race over another or others: racist doctrine also, typically, seeks to maintain the supposed purity of a race or the races
    2. any program or practice of racial discrimination, segregation, etc., specif., such a program or practice that upholds the political or economic domination of one race over another or others
    3. feelings or actions of hatred and bigotry toward a person or persons because of their race
    As it was said earlier in the thread, you may know black, white, yellow people to be a certain way. But you should never close yourself off to them, as you should judge everyone on their each individual merit. This applies if the reason you don't "give them a chance" is because of some kind of behaviour you have witnessed, experienced.
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  4. #104
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dictionary
    3. feelings or actions of hatred and bigotry toward a person or persons because of their race
    Quote Originally Posted by Swindall
    As it was said earlier in the thread, you may know black, white, yellow people to be a certain way. But you should never close yourself off to them, as you should judge everyone on their each individual merit.
    That definition isn't an entirely accurate representation of what's at issue though. It's not because of their race that Aspo is behaving in such a way. It's because of conditions associated with that group of people that is behaving in such a way.

    This seems to me to be an important distinction. It's this sort of thing that causes people to vote Republican over Democrat (or vice versa), to choose be liberal over conservative, etc. It's a label associated with nebulous "things" common to this group or that.

    I'll add that I'm not saying these generalizations are right or just; only that they ARE and to perhaps say a bit about WHY they are. The definition is too simplistic.

  5. #105
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    That definition isn't an entirely accurate representation of what's at issue though. It's not because of their race that Aspo is behaving in such a way. It's because of conditions associated with that group of people that is behaving in such a way.
    Although it could be argued that it becomes about race when the condition she stated isn't even a majority amongst that race of people in that country.

    I think it was written somewhere in the thread, the percentage of black people with aids is 13%. If the condition isn't even the "Norm" amongst black people, then she's generalizing isn't she, and she's associating a very serious disease with that generalization.

    I'm not saying Aspo's racist.
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  6. #106
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swindall View Post
    Although it could be argued that it becomes about race when the condition she stated isn't even a majority amongst that race of people in that country.
    And I really think that's really the crux of the issue, mate. I mean, when I go vote for example, I might vote strictly Democrat because in my head "Republicans believe in Intelligent Design and I don't want them pushing that agenda in schools" where someone else might vote straight Republican because "Democrats are baby-killers". You see the same thing in the thread CC created about atheophobia; all these clearly unConstitutional laws predicated on the idea that atheists are inherently inferior and so on because of perceived conditions or behaviors associated with them.

    So your point is a very good one, and I don't know where that nebulous event horizon lies where "practical" discrimination transitions to "immoral" discrimination (for lack of better terms). I mean, we ALL do it, but there's a real gap in-between "I don't like black people, period" and "I choose not to sleep with black men where I live because many of them have AIDS where I live".

  7. #107
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Perhaps this has been brought up and if so, I apologise but I didn't see it.

    The issue, to restate, is that the (over)generalization that blacks in SA should be avoided ENTIRELY due to a minority portion of people who look physically similar is unfair/racist/ignorant. The reason being that with only 13% of blacks in SA, the statistics do not match up to the logic. Thus the serious problem with stereotypes, especially based on race.

    Now, on its face we've seen the discussion that played out. "It's racist!" or "It's logical and prudent!" But why I have a hard time accepting that a racial demographic should be avoided is because nobody is considering what situations Aspo, or whoever, leaves themselves in.

    For example, just because some woman would avoid having sex with all blacks in SA doesn't mean their future white SA partner would have avoided blacks. Nor does it mean that they don't have AIDS or another serious disease. Moreover, if 4/5 AIDS cases in Africa are women, this means that a white male who has sex with women is more likely to come in contact with and contract AIDS than a white female.

    So now, we need to find out how many white SA males have sex with black females, right? If it is greater than 13% should person X also avoid white SA males too? Should this be a question that person X asks their potential partner? "Have you ever had sex with a black SA female?" Perhaps we should fine out the racial and social demographic breakdown of all STDs and avoid all those that are greater than 13%, right?

    No! It gets ridiculous when you start to consider it all. The point that the people claiming "racist!" are trying to make is that given that you are only going to be dealing one person, using their skin color to determine if you have sex with them is pretty much useless and pointless. There is no reason to trick yourself into thinking one racial group is "more safe" than another because its not about the group! Nothing makes the white SA man you meet a safe bet just because he's white nor does anything inherently about the black SA make him unsafe just because he's black. You would need to know more about the person, their history, social background, family, values, morals, et cetera to make a good decision.

    Choosing sexual partners (or at a minimum, when not to use a condom) should be an informed decision based on the individual; not the skin color of an individual. And if you really want to be sure, refuse to have sex until you both get tested.

    (To be honest, the older I get and the LESS I know about my future partners, I will likely want to test myself and have them tested for any disease...)

  8. #108
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by PZ
    No, why would you think that Clive? I liked Jamie's idea, which is to be as careful as possible if you live in a nation with a relatively high HIV rate. She specifically suggested asking your partner to get tested, which would in theory put that partner at 0% risk unless this person lied or the test was wrong or something.

    It is rational, logical, and compassionate to give anyone you are sexually attracted to a chance to prove to you they can be trusted. Wouldn't you agree?
    Whether or not it is rational or logical depends on what axioms you're working from. If you judge that the risk of deceit or false negatives is "too high" (based on your own personal risk tolerance), then it might in fact be rational and logical to reject that person as a potential sexual partner without waiting for the results of an HIV test.

    Quote Originally Posted by AuspiciousFist View Post
    Right, which is ridiculous because the area you live in could be populated overwhelmingly with people from Group X who do not have group Y. Just like it is most likely that a black man who Aspo would be interested in would have a much less chance of being HIV positive than the overall statistics suggest, as education and social class are probably things that factor into Aspo's decision of who to date, which all reduce incidence of HIV.
    I don't know what you mean by "much less," so I can't judge whether your claim is true.

    It might be the case that Aspo's area is populated mostly by people from Group X without Characteristic Y. But since this is unknown, we use statistics to analyze the relative likelihood that this is the case. In order to judge the relative likelihood of this event (a majority of samples from X lacking Y) we would need to know more about the covariance of Y within X relative to other factors such as age, race, socioeconomic status, religion, and whatever other characteristics exist with which HIV status correlates.

    Lacking such evidence, or perhaps the training in statistics to analyze such evidence, people are left to their own devices. If I know that 99% of Group X has Characteristic Y, is it racist to assume that a given individual from X has Y? That's the error that's being made in that assumption? Racism?

    It dehumanizes an individual if you use statistics about a population to make judgements about them. They go from being something unique to just a conflageration of probabilities.

    Statistics are fine if addressing a society as a whole, since that is what population statistics are meant to describe. They are not meant to describe individuals.
    A conflagration of probabilities?

    I don't think you understand what statistical inferences actually tell us. It is not a statistically valid inference to say "This person from X has Y." It is a statistically valid inference to say "This person from X has a Z% probability of having Y given assumptions A, B, and C."

    Population statistics are meant to describe the population that was being studied. So when you're talking about a population of individual human beings, then the statistics will describe individual human beings within the sampled population.

    you are ignoring most of the issue, which is that if Aspo got to know a black man over a period of time, she could easily find out his HIV status (she could go as far as to have him get tested in front of her and get the results from a dr.) As I said earlier, if Aspo is mechanically sleeping with people using only statistics as a guide, she has bigger problems than racism.
    Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to be in a relationship where I have to look at test results to judge whether I should begin a sexual relationship with someone. If the risk is high enough to justify mandatory testing, then the risk is too high for me. But that's a judgment call about acceptable levels of risk and acceptable amounts/types of effort to put into beginning a relationship.

    I said they can support a racist argument, not prove one (you also use the word "support" so I'm not sure what the deal is here). Obviously racism cannot be proven since it is a bogus, intellectually bankrupt concept, but people can, and do, cite statistics like the one you mentioned as validation of their beliefs.
    Except that the statistics don't actually validate their beliefs. It's like someone citing Dawkins' book about atheism to justify murdering the Pope.

    ---------- Post added at 02:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    And I really think that's really the crux of the issue, mate. I mean, when I go vote for example, I might vote strictly Democrat because in my head "Republicans believe in Intelligent Design and I don't want them pushing that agenda in schools" where someone else might vote straight Republican because "Democrats are baby-killers". You see the same thing in the thread CC created about atheophobia; all these clearly unConstitutional laws predicated on the idea that atheists are inherently inferior and so on because of perceived conditions or behaviors associated with them.

    So your point is a very good one, and I don't know where that nebulous event horizon lies where "practical" discrimination transitions to "immoral" discrimination (for lack of better terms). I mean, we ALL do it, but there's a real gap in-between "I don't like black people, period" and "I choose not to sleep with black men where I live because many of them have AIDS where I live".
    I don't think it's a good point at all, much less a very good one.

    Suppose that 49% of whites in the US had AIDS. Is it still about race?

    Suppose that the likelihood of a white person having AIDS was 5x greater than the likelihood of a non-white person having AIDS. Suppose I'm equally attracted to all races. Would it be racist of me to prefer non-whites to whites insofar as my decision factors in the risk of contracting HIV?

    I think in order for it to be racist, the decision has to be based on their race or something that you think necessarily follows from their race; for instance, if you believe that a higher risk of HIV follows from being black, then your decision is racist.

    But say you were using statistics; next year, maybe the risk of having HIV for blacks goes down, below your risk tolerance threshold. The person using statistics would change their position; the person using racism would not.
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  9. #109
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreenape View Post
    For example, just because some woman would avoid having sex with all blacks in SA doesn't mean their future white SA partner would have avoided blacks. Nor does it mean that they don't have AIDS or another serious disease. Moreover, if 4/5 AIDS cases in Africa are women, this means that a white male who has sex with women is more likely to come in contact with and contract AIDS than a white female.

    So now, we need to find out how many white SA males have sex with black females, right? If it is greater than 13% should person X also avoid white SA males too? Should this be a question that person X asks their potential partner? "Have you ever had sex with a black SA female?" Perhaps we should fine out the racial and social demographic breakdown of all STDs and avoid all those that are greater than 13%, right?

    No! It gets ridiculous when you start to consider it all. The point that the people claiming "racist!" are trying to make is that given that you are only going to be dealing one person, using their skin color to determine if you have sex with them is pretty much useless and pointless. There is no reason to trick yourself into thinking one racial group is "more safe" than another because its not about the group! Nothing makes the white SA man you meet a safe bet just because he's white nor does anything inherently about the black SA make him unsafe just because he's black. You would need to know more about the person, their history, social background, family, values, morals, et cetera to make a good decision.
    Out of African, White, Colored, and Indian groups here's what the stats look like..
    African - 13.6%
    White - 0.3%
    Colored - 1.7%
    Indian - 0.3%
    http://www.avert.org/safricastats.htm
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreenape
    No! It gets ridiculous when you start to consider it all. The point that the people claiming "racist!" are trying to make is that given that you are only going to be dealing one person, using their skin color to determine if you have sex with them is pretty much useless and pointless. There is no reason to trick yourself into thinking one racial group is "more safe" than another because its not about the group! Nothing makes the white SA man you meet a safe bet just because he's white nor does anything inherently about the black SA make him unsafe just because he's black. You would need to know more about the person, their history, social background, family, values, morals, et cetera to make a good decision.
    ...or, say, the relative frequency of HIV infection among blacks...

    Let's say there are 100 socks in a drawer. 7 of them are black, the rest are white. Say one is selected; the odds that it is black is 7%, even though "[x] is black" has nothing to do with "[x] is a sock."
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    ...or, say, the relative frequency of HIV infection among blacks...

    Let's say there are 100 socks in a drawer. 7 of them are black, the rest are white. Say one is selected; the odds that it is black is 7%, even though "[x] is black" has nothing to do with "[x] is a sock."
    We are not talking about placing bets here, we are talking about who is an acceptable sexual partner. There are better ways to narrow down your choice than to exclude an entire race of people because of a disease only a minority has. That's the issue.

    My point is that if you took a white SA man and a black SA man and you HAD to make a bet on which one has AIDS then you would pick the black SA man. However, you cannot be positive of that. The black guy could be virgin for all you know. The white guy could be a sex addict who sleeps with prostitutes. Who is more likely to have AIDS in that situation?

    So, when it comes to narrowing down sexual partners, using race is pointless because the white SA may have been the guy with AIDS. Anyone could for that matter...it is better to look at the plethora of OTHER indicators which have nothing to do with skin color to determine if the person is a risk factor for AIDS.

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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreenape View Post
    We are not talking about placing bets here, we are talking about who is an acceptable sexual partner. There are better ways to narrow down your choice than to exclude an entire race of people because of a disease only a minority has. That's the issue.

    My point is that if you took a white SA man and a black SA man and you HAD to make a bet on which one has AIDS then you would pick the black SA man. However, you cannot be positive of that. The black guy could be virgin for all you know. The white guy could be a sex addict who sleeps with prostitutes. Who is more likely to have AIDS in that situation?
    Clearly, the white guy. Obviously we should use as much evidence as possible to refine our statistical model. I don't think Aspo ever argued against that.

    So, when it comes to narrowing down sexual partners, using race is pointless because the white SA may have been the guy with AIDS. Anyone could for that matter...it is better to look at the plethora of OTHER indicators which have nothing to do with skin color to determine if the person is a risk factor for AIDS.
    Wait, so now we should ignore the correlation between race and HIV infection? Huh?



    Look, I agree that there's more to figuring out whether a person is an acceptable sex partner than checking the stats on HIV among that partner's race. I'm a Christian, and I have the typically mushy/sentimental view of what a sexual relationship is supposed to be like. It should be based on who the person is; there are avenues for minimizing health risks.

    So I haven't really addressed that part of Aspo's argument. I have focused on what valid statistical reasons a person could have to disqualify some group of people from their pool of potential sex partners. I think that a non-racist person with a sufficiently small risk tolerance could come to a conclusion that is similar to Aspo's; whether or not that risk tolerance is "reasonable" is outside the scope of my argument.
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Clearly, the white guy. Obviously we should use as much evidence as possible to refine our statistical model. I don't think Aspo ever argued against that.
    She is arguing that she wouldn't even consider any evidence other than that they are black and blacks are more likely (as compared to other races) to have HIV.

    Wait, so now we should ignore the correlation between race and HIV infection? Huh?
    You are the math guy. What are the chances that Person X would meet someone with HIV assuming there are ~40 million black people and 13% has AIDS?

    I dont know the exact numbers but I would say it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that Person X would meet a black guy with AIDS in South Africa. Is it more likely to meet a black south african? YES! Is it likely to begin with!? NO!

    So if it is unlikely that Person X meets a black man with AIDS in South Africa, then why not use the OTHER factors to determine if he is a potential sexual partner instead of a flawed method of skin color?

    Let's switch this up a bit: 18% of South Africans have AIDS, would you have sex with anyone from South Africa? Why or why not?

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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreenape View Post
    She is arguing that she wouldn't even consider any evidence other than that they are black and blacks are more likely (as compared to other races) to have HIV.
    She didn't say that she wouldn't consider it; she said that she doesn't think she'd need to consider it.

    You are the math guy. What are the chances that Person X would meet someone with HIV assuming there are ~40 million black people and 13% has AIDS?
    13% of the black people have AIDS, or 13% of Africans?

    I dont know the exact numbers but I would say it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that Person X would meet a black guy with AIDS in South Africa.
    That sort of depends on how many people in SA are black, but it is very unlikely that a random black person will have HIV.

    Is it more likely to meet a black south african? YES! Is it likely to begin with!? NO!
    Wait, I'm a bit confused:

    Are you more likely to meet a black South African than you are to meet a black South African with HIV? Yes.

    Is what likely to begin with?

    So if it is unlikely that Person X meets a black man with AIDS in South Africa, then why not use the OTHER factors to determine if he is a potential sexual partner instead of a flawed method of skin color?

    Let's switch this up a bit: 18% of South Africans have AIDS, would you have sex with anyone from South Africa? Why or why not?
    It depends on how much information I have. If I know nothing else about the person except that they are from SA, where 18% of the population has HIV, then if my risk tolerance for HIV was <18% I would reject that person.

    But if I knew more about the person--age, gender, race, socioeconomic status, religion, behavior, etc.--I could make a more accurate determination about that specific person's likelihood of having HIV.

    Let's say the person was a virgin. Then the likelihood of that person having HIV is much lower, since relatively fewer virgins have HIV in South Africa (presumably). So we would revise down the initial 18% estimate.

    With more information, we could keep getting a better and better estimate for the likelihood that the person has HIV.
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    It depends on how much information I have. If I know nothing else about the person except that they are from SA, where 18% of the population has HIV, then if my risk tolerance for HIV was <18% I would reject that person.

    But if I knew more about the person--age, gender, race, socioeconomic status, religion, behavior, etc.--I could make a more accurate determination about that specific person's likelihood of having HIV.
    And all that is very reasonable thinking and behavior.

    If Aspo's post had been. Would you be concerned about having sex with a black south African... I'd say yes. There is good reason to be concerned. 13% is a lot when you are talking about a lifelong and potentially deadly disease.

    What is less reasonable is saying that you would never stop to consider any other factors and the moment you saw their skin, the decision was complete which is what Aspo said on more than one occasion. Its summary judgement based on race. Its discrimination based on skin color rather than causal factors. Its treating all people as if they were dangerous because some minority potion of them are and that isn't very fair to a given individual who may have pristine sexual practices.

    While less reasonable its only a personal decision and folks get to make those without judgement. And normally I don't judge but when folks come out and ask if others think its racist. Well I have an opinion about it. And when I see along side this preference, posts about how blacks are murderers, mutilators, rapists and ignorant savages... I start to get the idea that someone really doesn't care for folks of a given skin color and heritage. It's anyones right to feel that way, but I call em like I see em.

    When someones defense is "oh but they really are like that"... I've heard that one before and in my experience it means I'm correct in my assertion.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    She didn't say that she wouldn't consider it; she said that she doesn't think she'd need to consider it.
    I fail to see that as very different.

    It depends on how much information I have. If I know nothing else about the person except that they are from SA, where 18% of the population has HIV, then if my risk tolerance for HIV was <18% I would reject that person.

    But if I knew more about the person--age, gender, race, socioeconomic status, religion, behavior, etc.--I could make a more accurate determination about that specific person's likelihood of having HIV.

    Let's say the person was a virgin. Then the likelihood of that person having HIV is much lower, since relatively fewer virgins have HIV in South Africa (presumably). So we would revise down the initial 18% estimate.

    With more information, we could keep getting a better and better estimate for the likelihood that the person has HIV.
    Clive, you obviously have the same mentality as me considering you are saying if we know more and more about the person the more accurate determination we can make about their HIV status.

    Basically, anyone using just one factor, especially when it is only 13% accurate, isn't a reasonable judgement of anything...and even more so when it comes to a person.

    That's the real issue.

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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    It was an example of how behavior is affected by experience.
    You're evading. I have clearly established that you were alluding to Sly having a phobia or phobia-like fear of black men by using your phobia of spiders as an example to compare and contrast it to.

    At best it was a poor choice of an example to compare and contrast with.

    Here again, I mentioned my fear of spiders in relation to her distaste for black guys as an example of how behavior (and perception) are affected by experience.
    You're reaching, and insulting my intelligence at the same time. Why would I need you to illuminate me on the stunning observation that behavior/perception are affected by experience? Who disputes this? But just because a person's behavior/perception is affected by experience does not mean that their behavior/perception is accurate. Or logical. Or moral.

    Because I NEVER miss a chance to remind people that I fear spiders almost as much as I hate them (which is just a little less than how much their anatomy fascinates me).
    Dodging with with attempts at humor is still dodging.

    Albert's fear wasn't at all irrational. You're applying the rationality of an adult mind to a toddler. In Albert's mind, it was entirely rational. He didn't know the noise was being made by scientists. All he knew was that the mouse and the noise were related.
    Negative. Using this logic, I guess that all things that people are mistaken about are rational. That when say, someone takes LSD and thinks that the walls are melting, it's rational in the mind of the LSD user. They didn't know at the time that the walls were not actually melting. Or when say a stalker breaks into the house of the person they are obsessed with, and the person calls the cops rather than fall madly in love with the stalker, I guess it's not the stalker's fault. The stalker really believed that their victim would fall madly in love with them, and could even continue to believe this after being arrested by the cops, telling themselves that the victim is just playing "hard to get" with the whole calling the cops thing.

    It's simple. The rat did not cause fear in the child, the loud sound did. The child got tricked into believing that the rat caused fear. The child was mistaken, and thus, irrational. Believing in an illusion/lie/mistake is not rational. I am disappointed that I am forced to quote definitions once again, but it is needed:

    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    rational (comparative more rational, superlative most rational)

    1. Reasonable; not absurd, foolish, emotional, or fanciful.

    rational conduct

    2. Capable of reasoning.

    Man is a rational creature.

    All you are doing is appealing to a solipstic cop-out, i.e. "in the mind of the child" nonsense. We live and opperate in reality, Hyde, not the child's (or any one else's) mind. The LSD user's walls didn't melt, the stalker's victim does not love the stalker, and the loud sound caused the child fear.

    I could certainly invest time and energy in overcoming my admitted arachnaphobia, but to be blunt: I don't want to.
    Oh, so now you admit that you have arachnaphobia. I am guessing that Sly doesn't want to get over her racism either. I encourage you to try and get over your phobia and for Sly to get over her racism.

    Reasonably more justified in their preference than someone with no experience.
    Negative. It is plausable, and perhaps very probable, that Sly only had experience with the minority of "bad" black men. Of course we still have to guess at what qualities Sly attributes to "bad" men. Regardless of what she calls a "bad" black guy, there are white men out there with the same and even worse attributes. But rather than give all men the benifit of the doubt, Sly writes off all black men.

    It would be different if she were simply not attracted to black men, but I am not convinced that this is the case. More on that later.

    No. I can't agree to that because I genuinely do not believe it to be irrational.
    Just because Hyde genuinely does not believe something to be irrational, does not make it rational.

    I've leveled the argument for WHY I don't believe it to be irrational. She's had a bad experience, and like anyone anywhere, she defaults to that experience in examining the subjects relating to it. In this instance, she's had ZERO positive experience with black people, isn't personally familiar with anyone who (to my knowledge at least) HAS had a positive experience with one, and so defaults to that experience when the question arises. What, exactly, is so irrational or illogical about that?
    Not all black men are "bad" people. Just as not all white men are "bad" people. To believe that all black or all white or all of any race of men are not good enough for you is irrational. There are men of all races that are "good" people.

    Further more, and I have already requested on several occasions that either you or Sly elaborate on what constitutes a "bad experience" and what constitutes a "good experience". And as I have also repeatedly pointed out, we are going on anecdotal evidence here and Sly and Hyde's word. Now you claim that no one that Sly is personally familiar with has had ANY positive experiences with a black man? In addition to finding that very hard to believe, even if it were true, it's also nothing more than an Ad Pop fallacy.

    Oh, well, if you know lots of people that have not had any positive experiences with black men, then I guess it must be true that enough of them are bad enough to avoid them all.

    Absurd.

    Why does it matter how many of them are bad?
    Because it is relevant how much of a percentage of black men Sly deems is "bad" in order for us to have a better understanding of her process, if any, of coming to the conclusion that she did. Of course it matters. It's not useful, nor does it give us a chance to make it relative, if she is vauge and just leaves it at "enough black men are bad to give them all up".

    Or to ask it another way, since you're arguing that, as you put it, "She hasn't been with every single one", then why SHOULD someone have to indulge each and every one of a set to make a judgement? Because of exceptions? Should we also strike down Megan's Law because hey, even though sex offenders have a recidivism rate of roughly 70%, it's still not 100%? By that same logic, should also strike down banning guns in schools because not EVERYONE who owns a gun goes to school and kills people? In fact, I would go so far as to argue that according to your logic, the number of people who HAVE committed felonies with firearms in schools is so staggeringly small that we SHOULD have no restrictions there.
    What a tangled mess of a great big strawman and red herrings.

    First, I would point out that now in addition to comparing black men with spiders... you compare them with sex offenders. Sex offenders, Hyde? Really? Of all the things...

    Next, while I of course understand that it is not pracitcal or a very good idea in general to give all people and things several fair tries (or even one try), the burden is now on you to demonstrate how black men fit into this catagory of high risk. Because when I think of things that are high risk, or things that I should not try once or at all to know they are bad for me, I think of things like crack cocaine. Or jumping off of the 20th story of a building. Sure, people can survive both smoking crack and jumping off tall buildings, but it's just not a very good idea to do either. We know this through SCIENTIFIC observation, not the anecdotes of one woman.

    I wasn't saying that solely because I gots da blood wid mutha natu'a's nat'ral night camo, that I'm not racist. Far from it. I've admitted in the past on ODN that I'm not particularly fond of black people, asians, liberals, the far right, or people with names I can't take seriously. What I was issuing with that, was that Syl, who isn't related, took no issue with being around those people socially (talking to them and hanging out), which wouldn't exactly be consistent with a racist person (who, if they hated black people, probably wouldn't want to hang out with them).
    Okay, so you admit to being a racist. Not sure how to respond to that without getting an infraction, so let's move on.

    You obviously were not paying attention to what I wrote and gave an example of, as far as the rest of the above goes. You can be an inconsistent racist, much like that Neo Nazi Skinhead fellow that I linked a video clip of, who has a Latino friend, yet is of course an extreme racist.

    Not that it's relevant, but why is being rational a "good" thing? And why is irrationality a "bad" thing?
    Not, it's not. But you know what is? The fact that you ignored a big chunk of my rebuttal. Please address this portion of post #99 which was omitted:

    Quote Originally Posted by PZ
    Already addressed the phobia issue. As far as not being racist, I hardly think that's up for debate anymore. Sly has already admitted that no black men are able to meet her expectations, but of course has convieniently left what exactly her expectations are and what constitutes a "bad experience".

    It's pretty transparent that this is because as soon as she gives specifics, they will be pounced on and her ignorant and irrational beliefs taken apart. For example, she will give us her anecdotes of things she deemed "bad", and of course what will be then brought up is how white people also do these "bad" things. And then she would look pretty silly, having to face up to the fact that it's ignorant and irrational to write off an entire group of people because of isolated subjective examples that we of course have to take her word for that of course could never be an accurate representation of all or even most black men. And I have already established that Sly is attracted to black men. When you consent to have sex with someone, this assumes that you are sexually attracted to this person, even if it is in the slightest. Keep in mind too that Sly even had relationships with black men, this of course implies that she had sex repeatedly with the same black man. Why would she have sex repeatedly with black men if she was not in any way attracted to them?
    This was obviously way too big for you to have just missed it.


    Let me rewrite that paragraph to concretely illustrate my point:

    I am not attracted to black women because I am not capable of being attracted to them. They disgust me as far as sex goes. I have no control over that. I could have had sex with 100 different black women when I was single. But I didn't. I even had oppertunities to have sex with black women, but I said no thanks. It is an intuitive preferance. I have nothing against black women at all. I make NO judgements on their character. I simply would not--and it is very possible that I could not--have sex with them.

    Sounds a little racists doesn't it?
    No. Sounds like a person that is not attracted to black people.

    If I changed it to "jewish" it would sound antisemitic.
    Yes of course, but you fail to note that anyone of any race could be jewish. There are black jews, white jews, Latino jews, etc.

    There's a problem. You have nothing against them...they just disgust you. But that's okay. But when Syl says that the prospect of a black guy disgusts her, you take issue with it. This is what I was referring to when I said you were creating a case of special pleading. It's okay for thee, but not for me (or in this case, her-ee).
    Thanks for bringing this up, I had planned on exploring the idea of Sly not being attracted to black men.

    It's simple, really: I don't believe that Sly has an intuitive preferance against black men. I already linked to that so-called straight man that "used" to be gay, and for good reason. I think that both Sly and those "cured" gay men are full crap. I don't buy their story, and will explain why.

    So let me get this straight. There was a guy who used to be gay. This means that he had sex with several different men and repeatedly. This in turn means that this man must have enjoyed his actions at least to a certain extent. After all, why go through the trouble of having sex with men when you could have sex with women? And it is very safe to assume that sometime over the course of this gay man's sex life with other men, that he was able to have an orgasm. Probably many. BUT! All of a sudden through some unlicensed therapist and the power of Jesus, presto-chango, this man is now straight...? That this "ex-gay" man is no longer attracted to men... at all?

    Okay. It's plausable. Plausable. Not at all probable, and in fact, I don't buy such a story.

    Then we have Sly. The little that we do know about her relations with black men is this:

    She's had sex with more than one
    She's been in a relationship with more than one

    And from here, as in the above case of the gay man, it is very safe to assume the very same details. That Sly could have opted to only have sex with white men, but didn't. That Sly must have enjoyed the sex to one degree or another. Assuming that Sly has a normal sex drive and is capable of having orgasms, then it follows that there is a pretty good chance that she had at least one (probably more) orgasms while having sex with black men. And when she says that she was in a relationship, it is also safe to assume that she had sex repeatedly with more than one black man.

    Sly of course can correct me in any of the above by being more specific, but of course we would once again have to take her word for it. At this point, would it really be unreasonable to suspect that she might lie in order to give more weight to her argument? It would be all too easy to just claim that all black men she had sex with disgusted her and she never was satisfied and was never truely attracted to them. Why go through with all the trouble of having sex with multiple black men and repeatedly is absurd to put it lightly, but hey, I guess it is plausable. It's also plausable that after I am done writing this post, that I am going to jump onto my rocket ship and blast off to the moon, just me and my cat.

    But why then, if we can at least establish that at somepoint in Sly's life she was attracted to black men, we need to then establish what caused her to no longer be attracted to black men, and if this is even possible.

    Me on the other hand, I have still never had sex with any morbidly obese women or any men, nor have I ever had the urge to, not even when it the opportunities presented themselves in the past. I don't see how any of that is so hard to believe. Sly on the other hand, the most reasonable explaination I can come up with is that Sly represses her attraction for black men due to bad experiences, which have also unfortunately influenced her to make large and false sweeping generalizations about black men, which in turn make her a racist.

    Right. You actively avoided the prospect of "slappin the fat and ridin the wave". Not because you're prejudiced. But because the idea is disgusting to you. So disgusting that you admit that it's entirely possible you COULD NOT bring yourself to do such a thing.
    That's accurate, yes, aside from the crass way you put having sex with a morbidly obese woman. Much like having sex with a man also disgusts me, and that it's possible I could not bring myself to do such a thing.

    Would you say that preference is rational or irrational? Why or why not?
    This is a catagorical error. Being straight or gay or what turns you on deep down inside are not rational or irrational, they simply are. You are gay, you are straight, you are bi. Being gay is no more rational than being straight or bi. Just as being attracted to red heads is no more rational than say being attracted to people with athletic builds. And of course all of us have many things we are and are not attracted to.

    I will again remind you that I am not convinced that Sly simply does not prefer black men.

    There's no mystery there. Why bother with an additional example when there's a perfectly acceptable one for the taking already under fire? But I'll go ahead and sally forth anyways. You're not attracted to men. Why? Do you have control over that? If you do, then what reasonable answer do you have for why you're not prejudiced for trying to youtube another guy's myspace? If you don't, then why is your inability to control your physiological impulses (or inhibitions) any better, more rational, or more appropriate than someone who HAS experienced it and levels the same degree of judgement, but does so based on experience rather than an issue that is, admittedly, beyond their control? In other words, what makes it better to say, "I'm not attracted to black men because, for whatever reason, I never have been" than to say, "I'm not attracted to black men because past experience has been, to put it politely, lackluster"?
    Because Sly had to make judgements of character and commit huge sweeping generalizations for her to "not be attracted" to black men, for one. And we have yet to know exactly why these past experiences were so "lackluster". We already know everything we need to know about a person with an intuitive preferance like a gay person or a person that is not aroused by black people. They are just not sexually into certain people, and thus, because relationships are built upon sexual attraction, they never have relationships with certain people.

    Sly on the other hand, well, I have already covered that haven't I?

    Not to nitpick, but it could argued that yes, you are making judgements by nature of your activities. Much the same as a Christian, by virtue of being a Christian, is making a judgement about Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. It's not a position I would often argue, but it's there nonetheless if you care to think about it.
    False. My lack of sexual attraction has no other red strings or claims or judgements. Period. I am not turned on by men. The end. I am not turned on by morbidly obese women. The end. I am not attracted to LOTS of people and things. Because remember, there are people out there that get sexually aroused by animals, and I am sure there is some odd ball out there that gets turned on by trees or cars or whatever.

    Is that a joke? You come on all high and mighty, throwing around how we're racist and then say I'M not being nice? Morbidly obese women ARE FAT. They're fat. I'm not gonna sanitise the issue for the sake of sparing feelings. How you can be disgusted by them sexually, but still manage to get offended over me saying what they are monosyllabically is beyond me. It's not like I'm making any judgements about their character. I'm describing their physique.
    Hyde, you just admitted to being a racist, and I have just pointed out (Sly's post does this on its own as well) that Sly is a racist.

    And obese people are people too. I will admit, however, that I too use less than flattering words for obese people. Much like I use racial slurs and all sorts of words deemed "taboo" or "offensive" to many people. But that's neither here nor there. I was just pointing out for the sake of clarity that I never said "fat chicks", you did. You can take it however you want.

    While I do pride myself on both my wit and memory, I must've really said something impressive for you to remember it when I have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you should laugh more at the attempts to inject humor in an otherwise serious discussion.
    It was in the Survivalism thread, since you claim not to recall. You know, the one you made a real fool of yourself in?

    And I will laugh when I see humor, never you worry.

    Emphasis mine. Yes we ARE talking about that. The difference is that you deem it perfectly acceptable to write off an entire group with ZERO justification while taking issue with a change of heart based on experience. And so far, you've yet to provide any actual reason as to why that's an acceptable stance to take.
    No, we really are not talking about that, see above. And I don't have to provide any reasons as to why I am heterosexual or why I am not attracted to morbidly obese women. That's just the way it is.

    Being a believer that hetero/homo is a biological, rather than an environmental issue, I'd call that problematic in that it obfuscates the issue with an clear logical gap. We're not talking about whether someone is, from what I assume we can both agree on, is an issue beyond their control. We're talking about going from "Not having a problem with that feature" to "Having a problem with that feature" which is a strictly environmental issue (as the Albert experiment demonstrates).
    Still not convinced that Sly is not attracted in any way to black men, and still convinced that all the Albert experiment demonstrates is that you can trick a child into believing all sorts of things, even irrational ones.

    Ad hominem notwithstanding, Dio (if not me personally) would be the first to tell you that I DO often leap into a thread to defend her a number of reasons, the fact that we're involved being only one. Would you react any differently? I may not be the brightest guy in the room, or the most moral man on the planet, or the wisest or most travelled, but loyalty is important to me. I stand by the people I care about, regardless of whether they're right or wrong on an issue and regardless of the outcome.
    I don't see how stating the obvious is an Ad hom. You just admitted that you are indeed biased because of your loyalty, to the point of defending Sly even if she were wrong.

    Loyalty is also very important to me, Hyde. We just have different interpretations of it. Very different, perhaps. If my wife posted the nonsense that Sly posted, I would be the first one to set her straight. Then again, I doubt I would have married my wife if she were a racist.

  18. #118
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Would you have sex with someone of the same sex?? If not, why not?
    NO, because im not homosexual. Im heterosexual. I like girls. How is this relevent to the topic?



    ---------- Post added at 08:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 AM ----------


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Are you not doing the exact same thing you are accusing Aspo of? You are basing your reasons for not having sex with a particular race on the color of their skin.. How is this different then Aspo's reasons?
    Thats exactly what im doing. I never claimed that i was or was not racist. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to have sex with white people. I was asking how that was different from the question she asked.

    BTW, im a white-skinned hispanic that likes white girls. I personally have no objection to having sex with any race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Then you should consider yourself color blind as well if you were a SA black man who would not sleep with white women. You mentioned in another post that your reason was because of racism that there's a lot of racist in SA.
    Again, i was making a point. I wont want to even go to South Africa, let alone have sex with anyone there. The white people are racist, the black people are racist, everyone has AIDS. Its just not for me. I would rather live in Arizona.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    So in order to be civil you must be willing to have sex with someone?
    Being civil would be saying that its ok to have sex with black people in South Africa, but you should just be safe and get you and your partner tested. No jumping to conclusions and saying that no one should have sex with any black people in South Africa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Uhhhh could it be that people are calling her racist? I do not sleep with men so does that make me heterophobic?
    Do you avoid straight people? If you do then Yes, you are heterophobic. If you dont avoid them then NO, you arent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    So you would sleep with women in SA even tho the majority of people with HIV (if that's even correct) are women? Would you not be cautious and not avoid sleeping with the group that covers the majority of people with HIV?
    Im cautious no matter who I have sex with, no matter what color they are or what disease they may or may not have. It always pays to be safe.

  19. #119
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    You're evading. I have clearly established that you were alluding to Sly having a phobia or phobia-like fear of black men by using your phobia of spiders as an example to compare and contrast it to.

    At best it was a poor choice of an example to compare and contrast with.
    Uh...no. You didn't "clearly establish" anything. You took what I said and, not fit to argue against it, interpreted it into something you COULD argue against. I used it as an example, for the third time now, of how behavior/perception is affected by experience. If you're too thick to grasp what an example is without someone going, "Example:" then you need to stop posting and go back to grammar school.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Why would I need you to illuminate me on the stunning observation that behavior/perception are affected by experience? Who disputes this? But just because a person's behavior/perception is affected by experience does not mean that their behavior/perception is accurate. Or logical. Or moral.
    I illuminate you because you because your remarks lead me to believe that you've never given any study to behavioral sciences or anything similar.

    As far as whether or not those perceptions are logical, logic doesn't accurately reflect truth or reality. Several hundred years ago, the earth being the center of the universe was COMPLETELY logical. But it wasn't true or accurate. Similarly, in order for a perception to be im/moral, then you have prescribe a value to it. So, to relate this to the discussion, unless you (or anyone here) is prescribing a moral value to the subject of being attracted/willing to sleep with black men in south africa (or anywhere), then the morality aspect is nul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Dodging with with attempts at humor is still dodging.
    Claiming I'm dodging isn't demonstrating me dodging. If I have, you can prove it. If not, you can keep doing what you're doing, IE, using logical fallacies and misreading arguments. I'd recommend the latter since you're better at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Negative. Using this logic, I guess that all things that people are mistaken about are rational.
    Now you're getting it. Rationality, like logic, doesn't reflect truth or reality. What was once rational can be overturned with a new discovery (like telling the child it was two men making loud noises instead of the mouse).
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    It's simple. The rat did not cause fear in the child, the loud sound did. The child got tricked into believing that the rat caused fear. The child was mistaken, and thus, irrational. Believing in an illusion/lie/mistake is not rational. I am disappointed that I am forced to quote definitions once again, but it is needed:
    I love it when you post definitions. I then get to do this:

    1. Reasonable; not absurd, foolish, emotional, or fanciful.

    Now then, are we going to argue that, to you or the child, the reasoning was absurd, foolish, emotional, or fanciful? After all, the child knew NOTHING that would construe his association as absurd. It was in line with what the child DID know, so it's not foolish (which seems a redundant addition to the definition anyways). It happened more than once, so I think we can safely assume the child wasn't making the decision from pure emotion. And again, since there was nothing counter to what he knew about the world going on, it certainly wasn't fanciful. So clearly, according to the definition 1, if we go with the child's mind, then the child was being ENTIRELY rational. If we go with your mind, as an individual who knows the full scope of the issue, then we can see how a rational thought was wrong (like many scientific minds in the past).

    2. Capable of reasoning.

    Honestly? This is a useless definition. Even ants are capable of some level of reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    All you are doing is appealing to a solipstic cop-out, i.e. "in the mind of the child" nonsense. We live and opperate in reality, Hyde, not the child's (or any one else's) mind. The LSD user's walls didn't melt, the stalker's victim does not love the stalker, and the loud sound caused the child fear.
    Ah, so you'd say that EVERYONE who thought the universe was eternal before the big bang was discovered (never had a beginning) was irrational? EVERYONE who ever thought that the world was flat before Copernicus or Galileo was irrational? EVERYONE who thought diseases were demonic possessions until medical discoveries showed otherwise was irrational? Because if you wouldn't (on the grounds that they didn't know any different) then you're creating a case of special pleading (yet again). If you would argue that they are, then I'd wager you're either A: COMPLETELY full of ****, or B: COMPLETELY irrational (because I'm sure I know stuff that you don't).
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Oh, so now you admit that you have arachnaphobia.
    ......now I admit it? I admitted it the first time I posted in this thread. Are you doing this drunk or stoned?
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    I encourage you to try and get over your phobia and for Sly to get over her racism.
    And I'd encourage you to avoid the unbelievably grating tone typical of your posts (go back to your response to my first post, and note that others saw how big of a dick you were being too). But since I'm unwilling to change, I don't expect you to change either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Not all black men are "bad" people.
    No ****? And here I thought MLK and Mandela were genocidal monsters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Just as not all white men are "bad" people. To believe that all black or all white or all of any race of men are not good enough for you is irrational. There are men of all races that are "good" people.
    I'm pretty confident that if you went back and read both hers and my posts in this thread, you'd see that neither of us EVER said "all of them" are bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Further more, and I have already requested on several occasions that either you or Sly elaborate on what constitutes a "bad experience" and what constitutes a "good experience".
    I can tell you right now you're request isn't going to be granted. Her exact words were: "None of his ****ing business." But, being privvy to the information myself, not that you'll believe it, I assure you it's not pretty or pleasant. Similarly, I'll relate two instances involving guys I worked with (for close to a year)

    Guy one. Black guy. Married. Has three kids. I trained him personally on everything we had to do at work. For all intents and purposes he was a hard worker (which I like) and was always looking for more work (another trait I value). However, he was vulgar to female employees, and whenever we were on break he'd brag about trying to get into some chick's pants (while being married mind you). THAT, for me, made him worth less than the dirt **** sits on.

    Guy 2? Also married. No kids. Also a hard worker. Also just as vulgar, just as boastish about trying to cheat. Same result. Both fired. Both worth less than ****-covered dirt in my eyes.

    My uncle Johnny (black guy)? Completely different. He doesn't work too hard. He's married and has a kid. He doesn't really try anything too hard. But he's completely devoted. Paints an entirely different image when constrasted to those two. Both syl and myself admit that (and we've never said otherwise).
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    And as I have also repeatedly pointed out, we are going on anecdotal evidence here and Sly and Hyde's word.
    Which we can all agree that you don't believe because in all your wordly travels you've NEVER come across a single bad person with skin darker than an egg.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    In addition to finding that very hard to believe, even if it were true, it's also nothing more than an Ad Pop fallacy.
    It's only an ad populum fallacy if she or I applies that to the entirety of the group. I don't believe either of us have done that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Oh, well, if you know lots of people that have not had any positive experiences with black men, then I guess it must be true that enough of them are bad enough to avoid them all.
    Your words. Not mine or hers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Because it is relevant how much of a percentage of black men Sly deems is "bad" in order for us to have a better understanding of her process, if any, of coming to the conclusion that she did.
    Let me restate the question in a more clear manner then. What percentage is acceptable to you for her reaction/belief?
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    What a tangled mess of a great big strawman and red herrings.
    False charge of fallacy. Your own words:



    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    First, I would point out that now in addition to comparing black men with spiders... you compare them with sex offenders. Sex offenders, Hyde? Really? Of all the things...
    There's only two possible reasons for such a horrendous chunk of sophistry as this. Either you're absolutely retarded, or you're deliberately creating strawmen because you have absolutely NOTHING of substance to say. I never compared black guys to spiders (go back and reread it, it's all there in plain english) and I didn't then compare then to sex offenders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Next, while I of course understand that it is not pracitcal or a very good idea in general to give all people and things several fair tries (or even one try), the burden is now on you to demonstrate how black men fit into this catagory of high risk.
    So it's not practical or a good idea (your words), but it's not rational? So in this instance, what's rational would be both impractical and bad? Those are, after all, your exact words.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    We know this through SCIENTIFIC observation, not the anecdotes of one woman.
    Wow....I don't wanna be judgemental here but....seeexxxiiiissssttt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Okay, so you admit to being a racist. Not sure how to respond to that without getting an infraction, so let's move on.
    Go for it. Flame me. Privately or publicly. Doesn't matter to me. We both know I'm not above accepting an infraction if I feel someone warrants the flame.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    You obviously were not paying attention to what I wrote and gave an example of, as far as the rest of the above goes. You can be an inconsistent racist, much like that Neo Nazi Skinhead fellow that I linked a video clip of, who has a Latino friend, yet is of course an extreme racist.
    You've so far said:

    • An "intuitive" (unreasoned or unexplained) bias against is more rational/acceptable than a bias against from experience.
    • What's practical and good is not rational.
    • That we're talking about all of a race when just posts before stating you were well aware we weren't.


    But I'm being inconsistent....

    Right. Pull my left leg. It plays jinglebells. Seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Not, it's not. But you know what is? The fact that you ignored a big chunk of my rebuttal. Please address this portion of post #99 which was omitted:
    Fine, I'll address it for princess Prime.
    Already addressed the phobia issue. As far as not being racist, I hardly think that's up for debate anymore. Sly has already admitted that no black men are able to meet her expectations, but of course has convieniently left what exactly her expectations are and what constitutes a "bad experience".
    Since you insist on using quotation marks around it, I'll go ahead and ask what you would define as a bad experience? It's quite possible that we have differing views of what a bad experience is. So why don't you tell me what you think a bad experience would be? Or are you going to accuse me of dodging because I dared to ask for clarity?
    It's pretty transparent that this is because as soon as she gives specifics, they will be pounced on and her ignorant and irrational beliefs taken apart.
    Not at all. Someone will pour out sympathy and, quite probably, actually praise the fact that she opened herself up to others AFTER some of those experiences. Some, like yourself, will do the typical ******* thing and say she's lying or being irrational (as you've all but said so far).
    For example, she will give us her anecdotes of things she deemed "bad", and of course what will be then brought up is how white people also do these "bad" things.
    Right, again with the "bad" thing in quotes. Yeah, white people also do those things (notice how NO ONE said different?) but when you go from experience black people doing it (and the only apparant link being skin color) to several relationships with white people (again, the only apparent link being skin color) and the relationships are vastly improved? Well, it can make a mind wonder.
    And then she would look pretty silly, having to face up to the fact that it's ignorant and irrational to write off an entire group of people because of isolated subjective examples that we of course have to take her word for that of course could never be an accurate representation of all or even most black men.
    Right, because she's an irrational liar, right? Because all she's done is "vaguely" reference *"Bad experience"* and she's "just one woman" right?
    And I have already established that Sly is attracted to black men.
    Was. Past tense. I used to LOVE certain country songs. Now I don't. I'm not STILL drawn to that brand of country. Now, since you have trouble grasping correllaries and comparative examples (big words, I know, try to bear with me here), she went from being attracted, to no longer being attracted. Now, let me go ahead and explain the country music reference. I say that to demonstrate that A: It's possible to go from liking something to NOT liking something and B: to show that you can go from liking something to not liking something.
    When you consent to have sex with someone, this assumes that you are sexually attracted to this person, even if it is in the slightest. Keep in mind too that Sly even had relationships with black men, this of course implies that she had sex repeatedly with the same black man. Why would she have sex repeatedly with black men if she was not in any way attracted to them?
    No one disputes that she was. And to be consistent with my bluntness, you don't know her well enough to make ANY judgements or statements about her. Syl's an INCREDIBLY forgiving person as well as one of the most open minded individuals EVER to post on ODN.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    No. Sounds like a person that is not attracted to black people.
    Now you're just outright lying. I know it. You know it. Admit it. If you heard someone say, in person, that the idea of having sex with a black chick was physically repulsive to them, and they couldn't give you a satisfactory answer, you'd call them a racist (or more realistically, you'd say it mentally).
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Yes of course, but you fail to note that anyone of any race could be jewish. There are black jews, white jews, Latino jews, etc.
    I fail to note it because it wasn't necessary to state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    And from here, as in the above case of the gay man, it is very safe to assume the very same details.
    Not at all. You're attempting to establish that alterable affections to aesthetics are no different than biological hardware. The only way you could go about doing such a thing (remotely successfully) would be to load this page with a bunch of heady nueroscience papers and studies, which are still debateable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Sly of course can correct me in any of the above by being more specific, but of course we would once again have to take her word for it.
    Yes, and you've all but outrightly exposed yourself as someone who's going to write her off as a liar or crazy person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    But why then, if we can at least establish that at somepoint in Sly's life she was attracted to black men, we need to then establish what caused her to no longer be attracted to black men, and if this is even possible.
    Already addressed this. And without her consent, I'll not reveal those details (and with her consent I'll not do so publicly).
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    I don't see how any of that is so hard to believe.
    It's not. That you're repulsed by fat chicks isn't hard to believe. What's hard to believe is that you would be COMPLETELY comfortable with someone saying a black chick disgusted them sexually, but you'd take issue with someone saying, "Black chicks disgust me sexually because I had some bad experiences with a few of them". THAT'S what hard to believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    And of course all of us have many things we are and are not attracted to.
    Right, and you've actually stated that you have no problem with not being attracted to certain things unless someone has a reason not to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    I will again remind you that I am not convinced that Sly simply does not prefer black men.
    Prefer them to what? Not having them? Are you actually going to say that, with the next to NOTHING you know about her, you feel confident to say that she preferred black guys to, I'm guessing, white guys? What if she simply had no preferrence but lived in an area where black was the dominate skin color? And then went from having ZERO preference (and went with what was most common) to having a negative preference (a preference NOT to be with that group)? Or is that, like the concept of a child being rational but wrong, entirely alien to the world-traveling-survival expert-martial arts-pacifist who was so twisted over someone's words that he had to post a THREAD asking for feedback if people thought he could "Kick that guy's ass"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    And we have yet to know exactly why these past experiences were so "lackluster".
    And odds are you, specifically, never will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Hyde, you just admitted to being a racist, and I have just pointed out (Sly's post does this on its own as well) that Sly is a racist.
    And I'll also admit, since it's confession week, that if that upsets you, I don't care. Your feelings mean nothing to me. Okay, hey, we're racist. Whoopty ****in doo. Congrats Prime. You've exposed ODN's KKK member base, and thus foiled our plot to start a KKK private forum here on the boards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    And obese people are people too. I will admit, however, that I too use less than flattering words for obese people. Much like I use racial slurs and all sorts of words deemed "taboo" or "offensive" to many people. But that's neither here nor there. I was just pointing out for the sake of clarity that I never said "fat chicks", you did. You can take it however you want.
    BULL. ****. You weren't "Clarifying" anything. The inclusiory "That's not ver nice, man" is a pretty clear indicator of what you were doing, which was pointing out that I was speaking offensively about others. The fact that you turn around and admit to engaging in the same behavior only tells me you're a hypocrite to boot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    It was in the Survivalism thread, since you claim not to recall. You know, the one you made a real fool of yourself in?
    The one where you said crowbars were too heavy to carry only to be corrected by me? Or the one where you accused me of lying about body hollows only to have Spart come in and correct you? Because I'm thinking you looked pretty foolish in both instances. Or do you mean foolish like saying you're a martial arts expert pacifist and then attempting to poll ODN members as to whether or not you could kick another member's ass?
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    And I don't have to provide any reasons as to why I am heterosexual or why I am not attracted to morbidly obese women. That's just the way it is.
    And Syl doesn't HAVE to provide princess Prime with an explanation as why she's no longer attracted to black guys. You can stamp your little pink heels and demand it all you want, but babe, it just ain't happ'nin.
    Last edited by czahar; May 18th, 2010 at 08:46 PM. Reason: flaming
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  20. #120
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    Re: Would You Want To Have Sex With Black People In SA?

    Guys and girls,

    Listen. I know we are getting into some sensitive territory by talking about race, but this is still a debate forum, and ODN Rules apply here just like they do to every other debate forum. Keep the debates civil, and keep the personal attacks off of ODN. Most of you are doing this, but some of you are teetering dangerously close breaking the rules.

    Play nice. It's that easy.

 

 
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