Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 75

Thread: Is this racist?

  1. #1
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    951
    Post Thanks / Like

    Is this racist?

    Woman X, let's call her "Jane", admits to having had sex with black men and having past relationships with black men.

    Jane one day decides, for reasons she is unwilling to give, that she would no longer have sex with ANY black men ANYWHERE. All Jane says is that she has had nothing but "bad experiences" with black men, and that all her friends have also had nothing but "bad experiences" with black men. Jane claims to no longer be attracted to them because of this.

    Is Jane racist?

  2. #2
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Depends on how you define racism, I suppose. I mean, if "racism" is "I don't find members of "X" group attractive", then yeah, it's racism. On the other hand, if racism is "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race", then maybe not.

  3. #3
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Venus
    Posts
    3,909
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    To be honest, I will base my response on something similar I decided concerning blond men.

    When I was a teenager I had this hunk of a boyfriend. He was athletic and well, every girl's dream. We decided that we want to be a couple, and so we were. So one day I asked him to go with us to our family farm and he accepted the invitation.

    During this holiday things changed in a matter of one night. All of a sudden his attitude towards me changed and the next day he was giving more attention to my sister than me. Of course I am not stupid and I could make my calculations. So he cheated on me with my own sister. Obviously she was more willing to give than I was.

    Not long after that I went out with another guy who was from America. He was an exchange student. Looked just like River Phoenix with thick luscious lips (yammy), and blond hair. After we started going out I caught him on the lounge floor tickling my sister's private parts. grrrr

    So two guys, both blonds cheated on me. That day I promised myself to never fall in love with a blond guy again because they cheat. Did I break the promise to myself? No I never did. In fact I married a man with black hair instead.

    Does this mean I really think that all blond men cheat? No, not necessarily, but I do know that I took the decision and in a way it is a measure I took to prevent myself from getting hurt again. It might be stupid, but it worked till now.

    Whether that makes me 'racist' towards blond men is however for you to decide.
    >>]Aspoestertjie[<<

    ODN Rules

    Join our Facebook Page here!

  4. #4
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,468
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    I'd say not racist for the most part. It could be she develops a sense of racism over time I suppose. Part of the reason its not is the attraction part. I'm not sure anyone has much rational control over what they find attractive and what they don't. If you are turned off from bad experiences thats just the way it is.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  5. #5
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Nacogdoches, TX
    Posts
    137
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    I don't think not being attracted to certain people is racism.

    If I were to say, "I don't find black girls attractive at all. I just wouldn't have sex with one." I wouldn't say that's being racist.

    But if I said, "I can't stand blacks. They all just get on my nerves they all need to sail back to Africa." Yes, I would deffinately say that's like really racist.
    There is no path. Beyond the scope of light - beyond the reach of dark - what could possibly await us?
    And yet we seek it insatiably. Such is our fate.

  6. #6
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    447
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Basically your question can be rephrased like this:

    Does making a personal decision make you racist?

    Does that really need an answer?

  7. #7
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    767
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    So it's everyone's contention here, that generalizing an entire race with a derogatory belief isn't racism?

    .::The Swindall::.

    "...In the beginning, man created god"

  8. #8
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,695
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    I don't think she even needs to have had bad experiences with black men before she is justified in not wanting to date them.

    People are attracted to certain types of people and not attracted to other types of people and it's just natural for there to be all kinds of variations.

    It's not racist to point out the plain fact that the races have differences, in appearance if nothing else so what's wrong with having preferences? And it works the other way. Some people prefer people of a race that's not their own. I know a white girl who prefers black guys over white guys. So is she racist against whites?

  9. #9
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    909
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Jane is racist.

    Attraction alone does not create preconceived judgments. Someone could say, "I have never been attracted to a black person," or "I have dated two black people and both relationships ended poorly," and not necessarily be racist. But this does not define an unmet person as inherently attractive or not. You can say "I am attracted to blondes," but that doesn't mean you won't be attracted to a brunette too. Or that you will be attracted to all blondes you meet.

    In the statements "I have never been attracted to a black person," and "I have dated two black people and both relationships ended poorly," race is used as the primary definition. The person could say "I dated two jackasses" instead, and be just as accurate. Such a labeling of experience, while not false (the two men were certainly black, and certainly poor boyfriends), presumes race as the primary identity and cause of behavior - perhaps a sign that the person needs to re-examine their thought process.

    But to say, "I will no longer be attracted to black people," or "I will never be attracted to black people," is clearly racist:

    1) The judgments of the two black people are lumped together as a racial characteristic (two bad boyfriends were black, therefore it was their blackness that made them so)

    2) This racial characteristic is then applied to all members of the race (previous black boyfriends have led to bad experiences, therefore all black men will make poor boyfriends)

    From this, it can be seen that Dio's definition of racism as "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" applies to this situation.

  10. #10
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,468
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by LagerHead View Post
    Does making a personal decision make you racist?

    Does that really need an answer?
    Sure. Making a personal decision can absolutely be racist.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  11. #11
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    447
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swindall View Post
    So it's everyone's contention here, that generalizing an entire race with a derogatory belief isn't racism?

    Nope. The contention is that just because you make a choice not to have sex with men/women of a certain race doesn't make you racist. It's a personal choice. It doesn't necessarily mean you don't like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telex View Post
    Jane is racist.

    Attraction alone does not create preconceived judgments. Someone could say, "I have never been attracted to a black person," or "I have dated two black people and both relationships ended poorly," and not necessarily be racist. But this does not define an unmet person as inherently attractive or not. You can say "I am attracted to blondes," but that doesn't mean you won't be attracted to a brunette too. Or that you will be attracted to all blondes you meet.

    In the statements "I have never been attracted to a black person," and "I have dated two black people and both relationships ended poorly," race is used as the primary definition. The person could say "I dated two jackasses" instead, and be just as accurate. Such a labeling of experience, while not false (the two men were certainly black, and certainly poor boyfriends), presumes race as the primary identity and cause of behavior - perhaps a sign that the person needs to re-examine their thought process.

    But to say, "I will no longer be attracted to black people," or "I will never be attracted to black people," is clearly racist:

    1) The judgments of the two black people are lumped together as a racial characteristic (two bad boyfriends were black, therefore it was their blackness that made them so)

    2) This racial characteristic is then applied to all members of the race (previous black boyfriends have led to bad experiences, therefore all black men will make poor boyfriends)

    From this, it can be seen that Dio's definition of racism as "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" applies to this situation.
    You're putting words into the argument that weren't originally there. She simply decided not to have sex with black men. It didn't say in his argument that all black men are bad. Certainly it seems to be implied, but that's not necessarily the only conclusion that can be drawn.

    For example, many cultures outside the U.S. still have prearranged marriages, and many people still feel strongly that this is the way it should be. So those people have made a choice not to have sex with other outside their race, but it doesn't mean they are racist. They have made a personal choice based on factors that don't necessarily mean they don't like other races.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Sure. Making a personal decision can absolutely be racist.
    "Can" and "does" are two different things.

  12. #12
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,468
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telex View Post
    From this, it can be seen that Dio's definition of racism as "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" applies to this situation.
    But if the poor experiences changed her feelings she experiences when seeing black people and its not an intellectual aversion but simply an experienced one, is that still racism? I'm not sure it is.

    If you see each black person and think "Ahh, they are black and I have had bad experiences with black people, this one is likely of that kind and I will avoid them because of that."

    That may well be racist, you are making a determined judgement of an individual based on a perception of race.

    but... if you sea each black person and think "Nahhh just not feeling attracted to that guy" you are making a judgement of them directly as an individual even if its only at face value, its just a lack of attraction, whatever its psychological source.

    I realize its all splitting hairs, but it is just that. For me all social change comes from within. So I look for the personal motivations that lead to a kind of systematic oppression rather than those that simply show some manner of natural personal prejudice. Its the rational justifications that I find most abhorrent I suppose because they can be used to enact law as where mere preference is something you have a harder time actually enforcing in the public domain.

    ---------- Post added at 09:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by LagerHead View Post
    "Can" and "does" are two different things.
    Very much so. Each situation has its own unique parameters.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  13. #13
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Jane one day decides...
    Quote Originally Posted by Telex View Post
    But to say, "I will no longer be attracted to black people," or "I will never be attracted to black people," is clearly racist
    Challenge to support a claim.

    (emphasis mine)

    I submit that these are bizarre and gross misrepresentations of the actual condition at hand. Please demonstrate that if a person has a traumatic experience associated with group "X", that they can necessarily make a binary choice in the context you've presented. Without such a demonstration, this example is wholly irrelevant.

    I would submit that in some cases if the person is strongly affected by the negative experience, the condition of choice becomes diminished to the point that it is far more a reaction than a choice. I would submit that such people cannot summon any attraction to members of that group precisely because of the trauma associated with it.

  14. #14
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    951
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Dio, would you say it is possible that Jan may either be actively or subconsciously being dishonest about her decision? Or that she actively or subconsciously represses her sexual attraction towards black men?

    While I of course admit it is plausable that someone could very well change the dynamic of their sexual arousals, you don't find it hard to believe that a person that was once attracted to a certain type of person can up and quit being turned on by them even in the slightest?

    And how are we to determine if Jane is being honest about her change and not just fowarding other agendas such as racism?

  15. #15
    theallnutt
    Guest

    Re: Is this racist?

    No, racism isnt this.

    Racism has a scale, like nearly everything, to determine racism.
    Unless she stated i dont like black men, as whole they arent superior, then yeah.
    If she stated, most the black men ive been with have been rough, then yes.
    But if its a case of comparison to a white asian indigenous, then yes

    Really the reason has to be miniscule, but the racism rule has been blown up cataclysmicly in the modern world

  16. #16
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Dio, would you say it is possible that Jan may either be actively or subconsciously being dishonest about her decision? Or that she actively or subconsciously represses her sexual attraction towards black men?
    Perhaps, but I certainly wouldn't be so presumptuous as to, in an utterly unqualified way, re-interpret her situation in a way that suggests that she made a simple, binary choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    While I of course admit it is plausable that someone could very well change the dynamic of their sexual arousals, you don't find it hard to believe that a person that was once attracted to a certain type of person can up and quit being turned on by them even in the slightest?
    I don't find it hard to believe at all. People's psyche's are unpredictable and dynamic things, and what may affect person "A" in one way may not affect person "B" in the same way, or even at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    And how are we to determine if Jane is being honest about her change and not just fowarding other agendas such as racism?
    I don't know that you can, which is exactly why I forwarded my (currently unanswered) challenge.

  17. #17
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    909
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lagerhead
    You're putting words into the argument that weren't originally there. She simply decided not to have sex with black men. It didn't say in his argument that all black men are bad. Certainly it seems to be implied, but that's not necessarily the only conclusion that can be drawn.
    I did not claim that Jane thinks black men are bad in a general sense. I am working off of the position given in the OP:
    Jane one day decides, for reasons she is unwilling to give, that she would no longer have sex with ANY black men ANYWHERE. All Jane says is that she has had nothing but "bad experiences" with black men, and that all her friends have also had nothing but "bad experiences" with black men. Jane claims to no longer be attracted to them because of this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    But if the poor experiences changed her feelings she experiences when seeing black people and its not an intellectual aversion but simply an experienced one, is that still racism? I'm not sure it is.
    I agree, with the caveat that racism can exist on a subconscious level. But the OP clearly states that Jane has made a conscious declaration that she is no longer attracted to (or will no longer have sex with) black men in general. It isn't that she has not been attracted to any black men she has since met: Jane has decided that no black man that she will ever meet will be worthy of sex. This is a judgment of an entire group based on a presumed racial characteristic ("not good boyfriends" or whatever).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus
    I submit that these are bizarre and gross misrepresentations of the actual condition at hand. Please demonstrate that if a person has a traumatic experience associated with group "X", that they can necessarily make a binary choice in the context you've presented. Without such a demonstration, this example is wholly irrelevant.
    I am responding to the situation in the OP, in which such a choice is presumed. Furthermore, your statement "Please demonstrate that if a person has a traumatic experience associated with group "X"," assumes an association with group X. I am arguing that such an association is not necessary - it is this association that is racist.

    Edit: having reread this, I realize that you are also challenging the OP based on the "real situation at hand." I'm not sure if you are considering the context of Aspo's thread as the "real situation," or the "bad experiences" mentioned in the OP as a reference to a traumatic event. I am not bringing someone's biography into this debate, and am working with "bad experiences" in a general sense. A trauma in which the sight of a black man brings up emotions associated with a traumatic experience with another black man, does not seem to be the situation given in the OP.

    I would submit that in some cases if the person is strongly affected by the negative experience, the condition of choice becomes diminished to the point that it is far more a reaction than a choice. I would submit that such people cannot summon any attraction to members of that group precisely because of the trauma associated with it.
    I understand, but that is not what is presented in the OP. Jane clearly decides that no as-yet-unmet black man will be attractive. This is very different from saying that she has not been attracted to any black man she has met.
    Last edited by Telex; May 19th, 2010 at 04:30 PM.

  18. #18
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telex View Post
    I understand, but that is not what is presented in the OP. Jane clearly decides that no as-yet-unmet black man will be attractive. This is very different from saying that she has not been attracted to any black man she has met.
    That's perfectly fair. I accept that you are addressing only the hypothetical as it was presented in the OP, and I withdraw my challenge to you on that basis.

  19. #19
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Zombie View Post
    Woman X, let's call her "Jane", admits to having had sex with black men and having past relationships with black men.

    Jane one day decides, for reasons she is unwilling to give, that she would no longer have sex with ANY black men ANYWHERE. All Jane says is that she has had nothing but "bad experiences" with black men, and that all her friends have also had nothing but "bad experiences" with black men. Jane claims to no longer be attracted to them because of this.

    Is Jane racist?
    If she claimed that other races where better or superior to black men, then she would be racist. But it seems to me, she is only expressing a preference based on experience.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

  20. #20
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    951
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is this racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Perhaps, but I certainly wouldn't be so presumptuous as to, in an utterly unqualified way, re-interpret her situation in a way that suggests that she made a simple, binary choice.
    Who would be qualified? I think that is part of the problem with getting to the bottom of this issue. There is really only one person that knows the truth, and that is Jane. Of course we can perhaps get a better understanding of Jane's choice based on the more information we can gather regarding her choice and her views in general about race.

    For example, wouldn't we have more of a justified cause to raise a skeptical eyebrow about Jane's claim if she were say, currently dating an admittedly racist white man?

    Plus Jane's choice resembles that white seperatists, in that both WS and Jane want (to certain extents) to be totally seperate from all black men.

    Of course one might argue that white seperatists themselves are not "racist" per say:

    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    Critics claim that contemporary white separatism is a public facade adopted by white supremacists.[2] Supporters of white separatism claim that describing white separatists as white supremacist is a smear.[3]
    ...but it just so happens that many white separatists just happen to be outright racists, such as David Duke and Don Black.

    Are there any non-racist white separatists? I'd like to see an example or three. I'd say the critics are right, and that the WS groups just say they are not to adopt a more palitable facade. While Jane might just say she's not a racist, I think her reasons might be identical to these WS groups. It just doesn't sound very nice to out and out say, "I am a racist."

    What would be very helpful, of course, for the sake of context and relativity, is if we could know more about Jane and/or of Jane were to elaborate on these "bad experiences". And her views on black people in general.

    Would it really surprise you if you could be a fly on the wall at Jane's house and you heard Jane refer to blacks with the N word?

    I don't find it hard to believe at all. People's psyche's are unpredictable and dynamic things, and what may affect person "A" in one way may not affect person "B" in the same way, or even at all.
    I guess I am more skeptical of these kinds of claims. To me it is all too similar to other people that claim to have drastically altered what arouses them sexually. Like the "cured gays" people, who:

    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    ...the American Psychological Association advises people to avoid sexual orientation change efforts that portray homosexuality as a mental illness or developmental disorder...

    ...

    In 2009 the American Psychological Association Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation conducted a systematic review of the peer-reviewed journal literature on sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) and concluded:

    Efforts to change sexual orientation are unlikely to be successful and involve some risk of harm, contrary to the claims of SOCE practitioners and advocates. Even though the research and clinical literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality, regardless of sexual orientation identity, the task force concluded that the population that undergoes SOCE tends to have strongly conservative religious views that lead them to seek to change their sexual orientation. Thus, the appropriate application of affirmative therapeutic interventions for those who seek SOCE involves therapist acceptance, support, and understanding of clients and the facilitation of clients’ active coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, without imposing a specific sexual orientation identity outcome.[2]

    So when people, who used to have sex repeatedly and even enjoy having sex, with one kind of very specific person (like a person of the same sex or a person of a certain race), and more than one of that kind of very specific person (like a person of the same sex or a person of a certain race)... well, I just find it hard to believe. And at the very least there is evidence and experts that suggest that similarly dramatic changes in a person's mind, as with "gay converts", is at the very least, questionable.

    I don't know that you can, which is exactly why I forwarded my (currently unanswered) challenge.
    I will not press this point, as the challenge has been withdrawn. I must admit it was an interesting and well worded challenge, none-the-less, and helped to move the debate forward. So thanks for that.

 

 
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Canadians racist for giving refugee status to a white SA man
    By Aspoestertjie in forum Member Contributed News
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: September 5th, 2009, 05:09 PM
  2. Eminem is NOT racist.
    By Swindall in forum Shootin' the Breeze / Off-Topic
    Replies: 159
    Last Post: August 14th, 2009, 06:19 PM
  3. Finally some sensibility.
    By chadn737 in forum Politics
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: July 30th, 2009, 08:17 PM
  4. Replies: 44
    Last Post: September 15th, 2006, 10:53 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •