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  1. #41
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    Re: Should Abortions be funded by the Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd
    Apparently, the threat of abortion isn't enough to curb the behavior of those having an abortion, so I'd suggest stronger measures are needed.
    Apparently, the threat of killing someone and going to jail isn't enough to curb the behavior of those receiving DUI's. How much preventative care do we need to put out there to protect society from themselves?
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  2. #42
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    Re: Should Abortions be funded by the Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I personally do not see abortion as a form of rescue. What I am saying is that people who do not want their children should be able to seek out a government funded abortion because in the long term, it's better for society.
    It's not better for society if the result is that more people act irresponsibly more often because they expect to be delivered from consequences by some "parental figure" (i.e. state).

    Before I answer this, I just need clarification. Are you claiming an abortion is a feel-goody bandaid sort of solution? Sure am looking at the long term effects. Welfare mother gives birth, raises child on welfare, statistics show that said child will continue the cycle. Or, we can dish out an abortion that costs significantly less and be done with it. It would be interesting to see if I could find statistics about repeat abortions. So far all I am coming up with are sites from pro-life organizations.
    Absolutly not. I'm suggesting that allowing government to fund abortions for people who behave irresponsibly is a "feel-goody" bandaid sort of solution. Abortion itself isn't something that I find objectionable. I think that it's infinitely harmful to society to willy-nilly deliver irresponsible people from the consequences of their irresponsible behavior.

    But we have the choice to get onto the road.
    We sure do. I don't advocate either option, actually. I'm simply pointing out where the arguement might come from... might. I don't buy it myself.

    Unfortunately we can't make anyone do anything they don't want to do. I wouldn't be opposed to abortion insurance either. I'd add it onto my policy if it were available.
    Wouldn't that be great? Everyone who might consider getting an abortion have a line item in their insurance policy... And never again do we worry about the state paying for abortion........ wait... Nevermind.

    ---------- Post added at 10:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Apparently, the threat of killing someone and going to jail isn't enough to curb the behavior of those receiving DUI's. How much preventative care do we need to put out there to protect society from themselves?
    You're right. The threat of jail doesn't seem to curb ANY behavior whatsoever... What exactly you think WOULD curb this kind of irresponsible behavior?
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


  3. #43
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    Re: Should Abortions be funded by the Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by LP
    It's not better for society if the result is that more people act irresponsibly more often because they expect to be delivered from consequences by some "parental figure" (i.e. state).
    We can't draw an absolute conclusion from this. I need to research other countries who fund abortions and what the statistics looked like before and after.


    I think that it's infinitely harmful to society to willy-nilly deliver irresponsible people from the consequences of their irresponsible behavior.
    I look at abortion as a consequence so perhaps this is why I'm okay with government funded abortion, just the same as I am for government funded detention centers.

    You're right. The threat of jail doesn't seem to curb ANY behavior whatsoever... What exactly you think WOULD curb this kind of irresponsible behavior?
    I'm not sure. It's trial and error. I have to see, and touch something to understand. Usually, I need a natural consequence. For example I wouldn't have been a teen mom if I would have had the opportunity to spend sleepless nights with a newborn. Natural consequence, indeed. My daughter? You simply tell her something is bad, and don't do it, and she's good. She fears things we tell her are bad. My son is like me. You can shout and hollar that something is bad, and not to do it. That kid will still jump off the kitchen table when you aren't looking and end up with stitches. I guess my very verbose point is that people learn differently. So I'm not sure what we can do to prevent irresponsible decisions. I will say a lot of it begins as a child with the parents, and schools.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  4. #44
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    Re: Should Abortions be funded by the Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    We can't draw an absolute conclusion from this. I need to research other countries who fund abortions and what the statistics looked like before and after.
    You do that. But I can tell you as a mother, children do not learn to be responsible by being shielded from consequences. Adults are not much different.

    I look at abortion as a consequence so perhaps this is why I'm okay with government funded abortion, just the same as I am for government funded detention centers.
    Abortion is a consequence. But so is having to go through with a pregnancy because you didn't think FAR ENOUGH AHEAD to have been able to guarantee that if you get into that position, you can get out of it. It's all about consequences of poor planning. Why should I go through the effort of being responsible if you're just going to give me an "easy out?"

    I'm not sure. It's trial and error. I have to see, and touch something to understand. Usually, I need a natural consequence.
    Trust me. I was a teen mother. I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm the one who needs to burn my hand before I understand that fire hurts.

    As parents, naturally, we want our children to not have to suffer pain. We experience pain, we don't want our children to have to experience the same pain. So the first order of business is to tell our kids about consequences. Some kids will get it straight away. Some kids need practical application. Adults are the same. "Look, you have sex, you're taking a risk. If you're not prepared for the consequences, you shouldn't be taking those risks." Then, when they eff up, and they take those risks without proper preparation, you allow them to suffer, because obviously, they need practical application to understand. If you rob them of the natural consequence, in this case, by paying for the abortion for them, instead of making them figure it out on their own, they're never going to learn that lesson, and they're much more likely to repeat the same risky behavior.

    That's how I see it, anyhow.
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


  5. #45
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    Re: Should Abortions be funded by the Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by LP
    You do that. But I can tell you as a mother, children do not learn to be responsible by being shielded from consequences. Adults are not much different.
    I don't see this as shielding them from a consequence.

    Why should I go through the effort of being responsible if you're just going to give me an "easy out?"
    This is where I think we're bumping heads. I view abortion as an absolutely horrific experience that I hope NO ONE EVER has to go through. The worst consequence that can come from an unwanted pregnancy. No matter HOW pro choice I am I will never ignore how painful, and disturbing an abortion can be.

    I do not see funding the abortion as escaping the natural consequence. For the most part I see it as an act of kindness. You messed up, we'll help you fix this. A natural consequence does not cease to exist because there is a community/person/government to help you. I would like to believe and do believe that most people would understand that this was their one get out of jail free card. Lesson learned.

    With that said, I would not support the government funding multiple abortions.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  6. #46
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    Re: Should Abortions be funded by the Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    This is where I think we're bumping heads. I view abortion as an absolutely horrific experience that I hope NO ONE EVER has to go through. The worst consequence that can come from an unwanted pregnancy. No matter HOW pro choice I am I will never ignore how painful, and disturbing an abortion can be.

    I do not see funding the abortion as escaping the natural consequence.
    I would argue that the majority of girls getting abortions don't agree with you here. They don't have the same sort of sense of pride or dignity you do, unfortunately. Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I don't think of "most girls" out there getting abortions as virtuous enough to have one given to them and then suddenly clean up their behavior. The same isn't true today of abortions that are funded in any way... I don't think government funding is going to change this. Government funding just adds a level of me being forced to pay for something at gunpoint I don't morally agree with.
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


  7. #47
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    Re: Should Abortions be funded by the Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    My point is that there are plenty of children waiting to be adopted, but, older children are overlooked for new babies. All these people waiting for babies could very well be adopting toddlers, tweens, teenagers, ect. . .
    Again, if people wanted to adopt newborns, what would magically make them want to adopt older children instead?

    Not to play the link game, but this website lays it out pretty well. .

    http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42
    The costs are for incarceration, not execution. We were arguing the monetary point of the very act, abortion vs execution. Executions themselves are not as expensive as years in prison; the cost of a "death row inmate" actually comes from the over-and-above legal counsel and investigation which comes with the state killing a person. It's all court cost and "the people's time," which is all made up anyway. So, the point stands.

    (By the by, that is a horrible web site... More than 3500 men and woman have received this sentence in California since 1978 and NOT ONE has been released, except those few individuals who were able to prove their innocence." Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't those exceptions constitute "many ones"? Why did they capitalize NOT ONE as a huge thing and then trash their own point with truth? Was that written by a fourth grader?)

    From my understanding the prices range from $400.00-$1500.00 depending on your trimester. Logically, at least to me, abortion would be cheaper in the first trimester, which is when most abortions take place.
    So, a little more than I pay for car insurance in a year. Should the government pay my car insurance?

    This point also stands.

    I would absolutely support free nose jobs if there was a medical reason for it.
    But elective abortions don't have a medical reason behind them, or else they'd be called medically necessary abortions. So, why do you support the government paying for one elective procedure and not the other?

    Sure, but that isn't the point. People have sex, married couples have sex, single people, teenagers, crack heads, politicians, and clegery all have sex. Mistakes happen. Sometimes the measures we take to avoid accidents fail. Sometimes, people are too young/immature/drugged up to think about the long term consequences of their actions.
    Should we start paying for every situation where people don't consider the long term consequences? That is MY entire point - consequences. Having sex can lead to pregnancy, and EVERYBODY knows this. So, why should I pay for someone who is too young/immature/drugged up to think about the consequences and not have them pay for those consequences themselves? That is the driving point behind every one of my posts in this thread! If you answer no other question, please answer this one.

    Let's imagine the insurance company as the government, and our payments are taxes. My premiums go up because of irreponsible drivers. Where's the outrage? The government requires that we have car insurance in some capacity in all states, if I recall. Do you have the same view point about car insurance as you do abortion?
    There is a very easy way out of paying for car insurance: Don't drive or have a loan out against a car. Cars aren't mandatory, but insurance only is if you plan on using one.

    So, why should my premiums (taxes) go up because of irresponsible people not wanting to pay for their own mistakes? This is a valid point when you consider that having sex is as mandatory as owning a car.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Should Abortions be funded by the Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Apparently, the threat of killing someone and going to jail isn't enough to curb the behavior of those receiving DUI's. How much preventative care do we need to put out there to protect society from themselves?
    I don't believe in govt sponsored preventative care (i.e. laws which restrict behavior) for anything for the reason of protecting people from themselves. But, if your behavior costs me money, then I guess I'd favor restricting that behavior. So, if I have to pay for someone's abortion, then I should have the right to demand their behavior is restricted so they cannot continue to use my money to fund their abortions.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

 

 
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