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  1. #21
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    I'm opining on the arguments so far more than trying to establish my own....

    I think looking at this topic from the perspective of Manc I can see how he looks at Jesus's teachings and can find justification for a Communist or Socialist ideal. I think that comes more from the Socialist opposition to a class delineated society than from an economic or political perspective.

    Keep in mind that socialism was designed to address the notion of a powerful and wealthy few taking economic and political advantage of a larger majority of working class people. It is a system designed to address a specific wrong.

    Jesus many times spoke of breaking down such barriers in the context of religion, a rebellion against the priestly class and its implied moral and social authority which created an exclusive society of the holy and a large mass of the unholy. This religions classism was often paralleled with economic classism.

    Jesus was also in rejection of the trappings of worldly wealth and power and instead emphasized a focus on spiritual values and prosperity. I think he sought to create support for himself as a spiritual leader by undermining the worldly authority of the wealthy priest class and the roman government.

    But Communism implies a much broader application of some of these notions, and has little or nothing to do with others (such as spiritual over material focus). Communism is just as concerned or perhaps more concerned about wealth than any other given political system.

    Jesus was not a Communist, but I would think he'd be a socialist sympathizer if he were a contemporary person. The spirit of selfless generosity and community over individual needs seem very consistent with his personality and teachings.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  2. #22
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    That there are a few similarities in ideals, in no way argues for harmonious synchronization between beliefs. I explained why this is so in my previous post.

    Also to add:
    "In its positive meaning the Church of the poor signifies the preference given to the poor, without exclusion, whatever the form of their poverty, because they are preferred by God...But the theologies of liberation...go on to a disastrous confusion between the poor of the Scripture and the proletariat of Marx. In this way they pervert the Christian meaning of the poor, and they transform the fight for the rights of the poor into a class fight within the ideological perspective of the class struggle." - Pope Benedict XVI
    A good summation from American Thinker journalist Kyle-Anne Shiver that I agree with:

    Jesus did make many statements about the virtues of being generous with one's own material wealth, whether it be great or small. However, the innate crux of every one of Jesus' admonitions to give to those less fortunate was freedom. Unless the deed was done freely, according to the giver's own free will, there was no blessing in the deed at all.

    Jesus was not a political person. While He understood the institution of government was necessary, He taught that the ways of man were flawed and temporary...and that what all people (servant or master, male or female, Jew or gentile, Greek or Roman, etc...) ought to be concerned with is what is true (according to Him), perfect and eternal.

    To make Jesus into some political icon or poster boy for a certain political view is to grossly miss Jesus' purpose (as declared by Him), nature, worldview and value system.

    It's like saying Muhammad Ali is a vegetarian because he was an advocate for being healthy, and vegetarians are advocates for being healthy. It's completely nonsensical. It's trying to mix oil and water. It doesn't work and there is no reason for it. There are plenty of examples of healthy vegetarians and there are plenty of things that Ali stood for. Forcing these 2 to meet and result in what the argument maker WANTS to happen, doesn't result in a favorable outcome. It just results in the argument proving to be extremely flawed.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    I don't normally answer posts out of sequence, but its a bit late here in the UK so I might save Apo's long one for tomoz...

    Sigfried, cheers, good post. I will just expand on one of your points.

    Marxism is a materialist philosophy. This is not the same as saying 'so and so is materialist', ie only interested in material things. It means that it is part of the strand of philosophy materialism, which means that human thoughts come from our observations of nature.

    There is little doubt that Marx did not believe in God in his adult life. However Marx talked about man achieving his true spiritual life in a socialist society...

    "Estranged labor turns thus:

    (3) Manís species-being, both nature and his spiritual species-property, into a being alien to him, into a means of his individual existence. It estranges from man his own body, as well as external nature and his spiritual aspect, his human aspect.

    (4) An immediate consequence of the fact that man is estranged from the product of his labor, from his life activity, from his species-being, is the estrangement of man from man. When man confronts himself, he confronts the other man. What applies to a manís relation to his work, to the product of his labor and to himself, also holds of a manís relation to the other man, and to the other manís labor and object of labor.

    In fact, the proposition that manís species-nature is estranged from him means that one man is estranged from the other, as each of them is from manís essential nature."

    This is not a supernatural spirituality of course, but is man's true spirit. Capitalism alienates.

    ---------- Post added at 11:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    People were selling product at exorbitant prices for ceremony on the temple grounds. This is not in accordance with Mosaic Law.
    Yeah cheers Luke cash

  4. #24
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    This is not a supernatural spirituality of course, but is man's true spirit. Capitalism alienates.
    Challenge to support a claim. Please support these claims, and provide us with an explanation of why they are relevant to the issue.
    There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    Because it is yet another thing that separates Jesus from communists; communists are looking for a permanent equality of wealth, while Jesus and his disciples are simply looking for a temporary, earthly one. Just listen to this description of Heaven:



    Jesus may be telling people to cast away their wealth, but reading it in the context of the Bible he is simply telling the wealthy to cast away their riches in this world in the hopes of gaining more riches in the next world. That is not giving away wealth. That is temporarily parting with wealth to attain greater wealth. It would be like me giving away my cottage to get a mansion in Beverly Hills.

    And are all people going to be able to enjoy this wealth? Of course not. There is no equality of wealth in the afterlife.



    And of course, considering that Heaven is a place for the chosen few, it is not like these people suffering at the bottom would be an isolated minority. And not only will the chasm between them be bigger than that which sits between the earthly rich and poor (as there is no spiritual equivalent of the middle class), but it will be longer (eternal) and far more painful (full of burning sulfur).

    In conclusion, Jesus may have promoted an extremely short, earthly period of financial equality, but in the long run his and his father's plans could not be further from an ideal socialist/communist world. If anything, existence in the Christian Bible has far more inequality and suffering than anything that could ever exist in even the worst capitalist dystopia.
    He! he! Interesting post!

    You know, my old man used to be a preacher (too old now), but he never once said I would go to hell for not believing. Many Christians don't take all that hell stuff too literally. In fact he said it was more like a bad place in your mind on earth, e.g. being plagued by guilt or whatever.

    As you say, it does sound a bit ****.

    I once asked a Born again, who would go to heaven, a person who lived an evil life, but believed on his deathbed, or a person who lived a selfless atheist life. Of course he said the good person would go to hell and the bad one would go to heaven.

    So, what we have is a kind of blackmail. Anyway, I will leave that sort of stuff to others. Its not my intention to criticise Christianity, only Christians who twist Jesus' words.

    ---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    Challenge to support a claim. Please support these claims, and provide us with an explanation of why they are relevant to the issue.
    Not particularly worth going into on this thread, its a different topic. It was just an aside. But in a nutshell, you are alienated from each other and yourself by the relations of production. For example, we use money instead of human relationships to organise distribution. The disciples didn't, they distributed to each according to his need, a la Karl Marx. The hungry don't have food because they don't have money. Money is blind to their hunger. As far as the free market is concerned they do not exist.

    ---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post

    I think it says what it says. The poor will go to heaven, the rich will not.

    Great. But again, you have not supported that.
    Lets keep this simple.

    "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
    will come back to the rest tomorrow,

  6. #26
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Not particularly worth going into on this thread, its a different topic. It was just an aside. But in a nutshell, you are alienated from each other and yourself by the relations of production. For example, we use money instead of human relationships to organise distribution. The disciples didn't, they distributed to each according to his need, a la Karl Marx. The hungry don't have food because they don't have money. Money is blind to their hunger. As far as the free market is concerned they do not exist.
    If that is so, then please stop going off topic. It's basically equivalent to spamming, and you do it rather often.

    Its not my intention to criticise Christianity, only Christians who twist Jesus' words.
    You have been challenged to support the claim that we are twisting His words, and you have not replied to it. I think I am speaking for all other Theists who have been following this debate in saying that if you don't address those challenges directly and with actual evidence or an experts support for the scripture being interpreted otherwise, you are giving us your concession.
    There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    Lets keep this simple.
    That was already refuted.

    Let's seal the nail in the coffin here...

    Communism holds that it should be mandated (not freely chosen) to take away from those who have and give to those who do not.

    Nowhere is such a passage to be found in the Bible. In fact, it says just the opposite. Before I get started, I've taken liberties and edited Tom Snyder's essay (from WND) for the purposes of this discussion as it contains pertinent arguments and references.

    The Bible presents 3 ways to help the needy and poor:
    1. through the family
    2. through the church
    3. through individual charity

    Deuteronomy 14:28, 29, Numbers 18:24, Matthew 6:1-4 and 1 Timothy 5:3-16.

    People's first obligation is to the needy, poor, widowed and orphaned in their own families. Only after they do this do they have any obligation to help the needy, poor, widowed and orphaned through their local church organization.

    God established the pattern for this kind of church giving in Numbers 18:24 and Deuteronomy 14:28, 29. As David Chilton points out in his book "Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators," the bulk of Christian giving to the local church should be geared toward financing professional theologians, experts in biblical law and church discipline, teachers of God's word and leaders skilled in worship. It was only every third year that all the giving was set aside to help the needy, poor, widowed and orphaned. Even then, the money was not given just to anyone who showed up. Those able to work but don't do not qualify for help. This tells us immediately that the focus isn't merely on the amount of wealth has, but something different, something more important. Also, those who have families to take care of them don't qualify, nor do widows under age 60 qualify, according to the Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 5:3-16.

    Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh, talks about the third way in Matthew 6: 1-4. He tells His listeners that they should give individual charity. He also says they should give such charity secretly: "Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."

    In other words, Jesus is not a socialist. Not Jesus, nor Moses or any other prophets or men of God cite cite the government as the means by which the poor, needy, widowed and orphaned are housed, clothed and fed.

    On that note, it is interesting to recall that the 10th Commandment in Exodus 20:17 actually protects private property by commanding people not to covet their neighbor's house or belongings. That commands applies to the average citizen as well as the elected official, the judge and all other government officials.

    Furthermore, the Bible condemns laziness and praises hard work. Proverbs 10:4 says, "Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth." Proverbs 14:23 says, "All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty."

    Here we learn that wealth is the positive result of working hard. This is completely anti-communist (or anti-socialist). Instead, this is capitalist philosophy. To earn what one is worth? That work brings profit while talking results in poverty? That success of wealth is brought on by hard work? These are all things that the communist despises. Yet, God says it.

    Finally, it is interesting to note that, in Mark 7:20-23, not only does Jesus Christ declare that all sex outside of heterosexual marriage, including homosexuality, pre-marital sex and adultery, is evil, he also declares that both greed and envy are evil. Thus, Jesus Christ condemns both the greed of the rich man as well as the greed of the poor man, and the envy of the poor man as well as the envy of the rich man.

    Jesus addressed the roots of man's problems and shortcomings. There is no moral value in and of itself in wealth or the lack thereof...it is one's worldview of wealth that is to be examined. Does the poor man envy? Then he is immoral. Is rich man greedy? Then he is immoral. Is the poor man a hard worker, providing for his family, perhaps even having ambition to bring himself out of poverty? Then he is moral (in this respect). Is the rich man generous and humble? Then he is moral.

    Wealth in and of itself is not immoral as you have claimed. It isn't money that is the root of all evil...but the love of money...it's greed. Greed is not synonymous with wealth accumulation...but rather prioritizing it above that of God and of man.

    ---------- Post added at 02:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    You have been challenged to support the claim that we are twisting His words, and you have not replied to it. I think I am speaking for all other Theists who have been following this debate in saying that if you don't address those challenges directly and with actual evidence or an experts support for the scripture being interpreted otherwise, you are giving us your concession.
    He's been officially challenged to do so. As such, either he must stop making the unfounded claims, or actually support them. So either way, such practice comes to a halt immediately as a result of the challenge(s).
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    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  8. #28
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post

    So many problems I don't know where to start.

    1) To rely on your own lack of education and insist that those with education are wrong is perhaps the worst argument that could possibly be made. It says "I am right by virtue of being ignorant and they are wrong by virtue of being more educated than myself."

    You are publicly admitting that one should not understanding ancient linguistic styles and nuances, culture, ancient law, etc... that one does not need context to derive meaning (and in fact, should do away with), that one should take everything read literally and ignore the many literary styles, etc...

    You are saying that you champion ignorance over intelligence. I'd be very careful here with such a position, it has the tendency to follow you through the community. The position that it's better to be mentally numb to facts, evidence, expert study, conclusion and experience...than it is to be educated and value those things...is not a position that is capable of standing up to scrutiny for what should be, obvious reasons.
    Waffle. Squirming. Twisting. Desperate. These are words that spring to mind. Jesus said what he said. He intended what he said to be clearly understood by all. he intended everything he said to be easily memorised in small chunks. He was a communication genius.

    YOU explain to ME what Jesus meant when he said

    it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God

    You wont do it. You will just say this or that, about how it wasn't meant literally, you will say I am too stupid to understand the meaning. You will say he didn't mean rich, didn't mean man, didn't mean camel. What he meant was in fact the opposite of what he said. You are twisting the words of Jesus into their opposite.

    Don't 'neg rep' me just because you cant or wont understand my simple point. Don't try to slander my intelligence or my character.

    ---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post

    2) According to such reasoning, when Jesus says He is the lamb, he's literally a lamb...after all, He said it, it's clear. And when He says he's the light...he is literally some sort of torch...after all, he said it. And when He says he is the gate, well, you get the picture. Such an understanding of language is extremely problematic. It may work to justify false beliefs...but it won't work for educated, reasonable beings.
    No, Jesus did not mean he is a literal lamb. You would have to be more stupid than the most stupid person in the world to think that.

    Why are you saying such things?

    ---------- Post added at 10:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    3) You allege that scholars "waffle". And as usual, offer no support. It may be convenient to make such charges, but such tactics do not go unchallenged in a real debate by real debaters.

    Ok, you paste some explanations of this

    it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God

    Lets have a look. I did not spend time analysing your previous pastes, but I will this time.

    ---------- Post added at 11:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Challenge to support a claim. #1
    Support that the lack of education trumps education. That ignorance grants one wisdom and truth and that expertise and education results in flawed understanding of what one is an expert of.
    I never said lack of education trumps education. I already answered this. Many times. However, seeing as it is a challenge I will answer it again.

    Jesus passed his message to man by word of mouth. He intended it it be spread to everyone on the planet, so they could be saved, so he would want it to be:


    a. easily memorised, succinct

    b. easy to understand, especially to the uneducated

    If he talked in a way nobody could understand, he would be an idiot, but he was the son of god, so presumably fairly on the ball.


    Why would he say stuff which was so obscure you needed a scholar to be able to understand it? What logic would there be? And Im not gonna be particularly impressed by 'oh this was 2000 years ago' he would have said it so his words would stand the test of time.




    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Challenge to support a claim. #2
    Support that everything in the Bible is intended to be literal and that there are not multiple literary styles, and that context and language nuances are not to be used in deriving meaning from ancient text. It's a multiple part challenge.

    I never said 'everything in the bible is intended to be literal'. I never even said everything Jesus said was intended to be literal. I said that Jesus was very clever at getting his message to be easily understood. Sometimes he would say literal stuff, other times he would use graphic phrases or parables. But always, as far as I've seen, the meaning is obvious. So for instance when he says its easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle etc, the meaning is clear, and the image of a camel trying to squeeze through the eye of a needle makes a great mental image which makes it extremely memorable, as I said, he was a genius at communication, as one would expect from the son of god.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Challenge to support a claim. #3
    Support that these experts have "waffled" in any way shape or form on their position in these verse.
    As I said, paste some 'experts' 'interpreting' the camel / needle bit and I will go through them. Not that I couldnt go through the previous ones, but I am interested to see what these 'experts' have to tell us on this, so we can kill two birds with one stone (I don't mean that literally, by the way).

    ---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Challenge to support a claim. #4
    Create an actual coherent, cogent rebuttal instead of merely repeating the same responded to argument.

    Now...before you proceed, you should be aware of our community rules governing the challenges.

    When challenged...you have 3 and only 3 viable options.
    1) The challenge may be ignored, but no further line of argumentation that was originally challenged, may be posted. It is a "quiet concession" of sorts.

    2) Address the challenge directly by answering it.

    3) Publicly concede the point being challenged.

    If there is any deviation from the above 3 (for instance, continuing the line of argumentation even though it has been challenged...and the challenge goes unmet), it is considered trolling (which is considered an infractionable offense).
    coherent cogent rebuttal to what? Everything you have said? I already have done. You are merely saying that its not coherent or cogent. I could equally say that everything you have written is a pile of nonsense. I wouldn't go quite that far, you are just regurgitating the old excuses people have come up with to ignore Jesus' teachings. You shouldn't have entrenched yourself like this, it must make life hard for you. Don't blame me. I am just quoting the bible. You are the one who says we cant believe what it says, without changing its meaning drastically. This is patently nonsense and I have given logical reason why.

    ---------- Post added at 11:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post


    'Sell your possessions' does not need an academic to translate. Jesus did not intend his words to be impossible for as non-scholar to understand. Jesus said it, and the disciples did it.
    No one said any such thing. Now you are creating a strawman. What is under contention is not that Jesus said sell your possessions, but rather the reason WHY He said it, the lesson to be learned, who He is talking to and the extent of doing so.

    I provided support for the actual meaning. You insisting "nuh-uh" is not proper debate.

    On this passage:
    Challenge to support a claim. #1
    Support your position that Jesus saying this at this time to this group of people means that all Christians everywhere should do so.

    Challenge to support a claim. #2
    Using your "logic", and considering that Jesus said to sell your possession and buy a sword...it means that Jesus wants Christians to sell their goods and prepare to fight...everyone.

    After all..."Why not let him speak for himself? His words are usually very straightforward. He either tells it straight or puts in in a simple parable."

    Not only do you claim to be the official uneducated authority on what Jesus meant, but you also ignore the fact that Jesus wants the money earned from selling possessions, to be spent on warfare.

    You can't have it both ways. Using your own misunderstanding, you have refuted yourself...OR you have to admit to not being consistent. Which is it?

    I cannot find where you explained the actual meaning, you need to paste the exact bit or mention the post number. You did talk about it in the context of the rich man, attempting a theory that Jesus only meant it for him. But Jesus said it in a general way as well

    Do Not Worry

    22Then Jesus said to his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[b]? 26Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
    27"Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! 29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

    32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
    So he says it to a rich man, he says it to his disciples, and he says all the other stuff like woe to the rich, the camel and the needle, countless things. If you look at the ENTIRETY, if you "take the plank out of your eye" you will see the picture very clearly.

    Again you will say, 'well this is just the disciples', and I will say ' there is always a handy excuse isn't there'.

    The disciples were supposed to pass his message to the rest of humanity.




    Do not judge, and you will not be judged

    Oh, re the buying of a sword, Jesus later that night rebuked one person for asking if they should fight back if attacked.

    What he meant exactly is obviously related to the specific events going on, he was about to be arrested. Two swords would not be enough to defend the group, but might have been some sort of symbolic defence. It may have been a last resort - self defence if needed at a particular time. Jesus was controlling events, he had his reasons at that moment in time. He was to die on the cross. He wanted to drag that cross up a mountain.

    ---------- Post added at 11:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    .

    • Jesus never says anywhere that it is impossible to be saved because one is rich.
    • Jesus does say that all men can be saved regardless of status, nationality or status (servant or master).
    • Jesus says it is hard for some rich to be saved because they value their possessions more than Jesus. This is not the same as it being impossible.
    • Rich men were saved and they were seen as being good and wise by God. A point you continue to ignore.
    • Explanations as to why and what, were given by expert scholars on the matter


    So...
    Challenge to support a claim.
    Support your argument given the facts above.

    Camel, needle? Remember? You said a rich man was saved in the Old Testament. This thread is about Jesus, and what he actually said. It is impossible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, so therefore impossible for a rich man to go to heaven, after Jesus said that.

    ---------- Post added September 8th, 2010 at 12:05 AM ---------- Previous post was September 7th, 2010 at 11:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post

    Of course I know Jesus had already been crucified. Jesus told the rich to give up their possessions.
    ..no...you didn't. You thought that a) someone was giving a command where they were not and that b) Jesus was giving the sermon when Peter was. It's evident in your language. You quote the text, then say that Jesus made a command. This never happens. It's dishonest discourse manc.

    You are talking rubbish. The disciples were doing what Jesus had told them to. Acts comes after he was crucified. Dont call me stupid and dishonest, you just make yourself look stupid.





    [/QUOTE]
    Last edited by manc; September 8th, 2010 at 12:49 AM.

  9. #29
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post

    Of course I know Jesus had already been crucified. Jesus told the rich to give up their possessions.
    ..no...you didn't. You thought that a) someone was giving a command where they were not and that b) Jesus was giving the sermon when Peter was. It's evident in your language. You quote the text, then say that Jesus made a command. This never happens. It's dishonest discourse manc.

    You are talking rubbish. The disciples were doing what Jesus had told them to. Acts comes after he was crucified. Dont call me stupid and dishonest, you just make yourself look stupid.





    [/QUOTE]

    ---------- Post added at 12:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post


    He didn't make them rich did he? He made everyone, apparently. And gave them a free choice. To live as Jesus advocated, or to be selfish. The selfish won't get into heaven.
    Wait. You have been continually arguing that we should just be able to quote the Bible. Now you are being inconsistent. Your methods for interpretation are all over the board here. You insist that it is acceptable to cherry-pick ONLY when it is favorable for you to do so. But when we employ the same "method" (which is frankly, absurd and no scholar Christian, atheist or otherwise would agree with) on passages that refute your position or become problematic, it cannot be used by virtue that it exposes your methodology as flawed.

    It's yet another example of inconsistency manc. '

    I have continually argued that we should quote Jesus, and his disciples obviously, I'm not gonna debate every word in the Old Testament!



    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post


    Well obviously god's not not gonna let some evil bastard in purely because he was poor.
    Why not? According to your "logic", He must, after all, Jesus is pretty straight forward.

    Because it contradicts a whole lot of stuff he said.

    You are playing a complex word game, so you think, you are accusing me of cherry picking, dishonesty, blah blah blah. I will leave it to the reader to judge.

    You can leave it to god.

    Yes, some of the things jesus said seem contradictory. I explained that earlier, I think. He lived in a very turbulent time. Contradictions are part of life, you will find contradictions in everything.

    Sometimes you need to look at the big picture, sometimes you need to look at the details.

    ---------- Post added at 12:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    That there are a few similarities in ideals, in no way argues for harmonious synchronization between beliefs. I explained why this is so in my previous post.
    Nice how you can admit that to Sigfried but not me. The right wing are scared of me, so they try to belittle my character. It won't wash.

    I never, for a moment, except in the catchy title, suggested that there was a synchronisation between beliefs. I said Jesus said a few things that sounded a bit socialist. Now you are admitting there are a few similarities. After all!

    Lets face it, you dont really understand much about what socialism is, but its pretty obvious that these things Jesus said were closer to socialism than capitalism.

    Lets take world hunger. Millions of children starve to death each year. There is no need for this. It could be cured instantly. All that suffering, gone.

    There is enough food to feed everyone. But the poor dont get food.

    So, if Jesus was alive today, what would he be saying? That the status quo is just fine? Vote Republican?

    This of course is conjecture. I find it unlikely. He fed the 5000, he always talked about helping the poor. He would be expecting the rich to lend a hand to the poor.

    I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me

    ---------- Post added at 12:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post

    This is not a supernatural spirituality of course, but is man's true spirit. Capitalism alienates.

    Challenge to support a claim. Please support these claims, and provide us with an explanation of why they are relevant to the issue.
    Well I was just replying to something Sigfreid said. There is such a thing as 'atheist spirituality'.

    Marx understood that human spirituality was crushed by the conditions of life. A person slaving in a factory, desperately trying to pay the bills etc, is not living to his full human potential. His spirit is crushed by his existence. For instance he has little control of his life, he does what the boss says, the boss keeps the fruits of his labour, even his ideas. At the end of the day the boss gives him a thing called money, which enables him to buy back SOME of the products he created.

    A man is therefore alienated from his work, from others, and from himself.

    Marx understood that religion represented man's spirituality, seeing as his spirituality was crushed on earth it had religion to express it.


    If you look up the word alienation, wikipedia will offer you social alienation, where it basically talks about Marx.

    Ok, lets compare a person working in a factory, to a person living in a primitive hunter gatherer tribe. Who do you think has the fullest relationships during his day?

    wikipedia:

    In sociology and critical social theory, alienation refers to an individual's estrangement from traditional community and others in general. It is considered by many that the atomism of modern society means that individuals have shallower relations with other people than they would normally. This, it is argued, leads to difficulties in understanding and adapting to each other's uniqueness (see normlessness). It is also sometimes referred to as commodification, emphasizing the compatibility of capitalism with alienation (a common theme of the early work of Karl Marx; see Marx's theory of alienation).
    It explains why people turn to religion.

    ---------- Post added at 12:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------

    "The ultimate and most important revolutionary aspiration: to see human beings liberated from their alienation... The individual will reach total consciousness as a social being, which is equivalent to the full realization as a human creature, once the chains of alienation are broken. This will be translated concretely into the reconquering of one's true nature through liberated labor, and the expression of one's own human condition through culture and art."
    ó Che Guevara

    ---------- Post added at 12:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 AM ----------

    Marxism and Spirituality: An International Anthology. - book reviews

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...5/ai_14862532/

    worth a look maybe

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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    I am conceding nothing. Hundreds of thousands, millions, of Christian socialists agree with me. In America it is true the Christians seem mainly aligned with the right. This is a travesty of the message of Jesus. Its all there in the New Testament. Its easy to understand.

    No of course Jesus wasn't a socialist as such, because socialism wasn't possible in those days. Also, Jerusalem was rife with class hatred and brewing revolution, and he didn't want to get executed for organising rebellion, he wanted to get executed as the messiah. So he had to be fairly careful what he said.

    ---------- Post added at 03:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 AM ----------

    41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

    44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

    45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

    46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

    Of course when it says left, it would be more appropriate it he had those groups the other way round!

    So, we have a lot of rich Christians in America, and a lot of starving people. Is this acceptable then? Its ok to just ignore Jesus?

    ---------- Post added at 04:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 AM ----------

    Apokalupsis, I am not really interested in the Old Testament. The thread is about Jesus.

    ---------- Post added at 04:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:00 AM ----------

    James 2

    Favoritism Forbidden

    1My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
    5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...02&version=NIV

    ---------- Post added at 04:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 AM ----------

    I notice that Jesus did a lot of wandering around, healing the sick. I don't seem to nice him charging for doing so though.

    So if you applied that to modern day America, you would not have the current system of private healthcare, with millions of poor people excluded, would you?

    Private healthcare = antichristian.
    Last edited by manc; September 8th, 2010 at 07:27 AM.

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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Christian Socialists
    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/REsocialism.htm

    "Christian Socialists also dominated the leadership of the Independent Labour Party formed in 1893. This included James Keir Hardie, Philip Snowden, Ben Tillett, Tom Mann, Katharine Glasier, Margaret McMillan and Rachel McMillan. "

    wiki
    "James Keir Hardie, Sr. (15 August 1856 Ė 26 September 1915), best known as "Keir," was a Scottish socialist and labour leader, and was the first Independent Labour Member of Parliament elected to the Parliament of the United Kingdom. Hardie is regarded as one of the primary founders of the Independent Labour Party as well as the Labour Party of which it later was a part."

    Labour Party clause 4


    "To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service."

    ---------- Post added at 06:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:19 AM ----------

    Frederick Denison Maurice
    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/REmaurice.htm

    wrote the Kingdom of Christ in 1838, you can still get it on Amazon.

    Influential in the socialist Christian movement.

    author of the following books
    Eustace Conway, or the Brother and Sister, a novel (1834)
    The Kingdom of Christ (1838)
    Christmas Day and Other Sermons (1843)
    The Unity of the New Testament (1844)
    The Epistle to the Hebrews (1846)
    The Religions of the World (1847)
    Moral and Metaphysical Philosophy (at first an article in the Encyclopaedia Metropolitana, 1848)
    The Church a Family (1850)
    The Old Testament (1851)
    Theological Essays (1853)
    The Prophets and Kings of the Old Testament (1853)
    Lectures on Ecclesiastical History (1854)
    The Doctrine of Sacrifice (1854)
    The Patriarchs and Lawgivers of the Old Testament (1855)
    The Epistles of St John (1857)
    The Commandments as Instruments of National Reformation (1866)
    On the Gospel of St Luke (1868)
    The Conscience: Lectures on Casuistry (1868)
    The Lord's Prayer, a Manual (1870).

    "Frederick Denison Maurice was acknowledged as the leader of the group and his book The Kingdom of Christ (1838) became the theological basis of Christian Socialism. In the book Maurice argued that politics and religion are inseparable and that the church should be involved in addressing social questions. Maurice rejected individualism, with its competition and selfishness, and suggested a socialist alternative to the economic principles of laissez faire. Christian Socialists promoted the cooperative ideas of Robert Owen and suggested profit sharing as a way of improving the status of the working classes and as a means of producing a just, Christian society. "
    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/REsocialism.htm

    ---------- Post added at 06:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 AM ----------

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Weitling

    ---------- Post added at 06:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 AM ----------

    There is an important point I hope I made. It would have been impossible for Jesus to be a communist. Communism was not possible until round about Marx's era. I am saying that there are similarities.

  12. #32
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Before I respond in depth...

    Your closing statement refutes your opening post and argument. You now seem to be changing your position to that of EVERYONE else in the thread. That Jesus....while having some similarities, was not a communist.

    Is this your new position? I say new, because it is contradictory to your thread's title and supporting argumentation for it.

    Secondly...Jesus had similarities with several groups. This doesn't mean he advocated any particular political system. It merely means some of the values He had, can also be seen in other belief systems. Jesus for example believed in the after life. Islam teaches there is an afterlife. Using your previous argumentation, Jesus therefore, must be Muslim. Obviously, it's absurd and void of any logic.

    Another theme of your argumentation is that people aren't doing Christ's work by helping others in need. That only the state can do Christ's work. For example, in the US, a capitalist economy, churches, private organizations, and individuals help the needy through food programs, work programs, providing shelter and food for the homeless, helping those who cannot afford medical expenses incurred, etc... According to you, because this was voluntary and not from the state, this is un-Christlike. Your entire argument ignores individual calling and the calling of the church and the Christian community, and pretends instead, that the calling is for individuals to submit to the state. I've brought this up before...but I don't see you responding to it.

    So, please support your position that it is un-Christlike to voluntarily help the needy and poor as individuals, through private groups and through churches and instead, the only way Christ wanted people to be helped was through forced collection of goods to be distributed amongst all.

    Then perhaps you can give us what you think Jesus meant when He said "Render unto Caesar's what is his." Matt 22:21

    Also, (and perhaps I just missed it), you continue to dodge the problem that if God won't let ANYONE in who has money and that only poverty stricken people who have no capital whatsoever can be saved (an absurd claim and qualification mind you), then why so many wealthy people are righteous before God and were saved? If you have answered this, please direct me to where. I must have missed it.

    Lastly, it would appear that you ignored or missed the closing portion of the argument (see post #27).
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    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  13. #33
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Before I respond in depth...

    Your closing statement refutes your opening post and argument. You now seem to be changing your position to that of EVERYONE else in the thread. That Jesus....while having some similarities, was not a communist.

    Is this your new position? I say new, because it is contradictory to your thread's title and supporting argumentation for it.
    Post 1.
    Jesus said a few things didn't he, that sound a bit socialist.

    And in the end bit, after he had been crucified I think, it says the disciples sold all their possessions and gave to everyone according to his need.

    Which a bit like what Marx said!
    Note how I used the words. Incidentally there is a bit right in the OP where i say after he had been crucified, the disciples sold their possessions. I did say I think, partly cos I like to double check everything, partly cos I just didn't want to sound too know-all.

    However I obviously checked that when I was extracting the chunk to paste.

    Post 6
    Obsession over material wealth is a barrier to spiritual wealth, that was his message.
    Well Jesus couldn't be a communist in the exact same sense as we use the word today. Even today many people don't really understand the concept properly. Communism as defined by Marx would not have been possible in Jesus' time. However Jesus clearly sympathised with the poor and against the rich, and many times spoke against the desire to accumulate wealth.


    ---------- Post added at 08:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post

    Secondly...Jesus had similarities with several groups. This doesn't mean he advocated any particular political system. It merely means some of the values He had, can also be seen in other belief systems. Jesus for example believed in the after life. Islam teaches there is an afterlife. Using your previous argumentation, Jesus therefore, must be Muslim. Obviously, it's absurd and void of any logic.
    Explain how the fact that 1% of America has more wealth than the whole of the bottom 90% put together fits in with the message of Jesus. America claims to be a Christian country.

    America gives a pathetic 0.2% of its DGP in official development aid. A drop in the ocean compared to what it spends on weapons. Explain how that is in line with Jesus' teachings.

    Its ABC socialism that communism couldn't have been possible in Jesus' time, Russia was too backward for it, I doubt he would have thought of the concept in that way. Though, being the son of god, anything's possible.

    Have a quote from Engels

    Was not the abolition of private property possible at an earlier time?

    No.

    The Principles of Communism
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...1/prin-com.htm

  14. #34
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    Post 1.

    Note how I used the words. Incidentally there is a bit right in the OP where i say after he had been crucified, the disciples sold their possessions. I did say I think, partly cos I like to double check everything, partly cos I just didn't want to sound too know-all.

    However I obviously checked that when I was extracting the chunk to paste.

    Post 6
    and
    Obsession over material wealth is a barrier to spiritual wealth, that was his message.
    I agree w/ the last quote completely. But you are arguing for much more. Furthermore, would you agree that the title of your argument (thread), is completely inaccurate? You say categorically that Jesus is a communist. Then you argue that He really isn't a communist, communism just shares some of His views.

    These are completely 2 different positions. My focus is on your claim then lack of support. The claim is "Jesus was a communist". The argumentation that follows is its support. The argumentation does not support the claim (or title).

    So, if it is merely your contention that communism holds some similar views that Jesus had, then there isn't much to discuss. Yes, Jesus certainly did. However, He also had views that can be found in many belief systems. Him having those beliefs doesn't make him a subscriber to that belief system, it just means there is at least some similarities.

    Explain how the fact that 1% of America has more wealth than the whole of the bottom 90% put together fits in with the message of Jesus. America claims to be a Christian country.
    Easy. The amount of money one has in one's back account is not a qualification of the belief system.

    America gives a pathetic 0.2% of its DGP in official development aid. A drop in the ocean compared to what it spends on weapons. Explain how that is in line with Jesus' teachings.
    Irrelevant to the issue of whether or not Jesus is a communist as well as if Christians are following Jesus' word. The USA is not a theocracy.

    Lastly, you have ignored these challenges repeatedly. I suspect that it is because you realize that there isn't much room for your position to stand on.

    For your convenience and making it official:

    Challenge to support a claim.
    1) Jesus had similarities with several groups. This doesn't mean he advocated any particular political system. It merely means some of the values He had, can also be seen in other belief systems. Jesus for example believed in the after life. Islam teaches there is an afterlife. Using your previous argumentation, Jesus therefore, must be Muslim. Obviously, it's absurd and void of any logic.

    Challenge to support a claim.
    2) Another theme of your argumentation is that people aren't doing Christ's work by helping others in need. That only the state can do Christ's work. For example, in the US, a capitalist economy, churches, private organizations, and individuals help the needy through food programs, work programs, providing shelter and food for the homeless, helping those who cannot afford medical expenses incurred, etc... According to you, because this was voluntary and not from the state, this is un-Christlike. Your entire argument ignores individual calling and the calling of the church and the Christian community, and pretends instead, that the calling is for individuals to submit to the state. I've brought this up before...but I don't see you responding to it.

    So, please support your position that it is un-Christlike to voluntarily help the needy and poor as individuals, through private groups and through churches and instead, the only way Christ wanted people to be helped was through forced collection of goods to be distributed amongst all.

    Challenge to support a claim.
    Then perhaps you can give us what you think Jesus meant when He said "Render unto Caesar's what is his." Matt 22:21 This was brought up before and ignored.

    Challenge to support a claim.
    Also, (and perhaps I just missed it), you continue to dodge the problem that if God won't let ANYONE in who has money and that only poverty stricken people who have no capital whatsoever can be saved (an absurd claim and qualification mind you), then why so many wealthy people are righteous before God and were saved? If you have answered this, please direct me to where. I must have missed it.

    Also, a reminder to address post #27.

    Your response to my argumentation is like a turkey-shoot. It's all over the place, very chaotic. It's important to address key arguments and points in a debate in order to further a position. You have consistently ignored such points for some reason. So we have to offer an official challenge to either have you address them so your position can move forward or to stop the poor argumentation (by way of ignoring your opponent's arguments and repeating the same refuted claim over and over).
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    and

    I agree w/ the last quote completely. But you are arguing for much more. Furthermore, would you agree that the title of your argument (thread), is completely inaccurate?
    As is clear, I qualified the title in the opening post, and further in post 6. I would have to be mental to say he was literally a communist in the modern sense, because communism wasn't possible then, hadn't been invented, and even now most people don't understand the word.

    It would be a long and boring title if I called the thread something like 'Jesus was a bit like a communist, only not exactly, because communism wasn't possible in the sense we understand it today (those of us who do know what it means) and hadn't been invented, but he said a lot of things which sound very socialist mined in spirit, and Christians seem to ignore these teachings, at their peril, from what I've read in the Bible'. '

    ---------- Post added at 10:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    As is clear, I qualified the title in the opening post, and further in post 6. I would have to be mental to say he was literally a communist in the modern sense, because communism wasn't possible then, hadn't been invented, and even now most people don't understand the word.

    It would be a long and boring title if I called the thread something like 'Jesus was a bit like a communist, only not exactly, because communism wasn't possible in the sense we understand it today (those of us who do know what it means) and hadn't been invented, but he said a lot of things which sound very socialist mined in spirit, and Christians seem to ignore these teachings, at their peril, from what I've read in the Bible'. '
    The title of a thread is linked to the OP. It is the OP which explains the title. A title is just a title.

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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Good. That's one issue down that we agree on: Jesus was not a communist.

    However, said title has as much value as saying "Jesus was a capitalist" and "Jesus was a Muslim" and "Jesus was a cow" since Jesus has some similarities with all 3. All 4 as claims are incorrect.
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  17. #37
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Good. That's one issue down that we agree on: Jesus was not a communist.

    However, said title has as much meaning as saying "Jesus was a capitalist" and "Jesus was a Muslim" and "Jesus was a cow" since Jesus has some similarities with all 3.
    Not in the slightest. I have supplied numerous crucial passages which are as socialist as you could imagine for his time, 2000 years ago. He constantly stuck up for the poor and gave dire warnings to the rich, telling them to give up their wealth.

    I'm sorry to have to destroy your whole way of thinking, don't blame me, I'm only the messenger. All I have done is quoted Jesus. His word speak for themselves. If you choose to ignore them, thats up to you.

    The Parable of the Good Samaritan

    25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
    26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

    27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"

    28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

    29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

    30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

    36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

    37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
    Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."


    ---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post

    So, if it is merely your contention that communism holds some similar views that Jesus had, then there isn't much to discuss. Yes, Jesus certainly did. However, He also had views that can be found in many belief systems. Him having those beliefs doesn't make him a subscriber to that belief system, it just means there is at least some similarities.
    No, my contention is more than just communism holds some similar views, my contention is that Jesus said all the things I have posted, which are highly radical, more radical even than communism, and nobody takes a blind bit of notice. How can this be? Because a few 'scholars' have assured them that 'Jesus never actually mean most of what he said'?

    I find it quite incredible that anyone can claim to be a Christian and be on the political right of the spectrum.

    I find it incredible that people go round quoting the bible, if its actually impossible for a mere mortal to understand.

    Why didn't Jesus say what he meant? Was HE stupid, like me?

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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    Not in the slightest. I have supplied numerous crucial passages which are as socialist as you could imagine for his time, 2000 years ago. He constantly stuck up for the poor and gave dire warnings to the rich, telling them to give up their wealth.
    And? Jesus believed in a higher power...therefore, according to your logic, he's a Muslim. He said to give what is Caesar to Caesar (the state), talks about how it is a good thing to work and that it will yield a profit, etc... therefore He must be a capitalist. He also is a mammal, has legs, a heart and a head. Therefore, he's a cow according to your logic.

    You've failed to come a valid conclusion by using relevant similarities.

    I'm sorry to have to destroy your whole way of thinking, don't blame me, I'm only the messenger. All I have done is quoted Jesus. His word speak for themselves. If you choose to ignore them, thats up to you.
    Thank you for the kind, yet misguided words. These words may carry a bit of weight if only arguments and challenges were addressed instead of repeating the same refuted arguments over and over again, pretending there is no refutation, then proclaiming yourself victor.

    No, my contention is more than just communism holds some similar views, my contention is that Jesus said all the things I have posted, which are highly radical, more radical even than communism, and nobody takes a blind bit of notice.
    Because people tend to rely on experts instead of those who think ignorance trumps education is all.

    How can this be? Because a few 'scholars' have assured them that 'Jesus never actually mean most of what he said'?
    No. The employment of logic and expert analysis (favored over ignorance of course).

    I find it quite incredible that anyone can claim to be a Christian and be on the political right of the spectrum.
    That's because you don't understand what you are reading apparently.

    I find it incredible that people go round quoting the bible, if its actually impossible for a mere mortal to understand.
    It isn't, obviously. There's just a problem with those who insist that ignorance is to be valued, experts are to be ignored, and eisegesis is proper methodology.

    Why didn't Jesus say what he meant? Was HE stupid, like me?
    He did say what He meant. You just for some reason, appear to be the ONLY person not getting it. I can't explain it, not better than has already been explained. I think perhaps that some of it has to do with ego. I think this is evident by the complete failure to address the challenges which if carried out, exposes the contradictions and flaws in your argument. I think that perhaps you realize this, and this is why you choose to ignore it and instead regurgitate the same refuted claim. Just a theory, but you seem to be wanting to know.
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post




    Explain how the fact that 1% of America has more wealth than the whole of the bottom 90% put together fits in with the message of Jesus. America claims to be a Christian country.
    Easy. The amount of money one has in one's back account is not a qualification of the belief system.

    Whats that supposed to mean? Jesus told the rich to give up their wealth, he told everyone to help the needy.

  20. #40
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    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    Whats that supposed to mean? Jesus told the rich to give up their wealth, he told everyone to help the needy.
    I've argued what this means thoroughly. I've provided examples. I've challenged you with said examples. I've challenged you to support specific points.

    You have refused to do so on all accounts.

    ---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 PM ----------

    Let's try another approach...

    manc...what is the dollar amount, in today's value, that God will allow for one to be saved? That is, what is the maximum amount one can have (back then and today)? Please cite the verse.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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