Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 62
  1. #41
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    741
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    Whats that supposed to mean? Jesus told the rich to give up their wealth, he told everyone to help the needy.
    Manc, how does this particularly relate to socialism, insofar as socialism believes "equality", "public ownership of property" and "helping the (poor) working class" should be initiatives taken NOT BY INDIVIDUALS as citizens, but by the state through force. In contrast, when Jesus taught that individuals must give up their property, sell their possessions and help the needy, these were moral obligations not through the force of the state, but in relation to one's own capacity as a citizen (and a brethren) to his neighbours in society. Private Christian charities exist and I don't see why they should be disregarded in the context of this debate.

    Moreover, Jesus did not obligate what the duties and functions were of a government. In fact, as already mentioned, Jesus clearly separates the duty of individuals to "give to [the State] what is [the State's], and to God what is God's." (Matthew 22:21) I'm unsure what you're suggesting though. Should Christian believers in power necessarily incorporate every Christian teaching via the federal state? If so, then you're essentially arguing for a theocracy, which is completely incompatible with Marx's teachings. It also doesn't fit with Jesus' teachings. Jesus never obligated individuals to take political power and fulfill his teachings through policy; we are to fulfill his teachings through our capacity as private citizens.

    Furthermore, are you suggesting that because Jesus held beliefs similar to those of socialism, then a true Christian should lean toward socialism as well? Why should anyone's faith inevitably decide their political philosophy though? Moreover, if you're arguing that Christians ought to lean closer to socialism, then since Christianity came before socialism why aren't all socialists more Christ-like? In any case, just because Jesus held beliefs similar to socialism does not mean Christians should necessarily be socialists (and vice-versa) or draw from socialist beliefs, since we've already established that Jesus separated ones duty to the state (public), with one's duty to God (private). Church and state should remain separate and neither one should dictate the role of the other. A leader's religious faith shouldn't dictate his/her policy, and the leader's policy shouldn't dictate his/her religious faith.
    Last edited by KingOfTheEast; September 8th, 2010 at 01:27 PM.
    "Those who would give up ESSENTIAL LIBERTY to purchase a little TEMPORARY SAFETY deserve neither LIBERTY nor SAFETY."--Pennsylvania Assembly

  2. #42
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,042
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Another theme of your argumentation is that people aren't doing Christ's work by helping others in need. That only the state can do Christ's work. For example, in the US, a capitalist economy, churches, private organizations, and individuals help the needy through food programs, work programs, providing shelter and food for the homeless, helping those who cannot afford medical expenses incurred, etc... According to you, because this was voluntary and not from the state, this is un-Christlike. Your entire argument ignores individual calling and the calling of the church and the Christian community, and pretends instead, that the calling is for individuals to submit to the state. I've brought this up before...but I don't see you responding to it.

    So, please support your position that it is un-Christlike to voluntarily help the needy and poor as individuals, through private groups and through churches and instead, the only way Christ wanted people to be helped was through forced collection of goods to be distributed amongst all.
    There are some people who dedicate their lives to helping others. This is commendable and of course would be in line with what Jesus was saying. I'm not gonna go into the aspect of someone who did that but did not believe in God.

    So what about America as a whole? They have vast amounts of wealth. Instead of helping poor countries, America stamps down on them, on the whole. America gets much of its wealth from poor countries, and then gives a tiny bit back.

    What about all the wealthy Christians? They might give a few dollars to charity each month. Big deal, you think that's enough?

    What does a Christian capitalist do? he makes 100 dollars profit from exploiting the labour of his employees, and then maybe sends 5 dollars to charity.

    Socialism argues for a wholesale redistribution from the rich to the poor. It is a free choice for mankind. Socialism argues what Jesus said, those who have should give to those who have not. Charity clearly isn't enough. What America does is give a dollar with one hand, and take back ten with the other. Millions go hungry and this could be solved immediately, America is like a rich man walking past a starving child, barely even noticing. That is not what Jesus taught.

    Jesus taught charity because socialism was not possible in his day. Today we don't need charity, which is effectively little more than a token gesture, we need, and can have, a new system completely, where the whole of humanity works in cooperation with each other. I think Jesus would be on the side of communism rather than capitalism.

    ---------- Post added at 10:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post

    Then perhaps you can give us what you think Jesus meant when He said "Render unto Caesar's what is his." Matt 22:21
    I already answered this in post 6.

    ---------- Post added at 10:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Also, (and perhaps I just missed it), you continue to dodge the problem that if God won't let ANYONE in who has money and that only poverty stricken people who have no capital whatsoever can be saved (an absurd claim and qualification mind you), then why so many wealthy people are righteous before God and were saved? If you have answered this, please direct me to where. I must have missed it.
    I dont know what you mean by wealthy people saved. You mean in the old testament?

    As for taking the beatitudes literally, well all I have done is quoted them, and said that Jesus would at least want the spirit of that put into practice. Presumably he is not saying poverty is a virtue in itself.

    The difference in socialism is that nobody would be rich, they wouldn't need to be poor.

    The main thing, as Jesus said, is the commandment to treat your fellow man as you would want to be treated, and to feed and clothe those who do not have things. Equality, and sharing. Socialism.

    ---------- Post added at 10:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Lastly, it would appear that you ignored or missed the closing portion of the argument (see post #27).

    Lukecash12 said in this post:
    You have been challenged to support the claim that we are twisting His words, and you have not replied to it. I think I am speaking for all other Theists who have been following this debate in saying that if you don't address those challenges directly and with actual evidence or an experts support for the scripture being interpreted otherwise, you are giving us your concession.
    He's been officially challenged to do so. As such, either he must stop making the unfounded claims, or actually support them. So either way, such practice comes to a halt immediately as a result of the challenge(s)

    Well I think the answer to that is covered by the entirety of the tread, I'm not about the repeat everything.

    I think I have put my case well, and you people disagreeing wealth me have failed to make a case against what I have said.

    Basically I am quoting about a dozen key speeches made by Jesus, and you are arguing that he didn't really mean any of it.

    Ok, lets just take one example.

    woe to the rich, camel and needle etc.


    You say

    Who are rich. In this world's goods. They loved them; they had sought for them; they found their consolation in them. It implies, farther, that they would not seek or receive consolation from the gospel. They were proud, and would not seek it; satisfied, and did not desire it; filled with cares, and had no time or disposition to attend to it. All the consolation which they had reason to expect they had received. Alas! how poor and worthless is such consolation, compared with that which the gospel would give!
    So, we have suddenly gone from

    But woe to you who are rich,
    for you have already received your comfort.
    25Woe to you who are well fed now,
    for you will go hungry.

    to well actually he didnt mean rich, he meant people who do not look for consolation from the gospel,

    Of course there is a grain of truth in it, like many distortions, but its twisting it to say that the 'rich' bit is almost irrelevant.

    I challenge you to 'interpret' the camel and the needle.

    ---------- Post added at 10:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post


    America gives a pathetic 0.2% of its DGP in official development aid. A drop in the ocean compared to what it spends on weapons. Explain how that is in line with Jesus' teachings.
    Irrelevant to the issue of whether or not Jesus is a communist as well as if Christians are following Jesus' word. The USA is not a theocracy.
    Well no but America is not a secular state, the Presidents all seem to claim God on their side, or to believe in him, and more than half the population are Christian believers. Naerly half the population believe in creationism!

  3. #43
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    There are some people who dedicate their lives to helping others. This is commendable and of course would be in line with what Jesus was saying.
    So it is ok to freely give to people...and not to the state? How much should one give? Their entire lives or a portion...say 10%? 50%? More?

    So what about America as a whole? They have vast amounts of wealth. Instead of helping poor countries, America stamps down on them, on the whole. America gets much of its wealth from poor countries, and then gives a tiny bit back.
    1) How is it possible...to get "much of its wealth" from countries who don't have money in the first place?

    2) America as a while is irrelevant. It isn't a Christian nation in the sense that it as a nation accepts God as the one true God...but rather that most of its population identify with the Christian beliefs and ideals.

    What about all the wealthy Christians? They might give a few dollars to charity each month. Big deal, you think that's enough?
    Challenge to support a claim. Support it.

    Support that all wealthy Christians give a few dollars to charity each month. I personally know and have worked for wealthy Christians who give 10-40% of their income consistently, donate vehicles homes, wardrobes, give thousands upon thousands to the needy. Quit making outlandish, unsupported claims.

    What does a Christian capitalist do? he makes 100 dollars profit from exploiting the labour of his employees, and then maybe sends 5 dollars to charity.
    Challenge to support a claim. Support it.
    1) That Christians exploit their employees instead of paying them for their productivity.
    2) That Christians give $5 to charity.

    Socialism argues for a wholesale redistribution from the rich to the poor.
    Something Jesus never advocated.

    It is a free choice for mankind.
    No it isn't. You don't have a choice under socialism. You pay into the system through mandate.

    What America does is give a dollar with one hand, and take back ten with the other.
    Challenge to support a claim. Support it.

    Millions go hungry and this could be solved immediately, America is like a rich man walking past a starving child, barely even noticing. That is not what Jesus taught.
    Jesus taught there will always be poor. Jesus was a realist. And how is FORCING Americans to pay into a socialist system for their country going to feed millions of starving people?

    I think Jesus would be on the side of communism rather than capitalism.
    Thinking it isn't the same as it being true.

    I already answered this in post 6.
    Yes...this is what you said:
    Clearly Jesus was not saying 'lets have a revolution now' like some of the Jewish leaders were, but every revolutionary has to weigh up the chances of success and the timing has to be right. Jesus might not have been a socialist as we understand the word, but he was a communist in a way that suited the time he lived in.
    How does that address anything we've discussed? You aren't saying what it is, but rather what it is not. Jesus acknowledges the separation of giving to the state and giving as individuals.

    I dont know what you mean by wealthy people saved. You mean in the old testament?
    Old and New. Your father is a pastor...or was....surely you knew that there are many named people who are wealthy in both the OT and NT who were saved. It isn't about how much money you have...it's about putting God first. God doesn't show favoritism (Rom 2:11). To save only a particular group of people based on race, gender, age, wealth, education, etc... is to show favoritism.

    The main thing, as Jesus said, is the commandment to treat your fellow man as you would want to be treated, and to feed and clothe those who do not have things. Equality, and sharing. Socialism.
    Jesus spoke of voluntarily given...that it must be from the heart. Forced love is not love...it is rape. You are advocating the rape of hard work (of which God says the fruits are success and profit) and income. You are forcing people to do that which Jesus said is to be given only freely.

    What is the dollar amount, in today's value, that God will allow for one to be saved? That is, what is the maximum amount one can have (back then and today)? Please cite the verse.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  4. #44
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,042
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post

    Your response to my argumentation is like a turkey-shoot. It's all over the place, very chaotic. It's important to address key arguments and points in a debate in order to further a position. You have consistently ignored such points for some reason. So we have to offer an official challenge to either have you address them so your position can move forward or to stop the poor argumentation (by way of ignoring your opponent's arguments and repeating the same refuted claim over and over).
    As far as I am aware I have answered everything. Its you who is refusing, point blank, to answer questions, and asking me things I have already answered. Anyway, I think you are accusing me of not answering stuff before I have had a chance to.

    ---------- Post added at 11:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    For your convenience and making it official:

    Challenge to support a claim.
    1) Jesus had similarities with several groups. This doesn't mean he advocated any particular political system. It merely means some of the values He had, can also be seen in other belief systems. Jesus for example believed in the after life. Islam teaches there is an afterlife. Using your previous argumentation, Jesus therefore, must be Muslim. Obviously, it's absurd and void of any logic.

    Challenge to support a claim.
    2) Another theme of your argumentation is that people aren't doing Christ's work by helping others in need. That only the state can do Christ's work. For example, in the US, a capitalist economy, churches, private organizations, and individuals help the needy through food programs, work programs, providing shelter and food for the homeless, helping those who cannot afford medical expenses incurred, etc... According to you, because this was voluntary and not from the state, this is un-Christlike. Your entire argument ignores individual calling and the calling of the church and the Christian community, and pretends instead, that the calling is for individuals to submit to the state. I've brought this up before...but I don't see you responding to it.

    So, please support your position that it is un-Christlike to voluntarily help the needy and poor as individuals, through private groups and through churches and instead, the only way Christ wanted people to be helped was through forced collection of goods to be distributed amongst all.

    Challenge to support a claim.
    Then perhaps you can give us what you think Jesus meant when He said "Render unto Caesar's what is his." Matt 22:21 This was brought up before and ignored.

    Challenge to support a claim.
    Also, (and perhaps I just missed it), you continue to dodge the problem that if God won't let ANYONE in who has money and that only poverty stricken people who have no capital whatsoever can be saved (an absurd claim and qualification mind you), then why so many wealthy people are righteous before God and were saved? If you have answered this, please direct me to where. I must have missed it.
    I think I have answered all these.

  5. #45
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    I don't expect you to know the names of the wealthy in the Bible. If you did know, you'd have posted them by now.

    Here are a few:

    Solomon: God Himself gave Solomon his riches, he was the wealthiest person in history at that time. Not just a handful of gold, not a nice little pad in an oasis...he was the Bill Gates of time. Solomon didn't ask for it. God gave it to him freely. If money is evil, why did God give so much wealth to him?

    David: Also lavished with extreme wealth. I'll assume you know this story.

    Joseph of Arimathea, a disciple of Jesus was very wealthy.

    If wealth is evil and ungodly...then why does God disagree with you? Perhaps you mean to speak for a different god?

    Proverbs 10:22 says, "The blessing of the Lord brings wealth, without painful toil for it."

    Also,

    "All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty" (14:23).

    God says that a good man leaves an inheritance to his family:
    "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children" (Prov 13:22).
    How many poor people leave a noticeable inheritance to their family manc?

    The Bible tells us that it is through noble qualities that wealth is obtained (hard work, diligence, sacrifice) and that failure to do those things will result in poverty. That's not to say that all those who are poor or in poverty are sluggards or refuse to work, but it does tell us that those kinds of characteristics and flaws will most often lead to poverty.

    In Luke 19 we read where Jesus tells a parable about three servants who were given charge over some money. In the story, Jesus says that two of the servants wisely invested the money while the third buried it in the ground. In His story, the one who simply buried it in the ground was called "lazy and wicked."
    http://www.gracecentered.com/what_the_Bible_says_about_money.htm

    The Bible attributes wealth to hard work, wisdom, personal sacrifice, patience, perseverance, self control and wisdom. Not only that, but the Bible says that "the blessing of the Lord brings wealth (Proverbs 10:22)."

    The only way you can stand by your claim manc, is if you are inconsistent (or cherry-picking to suit your eisegesis).
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  6. #46
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,042
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast View Post
    Manc, how does this particularly relate to socialism, insofar as socialism believes "equality", "public ownership of property" and "helping the (poor) working class" should be initiatives taken NOT BY INDIVIDUALS as citizens, but by the state through force. In contrast, when Jesus taught that individuals must give up their property, sell their possessions and help the needy, these were moral obligations not through the force of the state, but in relation to one's own capacity as a citizen (and a brethren) to his neighbours in society. Private Christian charities exist and I don't see why they should be disregarded in the context of this debate.

    Moreover, Jesus did not obligate what the duties and functions were of a government. In fact, as already mentioned, Jesus clearly separates the duty of individuals to "give to [the State] what is [the State's], and to God what is God's." (Matthew 22:21) I'm unsure what you're suggesting though. Should Christian believers in power necessarily incorporate every Christian teaching via the federal state? If so, then you're essentially arguing for a theocracy, which is completely incompatible with Marx's teachings. It also doesn't fit with Jesus' teachings. Jesus never obligated individuals to take political power and fulfill his teachings through policy; we are to fulfill his teachings through our capacity as private citizens.

    Furthermore, are you suggesting that because Jesus held beliefs similar to those of socialism, then a true Christian should lean toward socialism as well? Why should anyone's faith inevitably decide their political philosophy though? Moreover, if you're arguing that Christians ought to lean closer to socialism, then since Christianity came before socialism why aren't all socialists more Christ-like? In any case, just because Jesus held beliefs similar to socialism does not mean Christians should necessarily be socialists (and vice-versa) or draw from socialist beliefs, since we've already established that Jesus separated ones duty to the state (public), with one's duty to God (private). Church and state should remain separate and neither one should dictate the role of the other. A leader's religious faith shouldn't dictate his/her policy, and the leader's policy shouldn't dictate his/her religious faith.
    No I don't want a theocracy, I want a secular world. Religion should be a private matter. But in America it is not. Christians try to impose their views on the nation. Well if they are gonna do that, lets see them put their money where their mouth is. Literally.


    ps. I have already answered the bit about giving to Caesar what is his. The Pharisees were trying to trap him, and he was not playing their game, thats all:

    “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites?" same link, Matthew 22.

    Jerusalem was rife with revolution. Jesus did not want go go down as just another one of the ordinary revolutionaries, he wanted to be executed as the messiah.

  7. #47
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    I think I have answered all these.
    No. Where have you answered #1 and #4? Also see post #43 & #45.

    ---------- Post added at 01:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    No I don't want a theocracy, I want a secular world. Religion should be a private matter. But in America it is not. Christians try to impose their views on the nation. Well if they are gonna do that, lets see them put their money where their mouth is. Literally.
    rofl...you mean impose by way of a democratic process? Letting the people decide? Yeah, horrible plan. Freedom of expression and representation will never work, completely over-rated.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  8. #48
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    741
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    No I don't want a theocracy, I want a secular world.
    Then why suggest that because some of Jesus' views are similar to socialism, therefore Christians ought to implement their Christian beliefs in policy? Isn't that contrary to a secularism?

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    Religion should be a private matter. But in America it is not. Christians try to impose their views on the nation. Well if they are gonna do that, lets see them put their money where their mouth is. Literally.
    Elaborate. How do Christians impose their views on the nation?

    Furthermore, how should they "put their money where their mouth is...literally"? Should they implement socialism in the United States? What if most of them aren't socialist? Are they, therefore, not "true" Christians simply because they don't follow a political philosophy that you believe they should follow?

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    ps. I have already answered the bit about giving to Caesar what is his. The Pharisees were trying to trap him, and he was not playing their game, thats all:
    But was his answer truthful or not? If not, why couldn't his answer be truthful simply because he was being put to the test? Are you suggesting that because the pharisees were testing him, he couldn't preach his true teachings?

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    Jerusalem was rife with revolution. Jesus did not want go go down as just another one of the ordinary revolutionaries, he wanted to be executed as the messiah.
    Very few of Jesus' teachings dealt with economics. However, you seem to be under such an impression. Socialism is primarily a political-economic system; Jesus' teachings dealt primarily with social life (issues pertaining to helping the poor (charity), forgiveness, helping and loving thy neighbour, etc.) It becomes problematic when you try to merge the two (social and economic) in relation to Jesus' teachings and then say: "X is the modern day political-economic theory that Jesus (would've) believed/supported".
    "Those who would give up ESSENTIAL LIBERTY to purchase a little TEMPORARY SAFETY deserve neither LIBERTY nor SAFETY."--Pennsylvania Assembly

  9. #49
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,042
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post

    In Luke 19 we read where Jesus tells a parable about three servants who were given charge over some money. In the story, Jesus says that two of the servants wisely invested the money while the third buried it in the ground. In His story, the one who simply buried it in the ground was called "lazy and wicked."
    http://www.gracecentered.com/what_the_Bible_says_about_money.htm

    The Bible attributes wealth to hard work, wisdom, personal sacrifice, patience, perseverance, self control and wisdom. Not only that, but the Bible says that "the blessing of the Lord brings wealth (Proverbs 10:22)."

    The only way you can stand by your claim manc, is if you are inconsistent (or cherry-picking to suit your eisegesis).
    I'm only discussing what Jesus said.

    You miss out that in the paragraph above this bit , Zacchaeus promises to give half of his money to the poor, pay back 4 times more to anyone he has cheated, so Jesus saves him.

    Now, regarding your parable. It says the boss was a hard man who takes out what he did not put in, reaps what he did not sow. He blatantly admits it. He tells his servants to kill his enemies in front of him. He is clear not the kind of bloke going to heaven.

    Is Jesus saying people should put up with the current situation, no matter how intolerable it may seem? Maybe. As I say, Jerusalem was rife with revolution, and Jesus had to be careful not to get labelled as just another revolutionary, he was to get executed for a different crime entirely.

    ---------- Post added at 06:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    So it is ok to freely give to people...and not to the state? How much should one give? Their entire lives or a portion...say 10%? 50%? More?
    I am not Jesus. I don't think I can answer for him, I can only quote him. Are you asking my opinion? We don't live in Jesus's time anymore, we don't need charity now, we need socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    1) How is it possible...to get "much of its wealth" from countries who don't have money in the first place?

    Poor countries supply the materials, and the dirt cheap labour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Challenge to support a claim. Support it.

    Support that all wealthy Christians give a few dollars to charity each month. I personally know and have worked for wealthy Christians who give 10-40% of their income consistently, donate vehicles homes, wardrobes, give thousands upon thousands to the needy. Quit making outlandish, unsupported claims.
    I do know that. But its not enough is it, millions still starve. Its the capitalist system which keeps them starving.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Challenge to support a claim.

    What does a Christian capitalist do? he makes 100 dollars profit from exploiting the labour of his employees, and then maybe sends 5 dollars to charity.
    Support it.
    1) That Christians exploit their employees instead of paying them for their productivity.
    2) That Christians give $5 to charity.

    1. Its called profit. Marx wrote the 3 volume Capital to explain it.

    2. I said maybe, you tell me how much they give. Whatever it is, its not enough. Millions are starving in a world where starvation is unnecessary.




    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Socialism argues for a wholesale redistribution from the rich to the poor.
    Something Jesus never advocated.

    Well he certainly left that impression to me, and to all the millions of Christian socialists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post


    No it isn't. You don't have a choice under socialism. You pay into the system through mandate.

    Mankind has a free choice whether to adopt a socialist system or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    What America does is give a dollar with one hand, and take back ten with the other.
    Challenge to support a claim. Support it.

    See above. Really, I cant explain the global economy here. Can I just give a random country as an example? Chile. Spanish invaded, took over the land, sold mineral rights to America, America gets all the copper dirt cheap, Chile get not much. The land gets sold to American fruit companies etc. The people get sick of the Christian Democrats and vote in Allende. Allende continues and deepens some of the CDs more progressive policies, taking the copper back into Chilean ownership etc.

    America backs a coup to overthrow Allende.





    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Jesus taught there will always be poor. Jesus was a realist. And how is FORCING Americans to pay into a socialist system for their country going to feed millions of starving people?

    He did because in those days socialism was inconceivable (although there had been egalitarian societies earlier when wealth was fairly minimal).

    If America went socialist, the rest of the world would soon follow. At the moment, food prices are pushed up by speculators on the commodity markets. That would be stopped. America destroys other economies like it did to Haiti. That would be stopped. Haiti used to feed itself before America sabotaged the farming there.

    Rich countries have power and they use that power to keep poor countries down. Loans for example, get tied to privatisation. Governments are forced to grow cash crops. These countries supply materials and labour and get little in return. the EU does it too. China is now joining the neocolonial bandwagon. America has overthrown 50 governments to keep its position in the world, and its wealth.

    Here is the charity Christian Aid:

    Kofi Eliasa used to own a tomato farm, but now he breaks stones in a quarry for a living, earning less than a dollar a day to feed his family.

    He is one of the many farmers in Ghana who have fallen victim to cheap European food imports that have flooded his country ever since the Ghanaian government was forced to open up its markets in return for loans and aid from the IMF and the World Bank.

    The problem

    It's all part of a wider global picture in which unfair trade rules designed largely by rich countries work against the interests of poor communities in developing countries.

    While international trade is worth $10 million a minute, poor countries only account for 0.4% of this trade - half the share they had in 1980.

    All this, while the world’s richest countries still have exactly the kind of support for their domestic businesses that they are forcing developing countries to drop.

    The average EU cow is subsidised to the tune of around $800. In Ethiopia, the average annual income per person is just $100.

    What we do

    So, what can we do about this situation? Here at Christian Aid, we believe that trade must be used to help bring an end to poverty – not deepen and prolong it.

    We also believe that poor countries should have the freedom to help and support their vulnerable farmers and industries.

    Therefore, we are demanding that:

    The EU stop insisting that its former colonies open up their markets through the economic partnership agreements.

    The IMF and World Bank remove all economic policy conditions attached to their loans and debt-cancellation agreements.

    World Trade Organisation agreements support development rather than promote free trade for the sake of free trade.
    Hardly a Marxist organisation.






    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Forced love is not love...it is rape.
    Ha! Ha! Quote of the week. Actually rape is not forced love, thats a 'kin weird definition.

    Anyway, i am trying to catch up, but I have other stuff to do as well.

  10. #50
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    I'm only discussing what Jesus said.
    Jesus is God. Jesus "said" the whole Bible. Christians believe the whole Bible.

    If you are conceding that God contradicts your view throughout the Bible, then a) you have admitted to cherry-picking, b) you have no ground to stand on to suggest that Christians are not following God's message.

    Argument over then.

    You miss out that in the paragraph above this bit , Zacchaeus promises to give half of his money to the poor, pay back 4 times more to anyone he has cheated, so Jesus saves him.
    He didn't give up all his money.

    You also ignore the other examples of rich people in the Bible who were deemed good by God. It may be convenient to pretend they do not exist...but it is a highly illogical position to hold, and therefore, refutes your position that only the poor can be saved.

    Now, regarding your parable. It says the boss was a hard man who takes out what he did not put in, reaps what he did not sow. He blatantly admits it. He tells his servants to kill his enemies in front of him. He is clear not the kind of bloke going to heaven.
    OK...so Jesus encourages and says that it is wise and good to do what the man has done...and the parable being used for all people as an example of what to do, but the man would not have been saved because He did what he was supposed to do, and had money.

    ??? What ???

    I am not Jesus. I don't think I can answer for him, I can only quote him. Are you asking my opinion? We don't live in Jesus's time anymore, we don't need charity now, we need socialism.
    Right...but you said that Jesus speaks clearly. And If Jesus said to give up your money in order to be saved because rich people are evil and poor people are good, then there should be an exact amt that determines how one knows one is good or bad. Are you saying that Jesus intentionally fooled people?

    Poor countries supply the materials, and the dirt cheap labour.
    An unsupported claim best served for another thread.

    I do know that.
    Then you have conceded the original point.

    1. Its called profit. Marx wrote the 3 volume Capital to explain it.
    Are Christians supposed to follow Christ...or Marx? I've provided scriptural support that profit is a good thing. Marx thinks it is a bad thing. Marxists, therefore follow Marx's teachings and philosophy, Christians follow Jesus'.

    2. I said maybe, you tell me how much they give. Whatever it is, its not enough. Millions are starving in a world where starvation is unnecessary.
    Maybe in the manner in which you use it suggests a limitation of $5, if even that much.

    I don't care how much you think is or isn't enough to give to help the needy. That is irrelevant in a thread such as this. What is relevant is the alleged requirement to involuntarily give to the state as a result of Jesus' teachings.

    But, since you cannot support the claim, it's another concession.

    Well he certainly left that impression to me, and to all the millions of Christian socialists.
    For reasons refuted above. And it is no wonder that such people are confused if they think that Jesus was not God. So I put little faith in the understandings of such "Christians".

    Mankind has a free choice whether to adopt a socialist system or not.
    It is never free when one is forced to give their income to another.

    See above. Really, I cant explain the global economy here. Can I just give a random country as an example? Chile. Spanish invaded, took over the land, sold mineral rights to America, America gets all the copper dirt cheap, Chile get not much. The land gets sold to American fruit companies etc. The people get sick of the Christian Democrats and vote in Allende. Allende continues and deepens some of the CDs more progressive policies, taking the copper back into Chilean ownership etc.

    America backs a coup to overthrow Allende.
    Thank you for giving an example. I disagree wholeheartedly though. But won't address such things in a thread about Jesus.

    He did because in those days socialism was inconceivable (although there had been egalitarian societies earlier when wealth was fairly minimal).
    Wait...so God didn't know anything about socialism, its possibilities or failures, how to implement it, etc...?

    Here is the charity Christian Aid:

    Hardly a Marxist organisation.
    You copy and paste far too much without giving its source. I won't read "allege" evidence if it isn't properly cited.

    Ha! Ha! Quote of the week. Actually rape is not forced love, thats a 'kin weird definition.
    It's a play on words in the English language. Do you think that every statement ever made is always going to be literal?
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  11. #51
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,042
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast View Post



    manc said in this post:
    No I don't want a theocracy, I want a secular world.
    Then why suggest that because some of Jesus' views are similar to socialism, therefore Christians ought to implement their Christian beliefs in policy? Isn't that contrary to a secularism?
    The OP says some of the things Jesus said sounded a bit socialist. I have provided plenty of examples. So, yeah, the implication is that voting for right wing parties seems completely contradictory to his message. Jesus stuck up for the poor and the Republicans (and even the Democrats to a large extent) stick up for the rich.


    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast View Post
    manc said in this post:
    Religion should be a private matter. But in America it is not. Christians try to impose their views on the nation. Well if they are gonna do that, lets see them put their money where their mouth is. Literally.


    Elaborate. How do Christians impose their views on the nation?
    Well, we have Bush telling us that God told him to invade Iraq and presumably oppose gay marriage and try to roll back abortion etc, he largely won his second election by an appeal to the Christian right and their 'values'. The Christians are trying to get science replaced by the bible in schools, the creationist thing. As I said, America is not a secular country. Politicians frequently play on religion to win votes and policies. The evangelical churches support the Republicans.



    WHICH ONE CANDIDATE QUALITY MATTERED MOST IN DECIDING HOW YOU VOTED FOR PRESIDENT?

    He has strong religious faith

    Kerry 8% Bush 91%

    Exit poll
    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast View Post
    Furthermore, how should they "put their money where their mouth is...literally"? Should they implement socialism in the United States? What if most of them aren't socialist? Are they, therefore, not "true" Christians simply because they don't follow a political philosophy that you believe they should follow?
    To be honest, I'm beyond caring now! The Christian right can do what they want. I don't believe in an afterlife anyway.

    My point, the point of the thread, is that I think what Jesus said is much closer to socialism than capitalism. So, yeah, I would expect Christians, if they are informed and understand the issues, should be mainly on the left. Of course a lot are, but in America a huge and influential number are far right.

    Personally I blame the bourgeois establishment for using religion as a tool, but, hey, whats new.


    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast View Post


    manc said in this post:
    ps. I have already answered the bit about giving to Caesar what is his. The Pharisees were trying to trap him, and he was not playing their game, thats all:
    But was his answer truthful or not? If not, why couldn't his answer be truthful simply because he was being put to the test? Are you suggesting that because the pharisees were testing him, he couldn't preach his true teachings?

    Maybe. His main mission was to preach allegiance to god, and he wanted to get executed for that, not for advocating refusal to pay taxes, which would have been a futile gesture. He was not lying, he was refusing to play the Pharisees' game. He just chose his words carefully. He was not there to lead tax rebellion, because it would have resulted in thousand of Jews being slaughtered. Anyway, the Roman coin was a symbol of occupation and paganism, and would have been distasteful for all Jews.

    At the time, locally produced coins did not have Caesar's portrait on the, this one did, it was a foreign coin. Taxes had to be paid in the official Roman coins.





    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast View Post
    Very few of Jesus' teachings dealt with economics. However, you seem to be under such an impression. Socialism is primarily a political-economic system; Jesus' teachings dealt primarily with social life (issues pertaining to helping the poor (charity), forgiveness, helping and loving thy neighbour, etc.) It becomes problematic when you try to merge the two (social and economic) in relation to Jesus' teachings and then say: "X is the modern day political-economic theory that Jesus (would've) believed/supported".
    I never said it was black and white. But millions of christians are socialist. I'm not on my own. Actually Marx started out as a Christian, even though he was born a Jew, his dad had to convert because of his job.

    Of course Jesus' prime message was to love god.

    His second one was to love thy neighbour. Now charity would be fine and dandy if it was enough, but clearly is is far from enough in this day and age.

    So, my challenge to right wing Christians remains. Why would Jesus be wanting you to vote for a party which takes money from the poor and gives it to the rich?

  12. #52
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    I never said it was black and white. But millions of christians are socialist.
    You do realize that this is a fallacy right?

    And using the same fallacious reasoning, one can merely respond with "There are many more Christians who are not socialist, therefore Jesus was not."

    There is a reason why it is not logical to appeal to popularity manc.

    Lastly, societal impact of X says nothing of the truth of X.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  13. #53
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,042
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    You copy and paste far too much without giving its source. I won't read "allege" evidence if it isn't properly cited.

    http://www.christianaid.org.uk/whatw...ues/trade.aspx

  14. #54
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Thank you. But it doesn't support your argument.

    It has already been explained numerous times how it's a good thing to use private organizations to help others. That is what this organization is. It isn't a government.

    Had you read the About Us page you'd have seen this.

    Christian Aid will always remain independent of governments and other powerful institutions.

    You have actually supported our position through the submission of this site as support.

    This private group is supported financially by contributions from members of churches...who give freely of their own accord what they want to give.

    They use support groups and volunteers in addition to their staff (not governments) to provide aid

    http://www.christianaid.org.uk/image...ction-2010.pdf for their hope into action plan.

    Read it. It's not about socialism...it's about helping others. There's a huge difference. It even states that one of its goals is to "foster wealth-creating economic activity to lift women and men out of poverty"

    It actually OPPOSES your position. It wants to build wealth for its people. It values prosperity. There is not a single ounce of advocation for socialism on that site. Helping people is not synonymous with socialism manc...I think this is perhaps the biggest struggle with your argument...you seem to believe it is one and the same for you make no distinction between the two whatsoever.

    This looks to be like your other source you thought would support your position but was thoroughly refuted. I won't spend the time and energy on this one like I did the last, I think the above is sufficient. Googling the net in hopes of finding something that supports your position, then posting it without understanding what it is, only hinders your argument manc, not helps it.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  15. #55
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,042
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Thank you. But it doesn't support your argument.

    It has already been explained numerous times how it's a good thing to use private organizations to help others. That is what this organization is. It isn't a government.

    Had you read the About Us page you'd have seen this.

    Christian Aid will always remain independent of governments and other powerful institutions.

    You have actually supported our position through the submission of this site as support.

    This private group is supported financially by contributions from members of churches...who give freely of their own accord what they want to give.

    They use support groups and volunteers in addition to their staff (not governments) to provide aid

    http://www.christianaid.org.uk/image...ction-2010.pdf for their hope into action plan.

    Read it. It's not about socialism...it's about helping others. There's a huge difference. It even states that one of its goals is to "foster wealth-creating economic activity to lift women and men out of poverty"

    It actually OPPOSES your position. It wants to build wealth for its people. It values prosperity. There is not a single ounce of advocation for socialism on that site. Helping people is not synonymous with socialism manc...I think this is perhaps the biggest struggle with your argument...you seem to believe it is one and the same for you make no distinction between the two whatsoever.

    This looks to be like your other source you thought would support your position but was thoroughly refuted. I won't spend the time and energy on this one like I did the last, I think the above is sufficient. Googling the net in hopes of finding something that supports your position, then posting it without understanding what it is, only hinders your argument manc, not helps it.
    And did you read the bit I pasted?




    "unfair trade rules designed largely by rich countries work against the interests of poor communities in developing countries. "


    Put your reading glasses on!

    No, its not Marxist, but it says what I was saying.

  16. #56
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    That...just doesn't make sense as a response.

    You offered the link to an advertisement of a private group in response to this:

    Apok: Jesus taught there will always be poor. Jesus was a realist. And how is FORCING Americans to pay into a socialist system for their country going to feed millions of starving people?

    Not only is this private group opposing your position of socialism, but it says nothing to the question I asked.

    Now I do recognize that most of your argumentation is quite nontraditional in that it is all over the place, without much organization. Did you mean to offer a new point and use this bit to support that point? Did you mean to support a different point you made elsewhere?
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  17. #57
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,042
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Therefore, we are demanding that:

    The EU stop insisting that its former colonies open up their markets through the economic partnership agreements.

    The IMF and World Bank remove all economic policy conditions attached to their loans and debt-cancellation agreements.

    World Trade Organisation agreements support development rather than promote free trade for the sake of free trade.


    Christian Aid


    problem is, the EU, IMF etc are never gonna listen.

    And if you want an authoritative voice, read what Joseph Stiglitz had to say in Globalisation and its Discontents. Look it up.


    here is the start

    wiki
    Globalization and Its Discontents is a book published in 2002 by the 2001 Nobel laureate Joseph E. Stiglitz.
    According to James M. Rossi, Globalization and Its Discontents is a concise, devastating, and relentless indictment of the global economic policies of the International Monetary Fund, World Trade Organization, and World Bank. . The book draws on Stiglitz's personal experience as chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under Bill Clinton from 1993 and chief economist at the World Bank from 1997.

  18. #58
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    Mankind has a free choice whether to adopt a socialist system or not.
    Bull. Maybe this sort of nebulous aggregate you want to call "mankind" (whatever that means in practical terms) has a "free choice" to adopt a socialist system, but now you're talking collectivism. Collectivism is most certainly not a part of the teachings of Jesus, who made it very clear that each individual is responsible for his own thoughts, words, and deeds. So, maybe you want to reconsider this whole "Jesus loved socialism" thing. Even if "society" decided to go to a Communist state, there would still be millions of people who didn't want to do it. Where's *their* choice? I'm not exactly rolling in money, and I don't want to be a socialist, either? Where's *my* "free choice?"

    There is no free choice once enough people get the power to force society to change the way they see fit, in their oh-so-enlightened minds. Fobbing off the idea of "choice" in the matter onto some nebulous construct of "society" only means that you're advocating the total abdication of personal responsibility, which is not what Jesus taught.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  19. #59
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,042
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    That...just doesn't make sense as a response.

    You offered the link to an advertisement of a private group in response to this:

    Apok: Jesus taught there will always be poor. Jesus was a realist. And how is FORCING Americans to pay into a socialist system for their country going to feed millions of starving people?

    Not only is this private group opposing your position of socialism, but it says nothing to the question I asked.

    Now I do recognize that most of your argumentation is quite nontraditional in that it is all over the place, without much organization. Did you mean to offer a new point and use this bit to support that point? Did you mean to support a different point you made elsewhere?
    The basic point is that the rich countries keep the poor ones poor. That is because thats how capitalism works. It's a bit beyond this thread to explain, so I was giving a similar view from a mainstream, non-socialist, Christian charity to back up my general point. So even if you don't understand it, you might trust it from that source. Its hard to explain in a nutshell, you have to read lots of specific cases to get your head around it properly. You will never read it in the right wing media.

    He was asking how America going socialist would help end world hunger. Well capitalist America is helping to keep the status quo, as described by Christian Aid. Socialist America would change all that.

    and before you point out to me that Stiglitz is not a socialist, yes I do realise that.

    If you look at any poor country, you can easily trace how half its problems have been created by rich ones.

  20. #60
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jesus was a communist

    Quote Originally Posted by manc View Post
    The basic point is that the rich countries keep the poor ones poor. That is because thats how capitalism works. It's a bit beyond this thread to explain, so I was giving a similar view from a mainstream, non-socialist, Christian charity to back up my general point. So even if you don't understand it, you might trust it from that source. Its hard to explain in a nutshell, you have to read lots of specific cases to get your head around it properly. You will never read it in the right wing media.

    He was asking how America going socialist would help end world hunger. Well capitalist America is helping to keep the status quo, as described by Christian Aid. Socialist America would change all that.

    and before you point out to me that Stiglitz is not a socialist, yes I do realise that.

    If you look at any poor country, you can easily trace how half its problems have been created by rich ones.
    I don't doubt that wealthy nations have exploited other nations. Greed happens. But it's the extent of which that matters...and it must be weighed against the good that said nation does with such wealth.

    Regardless, it is entirely outside the scope of this thread which focuses on whether or not Jesus was communist or had communist leanings.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




 

 
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Online Debate Network - Communist style
    By Snoop in forum Shootin' the Breeze / Off-Topic
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: August 13th, 2008, 10:40 PM
  2. Ask Jesus
    By DevilPup John in forum Jokes and Humor
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: December 2nd, 2007, 01:46 PM
  3. Jesus
    By DevilPup John in forum Jokes and Humor
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: October 22nd, 2007, 07:30 PM
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: October 10th, 2006, 03:41 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •