Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 64
  1. #1
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    WikiLeaks and The World

    Recently, WikiLeaks, a non-profit organization led by 39 year old Julian Assange, is both under fire from the government for its 'irresponsibility', and praised by supporters for its ability to represent honesty, and opening up some frankly embarrassing and classified secrets to the eyes of the public.

    Starting it's career with numerous different exposures and releases (view contents section), it first debuted with the now incredibly well known and notorious video Collateral Murder. Since then, the site has swelled in both numbers and activity, as one incredible release led to another - such as the Iraq and Afghanistan War Logs - and now have landed another huge catch of attention with the news of a release of over 250,000 classified US Embassy Cables.

    Pulled off with the help of some major news sources worldwide, like The Guardian, and The New York Times, the news spread quickly and efficiently, and reached every corner of the world.

    Not only is the release a shocker due to it's sheer size, but for the look behind the opinions of US ambassadors and officials worldwide.

    Government officials, such as Robert Gibbs, clamor for the silencing of Wikileaks and the arrest and prosecution of Julian Assange, under charges of espionage and violating US secrecy laws.

    "Following the latest baring of U.S. secrets on the Internet, Congress is poised to pass legislation giving employees in the most sensitive government jobs a way to report corruption, waste and mismanagement without turning to outside organizations like WikiLeaks. President Barack Obama is expected to sign the bill, which supporters say will discourage leaks of classified information. The legislation would allow intelligence whistle-blowers to raise concerns within their agencies instead of giving classified materials to WikiLeaks or other outlets, which is illegal." - Associated Press

    Officials are literally climbing over each other to sign the paper, and Josh Earnest, a crucial member of the Obama Administration, describes it as "landmark legislation."

    Honestly, the sort of legislature they try to pass under our noses is both frustratingly incompetent and sketchy. They point out that this only happened due to the fact people could not use information leaks to change situations for the better without risk of losing their social statuses and jobs, but they neglect the fact that people release this to the public because they truly believe it's the people's right to know.

    "The Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act bars workplace reprisals against employees at the CIA and other intelligence organizations for telling their superiors about illegal activities, abuses of authority and dangers to public health or safety, according to a draft of the legislation." - AP

    Sure, now that you have an option to turn in those couple thousand documents on government corruption to the government itself, what exactly the **** do you expect them to do with it?
    Nun, Volk, steh' auf, und Sturm, brich' los!

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    ..:: ( Comtesse ) ::..

  2. #2
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Where ever you tell me, Drill Sergeant!
    Posts
    2,199
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    If you have a clearance, it came with iron-clad contracts that says you will not share information that you don't have permission to share.

    People who share classified material on wikilinks are not only breaking the law (serious, serious law), they should be hung as traitors. Loose lips sink ships, and freely accessible .pdf files get soldiers and sources killed, not to mention can start wars all on their own.

    If you feel there's something wrong, or something that needs to be forwarded to be acted upon... those channels have existed for years already. This legislation is nothing more than a repeat of existing Whistleblower legislation. There are entire organizations in existence dedicated to investigating things like this already.

    I don't disagree with the legislation, any more than I'd disagree with a law that reaffirmed murder to be illegal.
    The Signature Religion is the one true religion. I know this is true, because it says so right here in this signature.

  3. #3
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
    If you have a clearance, it came with iron-clad contracts that says you will not share information that you don't have permission to share.

    People who share classified material on [wikileaks] are not only breaking the law (serious, serious law), they should be hung as traitors. Loose lips sink ships, and freely accessible .pdf files get soldiers and sources killed, not to mention can start wars all on their own.

    If you feel there's something wrong, or something that needs to be forwarded to be acted upon... those channels have existed for years already. This legislation is nothing more than a repeat of existing Whistleblower legislation. There are entire organizations in existence dedicated to investigating things like this already.
    Proof, please, other than examples sprung from World War 2 that led to the Espionage Act. And exactly how efficient are they, and is there proof they've made any progress on fixing the so called issues they're given?

    It's difficult to justify that total silence with just that word from the government. Is it right for the government to demand it, when they themselves have secrets to keep from it's own people?

    ----------------

    "Right now, anyone who tries to exercise free speech rights openly is signing his or her professional death warrant," said Tom Devine, legal director at the Government Accountability Project, a whistle-blower protection organization that has spent years gathering support for the bill.

    "That means anonymous leaks to organizations like WikiLeaks are the safest way of getting the truth out. That's not a healthy system for the nation" - AP
    Nun, Volk, steh' auf, und Sturm, brich' los!

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    ..:: ( Comtesse ) ::..

  4. #4
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Where ever you tell me, Drill Sergeant!
    Posts
    2,199
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Once again, access to that information removes your rights concerning that information. It's a legally binding contract.

    Consider me an expert source.
    The Signature Religion is the one true religion. I know this is true, because it says so right here in this signature.

  5. #5
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,475
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
    Once again, access to that information removes your rights concerning that information. It's a legally binding contract.

    Consider me an expert source.
    Not to nitpick, but we are only saying that it removes your "rights" not your "obligations" as to that info right?


    As to the OP's final question, I would expect these individuals to uphold the oaths they made when they got access to that information or at least show some common decency in what they decided to leak. It is likely if not assured that the leaks concerning Afghanistan of a couple of months ago cost Afghan and probably American lives.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  6. #6
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    What kills me is that it's not the information that jeopardized the lives of informants and other sources of aid to our troops overseas that spurred the Obama administration into action, but instead is stuff that embarrassed the Obama administration. Even now, they're basically doing a half-assed job of trying to catch this SOB.

    What they ought to do - as I've said in another thread on the nature of classified information - is hang Manning as a traitor to his country and give it a massive amount of media coverage so everyone can see the price of being a traitor to your country. They ought to hunt this Asange guy down and throw him in prison for the rest of his life for acts of war and extortion against the United States government.

    What's really sad is that nobody even seems to be worried about what the US will do... they already know that under Obama, we will basically do nothing. It takes a threat from Russia - where they *really* know what to do with traitors - before anyone starts taking this stuff seriously.

    Asange is an anarchist and a terrorist. He is seeking to impose his will upon whole nations by threatening to release damaging information to the public, intentionally endangering the lives of soldiers and the diplomatic efforts of several major nations, which could endanger many millions more. You know what? Forget throwing him in prison; that would give him too much publicity and a forum for his ideas. He would set himself up as a martyr. Instead, there should be a "shoot on sight" order for him. Send out a team of assassins and knock this guy off quietly. No publicity, no soapbox to stand on... just make him disappear. He has spent too long waging his one-man war against several major powers in the world, and that needs to come with a price. Single-handedly, this guy is making fools of us all. It's time we stopped it.

    Nobody has the right to endanger other people for the sake of their personal beliefs, especially when that person has nothing to do with those people he endangers.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  7. #7
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Pray for our troops
    Posts
    5,340
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    As to the OP's final question, I would expect these individuals to uphold the oaths they made when they got access to that information or at least show some common decency in what they decided to leak. It is likely if not assured that the leaks concerning Afghanistan of a couple of months ago cost Afghan and probably American lives.
    What is required in order to safeguard US national security -- is a presidential finding stating that Wikileaks, its founder, employees and spies, are a clear and present danger to the United States and its allies.

    Lots of things can happen with such a finding.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_finding

    Current use of the presidential finding stems from the so-called Hughes-Ryan amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act of 1974, which prohibited the expenditure of appropriated funds by or on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency for intelligence activities "unless and until the President finds that each such operation is important to the national security of the United States and reports, in a timely fashion, a description and scope of such operation to the appropriate committees of Congress" (section 662). This was intended to ensure that clear responsibility for such action was attributable to the President and that Congress was always made aware of such activities. Due to the sensitivity of their content, presidential findings are almost always classified.
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

    How can a moral wrong be a Civil Right?

  8. #8
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,157
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    For starters the pentagon declared that the first set of WikiLeaks information was not a threat to national security.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38417666..._central_asia/
    WASHINGTON, D.C. An ongoing Pentagon review of the massive flood of secret documents made public by the WikiLeaks website has so far found no evidence that the disclosure harmed U.S. national security or endangered American troops in the field, a Pentagon official told NBC News on Monday.

    Mind you it was an initial finding and I doubt very much that they would say the same about these diplomatic memos. Still, if you think the first round was dangerous to US troops, our own military disagrees with you.

    My take on all this...

    Whomever leaded the information, likely Manning from what I know, certainly is a traitor and likely deserves what he has coming. Hanging would be extreme in my opinion but he broke his oath and the law and in a pretty huge way.

    This witch hunt for Assange however I don't agree with. If anything, he represents to me an ideal of honesty and disclosure that is fundamental to my sense of ethics and to a functioning democracy. The truth deserves the light of day. The american people should know who is working with us and who is against us and what the real dangers in the world are and so forth. If our diplomats are truly spies and if our government collects dna samples and bank account numbers of other diplomats and leaders I'd like to know and I'd like to know why.

    I'm a believer in honest and open government that justifies its actions rather than hides them. I think journalists have an obligation to tell the truth of things when that truth is available to them. Assange is doing what needs to be done in many respects. The world needs to know what is true and to face that truth head on.

    What we are reading now is not the security codes for army bases or the movements of our troops or our strategic combat plans, its the dirty laundry of our diplomatic missions and of the politicians they spy on. Sure its embarrassing but it feels good to finally say what you think and call the spades spades. If Pakistan is helping of hindering us its nice to actually know rather than to speculate. If Russia is run by the maffia its good to hear about that too.

    Assange is not a terrorist he is a journalist. His aim is not to attack america it is to uncover and bring forth the hidden and expose lies. If we are ashamed of something we should not have done it in the first place.

    Frankly I find this talk of shooting people for being a dedicated journalist and telling the truth chilling and abhorrent. The reason he is making fools of us is because we are fools and you would blame him rather than ourselves for that. I think the world badly needs Assange and Wikileaks to create more honest and responsible governance in the world.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  9. #9
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,475
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Still, if you think the first round was dangerous to US troops, our own military disagrees with you.
    Dangerous to US troops and dangerous to national security are two different findings Sig. National Security is a much much higher level threat level. If a soldier is murdered during a crime that crime isn't a threat to national security, but it was very dangerous to that soldier.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sig
    The truth deserves the light of day.
    Why? The flight maps of attacking bombers during the initial invasion was truth, should it have been leaked?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  10. #10
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,157
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Why? The flight maps of attacking bombers during the initial invasion was truth, should it have been leaked?
    No, but it should be known after it happened so that future generations can learn from its success or failure.

    Besides, this is not tactical data, its political data. The whole world needs more honesty in my opinion. Too many secrets exist only to save face and avoid manning up to responsibilities. If we want our diplomats to be respected and trusted then we should not be making spies out of them.

    If you would find it outrageous that a French diplomat was collecting DNA samples of our president then you should find it outrageous that or diplomats to the same to the leaders of other nations. I'd rather come to terms with the truth of that than pretend it doesn't happen.

    These leaks don't really threaten our security, they expose our undermining of other peoples security. They make it harder for us to take dishonest advantage of other people. Perhaps we should simply stop acting in that way and work for real cooperation.

    I'm not saying there is no room for deception, but I am saying that to be outraged when your deception is exposed and to pretend that such deception is good and patriotic is against my ethical character. We get caught with our pants down and our reaction is to point the finger at the guy taking the picture rather than at ourselves.

    Wikileaks is not run by an american so he owes no allergenic to our national security and he is not acting maliciously or slanderously. Unlike ourselves he is simply being honest and forthright about who we are and what we do. If we don't like the contents of these memos, we are the first group to blame for them, both because its our action and because we let our deception get out into the public.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  11. #11
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,475
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Besides, this is not tactical data, its political data.
    What about the Afghan leaks, there was actionable tactical data in those.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  12. #12
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    These leaks don't really threaten our security, they expose our undermining of other peoples security. They make it harder for us to take dishonest advantage of other people. Perhaps we should simply stop acting in that way and work for real cooperation.
    See... this kind of thinking, while idealistic, is very dangerous. Just because we act in good faith with other people doesn't mean that they will act in good faith with us. All the Wikileaks documents do is take away our ability to act in exactly the same way as every other nation in the world is doing, without the scrutiny. It won't actually stop the foul play; it will just drive it further underground. Naively assuming that people are just going to spontaneously "play fair" if someone else is forced to is an invitation to disaster.

    What the world needs may be more openness and honesty, but until all sides can be proven to have shown it, nobody can safely assume that it's the case and must act accordingly. Anything else is just begging to be attacked or undermined. When the enemy is using every single means at their disposal, including means that the international community has strongly sanctioned, there is no recourse but to use every means at *our* disposal to deal with them, unless you want us to adopt a policy of turning our enemies of State into a sea of glass. The shadowy side of diplomacy has *always* existed. The people up in arms about the deceptions contained in the Wikileaks dumps are rank hypocrites. It's not like they're doing any different.. they just haven't been outed.

    Quote Originally Posted by sigfried
    Wikileaks is not run by an american so he owes no allergenic to our national security and he is not acting maliciously or slanderously.
    He is not American, so he is a hostile foreign national committing acts of war against this country. He should be treated as such. As far as slander, he has spun everything he could to paint the US in the worst possible light. It may be objectively true, but we don't know how much he's spinning this or how far out of context everything is. As far as hostility... I heartily disagree. He has demonstrated by his willingness to endanger US soldiers, allied informants and agents, and others that he *is* hostile to the US. Well, so be it.. if he's hostile to us, I say we get hostile right back and show him how hostile we can be. Maybe others will think twice about doing this kind of crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by sigfried
    Unlike ourselves he is simply being honest and forthright about who we are and what we do. If we don't like the contents of these memos, we are the first group to blame for them, both because its our action and because we let our deception get out into the public.
    Noble sentiments, but it's not like we're alone in this. Do you honestly think that China is totally on the up-and-up? How about the petty warlords and dictators in Africa? How about Kim Jong Il? Ahmedinejad? General Gaddafi? Think they're playing clean with everyone? Taking away our ability to engage in the same battle field as all of these jokers while allowing them to retain their own puts us at a huge disadvantage. We have the spotlight to endure, which puts us on our heels and playing a defensive game that anyone and everyone else can - and will - take advantage of.

    This isn't a step toward openness. It's a step toward chaos and degeneration once someone without the high ideals of the founding principles of America finally gets enough power to do something about us while we're sitting on our hands playing damage control.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  13. #13
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    447
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Unlike ourselves he is simply being honest and forthright about who we are and what we do. If we don't like the contents of these memos, we are the first group to blame for them, both because its our action and because we let our deception get out into the public.
    What he is doing is pretending that the U.S. is alone and the worst of the offenders. Anyone who thinks every nation on this planet - or at least those with resources to do so - does not engage in questionable intelligence practice is living in a fantasy world. (NOTE: I haven't read the memos so I'm not actually saying they are "questionable) The point is that the intent was to smear the U.S. because he hates us, not to be an altruistic do-gooder.

    And as already pointed out, this information endangers American lives. So anything that happens to this guy is what he has coming. Unless it's fame and fortune.

  14. #14
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,157
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    What about the Afghan leaks, there was actionable tactical data in those.
    The pentagon itself said they were not sensitive information that endangered their mission. That tells me that its not really actionable.

    ---------- Post added at 11:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    See... this kind of thinking, while idealistic, is very dangerous. Just because we act in good faith with other people doesn't mean that they will act in good faith with us. All the Wikileaks documents do is take away our ability to act in exactly the same way as every other nation in the world is doing, without the scrutiny. It won't actually stop the foul play; it will just drive it further underground. Naively assuming that people are just going to spontaneously "play fair" if someone else is forced to is an invitation to disaster.
    I think your attitude is the dangerous one. If we all wait for the other guy to stop cheating, no one will ever stop cheating. Why should america wait to be the last nation to act in a moral and honest fashion and not the first? Are we that afraid of other nations? Do we tremble at their might and awful power? I hope not. I think the person with the upper hand has to be the first to put down the knives and put out the place mat or no one is going to do it.

    Besides, wikileaks doesn't prevent us from having secrets, it just means we'd have to try harder to keep them. We let our own secrets into the world, Wikileaks just made them widely available once they were out there.

    Finally, I'm not against having spies, i just don't think we should be using our primary diplomats as spies. The people we say you should trust, well you should be able to trust them. Making them out and out spies puts their reputation at great risk and sours our ability to have honest relations.

    What the world needs may be more openness and honesty, but until all sides can be proven to have shown it, nobody can safely assume that it's the case and must act accordingly.
    So until there are no criminals we should all be thieves and until no one lies we should all remain liars. Not awesome reasoning in my book.

    The shadowy side of diplomacy has *always* existed. The people up in arms about the deceptions contained in the Wikileaks dumps are rank hypocrites. It's not like they're doing any different.. they just haven't been outed.
    If that is true than the people who are complaining that the already known truth is revealed are also hypocrites since there is no real secret to protect.

    I mean basically, you are saying lying is good so long as it is self serving. Is that really your stand?

    He is not American, so he is a hostile foreign national committing acts of war against this country.
    Journalism is an act of war now is it? Wow!
    I really think you are going off the deep end here.

    He should be treated as such. As far as slander, he has spun everything he could to paint the US in the worst possible light.
    If that is the case then the truth is the worst possible light we can stand in. If the truth about America is shameful, then America should change.

    It may be objectively true, but we don't know how much he's spinning this or how far out of context everything is.
    He didn't spin it or put it into context, just made the pretty much raw data available, that's it. Its up to you or whomever else to provide context or spin on the information.

    As far as hostility... I heartily disagree. He has demonstrated by his willingness to endanger US soldiers, allied informants and agents, and others that he *is* hostile to the US. Well, so be it.. if he's hostile to us, I say we get hostile right back and show him how hostile we can be. Maybe others will think twice about doing this kind of crap.
    Thats right Talthas, dare to speak the truth about our lies and well shoot you dead! Then no one will question anything we doo and all the world will bow at our feet!!

    Noble sentiments, but it's not like we're alone in this. Do you honestly think that China is totally on the up-and-up? How about the petty warlords and dictators in Africa? How about Kim Jong Il? Ahmedinejad? General Gaddafi? Think they're playing clean with everyone?
    No, but I kind of thought that was why we oppose them, they don't respect law or common decency or freedom of the press. So, if we abandon those principles to fight them, who should take us down for the same reasons?

    Criminals are corrupt so why shouldn't our law enforcement be corrupt too so we can better catch them? Wouldn't that be great?

    Are you saying that cheating and lying are the best ways to win a competition?

    This isn't a step toward openness. It's a step toward chaos and degeneration once someone without the high ideals of the founding principles of America finally gets enough power to do something about us while we're sitting on our hands playing damage control.
    You are just making excuses for bad behavior and encouraging the same kind of behavior by our nation that you castigate in others. Its hypocritical in the extreme.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  15. #15
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Pray for our troops
    Posts
    5,340
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Sigfried:
    I wonder how your view might change if:

    You were an Iraqi or Afghan whose family has worked with coalition forces to fight Al Quaeda and teh Taliban there, and some close family members were named in these leaks?

    or

    You were a veteran of the US Army, spent many months of your life, risked your life, saw friends die -- all to make a small part of Afghanistan (several villages) better -- only to find the Afghans whom you worked and risked so much to make friends and allies in the cause -- were named in those leaks and they and their children and families are now being targetted by the Taliban?

    Wikileaks is not a tool for whistleblowers. It is engaged in espionage during a time of war. It and its employees need to be treated as enemy spies in wartime. EG: take'em out back and shoot them. Frankly, I would not even go to the hassle of trying to make it look like an accident either. Make an example of them for others who might try similar things in the future.

    Anyone ever wonder why Wikileaks does not target the Chinese for their espionage? The death penalty is a dterrant.
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

    How can a moral wrong be a Civil Right?

  16. #16
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,157
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    [QUOTE=Spartacus;453092]
    I wonder how your view might change if:

    You were an Iraqi or Afghan whose family has worked with coalition forces to fight Al Quaeda and teh Taliban there, and some close family members were named in these leaks?
    It's a fair question. I'm sure I would have wished that they were not named. Then again if the Taliban is such that no one in Iraq or Afghanistan is safe for being mentioned as an ally of the coalition, that means that either the coalition isn't doing very well or we are not doing what we are morally obligated to to protect those who ally with us. No one wants to be a target, but then again if you are going to fight, expect to be in danger. The american revolutionaries didn't need to hide their names in secret memos.

    You were a veteran of the US Army, spent many months of your life, risked your life, saw friends die -- all to make a small part of Afghanistan (several villages) better -- only to find the Afghans whom you worked and risked so much to make friends and allies in the cause -- were named in those leaks and they and their children and families are now being targetted by the Taliban?
    I'd feel sympathy for them. I'd be worried for them. But ultimately when you pick a side, that's going to have consequences. If we ever want to see Iraq become a place where freedom really flourishes, then you have to be able to oppose terrorists openly and at the risk of your life. If the people can't do that, they can never have self determination.

    Wikileaks is not a tool for whistleblowers. It is engaged in espionage during a time of war. It and its employees need to be treated as enemy spies in wartime. EG: take'em out back and shoot them. Frankly, I would not even go to the hassle of trying to make it look like an accident either. Make an example of them for others who might try similar things in the future.
    And I'd call you a murderer Spart. Wikileaks did not obtain that information by subterfuge, they were handed it by an american traitor who had legal access to that information but was prohibited from sharing it.

    Anyone ever wonder why Wikileaks does not target the Chinese for their espionage? The death penalty is a dterrant.
    Well, you are wrong because they do target china and they are not dead.
    An example...
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-empires.html

    Wikileaks takes all comers when it comes to revealing secret and duplicitous information. They are not specifically targeting american any more than america often engages widely in such activities and has participants who want to blow the whistle on such behavior.

    You can read about them if you care to...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks

    WikiLeaks is an international new media non-profit organization that publishes submissions of otherwise unavailable documents from anonymous news sources and leaks. Its website, launched in 2006, is run by The Sunshine Press.[3] Within a year of its launch, the site claimed a database that had grown to more than 1.2 million documents.[6] The organization has described itself as having been founded by Chinese dissidents, as well as journalists, mathematicians, and start-up company technologists from the United States, Taiwan, Europe, Australia, and South Africa.[3] The Guardian newspaper describes Julian Assange, an Australian Internet activist, as its director.[7]
    WikiLeaks has won a number of awards, including the 2008 Economist magazine New Media Award.[8] In June 2009, WikiLeaks and Julian Assange won Amnesty International's UK Media Award (in the category "New Media") for the 2008 publication of "Kenya: The Cry of Blood Extra Judicial Killings and Disappearances",[9] a report by the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights about police killings in Kenya.[10] In May 2010, the New York Daily News listed WikiLeaks first in a ranking of "websites that could totally change the news".[11]
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  17. #17
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Wikileaks is NOT a "non-profit" organization.

    John Young, a co-founder recently confirmed that the organization has been selling state and corporate secrets for years.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2638016/posts

  18. #18
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    4,896
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    He is not American, so he is a hostile foreign national committing acts of war against this country.
    Really? I would be wary about bandying about terms like "acts of war", which are very drastic acts with specific definitions under international law.

    I would like to see you justify your claim that Assange has committed an "act of war" simply by revealing classified American information to the public. Does that mean the New York Times, Guardian, Der Spiegel et al. are complicit in acts of war? Is it the case that any time someone releases information that the American government wishes to keep secret, they have effectively declared war on the US? Should the NYT editors be prosecuted for treason? Should Obama start calling up his counterparts in UK, Germany, etc to demand that they shut down those newspapers who helped Assange commit an "act of war"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Asange is an anarchist and a terrorist.
    Call Assange an anarchist, sure, but a terrorist? Again, please don't throw around incendiary terms like that; you are diluting the gravity of terrorism. What acts of violence has Assange committed? How many hostages has he taken? What buildings has he bombed? What demands has he made?

    It definitely seems like there is a lot of exaggerated rhetoric here; your anger at American interests being compromised seems to be clouding your sense of perspective. Assange is far from being a terrorist or someone who has committed an act of war against America. He simply publicised classified information that an American soldier communicated to him. And he is not even an American, so what's wrong? Should I be obliged to keep secret damaging classified information from the Chinese/Iranian/North Korean government that comes into my possession?
    Trendem

  19. #19
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I think your attitude is the dangerous one. If we all wait for the other guy to stop cheating, no one will ever stop cheating. Why should america wait to be the last nation to act in a moral and honest fashion and not the first?
    You're mis-characterizing my argument. All I'm saying is that in a world where we already know that there are people using espionage and other underhanded tactics against us, we would be foolish not to take measures to ensure that we can compete in the arena, rather than naively trusting in the goodwill of other countries to "play fair."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    Finally, I'm not against having spies, i just don't think we should be using our primary diplomats as spies. The people we say you should trust, well you should be able to trust them. Making them out and out spies puts their reputation at great risk and sours our ability to have honest relations.
    This is a fair point... but it doesn't excuse the undue attention that's being focused on us for something that the entire rest of the world does as well.

    It's crap like this that has tied our hands for decades. We obey the Geneva conventions while Saddam Hussein uses mustard gas and biological agents in the field. We treat our prisoners of war humanely - or did, until Gitmo (and we actually punish our people when they go too far... which is still not as far as they go with our troops) - and get our generosity and mercy repaid with American journalists and other civilians being kidnapped and beheaded on video tape. Our soldiers are likewise brutalized, and have been in every single war we've fought since Vietnam, at least. Hanoi Hilton, much? Come on, Sig... just because we play nice doesn't mean anyone else will... in fact, we have learned that quite the opposite is true. History and the behavior of the nations we're up against have shown this repeatedly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    So until there are no criminals we should all be thieves and until no one lies we should all remain liars. Not awesome reasoning in my book.
    Straw man. You have unfairly simplified my point to the level of absurdity to make your case. My point is not simply that "we should lie until nobody lies." My point is that in an environment where our enemies and competitors have already demonstrated that they are willing and able to engage in underhanded and illegal actions, we must be willing and able to take countermeasures appropriate to their actions and to preempt their aggression whenever possible. If that means we do some things that are unpalatable to the public eye, so be it. It's almost certainly going to be less objectionable than what is already being done *to* us by our targets. We don't behead people publicly or fly planes full of people into buildings. We don't hoard up foreign currency against the day we decide to totally collapse another country's currency by calling in the total value of our holdings. We don't undermine peace talks by inflammatory rhetoric or refusing to cooperate with sanctions and embargoes against people that break the peace. We don't extort foreign aid out of other countries by threatening to use a nuclear weapon against a neighbor. The people we're spying on do those sorts of things.

    What we *do* engage in is acts of charity worldwide. No other country on the face of the planet gives more foreign aid than we do - including to countries that openly despise us. No other country in the world has a citizenry as prone to charitable giving to other people - including foreign countries - than we do. We *are* the good guys. A couple of diplomatic gaffes and some embarrassing revelations about diplomats isn't going to change that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    If that is true than the people who are complaining that the already known truth is revealed are also hypocrites since there is no real secret to protect.
    No, they're not hypocrites. The hypocrisy is in the undue focus that is being put on the US in all of this, when everyone else's hands are at least as dirty as our own. It's like everyone is playing in a mudpit, and someone gets singled out as "the dirty one" because their mother comes out and scolds them for getting dirty. It neither makes any of the others any cleaner nor the one singled out any dirtier. It just means that the focus has been shifted unfairly onto one person who, in truth, is probably cleaner than most in the grand scheme of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    I mean basically, you are saying lying is good so long as it is self serving. Is that really your stand?
    It most certainly is not, and that is pretty obviously a straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    Journalism is an act of war now is it? Wow!
    I really think you are going off the deep end here.
    I think you're going off the deep end to call this Assange clown a journalist. Journalists don't leak information that gets civilians and military operatives killed. Journalists are responsible about the information they print because they know that it can have a profound impact on the world and can cost lives. Assange is *not* a journalist. He is a bullhorn for domestic spies engaged in active espionage during a time of war. In my book, if that doesn't make him a spy, it at least makes him on the side of the enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    If that is the case then the truth is the worst possible light we can stand in....

    He didn't spin it or put it into context, just made the pretty much raw data available, that's it. Its up to you or whomever else to provide context or spin on the information.
    Assange himself said that he held on to the documents in question and redacted and collated them in such a way as to "give people a clearer idea of what was going on" (paraphrased). If that's not spin, I don't know what is. The selective release of information that is exclusively damaging to specific countries in light of the *thousands* of documents he had - some of which could possibly have been used to show the good side of the countries involved (but we'll never know) - is propaganda at its finest. You mix in just enough speculation with your truth to sweeten it a bit, and people eat it up like candy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    Thats right Talthas, dare to speak the truth about our lies and well shoot you dead! Then no one will question anything we doo and all the world will bow at our feet!!
    Again, you either demonstrate your failure to understand my point or your intentional mis-characterization of it. Please stop using straw men. If you want to have an actual dialogue about this, then that's fine... but distorting my point does both of us a disservice.

    My objection is primarily that Assange's irresponsibility has endangered both US military personnel and operatives that were being used in active war efforts. The effect of this is most likely going to be that we will have a much more difficult time securing the cooperation of locals in our efforts, which will ultimately cost many more soldiers' lives and billions of dollars in an unnecessarily extended military campaign. He used the information he obtained illegally in a way that was intentionally damaging not only to US diplomatic efforts but also to active military campaigns. In my book, that's an act of war, and I don't think you can reasonably disagree with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    No, but I kind of thought that was why we oppose them, they don't respect law or common decency or freedom of the press. So, if we abandon those principles to fight them, who should take us down for the same reasons?
    The things that have been revealed about us, even if the other side is doing them, are the *least* of their crimes. As I pointed out above, we're not threatening to turn cities into a sea of glass to extort foreign aid out of them or flying planes into buildings, last time I checked. If we need to engage in a bit of deception in order to prevent those things from happening, I say that we're still being nicer than our opponents deserve and *still* nicer than they're being at all.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  20. #20
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,157
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: WikiLeaks and The World

    Quote Originally Posted by WingNut View Post
    Wikileaks is NOT a "non-profit" organization.

    John Young, a co-founder recently confirmed that the organization has been selling state and corporate secrets for years.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2638016/posts
    A disgruntled former partner who runs a rival site and has no actual proof other than his claim when he can cash in just as much by trying to discredit the guy who is big in the news....

    It could be true, but since Wikileaks seems to be in the habit of giving away its intel, it would seem odd that they also sell it. I'll reserve judgement if this is the evidence.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

 

 
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •