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Thread: The Holocaust

  1. #1
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    The Holocaust

    The Holocaust was an event which involved the murder of approximately six million Jews. It was a horrific event; children were murdered, babies, women, fathers, sons, grandfathers, daughters, millions were murdered simply for having a belief. Movies such as Schindler's List and Defiance attempt to portray the accounts of survivors as well as accounts of the death of millions. Nazi doctors conducted medical experiments on the prisoners of the camps against their will; the experiments often resulted in the death of the subjects. When the Jews were released, there was already around six million dead.

    We all know (most of us that accept the Holocaust happened) that it was a dreadful time in world history, that will never be forgotten.

    Although it was dreadful, and although we will always remember the dreadful things that happened to these women, children and men, have we overlooked something?

    Turn back time, to when Jesus was crucified. What happened? His people (the Jews) rejected Him. Just before Jesus was crucified:

    22Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

    23And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

    24When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

    25Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children - Matthew 27:22-25

    The Jews said this. Before this point can be argued, I will add what Peter said to the onlookers:

    Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see - Acts 3:11-16.

    Are you thinking what I am thinking? Look closely at what the Jews did; they rejected their King, then they crucified Him. But what else did they do? When Pilate saw that Jesus was innocent, he said "I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it" and the Jews said "His blood be on us, and on our children".

    It was wasn't it? They took full responsibility, saying that the blame was theirs. It could be interpreted as 'Let us suffer on account of this Man's life'. Did the Jew's suffer? Thousands of years later, The Holocaust happened. The awful dreadful murder of around six million Jews.

    Could all this be related? They were after all the children of the Jews that crucified Jesus, and they did suffer.

    For those of you who don't believe the bible to be true, realize that the bible existed at the time of the Holocaust (obviously) and so the words of the Jews who crucified Christ in a sense came true didn't they; their children suffered.

    *Just a note: In no way am I justifying what happened to the Jews, I am merely noting the connection between the two events.*
    Last edited by Leanne1; January 12th, 2011 at 03:08 PM.

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    Re: The Holocaust

    Quote Originally Posted by Leanne1 View Post
    Are you thinking what I am thinking? Look closely at what the Jews did; they rejected their King, then they crucified Him. But what else did they do? When Pilate saw that Jesus was innocent, he said "I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it" and the Jews said "His blood be on us, and on our children".

    It was wasn't it? They took full responsibility, saying that the blame was theirs. It could be interpreted as 'Let us suffer on account of this Man's life'. Did the Jew's suffer? Thousands of years later, The Holocaust happened. The awful dreadful murder of around six million Jews.

    Could all this be related? They were after all the children of the Jews that crucified Jesus, and they did suffer.

    For those of you who don't believe the bible to be true, realize that the bible existed at the time of the Holocaust (obviously) and so the words of the Jews who crucified Christ in a sense came true didn't they; their children suffered.
    With our species’ violent history it should come as no surprise that a vague prophesy concerning blood and suffering would come true over a two thousand year period. Vague prophesies like this with no indicated time frame and no specific details are almost guaranteed to come true given the “correct” interpretation and enough time.

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    Re: The Holocaust

    Leanne - You do have to a degree a point in as far as Christianity did label 'Deicide' upon the Jews [until quite recent times]; and indeed very early on in Muhammad's attacks on trading caravans, on hamlets, towns, and on religious groups, the Jews were also particularly targetted.

    Jesus is also recorded as forecasting the destruction of the Temple and the scattering of the Jews {70AD]. It was indeed a bloody affair.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

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    Re: The Holocaust

    Leanne, thing that strikes me first is that Jesus was a Jew, so were all his disciples and so on. Everyone who wasn't a Roman was a Jew.

    As for the holocaust, to understand that you need to know about the world economy and politics of the 1930s. Also why Jews had been discriminated against throughout Europe for several hundred years.

    The main reason for anti-semitism started when Christians wanted to take their jobs and businesses. The only thing left for many of them was money lending, partly because Christians weren't supposed to do that. This contributed to them getting a bad image, as nobody likes money lenders.

    The specifics of the holocaust are fairly straight forward. You have to start with the first world war. This started because of Germany's late arrival on the colonial scene. It was a battle between Germany and Britain for world domination. Germany lost.

    In 1919 there was a revolution like in Russia, but it was sold out by the leaders of the main workers party in Germany, the SPD.

    At the time, most of the population was middle class. Most of them faced economic ruin.

    Hitler began to speak out on behalf of the angry middle class. He said whatever got the most applause. His party grew.

    The Communists made the worst historic decision ever. Precisely at the worst moment in history, Moscow (for reasons I will explain in the Formal Debate on Stalinism) made an ultra-left lurch in policy, and refused to unite with the Social Democrats to stop the rise of the Nazis, as Trotsky was suggesting.

    So the Nazis got bigger.

    Big business decided they had to back the Nazis and did a deal with them, helping Hitler into power.

    Hitler rounded up the communists and put them in concentration camps.

    Then he prepared for war, with the help of big American companies like Ford.

    Then came the inevitable holocaust.

    Good summary of the main events here in the form of a timeline

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/trot...many/index.htm

    extract:


    1933 January 30: Hindenburg appoints Hitler as Chancellor. Papen is Vice-Chancellor. Hitler agrees to take only three of 11 cabinet posts. Trotsky expects worker parties will resist Hitler and mobilize. SPD leaders say “Hitler’s appointment” is constitutional and forbid worker actions that might upset the Nazis. The KPD, on the other hand, is still denouncing the SPD.

    1933 March (manc - this should say February ) 5: Hitler gets Hindenburg to dissolve parliament. In the run-up to new election, KPD meetings are banned. KDP press are shut down. Nazis finally take control of Prussia and its nationwide police force and flooded it with storm troopers. The terror begins.

    TROTSKY’S WORKS ON THIS PERIOD:

    1933 February 5: Before the Decision

    1933 February 23: The United Front for Defense: A Letter to a Social Democratic Worker

    1933 February 27: Nazis start fire in the Reichstag and blame it on Communists.

    1933 February 28: President Hindenburg suspends Constitutional guarantees of freedom of expression, press, assembly, association. Thousands of KPD and SPD officials are arrested. Only the Nazis and Nationalists are permitted to campaign in the last week before the election.

    1933 March 5: Reichstag elections. Even with all this “constitutional” oppression, the Nazis still couldn’t get a majority. But it was still game over. KPD calls for national strikes.

    1933 March 23: Citing the Constitution, Hitler asks new Reichstag to grant him dictatorial power. This requires a two-thirds Reichstag vote. As KPD deputies are jailed or leaving the country, Hitler’s demand is granted (441 to 84). Liberal and conservative parties vote for it. Only the remaing Social Democrats vote against it.

    1933 April 7: Stalinists Comintern deludes itself about an expected proletarian revolution soon to follow Hitler’s victory. While it dreams, the KPD is annihilated.

    1933 May 1: May Day. The remaining SPD is a different beast than Frederick Engels had known. This creature supports Hitler’s various labor “reorganizations” and encourages workers to march in the Nazi “National Day of Labor” parade May 1.

    1933 May 2: Nazis take over the trade-union movement and send labor leaders to concentration camps.
    Last edited by manc; January 13th, 2011 at 01:49 AM.

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    Re: The Holocaust

    Please tell me you're joking.

    For those of you who don't believe the bible to be true, realize that the bible existed at the time of the Holocaust (obviously) and so the words of the Jews who crucified Christ in a sense came true didn't they; their children suffered.
    Which is why Christians through the centuries have happy-go-luckily engaged in the slaughter of Jews at the drop of a metaphorical hat.

    Please, please tell me you're joking.

    ---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 PM ----------

    And why don't we just start with this:

    Jesus was not the Jews' King, or their Messiah, or the Son of God. He's a carpenter who is long since dead and buried, and who ain't coming back - and who people worship. Nothing more, nothing less.
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    Re: The Holocaust

    Leanne, thing that strikes me first is that Jesus was a Jew, so were all his disciples and so on. Everyone who wasn't a Roman was a Jew.

    As for the holocaust, to understand that you need to know about the world economy and politics of the 1930s. Also why Jews had been discriminated against throughout Europe for several hundred years.

    The main reason for anti-semitism started when Christians wanted to take their jobs and businesses. The only thing left for many of them was money lending, partly because Christians weren't supposed to do that. This contributed to them getting a bad image, as nobody likes money lenders.

    The specifics of the holocaust are fairly straight forward. You have to start with the first world war. This started because of Germany's late arrival on the colonial scene. It was a battle between Germany and Britain for world domination. Germany lost.

    In 1919 there was a revolution like in Russia, but it was sold out by the leaders of the main workers party in Germany, the SPD.

    At the time, most of the population was middle class. Most of them faced economic ruin.

    Hitler began to speak out on behalf of the angry middle class. He said whatever got the most applause. His party grew.

    The Communists made the worst historic decision ever. Precisely at the worst moment in history, Moscow (for reasons I will explain in the Formal Debate on Stalinism) made an ultra-left lurch in policy, and refused to unite with the Social Democrats to stop the rise of the Nazis, as Trotsky was suggesting.

    So the Nazis got bigger.

    Big business decided they had to back the Nazis and did a deal with them, helping Hitler into power.

    Hitler rounded up the communists and put them in concentration camps.

    Then he prepared for war, with the help of big American companies like Ford.

    Then came the inevitable holocaust.
    Manc, interesting post. I do understand the lead up events to the Holocaust, but I think you have misunderstood my OP.

    My line of thought is more that although God could have prevented the Holocaust, and prevented all that happened to them, He didn't, perhaps because of the statement made by Jews when Jesus was crucified; 'His blood be on us and on our children'.

    So, God could have stopped the final event (the Holocaust was as we all know, an extreme act) but He didn't. He didn't prevent the camps, the experiments, the murder of six million. He allowed the lead up events also, allowing the hate for Jews to grow and grow, He allowed Hitler to rise to power, knowing what would happen.

    I understand the rising hate in the people for the Jews and the reasons such as their success etc, but the point I am targeting is that God allowed things to come so far, as far as the murder of six million Jews.

    My point is this: God allowed it to happen. God allowed such an extreme event to take place. Why? Perhaps because of the statement they made when they crucified His Son.

    Kivam: I understand that you are a Jew, therefore were none to pleased when reading my OP. Just a note: I am not 100% certain about what I am wondering in regards to the Holocaust, perhaps I am 100% wrong.

    And why don't we just start with this:

    Jesus was not the Jews' King, or their Messiah, or the Son of God. He's a carpenter who is long since dead and buried, and who ain't coming back - and who people worship. Nothing more, nothing less
    Why would "we" start with that? It is not what I believe. So, you can start with that if you like, but I am happy starting where I started.

    Please, please tell me you're joking.
    No one in their right mind jokes about the Holocaust.

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    Re: The Holocaust

    Well, I don't believe in god Leanne, the only person who was right about the rise of fascism was Trotsky.

    I thought god was supposed to have a non-intervention policy anyway? That's what my dad would say.

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    Re: The Holocaust

    Leane . . . I suppose the point is this - if you want to wallow in the justifiably rejected notions of Deicide and "collective jewish guilt" for Jesus' death that led to blood libels (the real thing, not Sarah Palin-style), pogroms, massacres, expulsions, and other abhorrent Christian actions through the centuries (I know, I know, they weren't "true Christians"), I can't stop you. Frankly, the idea of a massacre of 6 million people, men women and children, as the outcome of a "curse" imposed on their forefathers 2,000 years earlier, and the proposal that a just God did not "step in" because of that (which, btw, is an argument that Jews today deserve to die for the supposed sins of their forefathers - since, after all, the idea that God would have otherwise prevented it assumes that God's "action" of not preventing it was just due to the "curse") is as profound an argument for the immorality of Christianity and the incoherence of Christian theology as I can imagine.

    But your entire post presupposes the validity of Christian scriptures (which I reject). So I have nothing else to say on the topic of this discussion other than to express my profound disgust that any thinking human being could have expended the effort to type it up.

    ---------- Post added at 06:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Leanne1 View Post
    No one in their right mind jokes about the Holocaust.
    Prior to your post, I would have said the same thing about raising the old Deicide charge as relevant to the Holocaust.
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    Re: The Holocaust

    Kivam:

    Firstly, I do not refer to it as a "curse". I did not even imply that God created any of it. I was simply saying that perhaps there could be a connection between the two events, and perhaps the event could have been prevented.

    Jews today deserve to die for the supposed sins of their forefathers
    In no way do I agree with this statement, where in my OP did I imply that I did? In fact, at the end of my OP I typed: *Just a note: In no way am I justifying what happened to the Jews, I am merely noting the connection between the two events.*.
    I also explained how awful I believe the Holocaust to be, and that the deaths of the six million was completely and utterly wrong.
    Your disgust is obvious due to the fact that you are indeed a Jew, this is to be expected. My disgust in you is that you have misread my OP, judged me saying that I believe Jews deserve to die today and that you have overlooked everything I said about the Jews.

    I will state again, my point was that the awful event that will never be forgotten was horrific, evil, and completely wrong. But, if the Jews had not crucified Jesus, and stated "His blood be on us and on our children" then perhaps God might have prevented the end event.

    Of course you will disagree with this, you are a Jew and do not accept Jesus as Christ.

    I stated in my next post that I could be "100% wrong" in my wondering and that I was willing to believe if I was wrong.

    Obviously, a defensive instinct kicked in and caused you to be blinded which would explain why you only saw around two lines of my post and included your own little story of how I think Jews should be murdered all over again which is a very serious accusation, and one that is untrue.

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    Re: The Holocaust

    Quote Originally Posted by Leanne1 View Post
    Kivam:

    Firstly, I do not refer to it as a "curse". I did not even imply that God created any of it. I was simply saying that perhaps there could be a connection between the two events, and perhaps the event could have been prevented.



    In no way do I agree with this statement, where in my OP did I imply that I did? In fact, at the end of my OP I typed: *Just a note: In no way am I justifying what happened to the Jews, I am merely noting the connection between the two events.*.
    I also explained how awful I believe the Holocaust to be, and that the deaths of the six million was completely and utterly wrong.
    Your disgust is obvious due to the fact that you are indeed a Jew, this is to be expected. My disgust in you is that you have misread my OP, judged me saying that I believe Jews deserve to die today and that you have overlooked everything I said about the Jews.

    I will state again, my point was that the awful event that will never be forgotten was horrific, evil, and completely wrong. But, if the Jews had not crucified Jesus, and stated "His blood be on us and on our children" then perhaps God might have prevented the end event.

    Of course you will disagree with this, you are a Jew and do not accept Jesus as Christ.

    I stated in my next post that I could be "100% wrong" in my wondering and that I was willing to believe if I was wrong.

    Obviously, a defensive instinct kicked in and caused you to be blinded which would explain why you only saw around two lines of my post and included your own little story of how I think Jews should be murdered all over again which is a very serious accusation, and one that is untrue.
    Leanne, I am certain you don't actually think "Jews today deserve to die etc."

    However, if you consider the implications of your suggestion, you'll see that that presumption is inherent in your argument:

    1) Jews say "on our children" (meh)

    2) 2,000 years later, the Holocaust happens

    3) you propose there is a relationship - i.e. a causal connection - between the Holocaust and the statement 2000 years earlier

    4) What could that connection be? The options:
    A) Natural Cause and effect: The story of the death of Jesus causes Christians to hate Jews, slaughtering them through the years, and culminating in the Holocaust; or
    B) Justification: No causal relationship, but God would not have allowed the Holocaust to happen had it not been for the Jews' statement that the blood should be on the hands of their children.

    You are clearly not suggesting the former; all that claim does is argue that the Holocaust resulted from anti-semitism, which is self-evident, and ties anti-semitism into christian scripture (which is also self-evident, but I don't think you really want to do).

    Which means that you must be suggesting the latter; that, for some reason outside of the realm of natural cause and effect, the Holocaust would not have happened but for the Jews' alleged statement.

    When you are outside of the realm of normal cause and effect, you are talking about God - either God caused it, or God would have stopped it but chose not to because of the Jews' statement.

    Since God is just and all of God's acts are just, the assertion that either God caused or chose not to stop the Holocaust specifically because of the Jews' statement is a claim that the death of Jews in the Holocaust was just because of the Jews' statement.

    But hey, maybe I'm missing something. What alternative relationship do you propose between the Holocaust and the Jews' statement other than the two above
    Last edited by Kivam; January 14th, 2011 at 06:39 AM.
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    Re: The Holocaust

    Kivam: Thanks very much for your reply.

    4) What could that connection be? The options:
    A) Natural Cause and effect: The story of the death of Jesus causes Christians to hate Jews, slaughtering them through the years, and culminating in the Holocaust; or
    B) Justification: No causal relationship, but God would not have allowed the Holocaust to happen had it not been for the Jews' statement that the blood should be on the hands of their children.
    Ok, so A. I do not hate Jews and I am not in agreement with the slaughtering of Jews. I believe that everyone has sinned, and God tells us to love, not hate. Therefore for Christians to kill Jews proves two things:

    A) They have disobeyed God
    B) They are not true Christians

    Two wrongs don't make a right. So sure, Christians believe that the Jews cruicified Jesus. And I am a Christian, but I don't hate Jews. Look at it like this: God hates sin, but he does not hate the sinner. I hate what they did, but I do not hate them.

    Your answer (B) states that God would have prevented the Holocaust and six million deaths if they had not stated "His blood be on us and on our children". More than this though, they also crucified His Son, so that would perhaps come into this also (before you say it, I am not implying that God got 'revenge', I am implying that perhaps this is more reason for Him not to prevent the second event.) This is what my OP suggested, but I am aware I could be very wrong; It was the idea of the connection that I was targeting.

    When you are outside of the realm of normal cause and effect, you are talking about God - either God caused it, or God would have stopped it but chose not to because of the Jews' statement.
    No, I am not in any way implying that God created it. God allowed it, yes. Its not like he prevented it is it? So, he allowed it to happen. This is when I made my point of the connection; could there perhaps be a connection in the two events (crucifiction of Jesus and this) and that perhaps God allowed it because of the statement of "His blood be on us and on our children" in the first event.

    Since God is just and all of God's acts are just, the assertion that either God caused or chose not to stop the Holocaust specifically because of the Jews' statement is a claim that the death of Jews in the Holocaust was just because of the Jews' statement.
    This is the point that confuses me. God is just, so why would He allow such an event to happen? But then, He allowed WWI and WWII to happen, as well as other horrific events. He could have chose these events to stop, but He didn't. He could have prevented these wars, but He didn't. He also chose not to prevent the Holocaust. Why? Connection? Or perhaps there was no connection.

    But hey, maybe I'm missing something. What alternative relationship do you propose between the Holocaust and the Jews' statement other than the two above
    (To avoid confusion and further accusation, let me state that I am very much against what happened to the Jews in the Holocaust)

    Here is a proposed alternative relationship between the two events: The Jews crucified Jesus, Pilate was not in agreement and saw that Jesus was just, but the Jews said "His blood be on us and on our children", Jesus was crucified. 2,000 years later (a long, long time) six million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust. Connection?

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    Re: The Holocaust

    Quote Originally Posted by Leanne1 View Post
    Kivam: Thanks very much for your reply.
    Any time


    Two wrongs don't make a right. So sure, Christians believe that the Jews cruicified Jesus. And I am a Christian, but I don't hate Jews. Look at it like this: God hates sin, but he does not hate the sinner. I hate what they did, but I do not hate them.
    What who did? Jews? Or the Jews who were alive in Jesus' time? I assume the latter - but some people forget to make that distinction.

    Your answer (B) states that God would have prevented the Holocaust and six million deaths if they had not stated "His blood be on us and on our children". More than this though, they also crucified His Son, so that would perhaps come into this also (before you say it, I am not implying that God got 'revenge', I am implying that perhaps this is more reason for Him not to prevent the second event.) This is what my OP suggested, but I am aware I could be very wrong; It was the idea of the connection that I was targeting.
    Pretty much what I assumed. Now, lets look at what this means:

    1) For your suggestion to be true, you must assume that without the "his blood"/crucifixion, God would have stepped in.

    (Because if that isn't true - if God would have stayed out regardless - then the statement "the holocaust has a relationship to the crucifixion" would be false, since the same holocaust would have happened even without the crucifixion).

    2) Therefore, you must assume, for your suggestion to be true, that the "his blood"/crucifixion was the reason God did not step in

    (this is just rephrasing point 1)

    3) God is just and God's actions are just

    (A premise we can both agree on)

    4) Therefore, you must conclude that it was just for God to not step in.

    5) Since you are saying the reason God did not step in was "his blood"/the crucifixion, you must conclude that "his blood"/the crucifixion made it just to allow 6,000,000 jews to die in the Holocaust - even though not a single one of those six million jews, men women and children, the elderly and babies, had anything at all to do with "his blood"/the crucifixion.

    Do you see the problem here?


    This is the point that confuses me. God is just, so why would He allow such an event to happen? But then, He allowed WWI and WWII to happen, as well as other horrific events. He could have chose these events to stop, but He didn't. He could have prevented these wars, but He didn't. He also chose not to prevent the Holocaust. Why? Connection? Or perhaps there was no connection.
    This is, simply, a question relating to the problem of suffering - why does God allow bad things to happen. Since there's a whole thread on that, I'm not going to repeat the discussion here. But your other examples help make the point - there was no more a connection between God not stepping in to stop the Holocaust and the crucifixion of Jesus than there is between God not stepping in to stop any number of other horrific events having nothing to do with the Jews.
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    Re: The Holocaust

    Do you see the problem here?
    No, because the Jews were God's chosen people. Therefore, if they had not rejected God in the way that they did, this is why the Holocaust would/could have been prevented.

    What who did? Jews? Or the Jews who were alive in Jesus' time? I assume the latter - but some people forget to make that distinction.
    Yes, sorry, the Jews that were alive in Jesus' time.

    Since you are saying the reason God did not step in was "his blood"/the crucifixion, you must conclude that "his blood"/the crucifixion made it just to allow 6,000,000 jews to die in the Holocaust - even though not a single one of those six million jews, men women and children, the elderly and babies, had anything at all to do with "his blood"/the crucifixion.
    The Jews said "His blood be on us and our children"; this means, that in their lifetime or their children's lifetime, His blood would perhaps be on them. My OP states that it was on them; on six million of them, their "children". I agree that the Jews in the Holocaust were not there at His crucifiction (obviously), but they were the children of the Jews that were there.

    there was no more a connection between God not stepping in to stop the Holocaust and the crucifixion of Jesus than there is between God not stepping in to stop any number of other horrific events having nothing to do with the Jews.
    There is; the Jews were God's chosen people, who rejected Him. This is different from WWI and WWII etc, these were His people, that crucified His Son.

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    Re: The Holocaust

    @ Leanne1,

    OK, I am not going to bother with too much emotional stuff here, let us just ask some questions and give real answers?

    1) Technical question: Just speculating that something may have caused something else 2000 years later without an argument and repeatedly saying you could be wrong, I don't know etc. is not really a debate, wouldn't you agree?

    But, lets pander to this,

    2) Q: How can someone make a verbal declaration about their own kids (who are not yet born btw) and have that actually happen?

    Example: A man in L.A. declares to a police officer: "If I am truly guilty of speeding officer, then I agree that my next born child should be fined $50."

    a) Do you have evidence of this happening in the world around you?

    b) Would the allowance of verbal declarations (by parents upon their unborn children) to be effective, be considered just?

    c) Do you have any scriptural source in your religion to back up this idea as being God's justice?

    d) By what mechanism does this occur? Is it magic?

    e) What do you do with the verse in Ezekiel: 18:20 "The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them."

    3) Does such acceptance of blood guilt by a crowd upon their own children have the power to affect different parties who have nothing to do with it?

    a) When the NT reported that the crowd of Jews accepted blood guilt upon their children, before Pilate, did it apply as simply spoken? Their children would have been alive then as youngsters, or soon to be born. Why doesn't the guilt apply to that generation and no further? Accepting something on one's children would seem to mean immediate progeny no?

    b) How did this acceptance of blood guilt specifically affect great great great etc etc grandchildren?

    c) Why did it skip all previous generations including the obvious first generation of the people who uttered the acceptance?

    d) It also seems that although there was a "crowd" of Jews before Pilate who asked that Jesus be crucified, we do not know how large that crowd was?

    Please tell us how many people were there and how you know this.

    At the time of 32 C.E., the Jewish people were already scattered and living around the known world outside the tiny country of Israel. It would seem to any observer that the crowd of Jews before Pilate represented quite a small percentage of the nation of Jews then living. I would even venture that thousands upon thousands of Jews living abroad were not even aware of some guy named Jesus, Pilate, or any decision to crucify anyone in Jerusalem etc.

    Therefore, How did the acceptance of blood guilt by a minority of local Jews grant such guilt upon the children of any and all Jews then living in places like Galilee, Babylon, Rome, Greece, etc.?

    This is getting absurd.

    4) While you are at it, can you please explain why about 40 million Christians died in the Holocaust years of WWII? I was "wondering if maybe" it might be because Peter was a Jew and gave the blood guilt explanation as Church doctrine. Then, since he was a Christian, and all those hearing him preach represented the early Christian Church (many of whom were Jews!); could it be that they too shared such guilt and there is a connection to this and 40 million of their descendants getting murdered in WWII?

    BTW: The death of those Christians in WWII was a horrible and evil act IMHO.

    - Shalom, DAK
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  15. #15
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    Re: The Holocaust

    Hmm.. on that line of thought, how come most of the people who died in WW2 were communists? Jesus was a communist. So god should go easy on us lefties.

    In fact part of the reason for the holocaust was that Hitler believed that communism was a Jewish plot, so where does that leave us?

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    Re: The Holocaust

    2) Q: How can someone make a verbal declaration about their own kids (who are not yet born btw) and have that actually happen?

    Example: A man in L.A. declares to a police officer: "If I am truly guilty of speeding officer, then I agree that my next born child should be fined $50."

    a) Do you have evidence of this happening in the world around you?
    Your example is pointless and irrelevant; God is not included in your example. “How can someone make a verbal declaration about their own kids and have that actually happen?” God can do anything; “With God all things are possible”.

    b) Would the allowance of verbal declarations (by parents upon their unborn children) to be effective, be considered just?
    God allowed WWI and WWII to happen. Are you saying He is unjust for this?

    c) Do you have any scriptural source in your religion to back up this idea as being God's justice?
    To back up the idea that there could be a connection between the two events? If I did, I wouldn’t be saying I could be wrong would I?

    d) By what mechanism does this occur? Is it magic?
    By what mechanism did what occur? Is what magic?

    e) What do you do with the verse in Ezekiel: 18:20 "The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them."
    That is an interesting point (one that I had not considered before now). What about what God wrote in the second commandment: “visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me”. I believe that God is speaking about cause and effect (consequences) here in the second commandment, and is speaking about salvation in Ezekiel.

    3) Does such acceptance of blood guilt by a crowd upon their own children have the power to affect different parties who have nothing to do with it?
    When God is involved, the situation has power. The declaration involved the children (different parties) therefore yes; it does affect them (the children).

    a) When the NT reported that the crowd of Jews accepted blood guilt upon their children, before Pilate, did it apply as simply spoken? Their children would have been alive then as youngsters, or soon to be born. Why doesn't the guilt apply to that generation and no further? Accepting something on one's children would seem to mean immediate progeny no?
    Again, I could include: "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me". The children mentioned here are through the generations.


    b) How did this acceptance of blood guilt specifically affect great great great etc etc grandchildren?
    Perhaps look at it this way: It is not that the children are blamed because of their fathers sins, it is that the children have carried through with the same sin; rejecting Christ. The Jews crucified Jesus, therefore Jews today that reject Christ are committing that same sin in rejecting Him. It is those that are the children of the Jews that crucified Christ.

    c) Why did it skip all previous generations including the obvious first generation of the people who uttered the acceptance?
    You should know the answer to that, my friend; “God works in mysterious ways”. Are you implying that Jews have had an easy ride through history?

    d) It also seems that although there was a "crowd" of Jews before Pilate who asked that Jesus be crucified, we do not know how large that crowd was?
    Are you serious? Jesus was their King, they rejected Him. Jesus cured the blind, cured the sick, brought the dead to life, fed a crowd of 5,000 with only five loaves of bread and two small fish, turned water to wine, comforted, loved, performed miracles, He was (and is) the Son of God, a woman touched the hem of His garment and was healed instantly. It was a public execution of an innocent and just Man who had publically performed miracles. Do you still reckon the crowd could have been small?

    This is getting absurd.
    Indeed.

    4) While you are at it, can you please explain why about 40 million Christians died in the Holocaust years of WWII? I was "wondering if maybe" it might be because Peter was a Jew and gave the blood guilt explanation as Church doctrine. Then, since he was a Christian, and all those hearing him preach represented the early Christian Church (many of whom were Jews!); could it be that they too shared such guilt and there is a connection to this and 40 million of their descendants getting murdered in WWII?
    This is irrelevant to the OP. Why not start a thread about it elsewhere; I would be interested to see your views

  17. #17
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    Re: The Holocaust

    I origionaly was disgusted by this post, but after over a day I still can't shake it from my mind.


    If one sets their mind to believe something that just seems a bit too good to be true, or somewhat pushing the boarders of reality, then there is always the need to conform the world around them to compensate for the descrepencies between observation and expectation. I understand the psychological need of uncertain beliefs to strain anything given to help restrain the feeling of groundless opinion, but there is always the remainder of events/happenings/facts that are just left as unimportant/irrelevant. It is unhealthy thinking to pick and choose from your environment the pieces which can be manuvered into backing a belief instead of believing in something which properly can handle the totality of your enviroment. Why choose certain events to apply your theory to while so blatantly exempting the other occurances of the same happenings? (Chemical warfare, fearfilled propaganda, deamonization, and the fullest use of available modern science were all employed by America to wipe out countless cultures in the land now called America, where is scripture/prophicies to explain this? Is every instance of Jewish suffering to be interpereted as prophicy fullfilled?)

    This is the same style of wishful logic which proves astrology, numerology, ect. 'True'.

    Starting or ending any weaving together of distant facts with 'just a thought', 'not my opinion, but', 'don't believe, but I noticed', or any such qualification is mostly used to infect the public sphere with misleading distractions and/or derrangement. (sounds like a Glen Beck conspiracy intro!)

    Just because one can coax things together does not mean that they naturaly belong together.

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    Re: The Holocaust

    Utterly unbelievable.

    Just because one can coax things together does not mean that they naturaly belong together.
    Why have I had to repeat myself SO MANY TIMES? I said (I can't believe I am even bothering to repeat myself) that I noticed a CONNECTION between TWO MAJOR EVENTS in history, I EXPLAINED THE POSSIBLE CONNECTION and was WILLING TO SEE IF I WAS WRONG.

    Where did I state that they "naturaly belong together"?

    This is a DEBATE SITE. I have been studying the Holocaust for over two years, and have only recently noticed that there could be a connection between the two events. Why should I stay silent just because of people like you that decide what should and should not be debated? Why should I not voice my thoughts aloud and be willing to accept if I am wrong when there is a site such as this that is FOR DEBATING.

    As for what "disgusts" ME is that people like you are allowed to debate, yet tell others to keep quiet just because you do not like their ideas.

    As for "infecting the public sphere", I did no such thing, but I sure can turn this around on you and state that you have ruined my will to debate this matter and you have infected THIS public sphere with your pathetic post.

    I no longer wish to debate with morons like you who turn a blind eye to the OP, sorry to all who were willing to participate.

    *No longer debating this thread*.
    Last edited by Leanne1; January 14th, 2011 at 05:44 PM.

  19. #19
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    Re: The Holocaust

    I think everyone should take a chill pill, try to see things from the other persons point of view.

    The cause of the holocaust was fascism, which was anti-communism, and was promoted by capitalism.

    Leanne, you need to understand you are on highly contentious and emotive territory. According to the theory, anyone who is not a believer is knackered, damned or could be punished or whatever. My dad is a Christian, he used to be a lay preacher. I am not a believer. Does he think I will go to hell because of that, or be punished in some other way? I don't think so. If god is that punitive, what's so great about him?

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    Re: The Holocaust

    I have no doubts at all that the connection , between anti semitism and organized Christianity is all too real. It is quite easy, to use scripture to justify this, just as those who suppoorted Slavery at one time did.

    How ever, I think its a huge leap, to tie that into God some how confining him self to what Christianity has claimed at times.

    I do not believe sin is inherited to begin with.

    But even assuming that it is, there are several problems with God some how assigning collective guilt to the whole Jewish faith, and viewing as an "inherited" thing for generations after wards.

    First off, this would assume that it was all Jews that were guilty of supporting his execution.

    This is a fallacy to begin with. There were many categories of Jews. There were those that followed him, those that welcomed him like at Jerusalem, and many who knew nothing about him.

    Its even quite possible, that Judas him self, was not aware the he would be executed. Its quite feasable, that he was acting on instructions and thought Christ had a plan. When realizing this was not true, he was so horrified he hanged him self.

    Chirst him self made distinctions and acknowledged that there were differences in categories . Just look at how often he spoke about Pharisees.

    So, why would God, ever assign collective guilt?

    For me, that is like saying all Christians are against female clerrgy as an example, because RC`s and fundementalists are.

    Then, there are his last words:

    Young's Literal Translation
    And Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they have not known what they do;' and parting his garments they cast a lot.

    That alone would have done away with any enmity between God and those that did execute him.

    I think it is finished, says it all in that regard, even if one believe that sin can be inherited.

    Just my opinion.

 

 

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