Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 133
  1. #41
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    13,847
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Khan View Post
    But that's just it. They view the exact same God that Christians claim is perfectly good, just, etc. and think that he is not. They aren't criticizing a God of their own invention; they're criticizing the same God that Christians worship/
    Not precisely. The atheist doesn't say "I hate your God, Christian." The atheist says "The God of the Bible isn't perfectly loving/good/just/etc., and I hate Him." But the atheist and the Christian actually disagree about which God the Bible demonstrates.

    That atheists view these incidents with contempt, and Christians view them favorably is evidence that both parties are judging the same God, and thus atheists are not "hating a different object than mainstream Christians."


    Atheists hate a God that is not perfectly loving/good/just. Christians believe in a God that is perfectly loving/good/just. Atheists don't hate the God that Christians believe in.

    That's called understanding and awe. It's not fear.
    You might not describe it as "fear". But words don't mean just what you want them to mean.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  2. #42
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    9,878
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Not precisely. The atheist doesn't say "I hate your God, Christian." The atheist says "The God of the Bible isn't perfectly loving/good/just/etc., and I hate Him."
    I don't think atheists pointing out God's "moral flaws" is to show their hatred of God. I think they usually do it to support the argument that God doesn't exist. If God is supposedly good and yet isn't good, then you have contradiction that supports an argument for the Christian God not existing.

  3. #43
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    13,847
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't think atheists pointing out God's "moral flaws" is to show their hatred of God.
    I didn't say they did.

    I think they usually do it to support the argument that God doesn't exist. If God is supposedly good and yet isn't good, then you have contradiction that supports an argument for the Christian God not existing.
    Right. The atheists argue that the Bible shows that God isn't good. But the point is that Christians don't agree with that. Christians believe that the God of the Bible is perfectly good. They don't think that God endorses evil things, or that He's some sort of tyrant.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  4. #44
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    9,878
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    I didn't say they did.
    Then apparently I'm misinterpreting...

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    The atheist says "The God of the Bible isn't perfectly loving/good/just/etc., and I hate Him."
    Which, to me, looks like you're saying atheists hate God for his supposed immoral deeds.

    And again, atheist are not pointing out God's supposed immorality to explain whey they hate God (I think they would tend to argue that they don't hate things they don't believe exist) but instead to support an argument that the Christian God does not exist.

  5. #45
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,368
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Is it because they are theophobiacs, and canít get past their own morbid fear or hatred of God?
    I don't think most athiests hate God. But I do believe religion has done a pretty fair job of making faith and belief in God confusing and somewhat non-workable. If something doesn't work for us, some people will move on to something that does work, at least for a while.

    Hate is a powerful emotion that tends to destroy us internally. I have found that many atheists are rather intelligent people and are well aware that hate doesn't serve them well.

    That's not to say there are some people who have intense enmity against God, but I don't think your average non-believer is in that category.
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
    Rumi

    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator
    ODN Rules

  6. #46
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,149
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Is famous scientist/atheist Richard Dawkins suppressing a belief in God?

    Is his statement "I don't believe we're put here to be comfortable" a Freudian admission that a Creator put him on this earth?

    Just moments before making this statement, Dawkins confirms that people have beliefs they won't admit to, referencing "middle of the road" people and how his book will help them admit to their atheism.

    If Dawkins is right that some people may be atheists but are psychologically unable to admit it, couldn't Dawkins himself be a theist and be psychologically unable to admit that? And couldn't supposed atheists on ODN?

    Watch the last two minutes of this video:




    To those who responded to my op asking me to show which recent statements by ODN atheists were evidence of hatred or fear of God, I answer: That was introduction to the op, not a premise. My questions stand just fine without that sentence. ReRead without that paragraph, if you like.
    Last edited by evensaul; September 19th, 2011 at 04:51 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #47
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,552
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Is famous scientist/atheist Richard Dawkins suppressing a belief in God?

    Is his statement "I don't believe we're put here to be comfortable" a Freudian admission that a Creator put him on this earth?
    Of course not.

    It's the same context I would use if I were to say that God is cruel or some such, or when someone scares me and I yell "Jesus Christ!". To the former, we're probably assuming for the sake of argument that God is real, so I just say "God is cruel" (or whatever) to save myself typing "If God is real" before every comment I make on the matter. And with the latter, it's just something to say, but I wouldn't over attribute it. Lots of women say 'God' during sex and, while I appreciate the comparison, I don't think more of it than what it is.

  8. #48
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,149
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Dio, I think that argument is incredibly weak, regardless how impressive your bedroom gymnastics may be.

    Dawkins brings up the idea of being "put here" himself, adding it to a question about being comfortable. Why? And why does he use a passive voice, positioning humans not as subject/agent but as simple noun being acted upon by another outside force. "I don't believe we're put here to be comfortable" translates to "We are put here, but not to be comfortable." His subconscious recognizes that there is a reason why we are here, and that belief comes out involuntarily in the phrase "we're put here".
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #49
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,552
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Dio, I think that argument is incredibly weak, regardless how impressive your bedroom gymnastics may be.

    Dawkins brings up the idea of being "put here" himself, adding it to a question about being comfortable. Why? And why does he use a passive voice, positioning humans not as subject/agent but as simple noun being acted upon by another outside force. "I don't believe we're put here to be comfortable" translates to "We are put here, but not to be comfortable." His subconscious recognizes that there is a reason why we are here, and that belief comes out involuntarily in the phrase "we're put here".
    Ok, you're right. He's probably a closet Christian. It probably nullifies anything he's ever said on the matter, too. Good call.

  10. #50
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,149
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    As MindTrap pointed out in post #4, sarcasm is not a rebuttal. Spam, yes, and an easy crutch for a "crotchety old man", yes. But a rebuttal, no.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  11. #51
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,552
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    As MindTrap pointed out in post #4, sarcasm is not a rebuttal. Spam, yes, and an easy fallback for a "crotchety old man", yes. But a rebuttal, no.
    Well, I that's all I got, and I'm not interested in discussing this with someone who's obviously made up their mind on the matter (Feel free to repost my post if you think it's spam, BTW. Let me know how that works out for you).

    The point is that I can only speak to things to which I have a frame of reference, and I can and often do say things relative to a God discussion that, if interpreted badly or with an agenda, could easily lead one to believe a false thing about me and/or what I believe. In this case, I don't think you're qualified to parse individual words and provide a psychological analysis of certain inflections and so on, nor am I, so all I can leave you with is my interpretation relative to what I see here and what little I know of Dawkins otherwise. If you view it differently, then more power to you. I just don't see that you can make any statement that contains any more determining power in this situation given our respective knowledge on the subject. It's really just competing opinions, not something we can objectively determine by talking at each other.

  12. #52
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,149
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Well, ... that's all I gotr...
    That's all you got? The op asks you to explain why you self-identified as a 6 on Dawkin's scale, meaning that you believe the probability of God existing is very low. Why not 50/50? Why do you profess to be so certain God does not exist? That it is a very low probability? Do you not have a logical answer you'd like to offer?

    Dawkins maintains that belief in God is a delusion. Atheists generally accept and promote this idea. If that is possible, then it is logical that atheism may be a delusion. ODN atheists may be suppressing a belief in God. If you don't think so, then explain why not.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #53
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,552
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    That's all you got?
    Yup. Sorry. I can only speak to what I have experience with, and in my experience certain things I say can be misunderstood. It happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The op asks you to explain why you self-identified as a 6 on Dawkin's scale...
    Well, I wasn't speaking to the OP. I was speaking to your comment. You know, the one I quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    ...meaning that you believe the probability of God existing is very low. Why not 50/50? Why do you profess to be so certain God does not exist? That it is a very low probability? Do you not have a logical answer you'd like to offer?

    Dawkins maintains that belief in God is a delusion. Atheists accept and promote this idea. If that is possible, then it is logical that atheism may be a delusion. ODN atheists may be suppressing a belief in God. If you don't think so, then explain why not.
    They certainly could be, but I don't know that they are, and you thinking they are isn't terribly persuasive, I'm afraid. I can only speak for myself when it comes to what I believe, and I don't believe in God as described in the Bible because its properties are absurd and self-contradictory, and because this...


    (Yemen man kissing his dead son killed in a bomb blast. Today.)

    ...is exactly the sort of thing I would expect to see if, at the heart of the universe, was nothing but complete indifference to our suffering in this world.

  14. #54
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,149
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    and because this...(Yemen man kissing his dead son killed in a bomb blast. Today.) ...is exactly the sort of thing I would expect to see if, at the heart of the universe, was nothing but complete indifference to our suffering in this world.
    Yeah, you hate that indifference, don't you.

    You hate that at the heart of the universe there is something that doesn't seem to care about you.

    And you hate it.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #55
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,552
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yeah, you hate that indifference, don't you.

    You hate that at the heart of the universe there is something that doesn't seem to care about you.

    And you hate it.
    Well, if that's how you choose to interpret it. I don't think there's anything there, meaning that the universe itself is indifferent to our suffering the same way a bowling ball is indifferent to a broken toe.

    But hey, if you think that means I hate some God I secretly believe is there, have at it. I strongly doubt I have the ability to disabuse you of that notion.

  16. #56
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    13,847
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Yup. Sorry. I can only speak to what I have experience with, and in my experience certain things I say can be misunderstood. It happens.

    Well, I wasn't speaking to the OP. I was speaking to your comment. You know, the one I quoted.

    They certainly could be, but I don't know that they are, and you thinking they are isn't terribly persuasive, I'm afraid. I can only speak for myself when it comes to what I believe, and I don't believe in God as described in the Bible because its properties are absurd and self-contradictory, and because this...


    (Yemen man kissing his dead son killed in a bomb blast. Today.)

    ...is exactly the sort of thing I would expect to see if, at the heart of the universe, was nothing but complete indifference to our suffering in this world.
    Right, but it's also exactly the sort of thing you would expect to see if, at the heart of the universe, there were an evil all-powerful unicorn that killed babies and then made their fathers kiss their bodies. Just because the probability of A given B is high, and we observe A, doesn't give us good reason to think the probability of B is high.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  17. #57
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,552
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Right, but it's also exactly the sort of thing you would expect to see if, at the heart of the universe, there were an evil all-powerful unicorn that killed babies and then made their fathers kiss their bodies.
    Well, maybe there is. But it's certainly not a case for any God the opening poster is talking about. And that person was asking why I don't believe in the God he's talking about, not an evil all-powerful unicorn that killed babies and then made their fathers kiss their bodies.

  18. #58
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,716
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Is famous scientist/atheist Richard Dawkins suppressing a belief in God?

    Is his statement "I don't believe we're put here to be comfortable" a Freudian admission that a Creator put him on this earth?

    Just moments before making this statement, Dawkins confirms that people have beliefs they won't admit to, referencing "middle of the road" people and how his book will help them admit to their atheism.

    If Dawkins is right that some people may be atheists but are psychologically unable to admit it, couldn't Dawkins himself be a theist and be psychologically unable to admit that? And couldn't supposed atheists on ODN?

    Watch the last two minutes of this video:




    To those who responded to my op asking me to show which recent statements by ODN atheists were evidence of hatred or fear of God, I answer: That was introduction to the op, not a premise. My questions stand just fine without that sentence. ReRead without that paragraph, if you like.
    Hahaha good ol' Richard forever saying something that opens him to quote mining. when will he learn?

    That said, "I don't believe we were put here to be comfortable" is completely consistent with "I don't believe we were put here at all" or "I don't believe we were put here with any purpose in mind". Btw if I made that latter statement, would you claim that it amounts to conceding that a mind was involved? :D
    Last edited by Allocutus; September 19th, 2011 at 04:23 PM.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  19. #59
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    13,847
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Well, maybe there is. But it's certainly not a case for any God the opening poster is talking about. And that person was asking why I don't believe in the God he's talking about, not an evil all-powerful unicorn that killed babies and then made their fathers kiss their bodies.
    But I don't think the reason, as you stated it, should persuade you that the Christian God doesn't exist. Your point, as I construe it, is that given that a particular form of atheism is true, we would expect to observe precisely (or very close to) our universe as it is. And as I said, I don't think that's a great reason to think that Christianity (or any form of theism that posits something like the Christian God) is false.

    Under particular forms of atheism, we would also expect to observe, say, natural phenomena that are well-behaved with regard to some set of natural "laws". And this is precisely what we observe. But under particular forms of theism, we would also expect to observe well-behaved natural phenomena (in accord with God's creation of a natural "order").

    I think that the reason that you may have relied on was actually something like this: If Christianity (or any form of theism that posits a God similar to Christianity's) were true, we would expect not to observe certain phenomena. But we do observe those phenomena. Therefore Christianity (and "similar" forms of theism, with regard to God's nature) is probably false. Which is similar but meaningfully different than the reason you gave (as I understood it).
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  20. #60
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,552
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    But I don't think the reason, as you stated it, should persuade you that the Christian God doesn't exist. Your point, as I construe it, is that given that a particular form of atheism is true, we would expect to observe precisely (or very close to) our universe as it is. And as I said, I don't think that's a great reason to think that Christianity (or any form of theism that posits something like the Christian God) is false.

    Under particular forms of atheism, we would also expect to observe, say, natural phenomena that are well-behaved with regard to some set of natural "laws". And this is precisely what we observe. But under particular forms of theism, we would also expect to observe well-behaved natural phenomena (in accord with God's creation of a natural "order").

    I think that the reason that you may have relied on was actually something like this: If Christianity (or any form of theism that posits a God similar to Christianity's) were true, we would expect not to observe certain phenomena. But we do observe those phenomena. Therefore Christianity (and "similar" forms of theism, with regard to God's nature) is probably false. Which is similar but meaningfully different than the reason you gave (as I understood it).
    Ah, I see now. That's a good distinction. I agree with that.

 

 
Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •