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  1. #121
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by BELTHAZOR
    More likely that they hope they are wrong and "someone" really is listening.
    That sounds like faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by BELTHAZOR

    Since so many people believe it to be so, who knows, why not try it in a moment of despair? Again, nothing to lose, maybe life to gain.....

    We didn't define the "crisis", but if we are talking about living or dying, a lot of people would be willing to try about anything to stay alive. Is this will to live surprising?
    Well, your describing an attitude, and a logic that isn't necessarily inferred from the data. The attitude you are describing is more in line with allowing someone else to pray for you, or praying with someone else.
    I don't think that moment in life comes in the same way that a frustration with a car problem you don't understand so you just start plugging anything in.

    The bottom line, the act is evidence of a kind of faith. What you are describing is not the common thought process of people. Otherwise they would pray to santa. After all, so many kids believe and maybe they are right?

    See, this is where all those atheist comparison really bite back.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    The same challenge applies - I am looking for something solid that an atheist would say that demonstrates hatred towards a being he doesn't believe exists.
    (Bolding and size increase mine.)

    If I may, I'd like to make a point about the wording here, because it is important to a discussion of atheistic sensibilities. This may be sidetracking...and if it is, I apologize and will start a different thread.

    There is a difference...a significant difference between:

    I "believe" no gods exist...

    ...and...

    I do not "believe" gods exist.

    The first is a statement of "belief"...much the same as "I believe a god exists", albeit in the opposite direction. It tells us what the speaker "believes."

    The latter is a statement about the absence of belief. It tells us what the speaker lacks in the way of a "belief."

    I am an Agnostic. I do not take issue with the latter...I also am absent the "belief" that a god exists. (It happens I also am absent the "belief" that no gods exist, which is why I designate myself an Agnostic.)

    So although it may sound contradictory: I do not believe gods exist...and I also do not believe no gods exist.

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  4. #123
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK APSIA
    I do not "believe" gods exist.

    The first is a statement of "belief"...much the same as "I believe a god exists", albeit in the opposite direction. It tells us what the speaker "believes."

    The latter is a statement about the absence of belief. It tells us what the speaker lacks in the way of a "belief."

    I am an Agnostic. I do not take issue with the latter...I also am absent the "belief" that a god exists. (It happens I also am absent the "belief" that no gods exist, which is why I designate myself an Agnostic.)

    So although it may sound contradictory: I do not believe gods exist...and I also do not believe no gods exist.
    There is a bank account with a million dollars.
    What do you think the options are for my beliefs as far as my ownership of that account?

    Do you think I can say, "I don't believe it is mine, but I don't not think it is mine."

    Now I will suppose that you will say, Yes you can be in that state.

    Here is the problem though, I can only act according to either the positive or negative assertion. If I thought it was mine, I would go get it. If I don't think it is mine, then I will not.
    As the action of the statement "I don't believe it is mine, but I don't not think it is mine" is the same as " I don't believe it is mine". Then In reality I am living my life in accordance with my real belief that it is not mine.

    (following me here?)
    Bottom line, people are not in a position to live in the limbo you are talking about. It isn't simply a "lack of belief" like a rock would have. We simply are not neutral on this topic, either in actual belief, or in how we live.

    finally, even if we were, then praying would violate that neutrality. It is not a neutral act, it is going to the bank and trying to cash a check to a bank account you claim a lack of belief on.

    Simply put, we act out our faiths every day. Especially in regards to God.
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  5. #124
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That sounds like faith.
    Really? It just sounds like abject desperation to me. A drowning man will grasp at anything.....

    ---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, your describing an attitude, and a logic that isn't necessarily inferred from the data. The attitude you are describing is more in line with allowing someone else to pray for you, or praying with someone else.
    Well, if you don't believe, why would someone ever praying for you be an issue, crisis or not?

    ---------- Post added at 06:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The bottom line, the act is evidence of a kind of faith. What you are describing is not the common thought process of people. Otherwise they would pray to santa. After all, so many kids believe and maybe they are right?

    See, this is where all those atheist comparison really bite back.
    Santa is not "known" to help people in times of crisis. He's a nice guy, but he only does so much. Pretty sure childhood beliefs are beyond our discussion as adults rarely seek childrens advice in a serious manner.

    Desperate people will do almost anything...

    Also, I don't think I have ever tried to defend atheism.
    Last edited by Belthazor; January 17th, 2018 at 07:50 PM.

  6. #125
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    There is a bank account with a million dollars.
    What do you think the options are for my beliefs as far as my ownership of that account?

    Do you think I can say, "I don't believe it is mine, but I don't not think it is mine."

    Now I will suppose that you will say, Yes you can be in that state.

    Here is the problem though, I can only act according to either the positive or negative assertion. If I thought it was mine, I would go get it. If I don't think it is mine, then I will not.
    As the action of the statement "I don't believe it is mine, but I don't not think it is mine" is the same as " I don't believe it is mine". Then In reality I am living my life in accordance with my real belief that it is not mine.

    (following me here?)
    Not even remotely.

    I can tell you that I, personally, do not have a belief that gods exist...and that I also do not have a belief that there are no gods.

    If you think there is something unreasonable or illogical about that...you will have to make your case a bit clearer, because I most assuredly am not "following you" here.


    Bottom line, people are not in a position to live in the limbo you are talking about.
    I have no problem with it. I know many agnostics who have no problem with it also.


    It isn't simply a "lack of belief" like a rock would have. We simply are not neutral on this topic, either in actual belief, or in how we live.
    This "belief" about whether gods (or a GOD) exists or not...is nothing more than a guess. I'd be willing to make a blind guess about the issue if you think it appropriate. I have a coin right here...and I can toss it.

    Do you think that appropriate or necessary?

    finally, even if we were, then praying would violate that neutrality. It is not a neutral act, it is going to the bank and trying to cash a check to a bank account you claim a lack of belief on.
    We can "hope" or cry "Mommy" in a crisis. And I imagine even an atheist could use the word "god" facing impending doom. But I am telling you that I do not have a belief that gods exist...and I also do not have a belief that there are no gods.

    Simply put, we act out our faiths every day. Especially in regards to God.
    Perhaps you do. That does not mean it is universal.

    ---------- Post added at 08:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Also, I don't think I have ever tried to defend atheism.
    Good move not to do so.

    Strong atheism is simply theism reversed.

    Someone who says "There are no gods" or "I believe there are no gods"...is merely expressing a guess about the true nature of the REALITY of existence...they are making a guess about whether gods (or a GOD) exist.

    Likewise, someone who says "There is a GOD (or gods)" or "I believe there is a GOD (or gods)"...almost certainly is expressing a guess about the true nature of the REALITY of existence also...they are making a guess about whether a GOD (OR gods) exist.

    They are both making guesses about the unknown...although people on both sides often try to disguise the guess using the words "believe" or "belief."

    NOTE: Some theists claim a personal revelation from some god or another. I take such claims with several grains of salt, but I may be wrong. Some theists claim they KNOW in their hearts a god exists. I suggest that is a way of saying, "I don't know", but I may be wrong.

  7. #126
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    There is a bank account with a million dollars.
    What do you think the options are for my beliefs as far as my ownership of that account?

    Do you think I can say, "I don't believe it is mine, but I don't not think it is mine."

    Now I will suppose that you will say, Yes you can be in that state.

    Here is the problem though, I can only act according to either the positive or negative assertion. If I thought it was mine, I would go get it. If I don't think it is mine, then I will not.
    As the action of the statement "I don't believe it is mine, but I don't not think it is mine" is the same as " I don't believe it is mine". Then In reality I am living my life in accordance with my real belief that it is not mine.

    (following me here?)
    Bottom line, people are not in a position to live in the limbo you are talking about. It isn't simply a "lack of belief" like a rock would have. We simply are not neutral on this topic, either in actual belief, or in how we live.

    finally, even if we were, then praying would violate that neutrality. It is not a neutral act, it is going to the bank and trying to cash a check to a bank account you claim a lack of belief on.

    Simply put, we act out our faiths every day. Especially in regards to God.
    MT, ignoring the fact, for now, that the whole atheists really being theists deep down inside has been roundly debunked, the issue with this limbo argument of yours (and the validity of agnostic atheism, as well as why believing theistic claims is not rationally justified) is quite simply demonstrated:

    Let's say you go to a fair and there's a jelly-bean jar challenge, in which you can win something by guessing the amount of jelly-beans. Someone comes up and says to you they know that there's an even number of jelly-beans in the jar. Is merely their word enough for you to believe the claim? Of course not, so you reject the claim, and don't believe that there's an even number of jelly-beans. Does that then automatically mean you believe there's an odd number of jelly-beans? Of course not, since your rational skepticism would not allow you to make such an error. That's what it means to be an agnostic atheist: neither claim has met their burden of proof, so we reject both claims and withhold belief until the burden is met for either side.

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  9. #127
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    MT, ignoring the fact, for now, that the whole atheists really being theists deep down inside has been roundly debunked, the issue with this limbo argument of yours (and the validity of agnostic atheism, as well as why believing theistic claims is not rationally justified) is quite simply demonstrated:

    Let's say you go to a fair and there's a jelly-bean jar challenge, in which you can win something by guessing the amount of jelly-beans. Someone comes up and says to you they know that there's an even number of jelly-beans in the jar. Is merely their word enough for you to believe the claim? Of course not, so you reject the claim, and don't believe that there's an even number of jelly-beans. Does that then automatically mean you believe there's an odd number of jelly-beans? Of course not, since your rational skepticism would not allow you to make such an error. That's what it means to be an agnostic atheist: neither claim has met their burden of proof, so we reject both claims and withhold belief until the burden is met for either side.
    But I can live my life consistently with not knowing the number of Jelly beans and not having an opinion on it. That is what my argument centered around. The fact that a person can't live their lives consistently, and specifically that praying is akin to making a decision to say there are an even number of beans.

    I understand your point, your claiming that one can live their life in a neutral manner towards the claim. My argument is that you can not.
    You will either turn around and live your life as though God does exist, or live your life as though he does not. Jelly beans simply don't compare to a necessary being.

    That is why my example is more appropriate. The number of jelly beans don't effect your life directly. However your bank account does. (at least better than your example)


    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    Not even remotely.

    I can tell you that I, personally, do not have a belief that gods exist...and that I also do not have a belief that there are no gods.

    If you think there is something unreasonable or illogical about that...you will have to make your case a bit clearer, because I most assuredly am not "following you" here.
    Right, thanks for the feedback, I'll try to put it another way.

    Basically, your claiming to be neutral in regards to a claim that neutrality is not logically possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    This "belief" about whether gods (or a GOD) exists or not...is nothing more than a guess. I'd be willing to make a blind guess about the issue if you think it appropriate. I have a coin right here...and I can toss it.

    Do you think that appropriate or necessary?
    Beliefs can be guesses. It just so happens to be a guess that is relevant to the way we live our life.

    Such that. If you had the belief that God exists, would you live your life differently?
    If you had the belife that God didn't exist, would you live your life differently?
    For an agnostic the answer to the first is yes to he first, and no to the second. Thus they are living their lives
    in accordance with their guess on the second, while claiming neutrality.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    We can "hope" or cry "Mommy" in a crisis. And I imagine even an atheist could use the word "god" facing impending doom. But I am telling you that I do not have a belief that gods exist...and I also do not have a belief that there are no gods.
    "I watched a man who said their was no God, but I listened as they died and I knew that they had lied." Line of a poem I can't remember the reference.

    The point is, that people don't cry out for random things, they cry out for what they believe in.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    Perhaps you do. That does not mean it is universal.
    Your saying you do not live out your the beliefs you think are true?
    Then I say, you don't really believe them to be true.

    It is in fact universal.
    Evidenced by the absurdity of the contrary.
    To serve man.

  10. #128
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Such that. If you had the belief that God exists, would you live your life differently?
    I guess that would really depend on what God existed wouldn't it!!?????

    ---------- Post added at 06:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    If you had the belife that God didn't exist, would you live your life differently?
    At the moment no. Since I don't what, if any, God exists, there is no way of knowing what I "should do", so I just do the best I can.

    I think a large percentage of people commonly live day to day this way (for instance, because I know much more about the Bible than most Christians I talk to and I am not a follower of this religion.....(not people on ODN of course. People here can be tenacious).

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  12. #129
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by BELTHAZOR
    I guess that would really depend on what God existed wouldn't it!!?????
    I don't see how that effects my point. Mine is about the incoherence of neutrality on this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by BELTHAZOR
    At the moment no. Since I don't what, if any, God exists, there is no way of knowing what I "should do", so I just do the best I can.

    I think a large percentage of people commonly live day to day this way (for instance, because I know much more about the Bible than most Christians I talk to and I am not a follower of this religion.....(not people on ODN of course. People here can be tenacious).
    Indeed, but that is not neutrality.
    You may be open to change, but your not neutral.

    (note, couldn't give your rep for answering direct questions.. but you deserve it)
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Right, thanks for the feedback, I'll try to put it another way.

    Basically, your claiming to be neutral in regards to a claim that neutrality is not logically possible.
    I have not used that term "neutral" so I am not sure how you derive this.

    With regard to the existence of gods...here is my position:

    Some people "believe" there are gods (or is a GOD). I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE. I do not believe there are gods.

    Some people "believe" there are no gods. I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE. I do not believe there are no gods.

    So my position is: I do not believe there are gods and I do not believe there are no gods.


    Beliefs can be guesses. It just so happens to be a guess that is relevant to the way we live our life.
    Sometimes...although not necessarily always so. (And here is where I think we are having our difference.)

    Such that. If you had the belief that God exists, would you live your life differently?
    If you had the belife that God didn't exist, would you live your life differently?
    I can tell you that I do not have a belief that GOD exists...and I also do not have a belief that no gods exist. I have neither of those "beliefs"...and I live a fine life. I try to be a decent person by standards I've developed over the years (part of which were spent as a practicing Catholic) and by other standards that I have learned by interactions with other people.

    For an agnostic the answer to the first is yes to he first, and no to the second. Thus they are living their lives
    in accordance with their guess on the second, while claiming neutrality.
    Please stop using "neutrality" and quote my words and ask me about them. I see no contradictions in what I have actually said .


    "I watched a man who said their was no God, but I listened as they died and I knew that they had lied." Line of a poem I can't remember the reference.
    The person who wrote the poem was a fool...or was mistaken...or just happened to see one instance of one person who showed signs of being a liar.

    The point is, that people don't cry out for random things, they cry out for what they believe in.
    If I miss a two foot putt, I often call out for Jesus H. Christ. I know Jesus H. Christ is not part of my foursome...but I cry out anyway. People do cry out for strange reasons, MindTrap.


    Your saying you do not live out your the beliefs you think are true?
    What does that mean? Give me an example of what you mean here.


    Then I say, you don't really believe them to be true.
    What does that mean? Give me an example of what you mean here.

    It is in fact universal.
    Evidenced by the absurdity of the contrary.
    What does that mean? Give me an example of what you mean here.

  14. #131
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    But I can live my life consistently with not knowing the number of Jelly beans and not having an opinion on it.
    And many folks live their lives without knowing whether some deity exists and have no opinion on it. Does everyone know whether "Deity X" of "Some Ancient Tribe" exists or do they have an opinion on it? No, we all live our lives consistently without any knowledge or opinion of that specific deity as well as many others.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That is what my argument centered around. The fact that a person can't live their lives consistently, and specifically that praying is akin to making a decision to say there are an even number of beans.
    Again, the atheists being deep down theists thing has been roundly debunked. Just because someone might pray to a deity in a crisis doesn't mean or prove what you'd like it to. In fact, the arbitrary nature of the specific deity that they might pray to usually aligning with the religion they've been most exposed to further shows why this is mundane. If a person were brought up in a society where folks believed that even numbers of beans held some spiritual significance, they'd be drawn to accepting such a belief if they were the kind of person whose intellectual integrity is more likely to fail when pressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You will either turn around and live your life as though God does exist, or live your life as though he does not. Jelly beans simply don't compare to a necessary being.
    Or you will live your life as though neither side has met their burden of proof, and go about your day being a rational person dealing with reality. Since neither side has met their burden, I choose to live my life in that way. Your failure to grasp this and assertion that the principle behind the jelly-beans example somehow doesn't apply to deities indicates a clear flaw in your ability to rationally consider the principles behind skepticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That is why my example is more appropriate. The number of jelly beans don't effect your life directly. However your bank account does. (at least better than your example)
    Again, the principle you fail to grasp is that without evidence either way, neither proposition should affect your life directly, regardless of whether it's about jelly-beans, bank accounts, or deities.

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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    There you go again, Frank, assuming I've ever disagreed with you about anything worthwhile...


    ---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 AM ----------

    Allow me to take this light moment to ask a question of MindTrap:

    If you suddenly lost your "belief" in your GOD...

    ...how do you suppose you would live your life differently?

    Would you murder people? Cheat on your wife? Steal? Take a leak in the streets? Hate more people?

    How would you live your life differently?

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  17. #133
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't see how that effects my point. Mine is about the incoherence of neutrality on this issue.
    Huh? How can it not!?!????

    Different God's expect different behavior, so DEFINATELY, if I believed in a particular God, I would behave differently (unless he really liked the way I am now, then I wouldn't have to change at all and I could still believe

    ---------- Post added at 06:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Indeed, but that is not neutrality.
    You may be open to change, but your not neutral.
    Did I say I was "neutral"???

    I am sure I am not right about EVERYTHING! I would appreciate someone who actually knows (on a given subject) telling me when I am being stupid. I am open to new truth I am currently unaware of

    ---------- Post added at 06:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    (note, couldn't give your rep for answering direct questions.. but you deserve it)
    I appreciate your comments a lot. I often don't agree with you, but am always interested in your opinion
    Actually, that I don't agree is why I am interested !

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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    The human mind is designed to see patterns ...
    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...ght?highlight=

    A freudian slip proves Sig believes in God and Intelligent Design. Looks like a theophobiac to me.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...ght?highlight=

    A freudian slip proves Sig believes in God and Intelligent Design. Looks like a theophobiac to me.
    Funny, though I would guess Sig meant something a bit like "designed by evolution" not a deity.

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  22. #136
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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Funny, though I would guess Sig meant something a bit like "designed by evolution" not a deity.
    Gold star for you sir.

    A freudian slip proves Sig believes in God and Intelligent Design
    I don't believe in God. Especially not the Christian god or any other man-made religious view of god. I'm ok with a Pantheist view of God, the idea that the universe itself is the supreme power that exists and it's "will" is manifest in the reality that is all around us. I don't think human beings are some pinacle ultimate achievement or the reason for the rest of the universe to exist. A deist proposal of God as also acceptible to me, but I find it a little less meaningfull than a pantheist conception.

    The design of the mind is one that happens by the brute laws of nature. If a being is to survive, then an adaptation that increases survivability is going to find expression sooner or later. The predictive mind is a very useful survival tool. And the abstract predictive mind, which is what we seem to specilze in, has proven incredibly effective at ensuring our survival. (and ironically, perhaps endangering it somewhat).

    But Balthazor is correct, the design, in this case, is the product of the natural order of the universe. Now, if that order was set down by some god or not, I can't say. I can only say that the Gods that humans tend to go on about are pretty silly and unfounded by evidence in my view. The idea that God casts magic spells to create miscarrages or that he really likes the smell of burnt lamb meat is all rather rediculous for a cosmic power that can create a universe from nothignness.

    I don't hate God, I just think the people that look down on me for not believing such rubbish are obnoxious and ridiculous. If they keep it to themselves and don't get into my business, then I have no problem with them, in fact, I enjoy their art and architecture, so good on them. But when they insist on trying to point out how stupid I am, I respond in turn with the reasons I think they are wasting their lives believing in fictive legends.

    So it isn't God, it's you, Evensual.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    the design, in this case, is the product of the natural order of the universe...
    Pseudo scientific hogwash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    So it isn't God, it's you, Evensual.
    This is an example of transference.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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