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  1. #1
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    The Conspiracy of The Christ

    The following is taken from a discussion i recently had concerning the validity of Christ's and Christianity's claim of him as the Messiah, pointing out key aspects conflicting the prophecies surrounding Jesus, or obvious contradictions of the man himself. For the purposes of this, We will concede Jesus is a historical figure, and not a metaphysical entity or complete fallacy, and that he did in fact live his life, based on what the bible teaches us about him.

    I however submit this as evidence supporting my argument that Jesus was not our Messiah, and therefor Christianity cannot be the true religion, if one exists at all.

    It is long, i apologize. However each individual point adds up to an overwhelming body of evidence supporting Jesus was not the Messiah. At the end there is a citation of a website where more can be found. Enjoy.

    Originally posted by Che - Hero of the Revolution on the site http://www.sodahead.com/

    Most evidence points to Jesus being a fake.

    According to Jesusí admissions, as well as the Bibleís prophecies, Jesus of Nazareth could not have been the Messiah. This of course, would invalidate Christianity as we know it. The compilation presented here shall be split in three sections. The first shall be the biblical prophecies that were made in order to identify the messiah, which Jesus does not fulfill. The second shall be the prophecies that Christians use to say that Jesus was the Messiah, yet they clearly fail. The third set shall be the prophecies and statements Jesus made yet they are false and have never came true.

    Prophecies to Identify the Messiah, Which Jesus Does Not Fulfill:

    1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.

    2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

    3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.

    Prophecies Christians Use to Verify Jesus as the Messiah, Yet Clearly Fail:

    4) The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

    5) Matthew (Matthew 2:17-18) quotes Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:15), claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herodís alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (Jeremiah 31:16-17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herodís massacre.

    6) John 19:33 says that during Jesusí crucifixion, the soldiers didnít break his legs because he was already dead. Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12 & Psalm 34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse Psalm 34:19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person.

    7) "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." Hosea 11:1. Matthew (Matthew 2:15) claims that the flight of Jesusí family to Egypt is a fulfillment of this verse. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all. It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse ("Out of Egypt I have called my son").

    8) "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2 The gospel of Matthew (Matthew 2:5-6) claims that Jesusí birth in Bethlehem fulfils this prophecy. But this is unlikely for two reasons.

    A) "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Calebís second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chronicles 2:18, 2:50-52 & 4:4).

    B) The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did. It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Matthew 2:6 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make this verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.

    Statements Jesus Made Which Are False:

    9) Jesus in John 14:12 & Mark 16:17-18 said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me, the works that I do shall he also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." This implies that Jesusí true followers should be able to routinely perform the following tricks: 1) cast out devils, 2) speak in tongues, 3) take up serpents, 4) drink poisons without harm, and 5) cure the sick by touching them and MANY other of Jesusí "works". Curiously I have yet to see a Christian that can do any of the above on demand.

    10) In John 14:13-14 Jesus stated: "And whatsoever ye ask in my name I do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it." In reality, millions of people have made millions of requests in Jesusí name and failed to receive satisfaction. This promise or prophecy has failed completely.

    11) Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection (1 Corinthian 15:14-17). Yet Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights. Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only one and a half days, so he could not have been the messiah by his own and Paulís admission.

    12) Jesusí prophecy in John 13:38 ("The **** shall not crow, till thou [Peter] hast denied me three times") is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the **** crowed after the first denial, not the third.

    13) In Mark 10:19 Jesus said: "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother." Jesus needs to re-read the Ten Commandments. There is no Old Testament commandment against defrauding. The only relevant statement about defrauding is in Leviticus 19:13 , which says : "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor." This is an OT law, but is not listed with the Ten Commandments. Surely, if Jesus was god incarnate he would know the commandments.

    14) "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). If Jesus is in heaven, how can he be down on earth speaking? Moreover, according to 2 Kings 2:11 ("and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven") Jesus was not the only person to ascend into heaven, nor was he the first. Elijah preceded him and apparently Enoch did also ("And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him"--Genesis 5:24).

    15) In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." This obviously has to be false, for Jesus was supposed to lay dead in the tomb for three days following his crucifixion.

    1 6) Jesus says : "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy" (Matthew 5:43). This statement does not exist in the OT either. In fact, Proverbs 24:17 says, "Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumblethÖ"

    17) Jesus is reported to say: "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it" (Luke 16:16). Certainly every man is not pressing to enter the kingdom of God. The very fact that I am an atheist (one third of the worldís population does not believe in a god) proves this verse to be false.

    18) "Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?" (Matthew 12:5) Nowhere does the OT state that the priests in the temple profaned the Sabbath and were considered blameless.

    19) "Yea; have ye never read, 'Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise'" (Matthew 21:16). Jesus is quoting Psalm 8:2, which says, "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemiesÖ". "Perfect praise" has little to do with "ordaining strength because of thine enemies." Another misquotation!

    20) "But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him" (Mark 9:13). There are no prophecies in the OT of things that were to happen to Elijah.

    Jesus, in all his "God incarnate" wisdom, contradicts himself:

    21) Jesus consistently contradicts himself concerning his Godly status. "I and my father are one." (John 14:28) Also see Philippians 2:5-6 Those verses lead us to believe that he is a part of the trinity and equal to his father being a manifestation of him. Yet, Jesus also made many statements that deny he is the perfect men, much less God incarnate. Take the following for example: "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God" (Matthew 19:17). "My father if greater then I." (John 14:28) Also see Matthew 24:26 Clearly, Jesus is denouncing the possibility of him being the Messiah in those three verses.

    22) Jesus said, "whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" (Matthew 5:22). Yet, he himself did so repeatedly, as Matthew 23:17-19 and Luke 11:40 & 12:20 show. Clearly Jesus should be in danger of hell too?

    23) Does Jesus support peace, or war? Matthew 5:39 "Resist not evil, but whoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Also note Matthew 6:38-42 & 26:52 where Jesus teaches non-resistance, Non-violence. Now read (Luke 22:36-37) Where Jesus commands people to take arms for a coming conflict. (John 2:15) Jesus uses a whip to physically drive people out of the temple.

    24) Matthew 15:24 Jesus said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of lsrael,". This would of course mean that he is here only to save the Jews. The scriptures repeatedly back up this notion that Christ is savior to the Jews and not the gentiles (see Romans 16:17, Revelations 14:3-4 & John 10). The contradiction lies in what Jesus later tells his followers: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" (Matthew 28:19).

    25) Can we hate our kindred? Luke 14:26 Jesus says "If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brother, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he can not be my disciple." John 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer." Also see Ephesians 6:22, 5:25, & Matthew 15:4

    26) Even many of the staunchest defenders of Jesus admit that his comment in Matthew 10:34 ("I came not to send peace but a sword") contradicts verses such as Matthew 26:52 ("Put up again thy sword into his place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword").

    27) Deuteronomy 24:1 & 21:10-14 all say that divorce is allowed for the simple reason if a "man no longer delighteth in his wife". Yet Jesus comes along and breaks his fatherís law by saying in Matthew 5:32 that adultery is the only way one can be divorced.

    28) In Mark 8:35 Jesus said: "...but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospelís the same shall save it." How could Jesus have said this when there was no gospel when he lived? The gospel did not appear until after his death.

    29) Matthew 6:13 Jesus recites a revised prayer and states, "Donít bring us into temptation." God is the cause of everything, even Satan. God has been leading people into temptation since the Garden of Eden. Otherwise, the trees of life and knowledge would have never been there.

    30) Matthew 12:1-8 Jesus thinks itís okay to break his fatherís laws, by breaking the Sabbath day. He states that he is basically exempt for such fiascoes and that he is Master of the Sabbath.

    31) John 3:17 Jesus contradicts himself when he says, "God didnít send his son into the world to condemn it, but to save it." Jesus seems to forget his own stories.

    32) James 4:3 If your prayers are not answered, itís your own damned fault. This is in direct contradiction to where Jesus says "seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be known to you".

    33) "If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is true" John 8:14, "If I bear witness of myself it is not true." John 5:31

    34) "I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20), versus "For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always" (Matthew 26:11 , Mark 14:7, John 12:8) and "Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am thither ye cannot come" (John 7:34). Is this the kind of friend one can rely on?

    35) "And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her" (Mark 10:11 & Luke 6:18), versus "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery" (Matthew 19:9). In the book of Matthew, Jesus said a man could put away his wife if one factor-- fornication--is involved. In Mark and Luke he allowed no exceptions.

    36) Jesus is quoted: "Judge not, and ye shall be not judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven" (Luke 6:37 & Matthew 7:1), versus "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment"(John 7:24). Jesus stated men are not to judge but, then, allowed it under certain conditions. As in the case of divorce, he canít seem to formulate a consistent policy.

    37) "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matthew 27:46, (also note the time before crucification where Jesus prays for the "cup to passeth over me") versus "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ĎFather, save me from this hour?í No, for this purpose I have come to this hour" (John 12:27 RSV). Jesus canít seem to decide whether or not he wants to die. One moment he is willing; the next he isnít.

    38) In Luke 23:30 ("Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, fall on us, and to the hills, cover us") Jesus quoted Hosea 10:8 ("...and they shall say to the mountains, cover us; and to the hills, fall on us"). And, like Paul, he often quoted inaccurately. In this instance, he confused mountains with hills.

    39) "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they know him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist" (Matthew 17:11-13). John the Baptist was beheaded, but Jesus was not. And what did John the Baptist restore? Nothing!

    40) We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18 & 36) yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matthew 19:16-18 (saving by works)-if he wanted eternal life.

    41) In Luke 12:4 Jesus told his followers to "Be not afraid of them that kill the body." But Matthew 12:14-16, John 7:1, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54, & Mark 1:45 show that Jesus consistently feared death. Jesus went out of his way to hide, run, and attempt escape from the Roman and Jewish authorities.

    42) Matthew 5:28 says to sin in "your heart" is considered a sin in itself. The messiah is supposed to be God incarnate, not able to sin, yet in Matthew 4:5 & Luke 4:5-9, Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert, which is sinning in his heart. Jesus also took upon all the sins of the world during his crucifixion, so how can it be said that "Jesus was the perfect man without sin"? This would lead one to believe he was not the Messiah.

    43) Jesus told us to "Love your enemies; bless them that curse you," but ignored his own advice by repeatedly denouncing his opposition. Matthew 23:17 ("Ye fools and blind"), Matthew 12:34 ("0 generation of vipers"), and Matthew 23:27 (". . . hypocrites . . . ye are like unto whited sepulchres. . .") are excellent examples of hypocrisy.

    44) Did the people of Jesusí generation see any signs? (Matthew 12:38-40) Jesus announced that no signs would be given to that generation except the Resurrection itself. (Mark 8:12-13) Jesus announced that no signs would be given to that generation. (Mark 16:20) They went out preaching, and the Lord confirmed the word through accompanying signs. (John 20:30) Jesus provided many wonders and signs. (Acts 2:22) Jesus provided many wonders and signs. (Acts 5:12 & 8:13) many signs and wonders were done through the apostles.

    45) Jesus commands the disciples to go into Galilee immediately after the resurrection. Matthew 28:10 Jesus commands the disciples to "tarry in Jerusalem" immediately after the resurrection.

    46) Matthew 28:18 & John 3:35 both tell that Jesus said he could do anything. Yet Mark 6:5 says Jesus was not all powerful.

    47) Jesus says in Luke 2:13-14 that he came to bring peace on earth. Matthew 10:34 Jesus back peddles and says he did not come to bring peace on earth.

    48) Did Christ receive testimony from man? "Ye sent unto John and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man." John 5:33-34 "And ye shall also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning." John 15:27

    49) Christ laid down his life for his friends. John 15:13 & 10:11 Christ laid down his life for his enemies. Romans 5:10

    50) Deuteronomy 23:2 says that bastards can not attend church unto the tenth generation. If Jesus was spawned by Mary and Jehovah as the Bible claims then he is technically a bastard and should not be the leader of the church.

    More: http://www.evilbible.com/jesus_false.htm
    end of original sodahead post by Che

    How can anyone claim the legitimacy of Christianity as the true religion, and Christ as the Messiah in the face of this? It is after all not based upon any outside philosophy or thought, but instead a hard look at the text's of the subject it's self.

    Questions, concerns, rebuttals?
    If Jesus came back, he might not want to see so many crosses...

  2. #2
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    Re: The Conspiracy of The Christ

    This post is too long for me to try to respond to every point but I will try to answer some of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Met7797 View Post
    The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.
    The genealogy in Matthew says that Joseph was the son of Jacob but the one in Luke says that he was the son of Heli. How is this possible? The most reasonable explanation is that he was regarded as the son of Heli because he married Heli's daughter. In other words Luke's genealogy is that of Mary, and it shows that she was a descendant of David through his son Nathan.

    Matthew's genealogy shows that Joseph was descended from David through Solomon and so was in the line of succession for the throne. If David's line had remained in power Josheph would have been king. Although he wasn't the biological father of Jesus he was his legal father because he was married to Mary when Jesus was born. This meant that Jesus was the heir to the throne of Israel.

    Here is a good place to find more information about the two genealogies:

    http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/m...w-1-and-luke-3

    The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.
    Jesus is going to return to assume his rightful role as Israel's ruler. Sometimes a single prophecy will include references to both his first and second comings so that part of it has already been fulfilled and part will be fulfilled when he returns.

    John 19:33 says that during Jesusí crucifixion, the soldiers didnít break his legs because he was already dead. Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12 & Psalm 34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse Psalm 34:19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person.
    The Passover served two purposes. It reminded the Jews of how they had been delivered from slavery in Egypt and it was also a picture of how Jesus would die for sin so that we can all be delivered from our slavery to sin. The command not to break the bones of the lamb was also a prophecy of the fact that the bones of Jesus wouldn't be broken.

    Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection (1 Corinthian 15:14-17). Yet Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights. Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only one and a half days, so he could not have been the messiah by his own and Paulís admission.
    But was the crucifixion really on Friday? It could have been on Wednesday. I have just started a thread showing the reason for this:

    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post460816

    In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." This obviously has to be false, for Jesus was supposed to lay dead in the tomb for three days following his crucifixion.
    It was only his body that was in the tomb.

    We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18 & 36) yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matthew 19:16-18 (saving by works)-if he wanted eternal life.
    What he told the man was that if he kept all of the commandments he would have eternal life, and that is true. But in fact neither he nor anyone else is capable of keeping all of the commandments. His response to the man was to show him that he didn't meet God's standards.

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    Re: The Conspiracy of The Christ

    There is one more thing I would like to add to what I said above. You included a link to a site that is dedicated to proving the Bible false. Have you ever visited sites that support the Bible to see if they have answers to the charges you have made? If you ever decide to check out the Christian point of view here is a good site:

    http://biblecommenter.com/

    It contains several online commentaries and you can look up the passages you cited in your post to see how Christians interpret them.

    Another good site is:

    http://carm.org/

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    Re: The Conspiracy of The Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    The Passover served two purposes. It reminded the Jews of how they had been delivered from slavery in Egypt and it was also a picture of how Jesus would die for sin so that we can all be delivered from our slavery to sin. The command not to break the bones of the lamb was also a prophecy of the fact that the bones of Jesus wouldn't be broken.
    One thing that Christians often overlook is that Jesus' bones were broken. Though his legs were not broken, driving spikes through his feet would have broken the metatarsals.

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    Re: The Conspiracy of The Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by khan
    One thing that Christians often overlook is that Jesus' bones were broken. Though his legs were not broken, driving spikes through his feet would have broken the metatarsals.
    Your saying it is impossible to nail someone in the feet without breaking the metatarsals? Going between them would still break them?

    If so, support please.

    Also, if it were nailed through the heel of the foot. (as that was one way they did it) Do you also consider that "broken" as well?

    I wouldn't personally, as a carpenter I don't consider wood that I nail through "broken". Example

    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    In 1968, archaeologists discovered at Giv'at ha-Mivtar in northeast Jerusalem the remains of one Jehohanan, who had been crucified in the 1st century. The remains included a heel bone with a nail driven through it from the side. The tip of the nail was bent, perhaps because of striking a knot in the upright beam, which prevented it being extracted from the foot. A first inaccurate account of the length of the nail led some to believe that it had been driven through both heels, suggesting that the man had been placed in a sort of sidesaddle position, but the true length of the nail, 11.5 centimetres (4.53 inches), suggests instead that in this case of crucifixion the heels were nailed to opposite sides of the upright http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Nail_placement
    If the bone was broken... they could have gotten the nail out.
    To serve man.

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    Re: The Conspiracy of The Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by Met7797 View Post
    1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.
    You cannot honestly state that Jesus was not the messiah simply because it was not recorded in the bible that he was literally called Immanuel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Met7797 View Post
    3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.
    Once again you cannot make claims like this based on information not being recorded. Also, the passage is NOT, in fact, referring to Jewish countries being destroyed but rather about enemies of Ahaz being destroyed before Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Met7797 View Post
    4) The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.
    This passage is not to be read literally. The passage does not display him as a military king but rather uses military related metaphors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Met7797 View Post
    6) John 19:33 says that during Jesus’ crucifixion, the soldiers didn’t break his legs because he was already dead. Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12 & Psalm 34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse Psalm 34:19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person.
    Exodus 12:46 is giving instructions for the Passover. It says that the sacrifice should not have any broken bones. Jesus was the sacrifice.
    Numbers 9:12 is the same situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Met7797 View Post
    9) Jesus in John 14:12 & Mark 16:17-18 said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me, the works that I do shall he also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." This implies that Jesus’ true followers should be able to routinely perform the following tricks: 1) cast out devils, 2) speak in tongues, 3) take up serpents, 4) drink poisons without harm, and 5) cure the sick by touching them and MANY other of Jesus’ "works". Curiously I have yet to see a Christian that can do any of the above on demand.
    All of the works performed by Jesus were for a specific and higher purpose and were never meant to be special powers that all Christians are gifted with. Your lack of experience does not prove that these miracles are impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Met7797 View Post
    10) In John 14:13-14 Jesus stated: "And whatsoever ye ask in my name I do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it." In reality, millions of people have made millions of requests in Jesus’ name and failed to receive satisfaction. This promise or prophecy has failed completely.
    The passage states that if one were to ask "in my name", they would receive what ever it is they are asking for. In my name doesn't necessarily mean that you simply say in Jesus name at the end of your prayer. It means that if what you are praying for is specifically for God's higher purpose, then your prayer will be answered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Met7797 View Post
    11) Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection (1 Corinthian 15:14-17). Yet Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights. Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only one and a half days, so he could not have been the messiah by his own and Paul’s admission.
    There is no proof that Jesus literally died on a Friday has simply become the traditional day for people to remember his death. The writer John is using old Hebrew time and Mark is using Roman time. Both of which are different than our modern solar time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Met7797 View Post
    12) Jesus’ prophecy in John 13:38 ("The **** shall not crow, till thou [Peter] hast denied me three times") is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the **** crowed after the first denial, not the third.
    Mark 14:30 clearly states that "Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny me three times."
    The authors of the gospels simply recorded Jesus differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Met7797 View Post
    13) In Mark 10:19 Jesus said: "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother." Jesus needs to re-read the Ten Commandments. There is no Old Testament commandment against defrauding. The only relevant statement about defrauding is in Leviticus 19:13 , which says : "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor." This is an OT law, but is not listed with the Ten Commandments. Surely, if Jesus was god incarnate he would know the commandments.
    Jesus says in that passage "You know the commandments" and then lists those laws. Jesus didn't say "You know the ten commandments." The commandments could be referring to any old testament law. Also defrauding is simply acquiring money illegally, which is stealing, which, though already stated, is one of the ten commandments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Met7797 View Post
    14) "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). If Jesus is in heaven, how can he be down on earth speaking? Moreover, according to 2 Kings 2:11 ("and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven") Jesus was not the only person to ascend into heaven, nor was he the first. Elijah preceded him and apparently Enoch did also ("And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him"--Genesis 5:24).
    The passage could easily mean that no one, by their own will or power, has gone to heaven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Met7797 View Post
    15) In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." This obviously has to be false, for Jesus was supposed to lay dead in the tomb for three days following his crucifixion.
    I'm quite certain that you are right, Jesus' body did not ascend to heaven but there is no reason why his spirit could not have.

    I need a break... Fifty points is hard to debate.
    Last edited by BigBuluga; April 23rd, 2011 at 09:38 PM. Reason: Grammatical Errors
    "The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time."
    ó Mark Twain

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    Re: The Conspiracy of The Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Your saying it is impossible to nail someone in the feet without breaking the metatarsals? Going between them would still break them?

    If so, support please.

    Also, if it were nailed through the heel of the foot. (as that was one way they did it) Do you also consider that "broken" as well?

    I wouldn't personally, as a carpenter I don't consider wood that I nail through "broken". Example
    A heel bone with a nail driven through it is broken. A part of it was broken when the nail was driven through.

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    Re: The Conspiracy of The Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by KHAN
    A heel bone with a nail driven through it is broken. A part of it was broken when the nail was driven through.
    Then the debate is semantics.
    As a carpenter, I have never considered a board with a nail through it broken.
    To serve man.

 

 

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