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Thread: Flight AA 93

  1. #1
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    Flight AA 93

    I wanted to pose this question to the site:

    Do you think American Airlines Flight 93 was shot down? This is the airliner that crashed into Pennsylvania on 9/11. Any thoughts? I am exhausted right now, otherwise I would research the question. Regardless of what the net says, though, I am interested to hear what you all think.

    Also-

    What do you think of shooting an airliner down in such instances? Are there any of you who are rabidly against it? Perhaps only against it if you are ON the plane in question?
    We took risks. We knew we took them. Things have come out against us. We have no cause for complaint. Scott, found in his diary after the party froze in Antarctica

  2. #2
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    Re: Flight AA 93

    "I'll take Donald Rumsfeld tries to keep his story straight for 500, Alex."

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/27/rum...t93/index.html

    WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A comment Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld made during a Christmas Eve address to U.S. troops in Baghdad has sparked new conspiracy theories about the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

    In the speech, Rumsfeld made a passing reference to United Airlines Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania after passengers attempted to stop al Qaeda hijackers.

    But in his remarks, Rumsfeld referred to the "the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania."

  3. #3
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    Re: Flight AA 93

    It was obviously shot down (something about the spread of the debris), and it was obviously heading towards the Three Mile Island nuclear power plant (tragectory wise).

    But you would never hear that in the news...
    Last edited by RTShatto; January 26th, 2005 at 08:56 AM.
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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Quote Originally Posted by PallidaMors
    What do you think of shooting an airliner down in such instances? Are there any of you who are rabidly against it? Perhaps only against it if you are ON the plane in question?
    Whether I was on it or not, I would agree with an airliner being shot down if it was determined that there was a very good chance that the hijacked plane would cause mass casualty. (Like a 9/11-or-worse-type scenario.) Even though not having ANY deaths would be preferred, of course, it would be better for an hundred or so to die than for thousands, or even millions.

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Unless there is some sort of evidence that it was shot down, then I must assume that Rumsfeld's comment was a mistake. Every report I have read or heard describes the plane crashing during the altercation between the hijackers and the passengers, because no one was able to fly it properly during a battle (obviously).

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    Unless there is some sort of evidence that it was shot down, then I must assume that Rumsfeld's comment was a mistake. Every report I have read or heard describes the plane crashing during the altercation between the hijackers and the passengers, because no one was able to fly it properly during a battle (obviously).
    Then it would have been the pilots vs. the hijackers if nobody was flying, or the passengers failed to kill the terrorists before the terrorists killed the pilots. A number of possible scenarios occurred, but we are limited by the fact that someone crashed the plane, or nobody was left to pilot the plane.

    If America was like Israel, the box-cutter incident would never have occurred because everyone would be militarily trained and most likely know Krav Maga. The moral of the story? Learn martial arts and your odds against some thug with a primitive weapon are substantially better. Also note the psychological expectation that "someone else will take care of the problem" most likely meant there were only a few "John Waynes" who tried to stop the terrorists, and therefore were not in time. A matter of lack of confidence, and irresponsibility.

    So we can blame the success of 9-11 on the incompetence of those passengers and crew just as much as we can on the terrorists whose shoddy plot succeeded.
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    So we can blame the success of 9-11 on the incompetence of those passengers and crew just as much as we can on the terrorists whose shoddy plot succeeded.
    Well, this is going a bit too far, and I'm sure victims' families would not appreciate it. We have to keep in mind that this was a new situation for many people, including those on the planes...it is not necessarily their fault if they didn't know exactly what to do, or they could have been paralyzed by fear to the point that maybe they couldn't think of the best solution. We also have to think that if Al Queda hadn't hashed the plot in the first place, the "competence" of innocent civilians wouldn't have had to been tested.

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    So we can blame the success of 9-11 on the incompetence of those passengers and crew just as much as we can on the terrorists whose shoddy plot succeeded.
    Oh come on, you expect every passenger on an airplane to know martial arts, and to be cool enough under pressure to take on intimidating hijackers with weapons? It's because of the unusual bravery of these passangers that the plane crashed short of its target, which was likely either the White House or the Capitol. There were women and children and elderly and sick people on that plane. So out of the limited number of healthy men of a relatively young age, I'd say they performed quite courageously in a very unexpected and terrifying situation.
    Last edited by KevinBrowning; January 26th, 2005 at 08:16 PM.

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Quote Originally Posted by DM
    Well, this is going a bit too far, and I'm sure victims' families would not appreciate it. We have to keep in mind that this was a new situation for many people, including those on the planes...it is not necessarily their fault if they didn't know exactly what to do, or they could have been paralyzed by fear to the point that maybe they couldn't think of the best solution. We also have to think that if Al Queda hadn't hashed the plot in the first place, the "competence" of innocent civilians wouldn't have had to been tested.
    Ok, a couple questions:
    1) Is it ever acceptable to not know what to do?
    2) Is it ever acceptable to be "paralyzed by fear?"
    3) Is it excusable to allow yourself and others to suffer because of the intentions of others?
    When people die, it seems a little frivolous to care if people get offended about reasons why...
    Quote Originally Posted by KB
    Oh come on, you expect every passanger on an airplane to know martial arts, and to be cool enough under pressure to take on intimidating hijackers with weapons? It's because of the unusual bravery of these passangers that the plane crashed short of its target, which was likely either the White House or the Capitol. There were women and children and elderly and sick people on that plane. So out of the limited number of healthy men of a relatively young age, I'd say they performed quite courageously in a very unexpected and terrifying situation.
    I don't expect everyone to be a black belt by any means. I'm just saying that a couple hundred people vs. a handful armed with box cutters... should be a pretty obvious outcome. And now, a couple of questions for you!
    1) Is it ever acceptable to not be "cool enough" to deal with problems?
    2) How many of those passengers were women and children?
    3) How many of those women/children were capable of contributing to saving the plane?
    4) How many of those passengers were "elderly and sick?"
    5) How many people does it take to disarm 3-7 men who are scattered around a plane and armed with simple tools?


    And a final question for critics (and particularly Christians):
    Is it ever acceptable to sacrifice yourself for the well-being of others? (By this I mean risk, there is no guarunteed result of any risk)
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    Ok, a couple questions:
    1) Is it ever acceptable to not know what to do?
    2) Is it ever acceptable to be "paralyzed by fear?"
    3) Is it excusable to allow yourself and others to suffer because of the intentions of others?
    When people die, it seems a little frivolous to care if people get offended about reasons why...

    I don't expect everyone to be a black belt by any means. I'm just saying that a couple hundred people vs. a handful armed with box cutters... should be a pretty obvious outcome.

    Fysh, honestly you are taking this a bit to far. And by applying that logic to other situations...

    1. Holocost- Thousands of Jews in cities against a couple hundered nazis (It was the JEWS FAULT!)

    2. Taino Massacre - Those natve hispanolians should have known that Columbus was no good! (The NATIVES brought it on themselves)

    3.Rock Spring, Wyoming 1885 - those 25 Chinese who were killed should have not taken thsoe jobs! (They were white people's positions damn ASIANS)

    4. 1921, in Tulsa, Oklahoma- Those living in the black business district shouldnt have provoked those planes to drop nitroglycerin on them (Those DARKIES should have known their role)

    I could go on with several other MASSACRES that the so called "victim" should have done something but Im sure everyone knows that they bring it on themselves.
    "ATF? What exactly does that stand for?"
    "Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms"
    "So, what else does you sell?"

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    and another thing "couple hundred people" fysh Im sure it was more like 90 or 70 or something, cant remember the number. But for a flight that long you can assume that most were proabbly Businessmen or women that were Either wealthy and/or not as physically capable of defending themselves.
    "ATF? What exactly does that stand for?"
    "Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms"
    "So, what else does you sell?"

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDem
    Fysh, honestly you are taking this a bit to far.
    That so? Tell me where the line was drawn then. As I said, when people die, being offended by explanations doesn't do much to prevent it in the future.


    And by applying that logic to other situations...

    1. Holocost- Thousands of Jews in cities against a couple hundered nazis (It was the JEWS FAULT!)
    The entire Holocaust should never have happened. If the general public was not manipulable enough to have advocated persecution, then the Jews would not have been subject to all that they were. Don't blame the Jews, blame the Germans of the time.

    2. Taino Massacre - Those natve hispanolians should have known that Columbus was no good! (The NATIVES brought it on themselves)

    3.Rock Spring, Wyoming 1885 - those 25 Chinese who were killed should have not taken thsoe jobs! (They were white people's positions damn ASIANS)

    4. 1921, in Tulsa, Oklahoma- Those living in the black business district shouldnt have provoked those planes to drop nitroglycerin on them (Those DARKIES should have known their role)
    What the hell is all this? You completely missed my point. Go back and READ my argument, and do try not to misinterpret.

    I could go on with several other MASSACRES that the so called "victim" should have done something but Im sure everyone knows that they bring it on themselves.
    Did I say anything about "bring it on themselves?" I'm saying that people with the power to stop problems tend not to. They either don't know that they can, expect someone else to do it, or are too scared to be responsible for themselves and others. I'm not advocating persecution by any means. I'm advocating responsibility by all parties.
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

  13. #13
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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Stop wondering. Jeez, you guys are the computer jocks. Google for God's sake!

    http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/tra...3.victims.html

    Only 45 people on board, and I only count 9 "for sure" males of an age to do something. Unfortunately, there isn't enough information to determine much about the rest of the folks on board...

    At any rate, it was a UA flight, not an AA flight. The AA flights went into the Twin Towers, I guess...
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDem
    and another thing "couple hundred people" fysh Im sure it was more like 90 or 70 or something, cant remember the number. But for a flight that long you can assume that most were proabbly Businessmen or women that were Either wealthy and/or not as physically capable of defending themselves.
    so if there are 3-7 terrorists, you think (giving you the benefit of the doubt) that 70 - 7 = 63 passengers (plus 5-10 crew) are incapable of disarming 7 poorly armed men? Even if they were all children, that's almost 9 people to each guy, and the terrorists do not have guns. Think about that. Can you fight off 9 children at once? How about 2 children, 2 businesswomen, 2 wealthy "weaklings," a high school football player, and a middle-aged Joe Six-pack?

    Face it, your math and logic here are terrible. There is no good reason for the hijackings to have worked other than having taken advantage of fear/cowardice and incompetence/evasion of responsibility.
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    Ok, a couple questions:
    1) Is it ever acceptable to not know what to do?
    2) Is it ever acceptable to be "paralyzed by fear?"
    3) Is it excusable to allow yourself and others to suffer because of the intentions of others?
    When people die, it seems a little frivolous to care if people get offended about reasons why...
    1. If someone has NEVER been in the situation before, then yes, it's acceptable if they don't know what to do. (Before you had gotten into a car or had any lessons, did you know how to drive without crashing? Also, having a plane hijacked in this country was almost unheard of, (among non-airline personnel, at least), before 9/11, so I don't think many had a "battle plan" in mind in case it happened.)

    2. It isn't ideal, I'll grant you that, but again, it was a scary situation that probably no one on that plane could forsee and if they were afraid...so afraid that they could not think of anything to do and instead spent the time calling and saying good-bye to loved ones...then I can't say as I blame them. (Although I think we are losing sight that we are talking about Flight 93, whose passengers attempted to take the craft over. It was noble just to try...I'm starting to wonder how many of us here would actually do the same...I'm not about to tell their families, "They didn't do well enough and 9/11 was their doing!")

    3. The "intentions of others" is/was not under your control. You can try and stop someone from doing bad, but whatever they decide to do, they will need to take responsibility for, themselves. Are you trying to say that the passengers on the plane were responsible for terrorists getting out of their seats and killing the cockpit crew?

    If you want my opinion, it seems "frivolous" and downright disrespectful and appalling to try and blame victims for their deaths and for the deaths of many others, especially in this case, when the victims did try and stop it.

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Im not trying to defend the idea that several people were incapable of disarming these "Poorly Armed Men" (Reports have said, as in the trial that is going on now in germany, that the hijackers had large amounts of mace and pepper spray and if you've ever been hit with that **** it can take anyone down)

    I was trying to say that your "responsibility on all parties" logic is bull****. You cant take a one deminsional view such as:
    (The crew + passengers strength > terrorists strength [Therefore they should have done something])

    You ahve to take other things into consideration:

    1. If the terrorists did indeed have pepper spray (which an FBI agent who was a lead investigator stated in a German trial for a terrorist involved in 9/11) Then they probably targeted thsoe who would be most capable of doing anything

    2. The object of destroying the plane and everything on it had never been laid out before so it was probably the belief of the passengers that if they cooperated then they would be let go just as in most other hijackings before (And keep in mind pre-9/11 people were always told when threatened, do what the party threatening says to do to stay alive, they wont kill you unless you act against them)

    3. And if the passengers did attempt to retake the cockpit it wouldnt be that hard for the terroist to lock the door and take the plane down. My cousins boyfriend of 2 years who is a commercial piolit student said that all if would take would be a sharp nose point down and the flipping of a couple of switches to make the plane outside the bounds of recoveery for an inexperienced aviator. So it is very possible that they DID try and take the cockpit and DIDNT sit back and do nothing.
    "ATF? What exactly does that stand for?"
    "Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms"
    "So, what else does you sell?"

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    (plus 5-10 crew)
    Note: The terrorists had immediately killed the pilots and crew (Not sure on the crew but piolits for sure, they didnt want anyone capable of flying the plane alive besides themselves.
    "ATF? What exactly does that stand for?"
    "Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms"
    "So, what else does you sell?"

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    " In Shanksville, Pa.: 40 passengers and crew members died aboard United Flight 93. Four hijackers also died aboard the plane."

    5 crew members, so 35 passengers, the numbers are falling Fysh
    "ATF? What exactly does that stand for?"
    "Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms"
    "So, what else does you sell?"

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed

    So we can blame the success of 9-11 on the incompetence of those passengers and crew just as much as we can on the terrorists whose shoddy plot succeeded.
    hmmm.... Blame it on 35 people who, according to black box evidence, didnt know that they were going to die until they realized they had to try and take the plane back (Which, might I remind you, Is what they did do)
    "ATF? What exactly does that stand for?"
    "Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms"
    "So, what else does you sell?"

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    Re: Flight AA 93

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    That so? Tell me where the line was drawn then. As I said, when people die, being offended by explanations doesn't do much to prevent it in the future.
    I can't speak for anyone else, but what I am offended by is that this line of explanations has gone directly to questioning the roles of victims...people who innocently died, themselves...in the 9/11 attacks. Even airliners, who have most of the responsibility to assure something like this doesn't happen again, have gone to locking cockpit doors, installing more reinforced ones, and exploring the idea of putting air marshals on flights, before saying something like all passengers MUST be certified in marshal arts or have "attack survival" know-how before they can be approved to fly. It is the job of the AIRLINES to have a plan to deal with hijackings, not of the passengers.

 

 
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