Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 76
  1. #41
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Let me restate my points, I've answered your points within:

    1. bin Laden is a Muslim because he says he is, and likely practices the religion per the Koran. Since you're not disputing then, we can move forward that he is indeed a Muslim. The experts I was referring to were Obama's advisors on the matter.
    Ok, where did I say he wasn't a Muslim? I honestly have no idea why you think this is a point that needs making. I've never claimed otherwise. In fact, it's central to my position that we're at war with Islam. Osama Bin Laden and his many followers declared Jihad against America. Jihad IS a Holy War based on the teaching of the Koran, which is the holy book of Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    2. Showing this picture is incredibly unwise, for the points I've already stated. It's tantamount, in Obama's words, treating him as a trophy (that's what I was alluding to with the heads on spikes), and would only inflame abuses against us.
    From whom, Sharmak? That's the point. If we're worried about abuse from someone, who is it? All I've heard is that it's Muslims we're worried about. If it's Muslims we're worried about, then everyone needs to admit that Osama Bin Laden WAS a Muslim as are his followers, and that it is their faith that motivates them to do what they do. Hence, it is false to say that we are not war with Islam. Indeed we are. We have been from the beginning.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    From neither of these points can you conclude that we are at war with other Muslims.


    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    The first point recognizes him as a Muslim, the second is just caution in releasing an obviously gory image and caution not just to other Muslims but to anyone.
    How is it possibly a caution to other Muslims?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    I don't think his Muslim credentials are really relevant in this decision.


    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Unless, the entire world needs to see it as proof, beyond the proof from his wife and kid that witness it, there is zero gain in showing it.
    There is plenty to gain in showing it. Not only would it demonstrate that we won't be made to grovel in fear from the soldiers of Islamic terrorism, but it will also inspire trust in the government whose actions currently look questionable at best and false at worst.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    One more thing: Bush declared that this is specifically not a war against Islam and very much against a loosely connected group of terrorists around the world, i.e. al-Qaeda, a term which was invented to pull these disparate missions together.
    Oh, well if someone said it wasn't such a war...

    He look everyone! I'm Napoleon!

    See? Saying something doesn't make it so.

    ---------- Post added at 04:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    Right, which is why I feel it's important to identify the constituency that we are actually at war with rather than wholesale say we are at war with Islam.
    Oh, I'm with you here bro. Seriously. But given the sheer size of the religious threat (and it is a religious threat), I think it's fair to say that we ARE at war with Islam, to precisely the extent that this large group represents. This is how it's different than the Phelps clan. They're a few dozen idiots among millions where with Islam it's millions of conservative adherents among millions of radical adherents. The numbers are so vast that I honestly can't say that Islam itself isn't a threat. Without the considerable faith-based threat, what would we be afraid of?

  2. #42
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Oh, I'm with you here bro. Seriously. But given the sheer size of the religious threat (and it is a religious threat), I think it's fair to say that we ARE at war with Islam, to precisely the extent that this large group represents. This is how it's different than the Phelps clan. They're a few dozen idiots among millions where with Islam it's millions of conservative adherents among millions of radical adherents. The numbers are so vast that I honestly can't say that Islam itself isn't a threat. Without the considerable faith-based threat, what would we be afraid of?
    There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world with notably many countries that are 90% Muslim that we are not a war with. The problem is not the religion itself, but the interpretation of the religion with, even if millions, a small percentage of the population.

    The US currently has 100,000 troops in Afghanistan which has a population of over 28,000,000 Muslims. If Islam, as a religion, were ever at war with us, it would be in Afghanistan. We should have gotten thrown to the curb long ago. My point being that the religion is not the issue, but instead an ideology that masks itself as the religion.

    From a random googled article:
    “Ninety percent is a tribal, localized insurgency,’’ said one US intelligence official in Washington who helped draft the assessments. “Ten percent are hardcore ideologues fighting for the Taliban.’’

    http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...y_reports_say/
    It's estimated that security forces have 4-1 ratio against the 25,000 Taliban in Afghanistan. It only took 19 hijackers (save their network) to kill 3000 people. I can see how the perception is that the war is against Islam because they use terrorism which has bigger psychological impact; but do the numbers really support that perception? Are you sure there is a faith-based threat?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

  3. #43
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,274
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Ok, where did I say he wasn't a Muslim? I honestly have no idea why you think this is a point that needs making. I've never claimed otherwise. In fact, it's central to my position that we're at war with Islam. Osama Bin Laden and his many followers declared Jihad against America. Jihad IS a Holy War based on the teaching of the Koran, which is the holy book of Islam.
    Your OP is giving two different paths as to whether he was a Muslim, true Muslim, or not a Muslim at all.

    Yes, this is a Jihad, but that's like Bush referring it, inadvertently, I think, a Crusade. It's certainly a call to action but there is no central Islamic Caliphate that pulls together all Muslims to fight for this cause.

    Islam is a billion people split up over several continents, much like Catholicism, it's not the hive mind you seem to be suggesting. Indeed, there is a large contingent of the army that is religious and Christianity is part of our forces - that doesn't make this a Christian war.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    From whom, Sharmak? That's the point. If we're worried about abuse from someone, who is it? All I've heard is that it's Muslims we're worried about. If it's Muslims we're worried about, then everyone needs to admit that Osama Bin Laden WAS a Muslim as are his followers, and that it is their faith that motivates them to do what they do. Hence, it is false to say that we are not war with Islam. Indeed we are. We have been from the beginning.
    Well those people that would be inflamed are going to be his supporters, who are likely Muslim. That still doesn't make this a war against Islam, per se. The most you can say is that this is a war against a group of followers of Islam with a single goal to bring down the West.

    Everything you say about bin Laden, and his followers is true but it does not follow that we are at war with Islam. We are at war with a sub-section of Islam. I don't know why you're extrapolating when it's obvious you don't need to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    There is plenty to gain in showing it. Not only would it demonstrate that we won't be made to grovel in fear from the soldiers of Islamic terrorism, but it will also inspire trust in the government whose actions currently look questionable at best and false at worst.
    It is not being with-held because we fear reprisals - we don't want to encourage them. It's just that it is an unnecessary extraneous information that no-one needs to have. We don't need to prove that bin Laden " will not walk this earth again" to anyone. So it doesn't matter whether he's really secretly alive or actually dead but frozen for some morbid experiment or truly buried at sea.

    The only important factor here, if you believe that he was even ever there, is that he is no longer operating in this war. This is the only important outcome of the entire incident, everything else is incidental.

    And if it were otherwise, then bin Laden can rear his ugly head and do a whole bunch of videos and embarrass the USA. Until then, other than satisfying some blood-lust, I really don't need to see him dead specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Oh, well if someone said it wasn't such a war...

    He look everyone! I'm Napoleon!

    See? Saying something doesn't make it so.
    In the case of a war, or military action that this is, one needs to name an enemy. al Qaeda was specifically created for this purpose so that it would cover operatives and cells around the world and not specifically certain countries, unless they harbored them.

    And it wasn't 'somebody', it was the President of the United States, declaring this action.

    ---------- Post added at 09:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...058#post466058

    Don't the families of the victims of 9/11 have any rights? Aren't they entitled to see visual proof positive that Osama Bin Laden is indeed dead and buried?
    I think that's why he's holding a memorial there. For closure and to show the families the images, probably after signing all away their lives and all that. For the rest of us, I don't think we need to see it.

    Several newspapers are asserting the right to access those images, so they may get shown anyway.

  4. #44
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    I think I'm not expressing myself very well.

    Either Osama Bin Laden is a "true" Muslim, or he isn't. If he isn't, then there's nothing to fear from the Muslim world and there's no reason to not release the photo because the Muslim world isn't a threat and isn't the enemy.

    If he IS a true Muslim, then there IS something to fear from the Muslim world and there IS a good reason to not release the photo (or TO release it, depending on what you want the outcome to be) because the Muslim world IS a threat and IS the enemy.
    False dilemma. The fear isn't from the Muslim world, but the radicals within it. It doesn't take many to cause a lot of damage (as we've seen from 9/11).
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  5. #45
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    False dilemma. The fear isn't from the Muslim world, but the radicals within it. It doesn't take many to cause a lot of damage (as we've seen from 9/11).
    The "radicals" already want to kill us, so releasing pictures wouldn't negatively affect their views.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #46
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    First, thanks to everyone for being generous enough to commit time and energy to this discussion. It has been very interesting so far, and lots of excellent comments have been made.

    Second, thanks to everyone for the reputation. I'm flattered.

    Based on some excellent argumentation so far, I'd like to amend my opening comments to acknowledge some concessions, and to better express my position. I think I've not done this very well, and I think perhaps now I'm even arguing some things I never intended to i.e. that we must be at war with all of Islam, that Muslims are to necessarily be distrusted, and that we ought to treat Osama bin Laden's body with disrespect.

    My central points are these:
    • The media and government officials have gone to great lengths to portray Bin Laden as a Non-Muslim, and they have also gone to great lengths to emphasize that we are not at war with Muslims or Islam itself.
    • The government has told us that the hasty disposal of Bin Laden's body was motivated by the desire to respect Muslim tradition. This does not make sense if Bin Laden was, as the media and government says, not a Muslim.
    • The media and government officials are now saying that we ought not release photographic evidence because it might be offensive to the Muslim community. This, as with the last, makes no sense if the "Muslim community" didn't regard him as a fellow Muslim.
    So my point isn't so much that we're at war with Islam. My point is that the SAME people are in one hand telling us that he wasn't a Muslim and that anything he does shouldn't be a reflection on the Muslim community, and on the other they are telling us that they did "X" to his body to respect Muslim tradition, and they're NOT doing "X" with the evidence because of respect for Muslims. So if they feel that he wasn't a Muslim, there's no reason to respect Bin Laden AS a Muslim with a hasty Muslim burial, nor should there be concern over offending Muslims with the photos. If the Muslim community didn't regard him as a fellow, as we've been told, then there should not have been such a rush to dispose of the body, and we shouldn't be concerned about offending Muslims with photographic evidence of death.

    Having said that, there may be a number of other GOOD reasons to not do these things. But I'm not interested in arguing these reasons. These reasons are the topic for another thread. My position is strictly that --assuming the "Muslim community" rejects him as a fellow just as the Christian community rejects Hitler as a fellow-- treating Bin Laden as a Muslim is nonsensical and concerning ourselves with offending the Muslim community with photo evidence of death is also nonsensical.

    So I'm not saying we need to generalize Islam as bad or treat Muslims with suspicion. I'm saying that the powers-that-be are saying things then going on to behave in a way that doesn't jive with what they're telling us.

    I hope that clears things up a bit.

  7. #47
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The "radicals" already want to kill us, so releasing pictures wouldn't negatively affect their views.
    Not true. The radicals would use this to incite increased passion in their intent to do violence. They need motivation like this to recruit and work up that mob mentality. It's why every affordable custom for the burial of Osama was given...to offer the least amount of excuses as possible.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; May 5th, 2011 at 08:07 AM.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  8. #48
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Pray for our troops
    Posts
    5,340
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Not true. The radicals would use this to incite increased passion in their intent to do violence. They need motivation like this to recruit and work up that mob mentality. It's why every affordable custom for the burial of Osama was given...to offer the least amount of excuses as possible.
    The sort of people who are in the mob and of the mob mentality are not going to believe the story the U.S. says just because we say it. They should release video of a dead bin Laden and his funeral services as visual proof it happened like the U.S. said.

    Sure some in the mob will discount this, but some won't. For a larger group on the firinge of the mob mindset, it adds to the body evidence showing America does what it says.
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

    How can a moral wrong be a Civil Right?

  9. #49
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,893
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Look, already our enemies are denying his death:

    Taliban says insufficient evidence bin Laden is dead

    http://www.jpost.com/International/A...aspx?id=219025

    Such speculation is encouraged by our refusal to release the photos and undermines any morale or psychological advantage gained by his death.

    If you do not think that such "evidence" will have any impact, just look at the effect of Obama's birth certificate on the birthers, whose number have been cut in half: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...AZxF_blog.html

    The only reason it even got such large numbers was because it took so long for Obama to release the birth certificate. The longer we wait or refuse to release photos of Osama, the more we allow this sort of conspiracy theory to take root in people who normally would not believe it. This is dangerous because it increases the cult following of Osama, furthers the myth that he is invulnerable, and detracts from the psychological impact on our enemies.

    If you honestly think that Osama's death would be a boon to the morale of our enemy, then the leaders of the Taliban and Al Qaeda would embrace the news to incite their followers to violence. They are doing the exact opposite. Osama's death does not increase their willingness to fight, it damages it. It makes them afraid. It destroys the myth of Osama bin Laden and his ability to take on the US. This is a real advantage and we risk loosing it by not proving that we killed him.

  10. #50
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,274
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    Look, already our enemies are denying his death:

    Taliban says insufficient evidence bin Laden is dead

    http://www.jpost.com/International/A...aspx?id=219025

    Such speculation is encouraged by our refusal to release the photos and undermines any morale or psychological advantage gained by his death.
    The article says:

    Terror group speaks for first time since US announced killing of al-Qaida leader, says aides to bin laden have not confirmed or denied death.

    which means they don't really know yet. Personally, I think it would be more awesome to find out when they stop receiving commands or communications.

    I think it plays to our side better that they suspect he may be alive in some dungeon - they basically have to rebuild everything in case bin Laden knew about it.

  11. #51
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,893
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    The article says:
    Terror group speaks for first time since US announced killing of al-Qaida leader, says aides to bin laden have not confirmed or denied death.
    which means they don't really know yet. Personally, I think it would be more awesome to find out when they stop receiving commands or communications.

    I think it plays to our side better that they suspect he may be alive in some dungeon - they basically have to rebuild everything in case bin Laden knew about it.
    This is both naive and wishful thinking.

    1) Osama had vast amounts of information stored on hard drives which has been widely announced throughout the news that we have. Al Qaeda already knows that we have potentially damaging information and will begin to reorganize whether or not they believe him dead or alive.

    2) You may think it is more "awesome" for Osama to suddenly be silent, but how much more awesome to post a picture of your symbolic leader dead and covered in blood. I think you really fail to grasp how significant such images are on morale. They don't boost morale. Trust me. When you see a comrade fallen, you are discouraged, you begin to loose hope. Hearing about it is tough, but when you see the actual body and blood, its infinitely harder.

    3) Osama had built Al Qaeda to be a network of loosely organized cells, not a direct hierarchy so that the death of a leader had little direct impact on the actual operation. Al Qaeda is not going to fall apart simply because Osama goes "silent." Under Bush, Osama had been so marginalized that he was no longer a functional leader, but a symbolic one. As a symbolic leader, his death is of value not in how it affects daily operations of our enemies, but in how it demoralizes, discourages, and disenchants the terrorists. This symbolic victory is enhanced by the release of bloody pictures and weakened by our refusal to do so.

    4) There is more psychological value to Al Qaeda in believing Osama is still alive, even if imprisoned. An imprisoned leader is a symbolically significant and encourages because there is hope of his release, but also because there is anger at his treatment.

  12. #52
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Pray for our troops
    Posts
    5,340
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    I have come to the conclusion that the decision to not release the images probably has more to do with some segments in America getting upset than it does about Muslims being upset.

    In the Middles East and Asia death is viewed as a normal happening. Usually natural in cause -- often human in cause. Sure some there are going to make a stink....but they are making that protest because they know American society is insulated from death.

    We spend billions every year in making our dead look "alive" at our funerals. Even when we go to a graveside service, the dirt dug from the grave is covered in artificial grass. No one even stays to see the coffin covered with Earth. Foreign Muslims see this behavior and they think Americans are weak.

    If any make a fuss about our showing the images, they make that fuss because they think we are weak. They know many Americans are hypersensitive about never wanting to offend. Nothing gives them comfort more than to see news reports of Americans criticizing our government, and taking the terrorist's side. They laugh at this and think it is great fun. It gives them hope in some sort of victory.
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

    How can a moral wrong be a Civil Right?

  13. #53
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,893
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    I have come to the conclusion that the decision to not release the images probably has more to do with some segments in America getting upset than it does about Muslims being upset.

    In the Middles East and Asia death is viewed as a normal happening. Usually natural in cause -- often human in cause. Sure some there are going to make a stink....but they are making that protest because they know American society is insulated from death.

    We spend billions every year in making our dead look "alive" at our funerals. Even when we go to a graveside service, the dirt dug from the grave is covered in artificial grass. No one even stays to see the coffin covered with Earth. Foreign Muslims see this behavior and they think Americans are weak.

    If any make a fuss about our showing the images, they make that fuss because they think we are weak. They know many Americans are hypersensitive about never wanting to offend. Nothing gives them comfort more than to see news reports of Americans criticizing our government, and taking the terrorist's side. They laugh at this and think it is great fun. It gives them hope in some sort of victory.
    I agree largely. It is more about American perceptions than Muslim ones that holds Obama back. I think Americans are more concerned about insult than the rest of the world.

    Death is viewed very differently in the third world. Its so everyday, that it is not as frightening as it is to Americans. Spart, I think you know full well what its like to be in a situation, where the possibility of death is so near and real. At some point, death looses its edge and in the third world, where this threat is part of everyday life, it is certainly not as significant. After all, theirs is a culture where a fruit vendor burns himself to death in protest. That would be unheard of in our culture, such is the fear of death.

  14. #54
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    The media and government officials have gone to great lengths to portray Bin Laden as a Non-Muslim, and they have also gone to great lengths to emphasize that we are not at war with Muslims or Islam itself.
    Can you support the claim the media and government have indicated OBL is a non-Muslim?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

  15. #55
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against


  16. #56
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Pray for our troops
    Posts
    5,340
    Post Thanks / Like
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

    How can a moral wrong be a Civil Right?

  17. #57
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    So....are you citing this because President Obama is a Muslim cleric or scholar?
    Neither. I'm citing it because Snacks asked me to support the claim that the government has portrayed Bin Laden as a non-Muslim.

  18. #58
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Pray for our troops
    Posts
    5,340
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Neither. I'm citing it because Snacks asked me to support the claim that the government has portrayed Bin Laden as a non-Muslim.
    I offer that how U.S. media and government portrays OBL is not all that relevant, except to show the U.S. is trying to make it appear we are not at war against Islam, when the facts state we certainly are -- at least a certain tiny element within Islam. An element recognized as Muslim by other Muslims.

    Whether or not this small element are "good" Muslims is not that relevant. It is like the kid who beats up his little brother -- but will defend his little brother if someone else does the same thing.
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

    How can a moral wrong be a Civil Right?

  19. #59
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    I offer that how U.S. media and government portrays OBL is not all that relevant, except to show the U.S. is trying to make it appear we are not at war against Islam, when the facts state we certainly are -- at least a certain tiny element within Islam. An element recognized as Muslim by other Muslims.
    Well, that's kinda where I'm at. I talked about it here and Snacks is asking for support for a statement in that post.

  20. #60
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bin Laden: Muslim or Not and Faith We're not Warring Against

    I hate to put you to task on this, really I do. Can you show where media, specifically Muslim media as you point to in the OP denies OBL as a Muslim?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

 

 
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •