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  1. #21
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    Would a sniper on the battlefield be considered a murderer to you as he kills the enemy with premeditation?
    Was that person trying to take his life or the life of someone else?
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


  2. #22
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    A telling example of "was it murder?" is the death of Osama Bin Laden.

    Obviously the person who killed him is not going to be tried for murder in the US nor is generally being called a murderer by US citizens even though a strong case could be made that the killing was premeditated.

  3. #23
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    A telling example of "was it murder?" is the death of Osama Bin Laden.
    Was Bin Laden trying to kill other people? If he was, his death wasn't "murder." It was self-defense.

    Abortion isn't the killing of a mass-murderer who is actively trying to kill others and shows absolutely no desire to change his ways.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    Was that person trying to take his life or the life of someone else?
    Why would it matter? He is a soldier on the battlefield with a specific job to kill the enemy. Is he a murderer? He is premeditating and deliberately killing people as indicative of your proposed definition of murder. What other qualifications are there with regard to your definition?
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  5. #25
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    Was Bin Laden trying to kill other people? If he was, his death wasn't "murder." It was self-defense.
    As I understand it, it was determined that he was not, when shot, an lethal threat to the man who shot him. And even if he was, IF it was determined that he wasn't a threat at that moment, his killer would still not be prosecuted for murder under US law.

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    Abortion isn't the killing of a mass-murderer who is actively trying to kill others and shows absolutely no desire to change his ways.
    But the point is that it's still not "murder" under US law. And likewise it isn't murder by any other rules that I recognize so the OP's statement that it definitely is murder is incorrect.

    There is no reason that I must recognize it as murder.

  6. #26
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    As I understand it, it was determined that he was not, when shot, an lethal threat to the man who shot him. And even if he was, IF it was determined that he wasn't a threat at that moment, his killer would still not be prosecuted for murder under US law.
    You didn't ask me, "Does it qualify as murder under US Criminal Code?" You asked me whether or not I consider it murder. As did the OP. And at no point was it specified that I must rely on the circular definition provided in the legal code.

    But the point is that it's still not "murder" under US law. And likewise it isn't murder by any other rules that I recognize so the OP's statement that it definitely is murder is incorrect.
    I disagree. The way I employ the word "murder," it most certainly qualifies. The only way it could be incorrect is if he's using the same definition of murder you are. Otherwise, it's not incorrect. It's simply inconsistent with "statute."

    There is no reason that I must recognize it as murder.
    Nor is there any reason that I must recognize the definition of "murder" provided by you and Snackboy.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    You didn't ask me, "Does it qualify as murder under US Criminal Code?" You asked me whether or not I consider it murder. As did the OP. And at no point was it specified that I must rely on the circular definition provided in the legal code.
    Perhaps. But you can't ignore it either. The dictionary defines murder as an "unlawful" killing. So there's no denying that one can argue that they don't consider abortion based on that. Maybe you can define murder another way but the fact is I am perfectly justified in saying that I don't consider it to be murder because of the status of the law.

    And the OP says that we pretty much have to consider it murder. To quote:

    "I should imagine everyone will admit this to be true."

    The fact that I shown why I not only don't have to "admit this to be true", but have shown that I have very good reason to outright reject that assertion shows that the OP is not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    Nor is there any reason that I must recognize the definition of "murder" provided by you and Snackboy.
    I'm not saying you do. I am challenging what the OP says, not saying that you have to agree with how I have defined murder.

  8. #28
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Perhaps. But you can't ignore it either. The dictionary defines murder as an "unlawful" killing.
    Then the statement becomes:

    It is unlawful to unlawfully kill someone.

    Do you see why I find that less than adequate? Do you see what sort of problems, morally speaking, that this could present?

    I certainly can and do ignore what the dictionary says murder is until such time as the OP explains the context in which he's asking the question (i.e. what his definition of "murder" is in this instance).

    The fact that I shown why I not only don't have to "admit this to be true", but have shown that I have very good reason to outright reject that assertion shows that the OP is not true.
    Given your definition of the word. Your definition of the word is not the Correct™ definition. And I've shown it's not the ONLY definition, and that, in fact, the older definition of the word included no stipulation that the act must be expressly prohibited by law for it to be considered "murder." You appeal to popularity, I appeal to tradition, and we both end up with definitions that are arbitrary at best, but neither of them are "invalid."

    So, you don't have to, for any reason, consider abortion murder. That's fine. This isn't "convince Mican that abortion is murder." It's "is abortion murder?" Given my assumptions (premises), it is.

    All we've really done here is demonstrate nothing more than the fact that the OP failed to define its terms properly. Logic is all about determining whether or not conclusions are consistent with premises. Definitions of words are premises, not statements of objective fact. You and I employ different premises, therefore it should be no surprise that our different, conflicting conclusions, are equally valid given those different premises that you and I are employing.
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


  9. #29
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    Nor is there any reason that I must recognize the definition of "murder" provided by you and Snackboy.
    True, you don't have to. But then it's very difficult to have a debate if one makes words what they want to fit the argument. Most people would probably agree that murder is the unlawful killing of someone. You have yet to present your absolute definition of murder, meanwhile rejecting others, including the standard accepted definition. The definition of murder is the definition of murder.

    The OP implies nothing other than the legal definition considering the OP [tacitly] refers to government. If the OP said under Christian Law abortion is murder, you would get no argument from me. Hopefully, OP will be clarified.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    Then the statement becomes:

    It is unlawful to unlawfully kill someone.

    Do you see why I find that less than adequate? Do you see what sort of problems, morally speaking, that this could present?
    Not really. "Murder" is not inherently immoral (although I'm sure we'll agree that a vast majority of acts of murder are). What about a father who murders his daughter's killer? Some people might argue that that particular murder was justified and therefore not immoral.

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    I certainly can and do ignore what the dictionary says murder is until such time as the OP explains the context in which he's asking the question (i.e. what his definition of "murder" is in this instance).
    And I will use the "murder" as best as I understand that it is defined and if you want to debate with me, you'd better not use that word if you aren't talking about an unlawful killing. That's not to say we can't find a word that works for all parties, like "kill". I will certainly agree that abortion kills a fetus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    All we've really done here is demonstrate nothing more than the fact that the OP failed to define its terms properly.
    If he meant "killing" instead of "unlawfully killing", then you are correct. But there is nothing wrong with me correcting him on his terminology.

    And beyond any semantic issues, "murder" is also a word that gives the impression of immorality and/or wrongness as opposed to a more neutral word like "kill", which tilts the debate a bit if it's the accepted term for abortion.

    So again, I have valid reason for rejecting the use of that word as a premise. If you want to call it "murder", provide a supported argument that it is so.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mican333
    and beyond any semantic issues, "murder" is also a word that gives the impression of immorality and/or wrongness as opposed to a more neutral word like "kill"
    You may not realize it but you just made my point here. The purpose of using the word is generally to suggest that a killing "should not" have happened.
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


  12. #32
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    I don't think the opening poster is asking an academic question here. That wouldn't be much of a discussion, would it? Well of course abortion isn't murder by legal definitions. It's LEGAL. Legal killing ISN'T "murder" by definition. Duhhh...

    I think what's being asked is whether or not we can call it 'murder' by ethical/moral standards i.e. ought we or ought we not perform abortions, and if we ought to, under what circumstance ought we do so? Or ought we not ever do so? Why not?

  13. #33
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    You may not realize it but you just made my point here. The purpose of using the word is generally to suggest that a killing "should not" have happened.
    Manslaughter and accidental killings are generally considered to be killings that "should not" have happened as well so why do we have different words for them?

    Murder is generally used to describe an unlawful killing. The fact that there are other ways to use the word does invalidate the word's primary definition - the one that is first in the dictionary. You brought up that I'm using "appeal to popularity" as my basis. Well yeah, the primary definition of the word is the one that is most widely used, in other words the one that is generally used.

    I recognize that you can define the word another way, but the point stands that I define it, for clearly good reason, as an unlawful killing and will continue to do so and likewise answer the question "Is it murder?" on my best understanding of the word "murder".

    So my answer is "no" and my answer stands, not as provably true, but as the one that I am sticking with and have no valid reason to abandon.

  14. #34
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Murder is generally used to describe an unlawful killing.
    Manslaughter is legal??
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


  15. #35
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    Manslaughter is legal??
    Just because murder is an illegal killing, it does not mean that there aren't other kinds of illegal killing. As I'm sure you know, the difference is premeditation, which is accounted for in the dictionary (or at least the one I will use for support here).

    1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/murder

  16. #36
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Just because murder is an illegal killing, it does not mean that there aren't other kinds of illegal killing.
    I'm sorry... You seemed to contradict yourself there when you neglected to mention the "premeditated" part. You simply said "an illegal killing."

    But that's it. I'm done arguing. Dio's got the point I was trying to make. I'm waiting for the OP to come back (if ever).
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


  17. #37
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    I'm sorry... You seemed to contradict yourself there when you neglected to mention the "premeditated" part. You simply said "an illegal killing."
    No contradiction at all.

    An illegal, premeditated killing is not the opposite of an illegal killing.

  18. #38
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No contradiction at all.

    An illegal, premeditated killing is not the opposite of an illegal killing.
    Not all murders are premeditated, though.

    Not all illegal killings are murder; murder is intentional, unjustifiable homicide. Unintentional negligent homicide is illegal killing, but not murder (it's manslaughter).
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  19. #39
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Not all murders are premeditated, though.

    Not all illegal killings are murder; murder is intentional, unjustifiable homicide. Unintentional negligent homicide is illegal killing, but not murder (it's manslaughter).

    Right. 1st degree murder is premeditated. 2nd is just intentional.

  20. #40
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    Re: Is abortion murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    Sans law, there would be no such thing as murder. Asking if there can be murder without law is kind of like asking if there can blue without color. That's not to say there cannot be killing nor is it to say that killing is not wrong; it is just, by definition, it cannot be called murder.

    I'm assuming that's what he meant, at least.
    I disagree entirely. After all, before there was any written law or code, there were still morals and you were judged upon what was known to be wrong, not a subjective opinion of whether it was wrong or right. For example, in early courts around the world there was no defined law against murder but everyone knew that it was the unjust killing of another human being and you were to be put on trial for the crime. Everyone knew it to be murder without any written code as to define what murder was.

 

 
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