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  1. #21
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

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    Re: Are the ten commandments relevant today?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    I'd respect the belief, but I'd oppose it being taught in schools. It's a religious belief.
    Well, to what extent would you respect the belief? Would you respect it, say, to the extent that you say nothing about it so that you don't unintentionally disrespect the believer? How would you argue against this person if they had someone like Michael Behe touting Intelligent Weather Theory as scientific standing behind them, claiming it was to them secular disrespect, oppression and dogmatism for you to state that IWT was unscientific? Would you avoid pointing out that there is no evidence whatsoever of a blonde, hammer-wielding deity in the sky who makes the lightening and thunder, out of respect for this person who has managed to convince a non-trivial amount of registered voters that yes, indeed IWT is scientific and needs to be granted equal time in public high school? Would you also be fine with this going all the way to the Supreme Court so they could, on your dollar, deliberate the merits of IWT instead than other, probably far more important arguments?

  2. #22
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    Re: Are the ten commandments relevant today?

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Just because there is no evidence that Jesus did eat brains doesn't mean that he didn't. Just like just because there is no evidence for God doesn't mean he doesn't exist.
    I wonder whether, if a 2000 year old document came to light that claimed Jesus didn't exist, atheists would give it more weight than the 2000 year old documents saying he did.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  3. #23
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    Re: Are the ten commandments relevant today?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Yes, but does he eat brains? Oh wait, ...
    Most likely, yes. Jesus ate meat and at the time all parts of the animal were probably eaten. Wastefully throwing the brains away is a modern American custom.

    Although, I bet you meant human brains.

  4. #24
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    Re: Are the ten commandments relevant today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Well, to what extent would you respect the belief? Would you respect it, say, to the extent that you say nothing about it so that you don't unintentionally disrespect the believer? How would you argue against this person if they had someone like Michael Behe touting Intelligent Weather Theory as scientific standing behind them, claiming it was to them secular disrespect, oppression and dogmatism for you to state that IWT was unscientific? Would you avoid pointing out that there is no evidence whatsoever of a blonde, hammer-wielding deity in the sky who makes the lightening and thunder, out of respect for this person who has managed to convince a non-trivial amount of registered voters that yes, indeed IWT is scientific and needs to be granted equal time in public high school? Would you also be fine with this going all the way to the Supreme Court so they could, on your dollar, deliberate the merits of IWT instead than other, probably far more important arguments?
    First, I'd approach the discussion the same way I do any other. If the other side isn't interested in listening, there's no point in talking.

    I'd point out the scientific theory explaining weather. I'd explain the experiments that had been performed that support these theories.

    I'd explain that the scientific evidence for Thor isn't sufficient to support a Thor theory of weather, even if Thor actually causes the weather.

    I'd explain that science class is for teaching science, not for teaching everything that is true. We don't teach metaphysics or ethics in science class; we don't teach history in science class. We teach science. I would explain that even if his theory is true, the scientific theory is what should be taught in science class.



    Let's take a different example, though. Say some drugged out hippie type is into Norse theology, and he believes in Thor. But he's the worst kind of hippie: the college know-it-all hippie. He's disrespectful, arrogant, dismissive, and always claims to have the intellectual high ground. I'd respect his belief in Thor a lot less.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  5. #25
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

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    Re: Are the ten commandments relevant today?

    What strikes me about the resurrection is not that Jesus was claimed to have raised from the dead, but that when it happened --according to Matthew 27:52-- many other graves of holy people opened and the dead inside went into Jerusalem. So Jesus' walking and talking with the disciples with something of a banality compared to the "many" people going into Jerusalem (no other accounts of this spectacular event have been found, by the way).

    But what does this have to do with the Ten Commandments? We've gotten a bit off topic here...

    ---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    First, I'd approach the discussion the same way I do any other. If the other side isn't interested in listening, there's no point in talking.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    I'd point out the scientific theory explaining weather. I'd explain the experiments that had been performed that support these theories.

    I'd explain that the scientific evidence for Thor isn't sufficient to support a Thor theory of weather, even if Thor actually causes the weather.

    I'd explain that science class is for teaching science, not for teaching everything that is true. We don't teach metaphysics or ethics in science class; we don't teach history in science class. We teach science. I would explain that even if his theory is true, the scientific theory is what should be taught in science class.
    And of course this is a practical approach, and I agree entirely. However, this doesn't seem to work with certain types. The very reason the Flying Spaghetti Monster meme came about is precisely because what you're describing here didn't work with these people. The discussion HAD to take that sort of turn to illustrate the absurdity of the position because the very reasoned, rational approach you described above just didn't cut it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Let's take a different example, though. Say some drugged out hippie type is into Norse theology, and he believes in Thor. But he's the worst kind of hippie: the college know-it-all hippie. He's disrespectful, arrogant, dismissive, and always claims to have the intellectual high ground. I'd respect his belief in Thor a lot less.
    And I wouldn't blame you a bit. I think it's those who are just utterly convinced that they're right that make it harder for everyone.

  6. #26
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    Re: Are the ten commandments relevant today?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    I wonder whether, if a 2000 year old document came to light that claimed Jesus didn't exist, atheists would give it more weight than the 2000 year old documents saying he did.
    I wouldn't. Personally I believe that Jesus existed, that he was a brilliant man, a great philosopher and moralist. But that is where my belief ends. All that stuff about him being a zombie and the son of a magical being just sounds to ridiculous to me to believe.
    abc

 

 
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