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  1. #1
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    Isn't It Obvious?

    I hope this is in the correct place since it isn't really an argument but a question.



    How can a learned person believe in God? Is it not painfully obvious that God is just an invention of man? Please watch the short video above before responding.
    abc

  2. #2
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    Good music, good clips, good editing, great narration...the message is not compelling in the least (in as far as "God not existing and man being alone"). How anyone could think that this is some sort of inspiration for the idea that God does not exist, is beyond me. And a learned person believes in God by following the evidence and the logic of God's existence (which has been discussed on ODN many times).
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  4. #3
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    How can I believe in God. For one, I don't pretend that God created the entire Universe for me, because I believe that God created the Universe for His own glory, just as I believe I am created for His glory. The Universe is not about me, it is about God.

    Sagan say's we are the custodians of life's meaning, but how can a mere speck in on some insignificant planet be the lone custodian of the meaning of life? Is that not an even greater leap of arrogance?

    Sagan says we have no privilege and then endows man with the greatest privilege of all, as the guardian of the meaning of life. This is hypocrisy and arrogance, and how anyone can fall for it is beyond me. The Christian says, that God alone holds the meaning to life and that our existence is a gift of His grace.

    I find it far more plausible that such an amazing Universe would exist by the hands of a glorious and loving God, not for myself, but for His own glory.

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  6. #4
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    And a learned person believes in God by following the evidence and the logic of God's existence (which has been discussed on ODN many times).
    With all due respect Apok, you keep saying that there is evidence for the existence of your god, yet you do not present it for us to examine. Dio issued you a challenge somewhat recently in which to date, correct me if I am wrong, you have not answered. His challenge inspired me to create an entire thread on the subject of the evidence of the Christian god (I will provide links if asked, but to save on time and energy, I am sure most of us that are paying attention know which threads in question I am talking about), which you did not present any evidence in. When are we going to see this evidence? For a while many ODN Christians cited Chad's Cosmo thread, and quite a bit, until I and others pointed out that it was not evidence at all, and to date--again, correct me if I am wrong--Castle and I think a few others challenges have been left unanswered, and Chad himself abandoned the debate.

    And Chad, with respect to you as well, have only argued from the stance of a deist. I would love for you, Apok, or any other Christian here to address some pretty basic requests, namely what exactly the evidence is that proves that the Christian god is the one true and only god without appeals to a deist god. Fill in the gaps from "creator of the universe" to Jesus/god/holy spirit. I personally asked you to do this years ago, and you never got back to me.

  7. #5
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    PZ, sorry if I've not responded. Can you link the threads to me (or pm) and I'll try to answer those questions and respond. Also, I've summarized the evidence in multiple threads, which is probably why at the time, I didn't think it was necessary to do so again in one of your threads. But if my post was missed (as it was probably buried in a somewhat unrelated topic), I'll repost in the appropriate thread. Regardless...I don't think it addresses the question asked in the op. It was an uncompelling argument...Chad pointed out the inconsistencies rather nicely.
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  8. #6
    osbaldog53
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    "I don't want no computer chip in my arm
    I don't wanna die by a nuclear bomb
    I say we all rush the pentagon, pull out guns
    And grab the intercom, my first word's will be I believe
    Man made god, outta ignorance and fear
    If God made man, then why the hell would he put us here?
    I thought he's supposed to be the all loving
    The same God who let hitler put the jews in the oven
    We don't fall for the regular stuff, they try to feed us

    ---------- Post added at 01:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 PM ----------

    -Dead Prez Propaganda

  9. #7
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    Read some Kierkegaard, Kant, Barth, and Niebuhr. Don't attack Christian reasoning until you've actually familiarized yourself with it.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  10. #8
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Is it not painfully obvious that God is just an invention of man?
    If man invented God then who invented man? And I don't see how anything in the video is relevant to the question.

  11. #9
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    So you guys believe that something made this massive universe, all of these trillions of stars, billions of galaxies specifically for one spec of dust (Earth)? Not even that but for a spec of dist (Humans) on a spec of dust (Earth). More accurately, a piece of a spec of dust (insert religion) within a spec of dust (Humans) floating on a spec of dust (Earth). Forgive me for saying so, but is that not arrogance beyond arrogance? (I don't mean to insult with that last sentence, I just couldn't think of a nice way to put it.)

    ---------- Post added at 02:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------

    There are a lot of Gods out there, how do you know if you have chosen the right one?

    http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr...gods_index.htm

    Agdistis or Angdistis
    Ah Puch
    Ahura Mazda
    Alberich
    Allah
    Amaterasu
    An
    Anansi
    Anat
    Andvari
    Anshar
    Anu
    Aphrodite
    Apollo
    Apsu
    Ares
    Artemis
    Asclepius
    Athena
    Athirat
    Athtart
    Atlas
    Baal
    Ba Xian
    Bacchus
    Balder
    Bast
    Bellona
    Bergelmir
    Bes
    Bixia Yuanjin
    Bragi
    Brahma
    Brigit
    Camaxtli
    Ceres
    Ceridwen
    Cernunnos
    Chac
    Chalchiuhtlicue
    Charun
    Chemosh
    Cheng-huang
    Cybele
    Dagon
    Damkina (Dumkina)
    Davlin
    Dawn
    Demeter
    Diana
    Di Cang
    Dionysus
    Ea
    El
    Enki
    Enlil
    Eos
    Epona
    Ereskigal
    Farbauti
    Fenrir
    Forseti
    Fortuna
    Freya
    Freyr
    Frigg
    Gaia
    Ganesha
    Ganga
    Garuda
    Gauri
    Geb
    Geong Si
    Guanyin
    Hades
    Hanuman
    Hathor
    Hecate (Hekate)
    Helios
    Heng-o (Chang-o)
    Hephaestus
    Hera
    Hermes
    Hestia
    Hod
    Hoderi
    Hoori
    Horus
    Hotei
    Huitzilopochtli
    Hsi-Wang-Mu
    Hygeia
    Inanna
    Inti
    Iris
    Ishtar
    Isis
    Ixtab
    Izanaki
    Izanami
    Jesus
    Juno
    Jupiter
    Juturna
    Kagutsuchi
    Kartikeya
    Khepri
    Ki
    Kingu
    Kinich Ahau
    Kishar
    Krishna
    Kuan-yin
    Kukulcan
    Kvasir
    Lakshmi
    Leto
    Liza
    Loki
    Lugh
    Luna
    Magna Mater
    Maia
    Marduk
    Mars
    Mazu
    Medb
    Mercury
    Mimir
    Min
    Minerva
    Mithras
    Morrigan
    Mot
    Mummu
    Muses
    Nammu
    Nanna
    Nanna (Norse)
    Nanse
    Neith
    Nemesis
    Nephthys
    Neptune
    Nergal
    Ninazu
    Ninhurzag
    Nintu
    Ninurta
    Njord
    Nugua
    Nut
    Odin
    Ohkuninushi
    Ohyamatsumi
    Orgelmir
    Osiris
    Ostara
    Pan
    Parvati
    Phaethon
    Phoebe
    Phoebus Apollo
    Pilumnus
    Poseidon
    Quetzalcoatl
    Rama
    Re
    Rhea
    Sabazius
    Sarasvati
    Selene
    Shiva
    Seshat
    Seti (Set)
    Shamash
    Shapsu
    Shen Yi
    Shiva
    Shu
    Si-Wang-Mu
    Sin
    Sirona
    Sol
    Surya
    Susanoh
    Tawaret
    Tefnut
    Tezcatlipoca
    Thanatos
    Thor
    Thoth
    Tiamat
    Tianhou
    Tlaloc
    Tonatiuh
    Toyo-Uke-Bime
    Tyche
    Tyr
    Utu
    Uzume
    Vediovis
    Venus
    Vesta
    Vishnu
    Volturnus
    Vulcan
    Xipe
    Xi Wang-mu
    Xochipilli
    Xochiquetzal
    Yam
    Yarikh
    Yhwh
    Ymir
    Yu-huang
    Yum Kimil
    Zeus

    Again, is it not extremely arrogant to believe that out of all these Gods, the God you worship is the one and only "correct" God?
    abc

  12. #10
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    So you guys believe that something made this massive universe, all of these trillions of stars, billions of galaxies specifically for one spec of dust (Earth)? Not even that but for a spec of dist (Humans) on a spec of dust (Earth). More accurately, a piece of a spec of dust (insert religion) within a spec of dust (Humans) floating on a spec of dust (Earth). Forgive me for saying so, but is that not arrogance beyond arrogance? (I don't mean to insult with that last sentence, I just couldn't think of a nice way to put it.)
    Thinking of how to say things nicely must be very difficult for you, I'd imagine.

    First: Is it the same sort of arrogance to suppose that human life--specs of dust on a rock in a tiny pocket of a tiny portion of a tiny galaxy among billions--has special meaning?

    Second: It may indeed be arrogance to think that God created the universe only for us. We aren't the most important entities; God is. God called His creation "good" before humans ever showed up on the scene.


    Have you read, like, any Christian theology on this issue? Any of the super-old Church fathers and theologians from centuries and millennia ago? Any of the modern ones from, say, the last fifty years?

    But, hey, if you've heard one side of the argument and like it, why bother listening to the other side, right?


    Here's an idea: if you're going to listen to the best and brightest atheists, maybe you should see what the best and brightest Christians have to say (hint: they might not be on internet debate forums).

    ---------- Post added at 01:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

    Again, is it not extremely arrogant to believe that out of all these Gods, the God you worship is the one and only "correct" God?
    ...uh, how?

    Let's think of it this way: Each person assigns the value "true" or "false" to each religion. You're saying "Isn't it arrogant to think that your own assignment of values is true?" Wouldn't it be just as arrogant for atheists who think that they have the one and only "correct" assignment of truth values?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  13. #11
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Thinking of how to say things nicely must be very difficult for you, I'd imagine.
    It is, thanks for understanding.

    First: Is it the same sort of arrogance to suppose that human life--specs of dust on a rock in a tiny pocket of a tiny portion of a tiny galaxy among billions--has special meaning?
    That is arrogant. Humans are only special because we do not know of any other intelligent life form out there. So we are unique, there is only one race like us, as far as we know. However, I don't think humans are special, there are many species in the universe that are intelligent, we just haven't met them yet.

    Second: It may indeed be arrogance to think that God created the universe only for us. We aren't the most important entities; God is. God called His creation "good" before humans ever showed up on the scene.
    Okay...

    Have you read, like, any Christian theology on this issue? Any of the super-old Church fathers and theologians from centuries and millennia ago? Any of the modern ones from, say, the last fifty years?
    I am not arguing against religion. I am arguing against a belief in God, any God, take a pick from the long yet not exhaustive list in my post above. I do not need to read stuff from theologians on their specific religion. They all forward a belief in God in some way. The way they do it is irrelevant, the point is that God does not exist. To prove this point all I need to know is the idea of God, which is very simplistic. Here is the gist of it. There is a being that created everything and it did so just for us. Also, it is super powerful and watches and judges us in some way.

    But, hey, if you've heard one side of the argument and like it, why bother listening to the other side, right?
    I have heard the other side, it sounds ridiculous. In fact I would laugh if it were not such a serious matter.

    Here's an idea: if you're going to listen to the best and brightest atheists, maybe you should see what the best and brightest Christians have to say (hint: they might not be on internet debate forums).
    Good advice, but I don't care what one specific religion has to say, I am arguing against the concept of God in general. If I argued against all Gods individually, I would be here my whole life since there are so many different Gods.

    ---------- Post added at 01:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------



    ...uh, how?

    Let's think of it this way: Each person assigns the value "true" or "false" to each religion. You're saying "Isn't it arrogant to think that your own assignment of values is true?" Wouldn't it be just as arrogant for atheists who think that they have the one and only "correct" assignment of truth values?
    If you assign false to every God on my list except one, I have to ask why that one? You cannot give me any reason except that I have faith that that is the correct one. In other words you have no idea why. I think it more accurate to assign false to all of the options, at least there is reasoning behind that move.
    abc

  14. #12
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    It is, thanks for understanding.



    That is arrogant. Humans are only special because we do not know of any other intelligent life form out there. So we are unique, there is only one race like us, as far as we know. However, I don't think humans are special, there are many species in the universe that are intelligent, we just haven't met them yet.
    How do you know that there are other intelligent species in the universe?

    And I don't think you understood my question. I wasn't asking whether humans have 'special meaning' compared to other intelligent species. I'm asking whether humans have 'special meaning' compared to rocks or water or ferns. Why should we care about things like murder or rape or theft, if everything's so cosmically meaningless?

    I am not arguing against religion. I am arguing against a belief in God, any God, take a pick from the long yet not exhaustive list in my post above. I do not need to read stuff from theologians on their specific religion. They all forward a belief in God in some way. The way they do it is irrelevant, the point is that God does not exist. To prove this point all I need to know is the idea of God, which is very simplistic. Here is the gist of it. There is a being that created everything and it did so just for us. Also, it is super powerful and watches and judges us in some way.
    Well, you obviously haven't read the existential case for God.

    I have heard the other side, it sounds ridiculous. In fact I would laugh if it were not such a serious matter.
    That's because you're arguing against a childish caricature of theism.

    Good advice, but I don't care what one specific religion has to say, I am arguing against the concept of God in general. If I argued against all Gods individually, I would be here my whole life since there are so many different Gods.
    My point is that you aren't familiar with the various ways in which theists construct meaning (which you have challenged despite your ignorance), nor the cases they make for God. You seem to value logic and reason, so I'm surprised (not really) that you haven't read the work of Analytic Christian philosophers like Alvin Plantinga.

    If you assign false to every God on my list except one, I have to ask why that one? You cannot give me any reason except that I have faith that that is the correct one. In other words you have no idea why. I think it more accurate to assign false to all of the options, at least there is reasoning behind that move.
    You think that your particular value-assignment is the "one and only correct one". Just like I think that my value-assignment is the "one and only correct one".

    More importantly, though, don't presume to know why I believe the way I do. How can you possibly lecture theists about arrogance while simultaneously being so imperious? You've laid claim to knowledge you cannot possibly possess (unless you can read my mind), and yet you ridicule me for having faith. People in glass houses shouldn't be hypocritical arrogant douchebags.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  15. #13
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by My Xenocide
    So you guys believe that something made this massive universe, all of these trillions of stars, billions of galaxies specifically for one spec of dust (Earth)? Not even that but for a spec of dist (Humans) on a spec of dust (Earth). More accurately, a piece of a spec of dust (insert religion) within a spec of dust (Humans) floating on a spec of dust (Earth). Forgive me for saying so, but is that not arrogance beyond arrogance? (I don't mean to insult with that last sentence, I just couldn't think of a nice way to put it.)
    Thats not what I believe and I would appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth.

    Did you even read what I said?

    I said, the Universe was not created for me, it was created for God. I just happen to be a part of God's creation, a small part of it.

    We believe that we were created as part of a greater creation, made for God's glory. That is not arrogant, that is humble. In such a view, God is the center, not man.

    In contrast Sagan says the we are the keepers of the meaning of life. Speak of arrogance. The Christian says that God alone holds the meaning.

    Sagan and your argument of arrogance is hypocrisy.

  16. #14
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Well, you obviously haven't read the existential case for God.
    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    You seem to value logic and reason, so I'm surprised (not really) that you haven't read the work of Analytic Christian philosophers like Alvin Plantinga.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    More importantly, though, don't presume to know why I believe the way I do. How can you possibly lecture theists about arrogance while simultaneously being so imperious? You've laid claim to knowledge you cannot possibly possess (unless you can read my mind), and yet you ridicule me for having faith. People in glass houses shouldn't be hypocritical arrogant douchebags.
    Anybody notice something?
    Udabindu yathāpi pokkhare
    Padume vāri yathā na lippati,
    Evaṃ muni no palippati
    Yadidaṃ diṭṭhasutaṃ mutesu vā.

  17. #15
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    That you prefer the "single lane" method of reasoning (only choosing 1 side of the story...what is most convenient) before coming to the [false] conclusion? If not...then what?
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  18. #16
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    Here you go Apok. Not much of an OP, it was more your remark about evidence that caught my eye, and seeing as this is the debate discussion forum, I thought it relevant to expand some on what I feel has been lacking from Christians, using you and Chad as examples.

    Looking forward to see the evidence. I have googled for evidence before, mind you, and all I can find is apologetics and speculations. You would think it would be easy to present the evidence in question. What happens often is that of course there are semantic issues with the word "evidence", but I think it is understood as to what is "solid" evidence (e.g. physical proof, consistent and well documented historical proof, etc.) and what is not. And then there is the next issue of having the Christian set of criterion for "evidence" applied to and contrasted with other religions, such as Hinduism, which has from what I can gather the very same set of criterion (i.e. holy book--which itself is a supposed oral history account of eye witnesses anecdotes several thousand years ago--and "faith" whatever that is, and the very same appeals to flawed arguments such as the ontological argument and the cosmological argument).

  19. #17
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    I responded to Dio's post PZ. Nothing big of course. I think you have a thread that asks for specific instances of evidence. I'll put together something and post it there.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  20. #18
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    So you guys believe that something made this massive universe, all of these trillions of stars, billions of galaxies specifically for one spec of dust (Earth)? Not even that but for a spec of dist (Humans) on a spec of dust (Earth). More accurately, a piece of a spec of dust (insert religion) within a spec of dust (Humans) floating on a spec of dust (Earth). Forgive me for saying so, but is that not arrogance beyond arrogance? (I don't mean to insult with that last sentence, I just couldn't think of a nice way to put it.)[COLOR="Silver"]
    This is a straw man argument. No one has supported any kind of belief like this.

    Again, is it not extremely arrogant to believe that out of all these Gods, the God you worship is the one and only "correct" God?
    This is a logical fallacy called moving the goalposts.
    Moving the goalposts (or shifting the goalposts) is an expression meaning changing the target of a process or competition by one side in order to gain advantage.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalpost

    The discussion has been only about whether God exists, not about which God is the correct one.

    One of the posters recommended that you do some studying to find out what Christians really believe and I agree with that. I think that you should also study logic.

  21. #19
    Inanisvoid
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    I just joined, and this is one of the first posts I have read.
    I am going to try to speculate in an unbiased manner, but I AM human, and whether you believe in any form of higher power or not, I am sure you all agree that humans are easily influenced, imperfect, and biased. That said...

    Personnaly, I see no evidence, no SOLID evidence behind the possibility of the existance of a higher power. However, there is no evidence to disprove it. One thing that slightly stands out to me is that the creation of the idea of a higher power is something that would appeal to the innate insecurity of human kind, but this still PROVES absolutely nothing. There are certainly countering ideas on the side of creationism. For me, it comes down to one question. "Are you willing to put faith in something with absolutely no facts?" If you are, I cannot argue with anyone who believes in any form of a higher power. I, personnaly, find this to be difficult. Thus my personal beliefes. The only thing that bothers me is when people attempt to convert instead of inform. Which is why I have attempted to post this in an unbiased manner.

    To your question "Isn't it obvious?" I would say no, it isn't obvious in any way. Do I have my opinion? Yes. Do I agree with your arguments? Mostly. But it is only speculation, around a completely not obvious question.


    Thanks for reading my opinion!

  22. #20
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    Re: Isn't It Obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    This is a straw man argument. No one has supported any kind of belief like this.
    That is not a straw man. You may not believe what I said, but when you get right down to it, anyone who believes in God essentially believes what I wrote. They probably just never thought about it in the way I presented it.

    This is a logical fallacy called moving the goalposts.
    Moving the goalposts (or shifting the goalposts) is an expression meaning changing the target of a process or competition by one side in order to gain advantage.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalpost

    The discussion has been only about whether God exists, not about which God is the correct one.
    Perhaps, but that doesn't do any harm to my point.

    One of the posters recommended that you do some studying to find out what Christians really believe and I agree with that. I think that you should also study logic.
    I am arguing against God and not Christianity, so there is no need for me to study Christianity. At least not for the purposes of this thread. I have studied logic, I took a symbolic logic course recently receiving an A. So I think I do know a little something about logic.
    abc

 

 
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