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  1. #21
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanadu Moo View Post
    Typical abdication of responsibility. "We were just protesting nicely when the police had to come and spoil our party, so then we had no choice but to riot and break the law. It's the police's fault for getting us angry at them." That's totally illogical in terms of personal responsibility, JohnAdams. Have fun trying to defend that position. I'll have fun watching it too.
    That's not a position, that's an explanation of what happened. If you go back and look, the protests started out as largely peaceful, however they quickley turned violent after the combination of looters and police showed up.

    If you want my position I'll give it to you. Rioters and Looters are breaking the law and should be punished accordingly, the police should also bear some 'personal responsiblity' for not stopping the rioters. The police who shot the unarmed man, which started all of this, should also be punished accordingly. Fringe groups are people too and should be treated as such, criminals have rights, the police are there to protect the freedom and justice for ALL, not just the people they agree with. The UK has freedom of speech too, even if you do not agree with what is being said, people have the right to say what ever they want. Attack the idea, not the person, labeling these people as 'feral dogs' does nothing to further the position in the opposition to me, but only serves to degrade a persons POV.

  2. #22
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by mattbennett4 View Post
    i believe they resorted to that because they thought... this is how people protest in this day and age. Due to the action in the middle east. You can never be angry or frustrated at the government - only furious and hostile.
    Those in the uk have seen how citizens react to the government in other european countries... and decide to react the same way to the point where they don't even know what theyre so angry about.
    Your overanalysing it. These riots arent about protest, or politics, they are about thugs going on the rob because they thought they could get away with it. Not just thugs either, some ordinary middle class professionals "just got caught up in it" to quote recent testimony from Manchester. Its mob mentality that went overboard. It descended into a spree of lawlessness never seen on such a scale before, the police were overwhelmed and unprepared for it (why should they be?)

    As for protesting against cuts and so called austerity measures, I actaully saw a guy on TV wearing (a face mask), 150 trainers with a 300 smartphone protesting that hes struggling to pay his mortgage. Mortgage FFS! So a bank sees fit to extend him at least a hundred grand of equity and hes so hard done by. Only in the UK can you find this sense of entitlement.

    Feral humans preying on civilized people and businesses should be treated like feral dogs. Unfortunately, the Brits have had their guns taken away and can't protect themselves against the rampaging beasts who deserve to be put down.
    The original protest may have been legitimate, the shooting of any citizen by the police is automatically considered an overreaction in this country, and rightly so - putting the role of judge jury and executioner in the hands of a copper in the middle of a heated moment is a horrific prospect, just ask the De Menezes family. Whether they were right to shoot him or not in hindsight is another debate. If he pointed a gun at police, replica or not, he had to expect a reaction. We dont actually know whether this happened though.

    I dont always support the police, nor the level of CCTV in our towns, but kudos for the Greater Manchester police for the efficient rounding up of rioters. They may have been overwhelemed and outclassed on the day, but they are now relentless in rounding them up from CCTV footage. Theres a queue forming over at Strangeways


    The most shocking thing I have seen in all this was the reaction of some local groups going out to defend mosques from looters. They actually turned out in mobs wielding swords - this is not only an escalation in violence in a mgnitude of leagues (had they have been used), but is just adding provocation to an already violent situation.
    Last edited by Ecks; August 12th, 2011 at 07:23 PM. Reason: Additional rant

  3. #23
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by Swindall View Post
    That is true, but that wasn't the point you were making.

    No Aspo, you did try and group together English people as a whole via culture using football hooligans as the defining behaviour of said culture. As you can see below...

    This is a confused piece of writing Aspo. Are you saying there are many different cultures in England? Because in your previous post you grouped England together with ONE culture.
    I don't see how that is confusing Swin. You get many kinds of cultures within any country and people usually group themselves into some kind of culture or catagory. The soccer hooligans for instance is whole culture on their own.

    Although you agreed that it is not acceptable for people to actually resolve to violence to get their point across, you still try to defend their actions.

    The point I was trying to make is that the behaviour of these people are not new to the UK at all since many other groups rioted before and it isn't something they picked up from any other country at all. It is as simple as that.

    I agree with Clive on this issue. It is clear from the debate so far that you are trying to defend these people's actions. Similar things happened in my country before and I certainly will never try to defend their utter stupidity because to resolve to violence and looting is simply idiotic. I hope the Police get all the culprets and I hope they all get appropriate punishment for their actions.

    I can't help but to wonder if it is the way these youth have been raised that makes them like that. Didn't their parents taught them to show respect for others? I live in a 3rd world country and my expectations for the people living in it is much higher than your expectations are for the people living in yours. You live in what I believed to be a first world country, but obviously I am totally wrong. Maybe you need to revisit your whole idea of what is right and wrong and rather try to find a way to actually get youth to change their attitutde than to actually support them in their hate towards law enforcement.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    I can't help but to wonder if it is the way these youth have been raised that makes them like that. Didn't their parents taught them to show respect for others? I live in a 3rd world country and my expectations for the people living in it is much higher than your expectations are for the people living in yours. You live in what I believed to be a first world country, but obviously I am totally wrong.
    The role of parents has been discussed at length on this issue, and theres some mileage in it. Here, strict parenting has been demonised by a certain segment of the popular press - with a perception by parents that they are powerless to chastise their children, with apparent blame being levelled at the government. The government does not set guidelines on how children should be raised by parents - that seems to be the job of self elected champions like Esther Rantzen.

    Its true that teachers are bound up by liberal regulation regarding children, but this is in response to abuses of the past. Although there is less coherence in family life, particularly amongst the poor and this can be partly attributed to government policy, this is not restricted to just the UK, this is modern society showing its ugly side.

    As for Britain being "Third World" (incidentally, the terminology for this changed back in the 80s - nobody calls it third world any more), this is not governed by the dignity (or lack of) of its citizens but by economic status.

    So apart from making sweeping generalisations about British culture of which you appear to know nothing, you are making inaccurate comments about the economic status about which you appear to know nothing. Is that deliberate?
    Last edited by Ecks; August 13th, 2011 at 03:37 AM. Reason: typo

  5. #25
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecks View Post
    The role of parents has been discussed at length on this issue, and theres some mileage in it. Here, strict parenting has been demonised by a certain segment of the popular press - with a perception by parents that they are powerless to chastise their children, with apparent blame being levelled at the government. The government does not set guidelines on how children should be raised by parents - that seems to be the job of self elected champions like Esther Rantzen.

    Its true that teachers are bound up by liberal regulation regarding children, but this is in response to abuses of the past. Although there is less coherence in family life, particularly amongst the poor and this can be partly attributed to government policy, this is not restricted to just the UK, this is modern society showing its ugly side.

    As for Britain being "Third World" (incidentally, the terminology for this changed back in the 80s - nobody calls it third world any more), this is not governed by the dignity (or lack of) of its citizens but by economic status.

    So apart from making sweeping generalisations about British culture of which you appear to know nothing, you are making inaccurate comments about the economic status about which you appear to know nothing. Is that deliberate?
    Maybe you need to read my argument again because I didn't say Britain is a third world country. Also, there is a very strong relation between a country's economic status and the education level of the people living in it.

    You are creating a Straw Man.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    Maybe you need to read my argument again because I didn't say Britain is a third world country.
    OK, Im guessing from your profile (Afrikaans?) and comments that English may not be your first language, so Im prepared to give you the benefit of some doubt in my interpretations. Here are your words:
    You live in what I believed to be a first world country, but obviously I am totally wrong.
    For me to "build a straw man" I would have to extrapolate from your comments something you didnt say, or take what you did say to an extreme. I cannot read any other interpretation into the bold section, or did you really mean "obviously I am totally right"

    Also, there is a very strong relation between a country's economic status and the education level of the people living in it.
    You are creating a Straw Man.
    Im not sure what your point is here. Are you likening educational standards in Britain to that of a developing country based on the actions of a few mindless imbeciles? Or are you saying Britain has a highly educated population because it is "First World".

    Here you say:
    English (UK) people in general have a total different culture than any other nation in the world.
    Well that seems to be an essential thing about culture. Its different everywhere, Im not sure which particular aspect of it is different than "every other country", unless you mean that the English...

    are reacting ... in the same way as the soccer hooligans in the UK, so it really is not something new to that country IMHO.
    and...
    I saw some of them behave in a similar fashion before. And it is a cultural thing.
    Here, Im interpreting that British culture is defined by "hooliganism" and that this seems to be unique to Britain. Its true that Britain has had problems with soccer hooligans in the past, but then all European countries have. Im wondering what specific experience you have of this, only Britain is also the only European country that doesnt have fencing around its soccer pitches, which is kind of counter intuitive to your belief that hooliganism is rife is it not?

    In any case, you are likening recent events to bouts of soccer hooliganism, which I suppose is an easy mistake to make. Wrong though.

    To me it seems that the Police is hiding behind technology to hide their own weaknesses.
    It is obvious they are not prepared for riots of that nature and BBM is now their scapegoat.
    The police are not scapegoating any messenger service, the question about BBM by the police was whether they could stop it during an operation to prevent an escalation of rioting. It has nothing to do with "blame", they asked the same thing about reporting by the press, to wait until they had control to prevent others from joining in.

  7. #27
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecks View Post
    OK, Im guessing from your profile (Afrikaans?) and comments that English may not be your first language, so Im prepared to give you the benefit of some doubt in my interpretations. Here are your words:
    Let me quote you...

    As for Britain being "Third World" (incidentally, the terminology for this changed back in the 80s - nobody calls it third world any more), this is not governed by the dignity (or lack of) of its citizens but by economic status.

    Above you stated that I said that Britain is a "Third World". That is the straw man you are creating. So if any of us have a problem with English, it should be you. By saying that I was wrong about them being a First World country is obviously sarcasm. If you don't know what sarcasm is, I will gladly oblige. I NEVER said they are a Third World, but what I essentially meant (which is supposed to be obvious between the lines) is that I expected more from a First World country. The behaviour they make themselves guilty of is typical of people who have no respect for their country's laws or have any trust in their Police Force. Something I see regularly happening in my country (which I already stated is actually the THIRD WORLD country....if you could read correctly).

    For me to "build a straw man" I would have to extrapolate from your comments something you didnt say, or take what you did say to an extreme. I cannot read any other interpretation into the bold section, or did you really mean "obviously I am totally right"
    Explained it above.

    Im not sure what your point is here. Are you likening educational standards in Britain to that of a developing country based on the actions of a few mindless imbeciles? Or are you saying Britain has a highly educated population because it is "First World".
    They are supposed to be well educated because they are a First World country. The point is, as I said above, I will expect better behaviour from a first world country's citizens. Do you disagree with that? Do you disagree that higher educated people, who have access to excellent schools and universities, and that live in a well developed country where infrastructure is developed and everything is available are suppose to actually protect that very same infrastructure, or should they demolish it like these idiots? Is it unfair of me to expect more of such a country?

    Here you say:

    Well that seems to be an essential thing about culture. Its different everywhere, Im not sure which particular aspect of it is different than "every other country", unless you mean that the English...

    and...

    Here, Im interpreting that British culture is defined by "hooliganism" and that this seems to be unique to Britain. Its true that Britain has had problems with soccer hooligans in the past, but then all European countries have. Im wondering what specific experience you have of this, only Britain is also the only European country that doesnt have fencing around its soccer pitches, which is kind of counter intuitive to your belief that hooliganism is rife is it not?
    Did I say that ALL of them are soccer hooligans? No.

    Did I say that it is behaviour I have seen in that country before? Yes

    Please differentiate and read through my explanations already provided to Swindall.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by Swindall
    Some interesting points raised. If you think the Police had nothing to do with this, that they acted appropriately and continue to act appropriately in any and all occasions. You are out of touch with what happens in London if you're a certain age and colour (in certain circumstances).

    This man sums it up VERY WELL. Try and give it an ACTUAL listen instead of just forwarding through it.
    OK, I listened to the comments in the video. I didn't detect an argument in there other than admitted speculation on this incident and a history of oppression. The police are just symptomatic here. Help me out with the correlation. If these people felt oppressed by the police, then what sense does it make to attack civilians and destroy stores and loot? It's got to be something much deeper than what's on the surface.

    My inclination is that this incident is only being used as an excuse to commit violent acts of protest. That's why I say it's much deeper than the police. Notice that you mischaracterized my assertion that it goes far beyond the police. You said I claimed that the police had nothing to do with this. I'd like to see someone try to make a serious case that the police "caused" or "instigated" the riots.


    ---------- Post added at 08:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAdams View Post
    That's not a position, that's an explanation of what happened. If you go back and look, the protests started out as largely peaceful, however they quickley turned violent after the combination of looters and police showed up.
    You're not recognizing that you're adding your interpretation of cause and effect to the process of events. You can't just say "A happened and B happened, therefore A caused B." What happened is apparent, but the cause is far from established. Just because the violence didn't start until the police arrived doesn't mean that it's the police's fault. There are many variables in play here. Reaction against the mere presence of the police is a main one.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAdams
    the police should also bear some 'personal responsiblity' for not stopping the rioters.
    I won't know how to comment on the police's responsibility until you explain how they should have acted to stop the rioters.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAdams
    The police who shot the unarmed man, which started all of this, should also be punished accordingly.
    Careful with the way you word that, because it's key. The police shooting the unarmed man didn't necessarily start anything (aka cause). It instigated a riot, but remember that the rioters willfully chose to act that way.

    Fringe groups are people too and should be treated as such, criminals have rights, the police are there to protect the freedom and justice for ALL, not just the people they agree with.
    I think it's irrelevant to be saying "not just the people they agree with." This isn't a matter of who the police "agree" with. It's a matter of who is breaking the law. The police's response was because the people were breaking the law. It wasn't because the police had a difference of opinion with them on political matters. Be very careful how you word stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAdams
    The UK has freedom of speech too, even if you do not agree with what is being said, people have the right to say what ever they want. Attack the idea, not the person, labeling these people as 'feral dogs' does nothing to further the position in the opposition to me, but only serves to degrade a persons POV.
    OK, let's revisit the first part of the above paragraph... Note that the people who called the rioters feral dogs also have the right to say whatever they want (within reason and circumstance), even if you do not agree with what is being said (your own words). So your argument crumbles under its own weight. You're proposing a freedom of speech that applies only to certain people, but other people can't say what they want against those people. Which is worse rioting "free speech" that destroys cars and buildings and kills people, or degrading "free speech" that calls such purveyors 'feral'? It's very odd to me that you would spend most of your criticism focused on the latter, as if it were worse than what the rioters did.
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    but what I essentially meant (which is supposed to be obvious between the lines) is that I expected more from a First World country.
    The behaviour they make themselves guilty of is typical of people who have no respect for their country's laws or have any trust in their Police Force.

    They are supposed to be well educated because they are a First World country.

    The point is, as I said above, I will expect better behaviour from a first world country's citizens. Do you disagree with that?
    Do you disagree that higher educated people, who have access to excellent schools and universities, and that live in a well developed country
    where infrastructure is developed and everything is available are suppose to actually protect that very same infrastructure,
    or should they demolish it like these idiots? Is it unfair of me to expect more of such a country?
    Fair enough. Sarcasm doesnt come across well in writing. I dont really disagree with much of the above.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    Did I say that ALL of them are soccer hooligans? No.

    Did I say that it is behaviour I have seen in that country before? Yes
    I didnt say that you did. I said you seem to be identifying soccer hooliganism as unique to the UK or some part of UK culture, which is wrong. You then go on to relate the recent violence as typical of soccer hooliganism, which is also wrong. Im guessing that "Behaviour before" realtes to a hooligan incident that you have heard about, unless you are referring to the previous Tottenham riots in 1981, which were very different in terms of causes and effects.

    ---------- Post added at 05:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 PM ----------

    The police shooting the unarmed man
    For the sake of accuracy, we dont yet know whether this man was armed or not. First reports said that he had shot at police and a bullet was recovered from a police radio. Subsequently, there were reports that he was carrying a replica, and that the gunshot heard was fired by the police. If either of these prove to be true, the man cannot be considered unarmed.


    didn't necessarily start anything (aka cause).
    I agree. It was a feeble excuse dished up by rioters. Rioters in other areas couldnt even name the dead man when asked.


    the people who called the rioters feral dogs also have the right to say whatever they want
    They do, but on here people are judged by the words they use. Blanket labelling thousands of people as "feral dogs" is disingenuous, it betrays a certain ignorance and therefore diminishes the speakers POV. He may have the right to say it, but we then have the right to call it horse**** and give it no further consideration.

    Which is worse — rioting "free speech" that destroys cars and buildings and kills people, or degrading "free speech" that calls such purveyors 'feral'?
    False thingy (Im still learning the debate terms). One is an illegal act and under debate and the other is irrelevant to furthering this debate, going as far as to poison intelligent discussion about it. In that context the second is worse.

    Heres another comparison: deaths aside, which is worse: 1) Rioters smashing up some shops 2) Politicians systemically stealing millions from the public purse in the form of illegal expenses. Talk about role models.

  10. #30
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecks View Post
    Fair enough. Sarcasm doesnt come across well in writing. I dont really disagree with much of the above.
    Good.




    I didnt say that you did. I said you seem to be identifying soccer hooliganism as unique to the UK or some part of UK culture, which is wrong. You then go on to relate the recent violence as typical of soccer hooliganism, which is also wrong. Im guessing that "Behaviour before" realtes to a hooligan incident that you have heard about, unless you are referring to the previous Tottenham riots in 1981, which were very different in terms of causes and effects.
    No, I don't say hooliganism is unique to them. All I am saying is that the behaviour is not new. It is not the first time I see people in that country doing things like that. It is as simple as that.
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Respected Historian David Starkey had something to say about the London Riots. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517 What I got from him was that the issues in London were the result of cultural identification, specifically gangsterism exemplified through lifestyle choices. The author of the book attacked Starkey on some of his points which as far as i could tell were really misplaced. Personally I do not understand the message that the hooligans (i'll explain in a moment) are trying to send home. In Egypt its was plain as day, out with the current leadership or we will continue to cause anarchy and make civil rule impossible, why must the leadership go? because of this this this this. i would say that rioting is the response of unmet demands or an unreasonable compromise terms. But in London, no demands were even made. These children, incapable of intelligent thought, didn't say that they want the two officers responsible for the shooting removed from police service or something similar. They did not even spell out that hey since this appears to be the trend for us marginalized people this is what we would like to see happen to improve our present situation. There twisted line of thinking was No...I'm marginalized, money is hard to come by, i will help myself to a new pair of trainers. Fine we indulge them and let them get it out of their systems, because hey we understand you are frustrated; day two, day three, day four and you are still stealing sneakers unable to see that when all this is done, assuming you weren't caught, you will still be in the same situation with no hope of improvement in sight. Perhaps that's the perspective that English parliamentarians should address first, one of no hope amongst marginalized groups.
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by theJackal View Post
    Respected Historian David Starkey had something to say about the London Riots. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517 What I got from him was that the issues in London were the result of cultural identification, specifically gangsterism exemplified through lifestyle choices. The author of the book attacked Starkey on some of his points which as far as i could tell were really misplaced. Personally I do not understand the message that the hooligans (i'll explain in a moment) are trying to send home. In Egypt its was plain as day, out with the current leadership or we will continue to cause anarchy and make civil rule impossible, why must the leadership go? because of this this this this. i would say that rioting is the response of unmet demands or an unreasonable compromise terms. But in London, no demands were even made. These children, incapable of intelligent thought, didn't say that they want the two officers responsible for the shooting removed from police service or something similar. They did not even spell out that hey since this appears to be the trend for us marginalized people this is what we would like to see happen to improve our present situation. There twisted line of thinking was No...I'm marginalized, money is hard to come by, i will help myself to a new pair of trainers. Fine we indulge them and let them get it out of their systems, because hey we understand you are frustrated; day two, day three, day four and you are still stealing sneakers unable to see that when all this is done, assuming you weren't caught, you will still be in the same situation with no hope of improvement in sight. Perhaps that's the perspective that English parliamentarians should address first, one of no hope amongst marginalized groups.
    Strange, the message I got from what he said is that whitle people behaved like black people. That is quite a racist remark, don't you think?

    I will agree with you that they really didn't send out a message at all though. Or at least it wasn't clearly communicated.
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    Re: Rioters in Europe need to get over themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by theJackal View Post
    Respected Historian David Starkey had something to say about the London Riots. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517 What I got from him was that the issues in London were the result of cultural identification, specifically gangsterism exemplified through lifestyle choices. The author of the book attacked Starkey on some of his points which as far as i could tell were really misplaced. Personally I do not understand the message that the hooligans (i'll explain in a moment) are trying to send home. In Egypt its was plain as day, out with the current leadership or we will continue to cause anarchy and make civil rule impossible, why must the leadership go? because of this this this this. i would say that rioting is the response of unmet demands or an unreasonable compromise terms. But in London, no demands were even made. These children, incapable of intelligent thought, didn't say that they want the two officers responsible for the shooting removed from police service or something similar. They did not even spell out that hey since this appears to be the trend for us marginalized people this is what we would like to see happen to improve our present situation. There twisted line of thinking was No...I'm marginalized, money is hard to come by, i will help myself to a new pair of trainers. Fine we indulge them and let them get it out of their systems, because hey we understand you are frustrated; day two, day three, day four and you are still stealing sneakers unable to see that when all this is done, assuming you weren't caught, you will still be in the same situation with no hope of improvement in sight. Perhaps that's the perspective that English parliamentarians should address first, one of no hope amongst marginalized groups.
    Well said, Jackal. The unpatterned behavior of the rioters smacks of opportunism, looking for an excuse to riot. The behavior also resembles that of spoiled and coddled children, who have been spoon-fed and therefore aren't grateful for their own abilities and take little responsibility for their situations. And a part of that is the government's fault for coddling them. But ultimately each person needs to be responsible for his own poor behavior.
    anything could be an illusion and we wouldn't know the difference... proof schmoof...

 

 
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