Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Asia
    Posts
    1,961
    Post Thanks / Like

    Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    This thread is for all discussion concerning the debate between Bible Defender and Roderick Usher.

  2. #2
    Registered User

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Manteca, CA
    Posts
    1,443
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    I'm guessing he's going to get called out on this bit:
    2. If there are multiple miracle claims which are ontologically equivalent, which use the same basis of evidence, the belief in one over the other is arbitrary, and does not follow as a logical consequence.

    3. I could contrive a history of the same nature. If my contrived history produces the same evidence of supernaturalism as Christianity, why believe in one over the other? Does this not indicate a flaw in one’s logic? To support the claim of supernaturalism, there must be evidence that distinguishes it from contrivance. My opponent may retort, “any bit of history could be contrived - George Washington could be contrived.” But this is not only a historical claim - it’s a METAPHYSICAL claim!
    It's hard to imagine any contemporary event with the same amount of historical evidence present. Not only that, but that he can only contrive such a thing, doesn't appear to prove anything.
    There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
    Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib

  3. #3
    Roderick Usher
    Guest

    Re: Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    You are missing the point. But I'll try to explain this tomorrow when I have more time.

  4. #4
    Roderick Usher
    Guest

    Re: Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    A contemporary “parallel” (at least in the criteria established by BD) is Sathya Sai Baba. Take, for instance, the claim of physical disappearances and bilocation. Physical disappearances - there is limited circumstantial evidence (if this can be even counted as circumstantial evidence in the first place): he was in one place, and then he was not; and anecdotal evidence (or hearsay evidence if we are making the claim): that of witnessing it and there being no natural explanation for what happened (e.g. he did not use a trapdoor). Bilocation - completely anecdotal evidence (someone saw Sai Baba in another place at the same time). The resurrection relies on very limited circumstantial evidence (the tomb was empty) and anecdotal evidence (James and Paul saw the Risen Christ). The other “evidence” for the resurrection is inapplicable here, as BD already established a criteria. Now, compare the anecdotal evidence of bilocation to that of the resurrection. In both cases, people report seeing someone who cannot, for naturalistic reasons, appear to them. This evidence is ontologically equivalent. Sathya Sai Baba is a renowned miracle-worker Guru. Why dismiss Sai Baba and believe in the miracles of Christ, or vice versa? Without complicating the matter further, I will leave it at that (though I can anticipate some of your responses).

    You say contriving such a thing doesn’t prove anything. That would be true if this is just a historical claim, but it is also a metaphysical claim. I could elaborate on this if you would like.

  5. #5
    Registered User

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Manteca, CA
    Posts
    1,443
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roderick Usher View Post
    A contemporary “parallel” (at least in the criteria established by BD) is Sathya Sai Baba. Take, for instance, the claim of physical disappearances and bilocation. Physical disappearances - there is limited circumstantial evidence (if this can be even counted as circumstantial evidence in the first place): he was in one place, and then he was not; and anecdotal evidence (or hearsay evidence if we are making the claim): that of witnessing it and there being no natural explanation for what happened (e.g. he did not use a trapdoor). Bilocation - completely anecdotal evidence (someone saw Sai Baba in another place at the same time). The resurrection relies on very limited circumstantial evidence (the tomb was empty) and anecdotal evidence (James and Paul saw the Risen Christ). The other “evidence” for the resurrection is inapplicable here, as BD already established a criteria. Now, compare the anecdotal evidence of bilocation to that of the resurrection. In both cases, people report seeing someone who cannot, for naturalistic reasons, appear to them. This evidence is ontologically equivalent. Sathya Sai Baba is a renowned miracle-worker Guru. Why dismiss Sai Baba and believe in the miracles of Christ, or vice versa? Without complicating the matter further, I will leave it at that (though I can anticipate some of your responses).

    You say contriving such a thing doesn’t prove anything. That would be true if this is just a historical claim, but it is also a metaphysical claim. I could elaborate on this if you would like.
    No obligations... But if you'd like to, I would appreciate it if you cited your claims about Sathya Sai Baba. Does he appear in more than one historical work? Who are the authors and what are their qualifications? Does the work or group of works written about him line up with other historical documents as to details about culture, geography, and politics? Are there any secular sources on him; As in: records of him that weren't written by the people who followed him? What kind of witnesses are there for Sathya's supernatural feats?

    Considering the last bit, what standards do you use to compare metaphysical claims? Do you consider them in anything other than an possible, ideological light?

    If you don't mind a short read, I'd recommend this little article by Gary Habermas: http://garyhabermas.com/articles/rel..._religions.htm

    And of course, I'd love to read an article on Sathya Sai Baba, if you would like me to.
    There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
    Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib

  6. #6
    Roderick Usher
    Guest

    Re: Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    Nice, I will get to this soon

  7. #7
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Venus
    Posts
    3,911
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    Good job guys! I think the debate is very interesting so far.
    >>]Aspoestertjie[<<

    ODN Rules

    Join our Facebook Page here!

  8. #8
    Roderick Usher
    Guest

    Re: Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    Sorry all for failing on this debate ... Time was something that I was not afforded in my personal life, and should have took this into account before agreeing to a debate. I did not have time to carefully articulate my position and dismantle his. Perhaps when I get some time, I will devote a thread in the philo section to the logical dissection and refutation of his position. And if I do so, I will also address his challenges. I invited him to a debate via microphone, which is certainly not as time consuming. ... Anyway, I thank you all for the opportunity. Sorry for the upset. ... P.S. Luke, if I had time, I would scour the internet for a sufficiently explanatory article on Sai Baba, and address your concerns, but at the moment, this is not a luxury I'm afforded. If I ever make the aforementioned post, I will make sure to include some relevant details there.

  9. #9
    Roderick Usher
    Guest

    Re: Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    Luke and Aspo ... check out my post in the Philo section: Is the Resurrection of Jesus Probable? Luke, check out the wiki article on Sai Baba. Since Norton Safe Web is down, I do not want to link any other articles. I am one of those paranoid people lol

  10. #10
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Asia
    Posts
    1,961
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    First of all, this was an absolutely wonderful debate! I mean that, too. My favorite debates are the ones which truly give me a new perspective on things, and this debate gave that in spades.

    Second, Bible Defender asked me who I would vote for in this debate. This was honestly a hard decision for me to make, because both of you had such strong, well presented arguments. My vote would have to go to Bible Defender, even though I tended to gravitate more towards Roderick Usher throughout the debate.

    For example, I felt Bible Defender's accusation that Roderick Usher did not follow the agreed upon standard of evidence was wrong. Argument to the Best Explanation simply requires that you give alternative explanations not accounts. However, Bible Defender continued to hammer Roderick Usher on the basis that he did not provide alternative accounts. “Account” and “explanation” are not synonymous. I felt Usher's argument satisfied this standard of evidence.

    I also felt Usher did an excellent job pointing about the absurdity of applying the standard evidence to other historical events. Even if the Salem witnesses weren’t proven unreliable, would that not be a reason to doubt the existence of witchcraft? Many people claim they were skeptics before being abducted by UFO’s. Should we consider alien abduction a probability?

    However, Bible Defender’s arguments seemed to have a much clearer focus. He used the quote feature far more often than Roderick Usher, and for that reason, I knew exactly which arguments he was addressing. This wasn’t always so clear with Roderick Usher.

    And naturally, because Roderick Usher didn’t finish the debate, my vote naturally has to default in favor of Bible Defender. Though I personally agreed more with Roderick Usher and found his arguments to be marginally stronger, I can’t justifiably give my vote to someone who did not follow through with the rules of the debate.

  11. #11
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Venus
    Posts
    3,911
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    I have also followed the debate and must admit that Bible Defender did better than Roderick. Bible Defefender made the more convincing arguments. The reason for that is maybe because he addressed the specific points made by Roderick. Like Czahar said, maybe if Roderick made use of the quote function his argument would have been easier to follow.
    >>]Aspoestertjie[<<

    ODN Rules

    Join our Facebook Page here!

  12. #12
    Donathan
    Guest

    Re: Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    Of course it's not probable. if I came to you and said I have been ressurected from death you would think I'm nuts. show me any real proof that it happened and I'll say it's probable

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    69
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is the Ressurection of Jesus Christ Probable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donathan View Post
    Of course it's not probable. if I came to you and said I have been ressurected from death you would think I'm nuts. show me any real proof that it happened and I'll say it's probable
    Perhaps you missed the part where this is a discussion about a debate that happened last year. In the formal debate forum. You know, where people use actual arguments to back up their statements.

 

 

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •