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  1. #1
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    Whites should pay more taxes

    Tutu's 'white tax is racist'
    2011-08-13 18:00

    Johannesburg - Calls made by Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu for white South African's to be taxed were racist and thoughtless, the Freedom Front Plus said on Saturday.

    "It borders on the emotional statements of [ANC Youth League president] Julius Malema and does not contribute to the debate on how to address the country’s economic problems properly," FF Plus spokesperson Anton Alberts said.

    Tutu, who spoke at a book launch at the University of Stellenbosch in Cape Town on Thursday evening, said the damage apartheid caused was impossible to escape.

    He said white citizens needed to accept the obvious: "You all benefited from apartheid."

    "Your children could go to good schools. You lived in smart neighbourhoods. Yet so many of my fellow white citizens become upset when you mention this. Why? Some are crippled by shame and guilt and respond with self-justification or indifference.

    "Both attitudes make that we are less than we can be."

    The Cape Argus spoke to Tutu after the speech, where he expanded on his wealth tax call.“There were many in the white community who were ready for this [at the time of the TRC process].

    “It could be quite piffling, maybe 1% of their stock exchange holdings. It’s nothing. But it could have helped... maybe building new homes, and that would have been an extraordinary symbol of their readiness.”

    Asked whether he was again calling for a “wealth tax”, Tutu said: “That’s what I’m saying.”

    He then laughed: “What were you doing in there [the conference centre]? Were you listening?”

    Tutu said he hoped whites themselves would “agitate” for it to be imposed upon them.

    However Alberts said in a statement it was improper to single out white people as they have contributed disproportionately more to the fiscus than any other group for the past 17 years.

    "The request for introspection and a greater moral contribution should instead be addressed to the ANC government itself."

    Tutu’s race argument was so much more immoral if taking into account the fact that there were already more than 600 000 poor whites, he said.

    "Taxes levied on white people will merely be damaging social cohesion and will not contribute anything toward a sustainable economy."
    - SAPA

    __________________________________________________ _________

    I find this pretty amusing. Wonder who are really the racists in my country.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    Tutu's 'white tax is racist'
    2011-08-13 18:00

    Johannesburg - Calls made by Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu for white South African's to be taxed were racist and thoughtless, the Freedom Front Plus said on Saturday.

    "It borders on the emotional statements of [ANC Youth League president] Julius Malema and does not contribute to the debate on how to address the country’s economic problems properly," FF Plus spokesperson Anton Alberts said.

    Tutu, who spoke at a book launch at the University of Stellenbosch in Cape Town on Thursday evening, said the damage apartheid caused was impossible to escape.

    He said white citizens needed to accept the obvious: "You all benefited from apartheid."

    "Your children could go to good schools. You lived in smart neighbourhoods. Yet so many of my fellow white citizens become upset when you mention this. Why? Some are crippled by shame and guilt and respond with self-justification or indifference.

    "Both attitudes make that we are less than we can be."

    The Cape Argus spoke to Tutu after the speech, where he expanded on his wealth tax call.“There were many in the white community who were ready for this [at the time of the TRC process].

    “It could be quite piffling, maybe 1% of their stock exchange holdings. It’s nothing. But it could have helped... maybe building new homes, and that would have been an extraordinary symbol of their readiness.”

    Asked whether he was again calling for a “wealth tax”, Tutu said: “That’s what I’m saying.”

    He then laughed: “What were you doing in there [the conference centre]? Were you listening?”

    Tutu said he hoped whites themselves would “agitate” for it to be imposed upon them.

    However Alberts said in a statement it was improper to single out white people as they have contributed disproportionately more to the fiscus than any other group for the past 17 years.

    "The request for introspection and a greater moral contribution should instead be addressed to the ANC government itself."

    Tutu’s race argument was so much more immoral if taking into account the fact that there were already more than 600 000 poor whites, he said.

    "Taxes levied on white people will merely be damaging social cohesion and will not contribute anything toward a sustainable economy."
    - SAPA

    __________________________________________________ _________

    I find this pretty amusing. Wonder who are really the racists in my country.
    So who do think should shoulder the tax burden in South Africa? I dont live there and have never been there, so I dont think that I am qualified to respond to this properly, but as far a taxes go (regardless of geography or political system), I think that the rich should pay more regardless what color their skin is.

    It seems to me that South Africans (Black and White) have a hard time letting go of the Apartheid. Reperations solve nothing, people everywhere (not just in SA) need to get over it and finally understand that "race" is made up and of human construct. We are all human no matter what.

  3. #3
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAdams View Post
    So who do think should shoulder the tax burden in South Africa? I dont live there and have never been there, so I dont think that I am qualified to respond to this properly, but as far a taxes go (regardless of geography or political system), I think that the rich should pay more regardless what color their skin is.

    It seems to me that South Africans (Black and White) have a hard time letting go of the Apartheid. Reperations solve nothing, people everywhere (not just in SA) need to get over it and finally understand that "race" is made up and of human construct. We are all human no matter what.
    Why should the rich pay more? There are some economic reasons for designing a progressive tax, but we shouldn't let our pet philosophical inclinations have absolute control over our economic policies.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    One of the greatest injustices imaginable is to punish an entire population (who are comprised of a specific race, ethnicity, or religious affiliation) based on the crimes of their ancestors.

    Marginalizing a single group by imposing higher tax burdens on said group based on their race is unacceptable. Such actions regress the society back to racial warfare and only further the tensions among the racial groups of the country. Instead of working towards greater unity and setting aside racial antagonisms, this act of vengeance will only reintroduce racial classification among the whites and blacks of South Africa. It's an absurd proposition.
    "Those who would give up ESSENTIAL LIBERTY to purchase a little TEMPORARY SAFETY deserve neither LIBERTY nor SAFETY."--Pennsylvania Assembly

  5. #5
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    It surprises me sometimes to read how strong "official" racism still is in South Africa. There are many with racist attitudes in the U.S., but this sort of rhetoric about a "white tax" or a "black tax" would be a bit shocking to most people. Of course, South Africa does have a very different history.

  6. #6
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAdams View Post
    So who do think should shoulder the tax burden in South Africa? I dont live there and have never been there, so I dont think that I am qualified to respond to this properly, but as far a taxes go (regardless of geography or political system), I think that the rich should pay more regardless what color their skin is.
    Obviously the tax burden should have no colour to it. Taxes are paid by everybody according to their income at this moment. The problem is, the government makes themselves guilty of fruitless expenditures, now they want to put an extra burden on white people alone while the fat cats riding the gravy train should have no obligation to do the same (and most of them are black). I think it is only fair if everybody pays taxes according to their income and I don't think it is necessary to say rich people should pay more, because they already are paying more proportionally.

    It seems to me that South Africans (Black and White) have a hard time letting go of the Apartheid. Reperations solve nothing, people everywhere (not just in SA) need to get over it and finally understand that "race" is made up and of human construct. We are all human no matter what.
    Yeah, but it is easier said than done though. Obviously the wrongs in the past can't be rectified in only 16 years, but there comes a time when the atrocities of past should stay in the past and EVERYBODY (black and white) should co-operate to make a country a better place to live in. Unfortunately not everybody see it that way.

    ---------- Post added at 02:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    It surprises me sometimes to read how strong "official" racism still is in South Africa. There are many with racist attitudes in the U.S., but this sort of rhetoric about a "white tax" or a "black tax" would be a bit shocking to most people. Of course, South Africa does have a very different history.
    Do you believe because of our different history it is okay to make whites pay more taxes?
    >>]Aspoestertjie[<<

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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    Generations of social injustices have made most white South Africans rich and most black South Africans poor.

    An average white SA will have a better life than black SA today because their white ancestors did something we would not condone today. Receiving benefit for something we think was wrong, is itself wrong.

    Equally taxing (punishing) all whites would not make sense because many whites are not equally receiving the same rich benefits and because a few blacks did end up receiving those typically white ancestor benifits. Therefor a more fair way to solve the problem is to heavily tax the wealthy regardless of color and provide social programs to help the poor pull themselves up and eliminate segregation.

    Thereby allowing everyone to be born with more equal opportunities, instead of determining birth opportunities based on how much your ancestors were oppressed or oppressing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    Do you believe because of our different history it is okay to make whites pay more taxes?
    I think the rich (which are predominantly white) should pay more. Do you think future generations should receive reward or punishment based on what color their ancestors were during the apartheid?

  8. #8
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kong View Post
    Generations of social injustices have made most white South Africans rich and most black South Africans poor.

    An average white SA will have a better life than black SA today because their white ancestors did something we would not condone today. Receiving benefit for something we think was wrong, is itself wrong.

    Equally taxing (punishing) all whites would not make sense because many whites are not equally receiving the same rich benefits and because a few blacks did end up receiving those typically white ancestor benifits. Therefor a more fair way to solve the problem is to heavily tax the wealthy regardless of color and provide social programs to help the poor pull themselves up and eliminate segregation.

    Thereby allowing everyone to be born with more equal opportunities, instead of determining birth opportunities based on how much your ancestors were oppressed or oppressing.


    I think the rich (which are predominantly white) should pay more. Do you think future generations should receive reward or punishment based on what color their ancestors were during the apartheid?
    I think that if you have a claim that someone has damaged you, you should be able to sue to recompense those damages. I don't think taxes should be designed to right civil wrongs; they should be designed either as pigouvian taxes or, if they are needed to generate funds for courts/police/fire department/etc., should be designed to have as little deadweight loss as possible.

    The courts should be where wrongs are righted. If I work my butt off for 20 years, and I decide to pass my money on to my children, how is that "unfair" to someone whose parents were less successful? I haven't done anything wrong to them. It's my money, and I should be able to direct it as I see fit (modulo criminal activity; I'm not entitled to put hits out on people).
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  9. #9
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post

    Do you believe because of our different history it is okay to make whites pay more taxes?
    No I don't. I think it's highly unjust and irrational to tax based on race. I merely understand why it is possible for this to happen in South Africa, because of its history.

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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    I think that if you have a claim that someone has damaged you, you should be able to sue to recompense those damages.
    Who do you sue if you were damaged by the apartheid and how do you prove you were damaged? Most rich white SA benefited from it and most poor black SA suffered from it. And the important thing to note is they will continue to greatly benefit or greatly suffer from it for many generations to come.

  11. #11
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    It would be a step backwards in many respects.
    It's absurd to expect white peoples guilt to prompt them to volunteer for more taxes.
    He is correct than some of the wealth of whites is likely the result of exploration of blacks, but you can never even the score of the past, only the present.

    Taxing the rich... that actually makes some sense. You tax where the money is and by definition the rich have the most money.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  12. #12
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kong View Post
    Receiving benefit for something we think was wrong, is itself wrong.
    Do you believe it's wrong for people to benefit from living in a nation on the basis that most nations were built on violence? Are African Americans living in the United States taking part in a moral wrong by accepting the benefits of a society partially built on the oppression of Native Americans?

  13. #13
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kong View Post
    Who do you sue if you were damaged by the apartheid and how do you prove you were damaged? Most rich white SA benefited from it and most poor black SA suffered from it. And the important thing to note is they will continue to greatly benefit or greatly suffer from it for many generations to come.
    If you can't prove you were damaged, then why should I believe that you were damaged?
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  14. #14
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kong View Post
    Generations of social injustices have made most white South Africans rich and most black South Africans poor.
    How exactly do you get to this conclusion? How exactly in your opinion have the 'social injustices' made white South Africans richer?

    An average white SA will have a better life than black SA today because their white ancestors did something we would not condone today. Receiving benefit for something we think was wrong, is itself wrong.
    Many of them will agree today that they had a better life during apartheid as now. While I don't agree with apartheid, I can't accept resonsibility for something my ancestors did wrong. The English have killed many of my ancestors. They locked the women and children away in concentration camps to die and many died. Do I still have to hold a grutch against the English today? Do I still need to punish them and hate them because of what their ancestors did to my ancestors? Where do you actually draw the line? How do you expect people to move forward in life if you keep on digging up the past and try to find lame excuses for your own situation today? There is nothing that stops them today from going forward in life. They have equal, in fact, MORE opportunities that white children today. Many white people are rich or at least live comfortably because they work very hard. I have worked very hard for what I have today and I do it for my children. Why should I pay for something my ancestors did and in the process let my children suffer? How is that fair?

    Equally taxing (punishing) all whites would not make sense because many whites are not equally receiving the same rich benefits and because a few blacks did end up receiving those typically white ancestor benifits. Therefor a more fair way to solve the problem is to heavily tax the wealthy regardless of color and provide social programs to help the poor pull themselves up and eliminate segregation.
    Here I will agree with you. Proportionally rich people do actually pay more taxes. If you have a very low income, you either pay no taxes or very little taxes. I pay super tax at the moment. Why is paying super tax not enough?

    Thereby allowing everyone to be born with more equal opportunities, instead of determining birth opportunities based on how much your ancestors were oppressed or oppressing.
    Absolutely nothing prevents these children and their parents to make something of their lives today. Everybody is born with equal opportunities, if you are not grabbing those opportunities it is because you either don't want to, or you lack the motivation. Many black people today live in the top income bracket. Their children go to good schools and they can afford to live in better homes. They have access to the same facilities whites have and there is no discrimination against them. So taxing whites alone will be discrimination IMHO.


    I think the rich (which are predominantly white) should pay more. Do you think future generations should receive reward or punishment based on what color their ancestors were during the apartheid?
    Many people think the whites are the rich, but like I explained above, that is something of the past. There are many whites suffering, whith no homes to live in and no food to eat today.
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kong View Post
    Who do you sue if you were damaged by the apartheid and how do you prove you were damaged? Most rich white SA benefited from it and most poor black SA suffered from it. And the important thing to note is they will continue to greatly benefit or greatly suffer from it for many generations to come.
    Disproportionate, racially-motivated fiscal policy should not be a pretext by which black South Africans can take vengeance upon their white fellow South Africans for past atrocities committed by white opportunists. Apartheid was a despicable system fostered by a despicable group of men but the current social conditions are by no means the fault of the current generation of white South Africans (you'll even find many white South Africans living under poverty). Point being: you cannot undo injustice by exalting injustice. You cannot undo discrimination by reversing who's being discriminated against.
    "Those who would give up ESSENTIAL LIBERTY to purchase a little TEMPORARY SAFETY deserve neither LIBERTY nor SAFETY."--Pennsylvania Assembly

  16. #16
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    Re: Whites should pay more taxes

    Why is there a need to change the tax code at all? (in SA) if the rich already pay more in taxes. It is not and should not be the responsibility of the government to provide economic equality, it is only the government's responsibility to provide equal freedom for all humans.

    Why the need to seperate based on skin pigment? The solution to the problem is to stop classifing people based on skin color and to actually to address the actual problems that cause widespread poverty and not focus on the frivolous aspects the issue; in other words, stop complaining about people complaining and actually work to fix the actual problem.

 

 

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