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  1. #1
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    Angry Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    i think gay marriage should not be allowed. because it specificity says in the bible that gay marriage is a discrimination/abomination. so i think it is shouldn't be allowed in our country or anywhere. if i see a gay couple at my school i am fine with it. i think it is ok to love someone with your own sex. but at the same time i think it is gross and nasty. but back to the story when i see them holding hands i am fine with it but i don't want them walking around being gay. by that i mean they shouldn't be hitting on guys. so comment back about this post if you have anything to say.

  2. #2
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Moved to the Social Issues forum. Please read our rules concerning posting in the Formal Debate forum.

  3. #3
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Skipper View Post
    i think gay marriage should not be allowed. because it specificity says in the bible that gay marriage is a discrimination/abomination.
    It also says in the Bible that woman shouldn't talk in Church. Do you agree with that?
    so i think it is shouldn't be allowed in our country or anywhere. if i see a gay couple at my school i am fine with it. i think it is ok to love someone with your own sex. but at the same time i think it is gross and nasty.
    What does you thinking something is gross or nasty have to do with whether or not something is immoral? I think people who eat beats are nasty, but I don't consider them immoral.
    but back to the story when i see them holding hands i am fine with it but i don't want them walking around being gay.
    Replace "them" with "a black and a white person" and the word word "gay" with "a nigger lover."
    Udabindu yathāpi pokkhare
    Padume vāri yathā na lippati,
    Evaṃ muni no palippati
    Yadidaṃ diṭṭhasutaṃ mutesu vā.

  4. #4
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Skipper View Post
    i think gay marriage should not be allowed. because it specificity says in the bible that gay marriage is a discrimination/abomination.
    But we don't base our laws on what the bible says. We are a constitutional republic, not a theocracy.

    And btw, where exactly does the bible say that gay marriage is an abomination?

  5. #5
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And btw, where exactly does the bible say that gay marriage is an abomination?
    The Bible says homosexuality is detestable, so it can be implied that centering such a holy ceremony around such a detestable act would be equally detestable.

    By the way, I am a strong supporter of homosexual marriage, so please do not take this post as opposition to it.

  6. #6
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    The Bible says homosexuality is detestable, so it can be implied that centering such a holy ceremony around such a detestable act would be equally detestable.
    Right, implied. Not actually stated by the bible.

  7. #7
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Right, implied. Not actually stated by the bible.
    Are you actually suggesting that because the Bible doesn't plainly state that gay marriage is forbidden, that gay marriage might be Biblical? That in spite of the fact that the Bible says...
    • Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
    • Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltness is upon them"
    • 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
    • Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
    ...that somehow gay marriage is permissible according to the Bible? If not, then is your point to point out a superficial technicality that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not gay marriage actually is forbidden according to the Bible?

  8. #8
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    that somehow gay marriage is permissible according to the Bible? If not, then is your point to point out a superficial technicality that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not gay marriage actually is forbidden according to the Bible?
    Actually whether the bible says gay marriage is an "abomination", as he said, or one can transfer the anti-gay sentiments to assume that the bible isn't fine with gay marriage, as you say, are different. One is clearly a stronger anti-gay marriage statement and if I could be swayed on the gay marriage issue, his argument, if correct would be more persuasive than yours since it makes a stronger case that the bible forbids gay marriage (if it were accurate, that is).

    So I disagree that it's a superficial difference.

  9. #9
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Actually whether the bible says gay marriage is an "abomination", as he said, or one can transfer the anti-gay sentiments to assume that the bible isn't fine with gay marriage, as you say, are different. One is clearly a stronger anti-gay marriage statement and if I could be swayed on the gay marriage issue, his argument, if correct would be more persuasive than yours since it makes a stronger case that the bible forbids gay marriage (if it were accurate, that is).

    So I disagree that it's a superficial difference.
    I'd have to disagree with you here. Being explicit doesn't make something more persuasive. The constitutional right to bear arms is more explicitly stated than the right to have an abortion. Are you going to argue there is a stronger argument in favor of bearing arms in the United States than there is in having an abortion?

  10. #10
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Actually whether the bible says gay marriage is an "abomination", as he said, or one can transfer the anti-gay sentiments to assume that the bible isn't fine with gay marriage, as you say, are different. One is clearly a stronger anti-gay marriage statement and if I could be swayed on the gay marriage issue, his argument, if correct would be more persuasive than yours since it makes a stronger case that the bible forbids gay marriage (if it were accurate, that is).

    So I disagree that it's a superficial difference.
    Ok, so you're the guy that hopefully asks "So I guess a night in the sack out of the question?" if a girl tells you that she doesn't want to dance, huh?

    I really can't see a rational person denying that the authors of the Bible would regard gay marriage as an abomination when they already said being a homosexual is itself an offense to nature worth being killed over.

  11. #11
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    I'd have to disagree with you here. Being explicit doesn't make something more persuasive. The constitutional right to bear arms is more explicitly stated than the right to have an abortion. Are you going to argue there is a stronger argument in favor of bearing arms in the United States than there is in having an abortion?
    Yes I would, actually.

    Saying "X is a right" is a stronger argument for X being a right than "Y is a right and we can link X to Y and come to the conclusion that X is a right as well" for the second argument gives one the opportunity to argue against the link and argue that X is not a right". And some pro-lifers do argue against the constitution providing the right to abortion but no one argues that the constitution does not give us the right to free speech.
    Last edited by mican333; September 4th, 2011 at 07:11 AM.

  12. #12
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Yes I would, actually.

    Saying "X is a right" is a stronger argument for X being a right than "Y is a right and we can link X to Y and come to the conclusion that X is a right as well".
    Whether or not something is implied is irrelevant to its persuasiveness. If I argued that you lived in USA based on the fact that your avatar says you live in Michigan would my argument be any weaker than if I had said Mican lives in the USA because Mican's avatar says Mican lives in Michigan?

    Besides, by admitting that the Bible does imply a prohibition on gay marriage (as you seem to say in post #6) aren't you admitting that there is, in fact, a prohibition against gay marriage in the Bible? If so, aren't you answering the very challenge you posed to Sean Skipper?

  13. #13
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    If I argued that you lived in USA based on the fact that your avatar says you live in Michigan would my argument be any weaker than if I had said Mican lives in the USA because Mican's avatar says Mican lives in Michigan?
    Since it is established that I am Mican, you are saying the same thing with either argument so they are effectively the same, which is not the case in the two arguments I am comparing. Saying "gays are an abomination" and "gay marriage is an abomination" are not saying the same thing.

    Mican = me
    Gays =/= gay marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    Besides, by admitting that the Bible does imply a prohibition on gay marriage (as you seem to say in post #6) aren't you admitting that there is, in fact, a prohibition against gay marriage in the Bible? If so, aren't you answering the very challenge you posed to Sean Skipper?
    No, he is arguing for a change in our laws based on what the bible says so assuming that one lends credence to the notion that if the bible is against it, we should consider banning it, then the stronger the bible comes out against it the stronger we should consider banning it. And since "gay marriage is an abomination" is a stronger argument against gay marriage than "gays are an abomination" it makes a stronger case against gay marriage (assuming one lends credence to that kind of argument).

  14. #14
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, he is arguing for a change in our laws based on what the bible says so assuming that one lends credence to the notion that if the bible is against it, we should consider banning it, then the stronger the bible comes out against it the stronger we should consider banning it. And since "gay marriage is an abomination" is a stronger argument against gay marriage than "gays are an abomination" it makes a stronger case against gay marriage (assuming one lends credence to that kind of argument).
    Let's take this one step at a time. I said there was an implied statement against gay marriage in the Bible and you agreed with me, correct?

  15. #15
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    Let's take this one step at a time. I said there was an implied statement against gay marriage in the Bible and you agreed with me, correct?
    Yes.

  16. #16
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Yes.
    Well, if the Bible says there's a prohibition against it, why shouldn't Christians oppose it (that is, if they're going to stay true to their own philosophy)? A weak prohibition (if God can be said to prohibit some things with less vigor than others - and I don't think he does) is still a prohibition. Even if your logic were accepted concerning the implied status of abortion, that wouldn't mean courts wouldn't enforce prohibitions against unconstitutional anti-abortion laws.
    Last edited by czahar; September 4th, 2011 at 06:41 PM.

  17. #17
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    Well, if the Bible says there's a prohibition against it, why shouldn't Christians oppose it (that is, if they're going to stay true to their own philosophy)? A weak prohibition (if God can be said to prohibit some things with less vigor than others - and I don't think he does) is still a prohibition.
    But in a debate a stronger argument is more effective than a weak one. The point is your argument and his argument are different.

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    Even if your logic were accepted concerning the implied status of abortion, that wouldn't mean courts wouldn't enforce prohibitions against unconstitutional anti-abortion laws.
    I didn't say otherwise. But again, an argument that is directly from the constitution is stronger than one that gets there in multiple steps.

  18. #18
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But in a debate a stronger argument is more effective than a weak one. The point is your argument and his argument are different.
    A stronger argument for what, though? You've already admitted that there is a prohibition against gay marriage in the Bible. What exactly do you need proof of?

  19. #19
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    A stronger argument for what, though?
    A stronger argument against gay marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    You've already admitted that there is a prohibition against gay marriage in the Bible. What exactly do you need proof of?
    I admitted that there was an implied statement against gay marriage in the bible and now I think I have to retract that. I would instead say that because the bible says things against gays it is reasonable to assume that the bible is anti-gay marriage as well (maybe that's saying the same as before but whatever).

    And if someone were to mount an argument that the bible does not prohibit gay marriage, that position would be much easier to challenge than the position that the bible explicitly bans gay marriage.

    Again, those two arguments are different and by knocking out the stronger of the two arguments I have weakened the anti-gay marriage position by making it fall back to a weaker argument that can be more easily challenged.

    Even though I agree that the implied position implies what it implies, I could mount an argument against it, such as perhaps that even though God doesn't like two men having sex, if they are going to do it he'd rather they be married so at least they aren't fornicating (having sex outside of marriage). But that kind of argument cannot be mounted against the stronger position that God says that gay marriage is an abomination.

  20. #20
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    Re: Is gay/Bi marriage a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Skipper View Post
    i think gay marriage should not be allowed. because it specificity says in the bible that gay marriage is a discrimination/abomination. so i think it is shouldn't be allowed in our country or anywhere.
    The bible also says you shouldn't cut you hair or beard and you should stone to death disobedient children and lots of other fun stuff. Many people also think the bible is a work of fable and fiction and not a very good source of governance.

    You can think what you like but America made a pretty wise decision in creating a government that makes laws based on ideals such as liberty and justice rather than the commandments of unseen entities which folks claim to divine from ancient writings. Gay people pose no threat to you or anyone else so you should really just mind your own business. Making laws because you find something icky is the sort of thing that could well lead to someone deciding you are icky and making an arbitrary rule about how you can live your life.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

 

 
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