Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Results 1 to 11 of 11
  1. #1
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    614
    Post Thanks / Like

    Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?

    Apparently a Canadian judge has decided that infanticide is just a very late term abortion rather than being homicide.
    On April 13, 2005, 19 year old Katrina Effert secretly gave birth to a baby boy in her parent’s home. She then strangled the child with her underwear, and tossed the corpse over the fence into the yard of one of the neighbours.

    On September 9, 2011, CBC reported that Ms. Effert’s conviction for this murder had been ‘downgraded’ by an Edmonton Court of Queen’s Bench judge to infanticide, and in lieu of jail time she will merely serve a suspended sentence.

    In her argument, the judge stated that “while many Canadians undoubtedly view abortion as a less than ideal solution to unprotected sex and unwanted pregnancy, they generally understand, accept, and sympathize with the onerous demands pregnancy and childbirth exact from mothers, especially mothers without support.”

    Translation? Katrina Effert simply engaged in a really, really late-term abortion. Given that we don’t, under Canadian law, value human life a few minutes before birth, why a few minutes after?

    Indeed, the Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada, run by the virulently pro-abortion Joyce Arthur, posted the CBC article on their Facebook page with the heading: “A tragic situation, but yes, there are compelling reasons for infanticide being a lesser crime than murder.” In response to my query simply stating “Such as?” ARCC removed the comment and blocked my asking further questions underneath the article.

    The abortion movement, apparently, is not even bothering to protest the stipulation of the pro-life movement that if we value human life based on age or any other arbitrary criteria, it is intellectually consistent to point out that the value of any human life (such as Katrina Effert’s baby boy)is, shall we say, ‘downgraded’. In fact, while Ms. Effert will not spend any time in jail for strangling her son, she may have to spend sixteen days behind bars for disposing of his corpse by tossing it over a fence.

    Killing a child? Meh. Improper disposal of the victim’s body? Outrageous!

    While this “sentence” is an outrageous miscarriage of justice, it should not be surprising. In a country where the age of a human being is directly correlated to their value, this decision is consistent with the belief that younger equals less valuable. What is rather surprising, however, is that this judge (and many commenting on the CBC article) apparently seem to believe that women are far too mentally weak after childbirth to make any rational decisions.

    Post-partum depression, this decision would seem to indicate, serves as an excuse to strangling your newborn. If you can prove you were depressed, killing your child is something that is understandable and if you listen to this judge, acceptable. If abortion advocates actually believe that women are so fragile after childbirth that strangling their child is understandable, I wonder what they would say if the same judge proposed that new mothers have to prove their sanity before taking custody of their newborn children? It is absurd to simultaneously claim that women are strong enough to do anything they choose in the world, but that childbirth, something they are biologically designed to do, will result in a spasm of murder. The only natural instinct abortion advocates believe women lack is the maternal instinct.

    This tragic event should be seen as a warning to Canadians. When a judge literally uses abortion as an excuse for infanticide in a court statement, and compares the two as pretty much the same thing, we should recognize that this worldview is not inconsistent with the one of “choice”. This is not even the first time infanticide has been excused--Harvard 'ethicist' Peter Singer even endorses it. However, if children are not valuable simply because they are children, their value will be based on other criteria. When the value of one class of human beings is downgraded, we should all take note. It is up to each of us to decide. Should humans have the “choice” to kill others?

    http://www.unmaskingchoice.ca/blog/2...-term-abortion

  2. #2
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,472
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?

    A couple notes and my opinion....

    Note: The judge is commanded to follow the law, and the laws in Canada have provisions for leniency in cases of infanticide recognizing a kind of mental illness of the mother. This of course stems from the notion that justice is partly about intent and that states of mental incapacity don't represent the true will of the perpetrator. So rather than this being a story of a Judge wit an agenda, its a story about the laws of Canada.

    Also note: This has little or nothing to do directly with abortion law. The evaluation of her sentence was not based on whether the life of the child was valuable, but on whether her act is one of criminal intent and purpose.

    Opinion: I don't think that having post partum depression is a valid excuse for murdering your child. Plenty of folks manage not to kill their children under stressful circumstances and its reasonable to expect if she did it once, she might do it again. I think real justice was not served in this case.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  3. #3
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,220
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?

    She didn't walk away without serving any time in jail. I believe she was already in prison until her sentence. She was freed because she had served enough time as it was.

    Second, she was mentally ill at the time. I don't condone what she did, but as I wasn't there, and I wasn't thinking and feeling what she was, I do not feel I have any right to judge.
    Frozen In Time Yearning Forbidden Wishes Damned And Divine
    Scars Of My Broken Kisses What Will Follow If Tomorrow's Blind? My Eternal Night.

  4. #4
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Where ever you tell me, Drill Sergeant!
    Posts
    2,201
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    She didn't walk away without serving any time in jail. I believe she was already in prison until her sentence. She was freed because she had served enough time as it was.

    Second, she was mentally ill at the time. I don't condone what she did, but as I wasn't there, and I wasn't thinking and feeling what she was, I do not feel I have any right to judge.
    Well, if that's the case, no one can ever judge anyone for anything. Ever.

    Right?
    The Signature Religion is the one true religion. I know this is true, because it says so right here in this signature.

  5. #5
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    13,847
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    A couple notes and my opinion....

    Note: The judge is commanded to follow the law, and the laws in Canada have provisions for leniency in cases of infanticide recognizing a kind of mental illness of the mother. This of course stems from the notion that justice is partly about intent and that states of mental incapacity don't represent the true will of the perpetrator. So rather than this being a story of a Judge wit an agenda, its a story about the laws of Canada.

    Also note: This has little or nothing to do directly with abortion law. The evaluation of her sentence was not based on whether the life of the child was valuable, but on whether her act is one of criminal intent and purpose.

    Opinion: I don't think that having post partum depression is a valid excuse for murdering your child. Plenty of folks manage not to kill their children under stressful circumstances and its reasonable to expect if she did it once, she might do it again. I think real justice was not served in this case.
    Why did the judge bring up abortion, then? Just random happenstance?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  6. #6
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,472
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Why did the judge bring up abortion, then? Just random happenstance?
    He is saying that the stress of new parenthood mitigates the act due to psychological stress. AKA he's justifying the murder by saying parenthood is tough. I certainly don't find it a compelling argument.

    Like the article notes, its not that she didn't kill the child, or that killing a child is legal, its that they decided she is not fully responsible due to her mental condition which stems from the act of childbirth and the law in Canada has special provisions for it.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  7. #7
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?

    "Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?"

    No. Abortion is early infanticide.

    I know that I am stating the obvious. Some truths should be repeated often.
    Last edited by evensaul; September 19th, 2011 at 07:55 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #8
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    13,847
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    "Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?"

    No. Abortion is early infanticide.

    I know that I am stating the obvious. Some truths should be repeated often.
    Interestingly, I think this means that you agree that "infanticide is very late-term abortion"--since abortion is infanticide, this means "infanticide is very late-term infanticide". What's funny is that the statement originally may have been intended to mean something like "Infanticide is actually similar to abortion, and abortion is acceptable, so infanticide is similar to something acceptable." Instead, you're saying "Infanticide is actually similar to abortion, and infanticide is unacceptable, so abortion is similar to something unacceptable."

    This is in accordance with the aphorism "A quart of ice cream mixed with a quart of dog feces will taste more like the latter than the former."
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  9. #9
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,220
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    "Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?"

    No. Abortion is early infanticide.

    I know that I am stating the obvious. Some truths should be repeated often.
    You are factually and legally wrong. If it is so obvious, do prove it.
    Frozen In Time Yearning Forbidden Wishes Damned And Divine
    Scars Of My Broken Kisses What Will Follow If Tomorrow's Blind? My Eternal Night.

  10. #10
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    You are factually and legally wrong. If it is so obvious, do prove it.
    An infant is a developing child. The suffix "cide" means "to kill". Putting them together provides "infanticide".


    infant[in-fuhnt]  Dictionary.com

    Adsin·fant   /ˈɪnfənt/ Show Spelled[in-fuhnt] Show IPA
    noun
    1. a child during the earliest period of its life, especially before he or she can walk; baby.
    2. Law . a person who is not of full age, especially one who has not reached the age of 18 years; a minor.
    3. a beginner, as in experience or learning; novice: The new candidate is a political infant.
    4. anything in the first stage of existence or progress.
    adjective
    5. of or pertaining to infants or infancy: infant years.
    6. being in infancy: an infant king.
    7. being in the earliest stage: an infant industry.
    8. of or pertaining to the legal state of infancy; minor.

    An unborn baby can be correctly classified as an infant child. So abortion is an early stage infanticide.

    ---------- Post added at 04:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    This is in accordance with the aphorism "A quart of ice cream mixed with a quart of dog feces will taste more like the latter than the former."
    I like this. Never heard it before. But I'll certainly remember it, and will have to use it some time.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  11. #11
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,483
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    "Is infanticide just a very late term abortion?"

    No. Abortion is early infanticide.

    I know that I am stating the obvious. Some truths should be repeated often.
    ^ This.

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. 1v1 Abortion, I am anti-abortion
    By Twitchard in forum General Debate
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: July 14th, 2008, 07:22 PM
  2. infanticide and morality
    By tARoPINOS in forum Philosophical Debates
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: October 10th, 2007, 11:27 AM
  3. Hello.... a little late
    By Pasipo in forum Member Introductions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: October 12th, 2006, 02:27 PM
  4. Too Little, Too Late
    By manise in forum Politics
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: April 2nd, 2006, 01:02 PM
  5. Infanticide
    By AntiMaterialist in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: April 19th, 2005, 03:46 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •