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Poll: Evolution is

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  1. #21
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    Not true. Current, consensus scientific opinion does equal fact. A fact is not an infallible description of some state of affairs in the world. A fact is simply a description of a state of affairs that is supported by all (or virtually all) the available evidence and that isn't false as far as is known.
    I have seen some incredibly ignorant statements before...but this one...wow. Im assuming that you are joking here, because this is overboard...even for a Liberal. Facts are facts. There is nothing else that need be said there. You even contradict yourself within the first 9 words you say :

    "Not true. Current, consensus scientific opinion does equal fact."

    Did you even proof-read what you wrote ? Or are you just joking ? Current opinion equals fact? There is simply no way you really mean that. I give you more credit than that.

    A fact is a fact regardless of current scientific consensus.

    If every single scientist in the world today said that Earth was 9.2 billion years old...lets say....according to your....definition of fact......then that would be the fact of the Earth, right? What if the next day a new discovery shows, " without doubt" that the Earth is actually only 3 billion years old and then all of the sudden every scientist in the world believes that. Which would be the fact of the age of the Earth? You mean to tell me that yesterday the Earth was 9 billion years old, but today it is 3 billion years old all because some scientist say so? There is no way you REALLY believe that...common....stop trying to make me laugh =]


    My 3rd grader and I actually had a discussion about facts and opinions the other week...he seemed to get the concept of the difference pretty easily. I dont know...maybe he is more advanced than I thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    That's not even close to being accurate. The plain fact of the matter is, is that virtually all the educated 500 years ago firmly believed the earth was spherical and had done so for some time.
    To think there wasnt a time that the human race believed the world was flat suggests a severe lack in historical knowledge. But lets say that history magically changed to meet your severely distorted view of it, say it was 1,000 years ago...1,500 years ago...that the scientific community declared it a "fact" that the world was flat. According to your definition of fact, that would mean that it was indeed a fact 1,500 years ago? Just because some people thought it was? Man, I heard of the power of thought before, but that is just plain silly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    That's a strawman. No one says that consensus scientific answers are infallible.
    No, but I will say that FACTS are infallible.

    - Facts are infallible
    - consensus scientific opinions are not necessarily infallible (by your own admission)
    - Therefore, consensus scientific opinions are not necessarily facts

    I mean, I dont even know how an educated person argues that with a straight face.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    What is said is that, today, these answers are the best answers we have available to us.
    That doesnt make them right now does it? The world being flat was the best available answer to people so many years ago. Where they right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    No, what is incredibly ignorant and foolish is to believe that anyone claims that science professes infallible knowledge.
    Which, ironically, is what you seem to be trying to do by saying that consensus scientific opinion is fact. As ignorant and foolish as it is to say, " consensus scientific opinion is fact " remember, those are your words, not mine.

    ----------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    This is all we have and perhaps our senses are flawed. But you know what? That is all we have. What our senses tell us is reality, is reality. At least for us. If my senses tell me that cutting my hand off hurts then that is a cold hard fact. My senses maybe wrong, but to me they are not. They provide me with my reality. If that reality is reflective of the real reality is irrelevant. It is real to me. So, we see evolution in action. Therefore, it is a fact. For example, we see language evolving right before our eyes... or ears in this case. I am talking about evolution as a framework. How humans became what we are today is only one of the many things that this framework can explain.
    You are correct in saying that they are all we have and to us, they form the framework of what we would call reality. However, that does not mean that what we observe and how we interpret it is accurate and therefore a fact.

    I know I keep going back to this example, but it really is a good one for the debate at hand.

    Many years ago all of our observations and the way we interpreted those observations showed us that the world was flat. For thousands of years people were absolutely terrified of sailing too far out towards the horizon in fear of falling off the world.

    I give you the point that our observations and the interpretations of those observations creates our explanation of nature and generates what we see as reality. That is not the same as making something a fact.

    As said before, facts are facts regardless of schooling degrees, best possible explanations, or scientific consensus.
    Last edited by Someguy; October 3rd, 2011 at 07:24 PM. Reason: added in a reply to my OP that was actually worth a response.

  2. #22
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    1) A fact is a fact whether you have a PhD or not.
    I'm not sure what your point is. Facts are events that can be observed by anyone, no matter his level of education. The problem is that educated persons are more likely to be able to explain the facts, while religious persons are more likely to attribute them to mythology.
    2) Non-facts are not facts whether you have a PhD or not.
    True. But an educated person recognizes a non-fact, while a religious person tends to attribute it to a miracle.
    3) There is a certain irony for you to argue that laymen must/should accept without question everything that a select class tells them. How is that any different than blindly following what some priest tells you?
    What select class are you talking about? Certainly not scientists. Scientists publish their findings so that they may be challenged. The point of science is that everything is open to question and should not be accepted without question. Just because you can read about tested scientific investigations does not mean that it is presented as dogma. If you offer educated opposition, then you will be heard.

    It's different because the declarations of priests are followed without question. If you do disagree, then you become a heretic and end up forming yet another christian cult. None of it is based on any sort of real evidence. Just how you understand the mythology of bronze age, nomadic herdsmen.
    4) You are equivocating the general (non-scientific) usage of "theory" which is essentially the equivalent of a hypothesis with the way it is meant in the scientific sense, where it is a generalized principle that explains a set of phenomena. So when a scientist says "theory of evolution" they are not saying that it is hypothetical in some sense, but rather that it is an overarching concept that encompasses and explains a set of observations. So it is no less fact or fiction for the PhD then it is for the layman.
    Wow! That was a really good explanation.
    From The Treaty of Tripoli, Art. 11, negociated under Washington, passed unanimously by the senate, and signed by Adams -- "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

  3. #23
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by pandion View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is. Facts are events that can be observed by anyone, no matter his level of education. The problem is that educated persons are more likely to be able to explain the facts, while religious persons are more likely to attribute them to mythology.

    True. But an educated person recognizes a non-fact, while a religious person tends to attribute it to a miracle.
    Facts are facts regardless of how they are seen, observed, recognized, explained, or accepted.

    Blue is blue regardless if you think that evolution made blue or God made blue.

  4. #24
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by pandion View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is. Facts are events that can be observed by anyone, no matter his level of education. The problem is that educated persons are more likely to be able to explain the facts, while religious persons are more likely to attribute them to mythology.

    True. But an educated person recognizes a non-fact, while a religious person tends to attribute it to a miracle.

    What select class are you talking about? Certainly not scientists. Scientists publish their findings so that they may be challenged. The point of science is that everything is open to question and should not be accepted without question. Just because you can read about tested scientific investigations does not mean that it is presented as dogma. If you offer educated opposition, then you will be heard.

    It's different because the declarations of priests are followed without question. If you do disagree, then you become a heretic and end up forming yet another christian cult. None of it is based on any sort of real evidence. Just how you understand the mythology of bronze age, nomadic herdsmen.

    Wow! That was a really good explanation.
    You either haven't read the OP or haven't taken what was said in the OP to its logical conclusions. Try reading it again, maybe my statements will make more sense when you put them in the proper context.

    And no, blindly following what a scientist claims is no different than blindly following a priest. Just because one publishes results does not mean they are accessible. Most scientific publications exist behind pay walls. Furthermore the language and data is not meaningful to those outside the field or outside science who have not dedicated half a lifetime studying everything else. Most people who hear about some discovery are expected to just accept it as fact because they have no grounds for challenging it as outsiders.

    That is no different than blindly following a priest. In fact its equivalent to back when all Bibles were in Latin and most people did not speak Latin. There was a barrier then to the people checking to see whether the priest was correctly preaching from the Bible. Now there are barriers to people checking the scientific facts.

  5. #25
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Turns out I am right. Evolution has been regarded as a fact since at least the 1980s.

    “Evolution is a fact, not a theory (Cosmos by Carl Sagan page 17).”

    “Darwin’s words in The origins of Species were:

    Man does not actually produce variability; he only unintentionally exposes organic beings to new conditions of life, and then Nature acts on the organization, and causes variability. But man can and does select the variations given to him by Nature, and thus accumulate them in any desired manner. He thus adapts animals and plants for his own benefit or pleasure. He may do this methodically, or he may do it unconsciously by preserving the individuals most useful to him at the time, without any thought of altering the breed… There is no obvious reason why the principles which have acted so efficiently under domestication should not have acted under Nature… More individuals are born then can possibly survive… The slightest advantage in one being, of any age or during any season, over those with which it comes into competition, or better adaptation in however slight a degree to the surrounding physical conditions, will turn the balance (Cosmos by Carl Sagan page 17).”

    The modern cow did not exist at one point. But through artificial selection (same thing as natural selection except that it is caused by man and not nature) humans created the kind cows we know today. We used artificial selection to evolve a cow which is better suited to our needs. A cow which produces more milk. The same thing has happened, for example, with sheep and sheep dogs. To deny evolution is to deny the existence of the modern cow. This is just ridiculous!

    The only way to deny evolution is to deny that our senses pick up accurate information about our environment. This is also ridiculous. To claim that we misinterpreted the information makes no sense either because we are not interpreting anything, we are just stating what we see has happened over time. Evolution is an observation not an interpretation of observations.
    Last edited by MyXenocide; October 6th, 2011 at 07:47 PM.
    abc

  6. #26
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    This is a bit of a silly thread, because the actual definition of a fact is: "A statement that is provable."

    The idea of evolution is both a theory and a fact. It being called a fact does not mean it is infallibly true.

    Sorry I didn't even bother citing that definition this time, but seriously, I learned that in sixth grade. So people may use the term to mean something that is indisputably true, nowadays, and that sense of it is catered to by Oxford, but I've seen otherwise when it comes to propositional logic.
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  7. #27
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Turns out I am right. Evolution has been regarded as a fact since at least the 1980s.

    “Evolution is a fact, not a theory (Cosmos by Carl Sagan page 17).”

    “Darwin’s words in The origins of Species were:

    Man does not actually produce variability; he only unintentionally exposes organic beings to new conditions of life, and then Nature acts on the organization, and causes variability. But man can and does select the variations given to him by Nature, and thus accumulate them in any desired manner. He thus adapts animals and plants for his own benefit or pleasure. He may do this methodically, or he may do it unconsciously by preserving the individuals most useful to him at the time, without any thought of altering the breed… There is no obvious reason why the principles which have acted so efficiently under domestication should not have acted under Nature… More individuals are born then can possibly survive… The slightest advantage in one being, of any age or during any season, over those with which it comes into competition, or better adaptation in however slight a degree to the surrounding physical conditions, will turn the balance (Cosmos by Carl Sagan page 17).”
    I dont really understand the problem here. Facts are facts. Just because one guy calls something a fact does not make it a fact.

    If you or anyone really believes otherwise, then I challenge you to answer the following questions and offer support for your answer :

    -If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked evolution as a whole, would evolution have still been a fact today?

    - If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked evolution as a whole, would evolution still be a fact for tomorrow? If so, please explain, logically, how evolution can both be fact and fiction at the same time.

    ---------- Post added October 7th, 2011 at 01:37 AM ---------- Previous post was October 6th, 2011 at 11:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    This is a bit of a silly thread, because the actual definition of a fact is: "A statement that is provable."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dictionary
    fact   [fakt] Show IPA
    noun
    1.
    something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by The dictionary
    truth   [trooth] Show IPA
    noun, plural truths  [troothz, trooths] Show IPA.
    1.
    the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
    And then we have opinions :

    Quote Originally Posted by The dictionary
    o·pin·ion   [uh-pin-yuhn] Show IPA
    noun
    1.
    a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
    2.
    a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
    How any rational, logical, and intellectually honest person can say that evolution is a fact is beyond me.

  8. #28
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    @Someguy: You are referring to it's everyday use. I am referring to it's use in science and philosophy, based upon propositional logic. If it were a fact in the everyday use of the term, propositional logic and science would rightly term it an axiom, or law, and it's very, very doubtful that evolution would gain that kind of status.

    From IEP:

    The system of deduction discussed in the previous section is an example of a natural deduction system, i.e., a system of deduction for a formal language that attempts to coincide as closely as possible to the forms of reasoning most people actually employ. Natural systems of deduction are typically contrasted with axiomatic systems. Axiomatic systems are minimalist systems; rather than including rules corresponding to natural modes of reasoning, they utilize as few basic principles or rules as possible. Since so few kinds of steps are available in a deduction, relatively speaking, an axiomatic system usually requires more steps for the deduction of a conclusion from a given set of premises as compared to a natural deduction system.
    Typically, an axiomatic system consists in the specification of certain wffs that are specified as “axioms”. An axiom is something that is taken as a fundamental truth of the system that does not itself require proof. To allow for the deduction of results from the axioms or the premises of an argument, the system typically also includes at least one (and often only one) rule of inference. Usually, an attempt is made to limit the number of axioms to as few as possible, or at least, limit the number of forms axioms can take.
    So, evolution has not elevated to the point that it is based upon premises that are fundamental observations (not needing to be proved).
    There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
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  9. #29
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    @Someguy: You are referring to it's everyday use. I am referring to it's use in science and philosophy, based upon propositional logic. If it were a fact in the everyday use of the term, propositional logic and science would rightly term it an axiom, or law, and it's very, very doubtful that evolution would gain that kind of status.

    From IEP:



    So, evolution has not elevated to the point that it is based upon premises that are fundamental observations (not needing to be proved).
    You can explain it anyway that you want. Justify it anyway that you want but the truth of the matter is this: A fact is a fact. Until something is proven to be a fact, it is not a fact.

    I have challenged you to answer these questions, with support, to justify your position :

    -If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked evolution as a whole, would evolution have still been a fact today?

    - If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked evolution as a whole, would evolution still be a fact for tomorrow? If so, please explain, logically, how evolution can both be fact and fiction at the same time.

    I am waiting.

    Just because you want this to be considered a fact, doesnt make it a fact.

    Facts are facts regardless of schooling degrees, interpretations, observations, best wishes, known science, and anything else.

  10. #30
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    You can explain it anyway that you want. Justify it anyway that you want but the truth of the matter is this: A fact is a fact. Until something is proven to be a fact, it is not a fact.

    I have challenged you to answer these questions, with support, to justify your position :

    -If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked evolution as a whole, would evolution have still been a fact today?

    - If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked evolution as a whole, would evolution still be a fact for tomorrow? If so, please explain, logically, how evolution can both be fact and fiction at the same time.

    I am waiting.

    Just because you want this to be considered a fact, doesnt make it a fact.

    Facts are facts regardless of schooling degrees, interpretations, observations, best wishes, known science, and anything else.
    You've made it apparent that you won't be able to participate in anything of a dialectical conversation with me right now, so I'll just leave you be. You seem a nice enough guy, but I simply am not entertained enough by debating with you, to further explain this matter to you. I've already spelled things out pretty clearly, and you decided to ignore it, so my leaving is most definitely not a concession.

    Have a good one.
    There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
    Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib

  11. #31
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    You've made it apparent that you won't be able to participate in anything of a dialectical conversation with me right now, so I'll just leave you be. You seem a nice enough guy, but I simply am not entertained enough by debating with you, to further explain this matter to you. I've already spelled things out pretty clearly, and you decided to ignore it, so my leaving is most definitely not a concession.

    Have a good one.
    I figured that you would refuse (are unable to) answer the questions. I will count this as a victory.

    As to anyone else, looking for answers to these questions if you believe that evolution is a fact :


    -If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked evolution as a whole, would evolution have still been a fact today?

    - If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked evolution as a whole, would evolution still be a fact for tomorrow? If so, please explain, logically, how evolution can both be fact and fiction at the same time.

  12. #32
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    -If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked evolution as a whole, would evolution have still been a fact today?

    - If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked evolution as a whole, would evolution still be a fact for tomorrow? If so, please explain, logically, how evolution can both be fact and fiction at the same time.
    If either of these things happened we would be forced to throw out all science and start from scratch. If evolution (something that has the most evidence supporting it and has the most explanatory power of all science) is wrong then all other science is most likely wrong as well. Here is a question for you:

    If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked computers as a whole, would computers still work today? So if tomorrow it was proven that computers don't work, would your computer still work today?

    Is this a ridiculous question?
    abc

  13. #33
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Your example and answer are about as absurd as they get. It you really think that the theory of evolution is a fact on the level of computers existing then....I really dont know how to even word the level by which it is unbelievably absurd to compare the two without drawing an infraction.

    Clearly, you have no real answer and are disparately grasping at straws to cringe to a theory that you so want to believe in that it is really entertaining.

    Thus, your lack of ability to defeat my point is taken as you surrendering the argument. Thank you.

  14. #34
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Your example and answer are about as absurd as they get. Clearly, you have no real answer and thus, my point is proven. Thank you.
    No, your question is an impossibility. I see no reason to answer an impossible question. What you suggest can not occur. As you have proven by not answering my question.

    You clearly know nothing about evolution so I don't think I will debate the topic with someone who is completely ignorant. Here is one last thing to think about. If evolution is proven false tomorrow then the modern cow does not exist. It OBVIOUSLY does exist and therefore evolution cannot be proven wrong tomorrow. Your computer OBVIOUSLY works and so cannot be proven to not work tomorrow.

    Thus, your lack of ability to defeat my point is taken as you surrendering the argument. Thank you.
    Good luck living your life with your head up your a**!!
    abc

  15. #35
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Yeah, chief...potentially disproving a THEORY is SO FAR OUTTA LEFT FIELD that its just impossible to even consider....yeah....that makes a world of sense. Forgive me if I am wrong, but to this observer it seems that this theory of evolution is more of a religious function to you than a scientific one. I have read a few posts you have written about religion and it would seem that you take issue with Theist for "blindly" following their religion and accepting it as fact when , ironically and hypocritically, you are doing the exact same thing.

    But hey, if you want evolution to be your religion, go for it. Its no skin off my back.

    There has to be someone that is intelletually honest out there that cares to actually take a stab at the questions I pose and not give me some religious single-mindedness for a response :

    -If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked evolution as a whole, would evolution have still been a fact today?

    - If tomorrow a new scientific break-through occurred that COMPLETELY debunked evolution as a whole, would evolution still be a fact for tomorrow? If so, please explain, logically, how evolution can both be fact and fiction at the same time.

    Looking for real responses, not religious replies like the above.
    Last edited by Someguy; October 7th, 2011 at 08:06 AM.

  16. #36
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Yeah... your right... if evolution was disproven tomorrow the modern cow would just disappear into thin air. Poof like magic... that makes perfect sense. Thanks for setting me straight. Good thing there are smart people like you out there who can educate the rest of us idiots.
    abc

  17. #37
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by MYXENO
    Yeah... your right... if evolution was disproven tomorrow the modern cow would just disappear into thin air. Poof like magic... that makes perfect sense. Thanks for setting me straight. Good thing there are smart people like you out there who can educate the rest of us idiots.
    Are you equating a cow to evolution?

    You do realize there are logically consistent alternatives to evolution, so there is nothing "necessary" about evolution.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  18. #38
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by MT
    You do realize there are logically consistent alternatives to evolution
    which are based on the same observed facts and empirical data as evolution?

  19. #39
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Are you equating a cow to evolution?
    Let me give you another example. Sheep used to give very little poor quality wool. Through selective breading, artificial selection, they now-a-days give lots of high quality wool. This is an observation which we call evolution. If evolution is disproven it would mean that our observation is false. This would mean that sheep today do not give lots of high quality wool in comparison to their ancestors. So if the observation of evolution is false then the modern sheep cannot exist. Yet it does...

    You do realize there are logically consistent alternatives to evolution, so there is nothing "necessary" about evolution.
    Evolution is an observation. It is not a theory, it is not dependent on logic. It is only dependent on our senses. If our senses are so horribly flawed that our observation of evolution is false then I do not see how we could have survived this long. We would have gone extinct a long time ago. Denying evolution is denying an observation, not logic, not theory.

    Evolution is necessary for our reality to exist.
    abc

  20. #40
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    Re: The Cold Hard FACT of Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide
    If evolution is disproven it would mean that our observation is false.
    I'm not really sure, but I think that Someguy was talking about the idea that a fact never changes, and if COMPLETELY DEBUNKING a fact tomorrow would change the past.
    if evolution were disproved, it would only mean that our observations that made up the theory were merely interpreted incorrectly, not false.

 

 
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