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Thread: GOP hypocrisy ?

  1. #21
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?




    On Being "American" vs. "Un-American."


    The American Legion has perpetuating Americanism -- American Exceptionalism -- as one of its missions.

    We Legionnaires define Americanism as:

    "Americanism is love of America; loyalty to her institutions as the best yet devised by man to secure life, liberty, individual dignity, and happiness; and the willingness to defend our country and Flag against all enemies, foreign and domestic. It is a vital, active, living force. Americanism means peace, strength, the will and the courage to live as free men in a free land. It means a friendly hand to people everywhere who respects our institutions and our thinking. It is not a word; it is a cause, a way of life the best way of life ever known a challenge and a hope in this world. Americanism is an ideal of loyal patriotism, religious tolerance, righteous freedom, fearless courage, honest integrity, abiding faith in the commanding destiny of the United States, and a fathomless love for the principles that led our forefathers to found this country. It is complete and unqualified loyalty to the ideals of government as set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. It is respect for, and ready obedience to, duly constituted authority and the laws of the land. It is freedom without license, religion without bigotry, charity without bias, and a desire to secure the blessings of liberty for our nation and for our posterity."

    I define un-American, as any action or belief originating from Americans that opposes Americanism; that opposes American Exceptionalism. The OWS crowd are all un-American. Many of them are just lawless scum.

    These images are all from conservative blogger Todd Kinsey's site. he has many more images there

    http://toddkinsey.com/blog/2011/10/1...t-in-pictures/






    Last edited by Squatch347; October 14th, 2011 at 05:50 AM.
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    These images are all from conservative blogger Todd Kinsey's site. he has many more images there
    That's suppose to be convincing? A leftist can just as easily cherry-pic photos from each rally to the portray the exact opposite. God knows I've seen my share of pics portraying Tea Partiers as stupid, crazy, ignorant, etc.

    Here's a site that shows a bunch of tea party protesters signs, such as morphing Obama into Hitler and such.

    http://evilslutopia.com/2009/04/tea-...orse-ugly.html

    And I fully admit that the link above is likely very biased and what it shows should not be considered the "true" face of the tea party. But then I'm not attempting to make an argument based on such bias. You are.

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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Yes spart, that is one of those posts I'd neg rep if I could. Pure propaganda. Not that its a lie, its just that you are only telling a portion of the truth. There are OWS folks that are very decent and smart, and there are Tea Party folks that are belligerent asshats. And there is the reverse. Trying to support your opinion with such a one sided and un-even collection of evidence just makes you look intellectualy dishonest.

    I'll even go so far as to say my expectation is that right wingers are more dignified and disciplined, qualities I do admire in some situations. But they also tend to be older and dignity and discipline tend to increase with age.

    ---------- Post added at 12:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

    The principle that basically states "from each according to their means, to each according to their needs" is an "un-American" economic principle. Therefore, anyone advocating it would be un-American.
    I would disagree on this to an extent. If you say all should have their needs met in our society, I don't think that is un-american. I think that if you say what you get should be limited strictly to that, that would be un-american. From each according to their means is pretty well consistent with capitalism.

    I'm saying that american values don't end at the line where free market capitalism ends. Charity is not part of capitalism but it is part of america. Our nation might not exist but for the charity of other freedom loving nations. We in turn have been generous in supporting others who cherish our values. Sacrifice for others is common in our culture as is a sense of basic human dignity that goes beyond simply "what can you do for me?"

    Most of the others I tend to agree with, they are contrary to the american spirit, at leas in the absolutist way they are expressed. Absolute open immigration and debt forgiveness are very problematic, though some amount of them would be fitting in america's vision. We have a strong tradition of immigration and sometimes debt forgiveness is required for essential liberty. But unlimited amounts would destroy other critical values america was built upon such as fair trade and cultural pride.
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That's suppose to be convincing? A leftist can just as easily cherry-pic photos from each rally to the portray the exact opposite. God knows I've seen my share of pics portraying Tea Partiers as stupid, crazy, ignorant, etc.

    Here's a site that shows a bunch of tea party protesters signs, such as morphing Obama into Hitler and such.

    http://evilslutopia.com/2009/04/tea-...orse-ugly.html

    And I fully admit that the link above is likely very biased and what it shows should not be considered the "true" face of the tea party. But then I'm not attempting to make an argument based on such bias. You are.
    I think the point is missed by the parallels being drawn. Look at this guy. He seems to be a great guy. He can certainly express his pov articulately, and yet what comes across with crystal clarity is that the references to "corporate greed" besides being inaccurate, are merely a smoke screen for his basic desire for others to take care of him and his needs.



    Now watch this Obama advisor spin what the guy you just watched really wants:

    http://www.breitbart.tv/top-obama-ad...-on-your-side/

    Notice with me that Plouffe qualifies his remarks with "If you're concerned about Wall Street and our financial system", but then goes on to confirm presidential support for OWS, which, as out first video makes plain, is just a talking point for OWS. They are not "concerned about Wall Street". They are concerned to get the rich to pay for what they want. If they could get Wall Street to pay for everything they want to have, it wouldn't matter to them one whit whether it was just or legal or constitutional. Appeals to such noble concepts are semantic means to an end that otherwise have no substance or importance to OWS.

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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    How about the attempted OWS invasion of the National Air and Space museum that required security guards to use pepper spray to fend off attackers? Mistake, or legitimate protest? Was the abuse of local restaurant owners' bathroom facilities by OWS protesters, who neither ate at the restaurant nor paid for the use of their toilets, a mistake, or just protesters doing their thing? What about the people having sex in tarps and selling drugs?
    I already stated that the OWS has made some stupid moves.

    But again, this seems to be the work of a few elements of the group despite your depiction of it being widespread and representative of the group at large. The core message of the movement which is spreading awareness of the widespread social inequality and corporate greed is something that I think is not to be distorted or understated by incidents of stupidity by a minority of followers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Yes, I do. I still maintain that such claims are totally baseless and without merit. I have addressed this issue several times and have never been shown a single instance where a Tea Party movement has officially sanctioned anything of a racist nature or failed to condemn it when it was brought to the attention of organizers.
    You misunderstood, Tal. I'm not saying they were true or not. There were, undeniably, many racists that were, and still are, members of the TEA Party. But it would be problematic to base the actions of a few racists as a representation of the group and its ideals as a whole. I think the same can be said about the OWS movement. It undeniably has radicals and bigots and some of its functions might be financed by unions but it's problematic to turn that into a false representation of the groups as a whole. You were passionate about calling out those that tried to characterize the Tea party movement as racist and regularly corrected those that tried to distort its message, but I think you're doing the same thing with this movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    That's where I disagree with you. I've already provided several pieces of evidence to show that the OWS movement has significant ties to progressive politicians and big unions, but here's another. Turns out that several of Soros' groups are directly involved in funding things like the paper just mentioned, too.
    You do remember that the same was said about the Tea party, right? How the Kock Brothers, each tied for 4th place as the richest Americans in the United States, were bankrolling the movement as a front for their 'anti-government' ideals and their obsession with drastically seeing a reduction in the tax rate and a deregulation of the economy.

    The truth is that there is merit in both claims. But to say the Kock Brothers controlled the Tea party movement, or similarly that unions/progressive groups control the OWS would be a terrible characterization of otherwise leaderless movements looking to get their message across to the general public. I think the fundamental message of both groups should not be distorted by the few ideological extremists from either side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    I provided a link to a craigslist ad by a New York progressive movement which I'm still not sure isn't hiring people for the protest. Sigfried seems to think that they are just going door-to-door and taking donations or handing out literature, but I guess it's difficult to know exactly *what* they're being asked to do without internal memos from the organizations in question.
    Are they really a significant part of the group though? I mean, is it fair to find anything to discredit the movement as an illegitimate, radical and unproductive group of hippies and hooligans?

    To be fair, I think the groups is diverse, perhaps even more diverse than the Tea party currently (Tea party demographics showed that members tended to be Republican, white, male, married and older than 45). Just based on the variety of pictures from the rallies, the OWS seems to be a diverse movement. And I'm sure this article is a highly bias account of the group, but if it has any merit, then it would also support the idea that the OWS is diverse, purportedly comprising: "environmentalists, feminists, former and current Wall Street bankers, traders and brokers, anarchists, socialists, members of the LGBTQ community, teachers, students, Republicans, Democrats, libertarians, people of color, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, retired NYPD police officers, members of the FDNY, journalists, musicians, photographers etc."

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    I do know that a significant number of the people in the OWS protests are part of the very 1% they claim to hate so much.
    That's ironic. Rich college kids complaining about social inequality when they're of the highest social class. I don't know whether they comprise a sizable portion of the group though. I doubt it, but it's a good observation nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    I am aware of their complaints - when there is any sort of coherent message at all. While low pay is one of their complaints, I didn't intend that to mean that I believed it was the sum total of them.
    I think there are parallels between the complaints of Occupy Wall Street and the complaints of the Tea party. Specifically, the anger over the bailout of the banks and the favouritism of the government to big business. It's interesting that both movements believe they're speaking for, and comprised of, the people and both believe that most Americans agree with their cause.

    What would be really productive is if both groups would somehow find some common ground together and work to actually change things in Washington. I think it's doubtful though and that this protest will likely only further polarize the American political system until an event can manage to unite the country. Dissent and competing opinions are healthy but not when groups use violence to further their interests or hold the political system hostage as a way of enforcing their ideals. Though I digress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    I do believe it's fundamentally different; from the outset, this has been spearheaded by unions, Soros' shell organizations, numerous already active socialist and communist political groups, and political powerhouses in Obama's administration.
    I don't know how much truth there is in this statement. I reckon none of it is all false, but I also doubt most of it is true. Or perhaps your conception of who is running the show is different from my conception of the group as a movement without an actual leader and without much direction.

    I think you're overstating the amount of control the above-noted groups and organizations have on the group. As far as I know, whether or not union members are joining the protests, they are not coordinating the rallies and they are not in "control" in any meaningful sense. They likely have some influence and may be attracting members but I think it would be a gross generalization to say any single organization has control over this group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    The Tea Party movement started from multiple initial points using social media and local community organizing,
    I think you'd have a hard time arguing that the OWS did not go viral and help to spread the movement using social media. In fact, every major movement in the past 3-4 years has used social media as a way of organizing and spreading awareness of their cause. It would be illogical not to.

    I also think many of the rallies began by organizers managing to garner enough support of like-minded individuals to eventually gain popularity then spreading to cities across the United States.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Problem is that this *wasn't* started as a grass-roots movement, and it never was. It's followed templates laid out in books like Rules for Radicals since the beginning and has had strong support from day one from people like the Tides Foundation, MoveOn, and Michael Moore,
    I think this is where I largely disagree with your assessment more than anywhere else. The movement was generally spontaneous, appearing almost from nowhere. It was not organized around a political party, around any single ideal or led by any single individual. It began as a movement with a diverse demographic. It began as a movement without much direction. It spread throughout major cities around the United States. I think even its most ardent critics (granted, those that do not believe it is just a big socialist conspiracy to disillusion the "average American" and turn them into commies) would agree it began as a grassroots, leaderless movement.

    I think it's simplistic to say it was "spearheaded by unions/progressive groups and socialists" merely because a few unions and progressive groups decided to donate funds to the cause. It would be as equally disingenuous to say the Tea party was "spearheaded by the NRA and Neo-Nazis" merely because a group of individuals belonging to them decided to donate funds to the group. As of now, no one is actively in control, no one is directing anything nor do they have he ability to steer the group in any direction they want.

    I think we need to get passed this whole depiction that "it's an evil socialist movement funded by unions and full of lazy, unproductive radicals on welfare with nothing better to do with their time than try to destroy the country" and start questioning where it is headed and what the group is looking to achieve.

    Just typing in the term "grassroots movements" onto google yields 11755 article results under the "News" section of current events. Most of them are in relation to the OWS movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Furthermore, they've had positive media spin from the outset, whereas the Tea Party met with constant opposition, slander, and marginalization from the media since their inception.
    I wouldn't disagree with this. I think some in the media seized on opportunities to paint the Tea Party as a sort of fundamentalist, anti-government group of bigots. They were depicted unfairly in many instances.

    But I also think many of those Tea Party members that were crying foul over what they perceived to be unfair treatment by the media and condemnation by the liberal left are suddenly accusing the OWS movement of the same. It's an instance of the pot calling the kettle black. It seems to be a double-standard. But at the same time, I don't have much of a stake in either movement, so I don't feel as passionate about defending it as those that share most of its ideals.
    Last edited by KingOfTheEast; October 12th, 2011 at 05:59 PM.
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That's suppose to be convincing? A leftist can just as easily cherry-pic photos from each rally to the portray the exact opposite. God knows I've seen my share of pics portraying Tea Partiers as stupid, crazy, ignorant, etc.

    Here's a site that shows a bunch of tea party protesters signs, such as morphing Obama into Hitler and such.

    http://evilslutopia.com/2009/04/tea-...orse-ugly.html

    And I fully admit that the link above is likely very biased and what it shows should not be considered the "true" face of the tea party. But then I'm not attempting to make an argument based on such bias. You are.
    Is that link really somehow supposed to equate Tea Party behavior to OWS?


    Sig - please describe a situation where dignity and discipline are not admirable qualities.


    OWS and the Tea Party share a common sentiment - extreme frustration.

    That's all that's shared.
    Last edited by Spartacus; October 13th, 2011 at 09:55 AM.
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Is that link really somehow supposed to equate Tea Party behavior to OWS?
    No, it shows how one can cherry-pick photos to make one side appear a certain way. Just showing a bunch of photos in that fashion does not necessarily represent anything truthful.

    That goes for the link as well as the series of cherry-picked photos in your link. It's not a convincing argument.

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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, it shows how one can cherry-pick photos to make one side appear a certain way. Just showing a bunch of photos in that fashion does not necessarily represent anything truthful.

    That goes for the link as well as the series of cherry-picked photos in your link. It's not a convincing argument.
    If the photos are being cherry-picked, where are all the photos that are different and truly representative of the group, mican? If you want to argue that Spart is mischaracterizing this movement, by carefully sorting through all the pictures taken of it (there isn't a video or picture I've seen that doesn't show at least one other person taping or clicking pics!), all you need do is provide the pictures there are he didn't select in composing his narrative. So where are they?

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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Sig - please describe a situation where dignity and discipline are not admirable qualities.
    Mostly artistic expression. Dramatic performance, comedy, expressing heartfelt emotion (such as making an impassioned plea), sporting events (to some degree), sexual intercourse, play. There are others I think but those all come to mind.
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    If the photos are being cherry-picked, where are all the photos that are different and truly representative of the group, mican? If you want to argue that Spart is mischaracterizing this movement, by carefully sorting through all the pictures taken of it (there isn't a video or picture I've seen that doesn't show at least one other person taping or clicking pics!), all you need do is provide the pictures there are he didn't select in composing his narrative. So where are they?
    It's not like it's hard to find non-embarrassing pics on the net. I just did a quick google search for "occupy Wall street" and pulled a couple of pics that I found that were linked to articles. Here you go.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/...bites_ows.html

    http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/2291...treet-raly.htm


    And btw, a Fox News Poll found that 70% of the people support OWS.

    http://thinkprogress.org/special/201...y-wall-street/

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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And btw, a Fox News Poll found that 70% of the people support OWS.

    http://thinkprogress.org/special/201...y-wall-street/
    Its an online poll, doesn't mean much I think.

    Still, I as I mentioned, while I don't think the OWS crowd is representative in a full sense, they do represent a general unease with the entitlement of elites in power. Both the left and right grass roots are distrustful of that. The only real difference is their characature of what the powers that bee look like and what their ideal of the average "citizen" is.

    I always try to say that people are people. Rich and poor, powerful and weak are all mortal, all fallible, and all human. There is some gulf but its not as big as people imagine it to be.
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Mostly artistic expression. Dramatic performance, comedy, expressing heartfelt emotion (such as making an impassioned plea), sporting events (to some degree), sexual intercourse, play. There are others I think but those all come to mind.
    Wow -- no place for dignity or discipline in those situations?

    ---------- Post added at 12:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Its an online poll, doesn't mean much I think.

    Still, I as I mentioned, while I don't think the OWS crowd is representative in a full sense, they do represent a general unease with the entitlement of elites in power. Both the left and right grass roots are distrustful of that. The only real difference is their characature of what the powers that bee look like and what their ideal of the average "citizen" is.

    I always try to say that people are people. Rich and poor, powerful and weak are all mortal, all fallible, and all human. There is some gulf but its not as big as people imagine it to be.
    The gulf is in the flyover states. Where Tea Party demonstrations broke out spontaneously on Tax Day 2009 -- and were found in big cities and on courthouse lawns all across the country.

    OWS has occurred mainly in large cities and other areas where there is a large, very-far-to-left, professional protester element -- the very people who put Obama in office and were fired up by his candidacy and campaign, and catchy slogans.

    Dick Morris nailed it in his blog today:

    http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/prote...ril-for-obama/



    "There go my followers," they seem to be saying, "and I must go with them because I am their leader."

    Just as the civil rights movement of the late '50s and early '60s and the youthful enthusiasm that animated JFK's candidacy in 1960 energized a generation, so the Obama campaign did in 2008. But just as frustration with Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon and the entire political system turned the idealism of the young into sour cynicism, so the Obama campaign's young enthusiasts have become cynical, bitter opponents of the entire political/economic system. If the Obama campaign harkened back to memories of the civil rights demonstrations of the '60s, so the Occupy Wall Street effort reminds us of SDS, SNCC, hippies, yuppies, the Chicago Seven and Jerry Rubin.

    The fact is that Obama is less a socialist than a corporatist. His objective is not government ownership, but government management. To control the economy -- and all of our lives -- he needs to get rid of small banks and small business and consolidate it all in a few big banks and big corporations; hence his friendliness to Goldman-Sachs and General Motors. When wealthy tycoons go to dinners and give Obama $35,000 donations, they know what they are doing. It is not liberal Democratic masochism at work, it is a conscious investment in central planning where big labor, big government, big business and big banks meet and divvy up the pie, just as they do in Germany and France. That is Obama's game.

    His former supporters have taken to the streets to protest his corporatist alliances. Sure, they oppose the Republicans and the conservatives, but they have more in common with the Tea Party than they realize. Both are acting out against big business. Wall Street is as much the enemy of Main Street as it is of college campuses.

    The unions and the professional left are scrambling, along with Obama and the Democrats, to head off the stampede among their followers in the Occupy Wall Street movement. They are trying to make up for their pro-Wall Street policies by seeming to take on rich people in their tax program. But the young demonstrators will not be fooled. They invested their dreams for Obama in 2008 and, since then, have gotten only compromises, half-measures, incompetence and a ruined economy in return.
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Wow -- no place for dignity or discipline in those situations?
    I didn't say that, but generally speaking they are situations where an excess of dignity and discipline are highly problematic. Wild creativity, the willingness to make a fool of yourself, a show of strong emotion are all very important in those situations and run contrary to dignity and discipline.

    Take acting. I've been an actor, both volunteer and paid. It takes discipline in the sense you need to have a work ethic about it, but it also takes a lack of discipline, allowing yourself to cut loose and be the kind of person that you would normally be shamed to be in public. Part of the appeal of acting is you can express what others are restricted from expressing by the norms of society and the expectations of daily life. You have to become unfettered to do that. And when it comes to dignity, well you often have to shed that entirely as you are not yourself but a tool for story telling.

    And I can tell you that too much dignity and discipline is an anathema to passionate lovemaking. I'm sure that's something you know about for yourself so I won't go into detail.

    And Spart: Until you stop underestimating your opponents, they will continue to surprise you in victory. You continually make cartoon characters out of the people you disagree with. I challenge you to actually go out to one of these demonstrations if one is near by and talk to them in person. Get a feel who they really are and not make goofy charactures out of them.
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post

    And Spart: You continually make cartoon characters out of the people you disagree with. I challenge you to actually go out to one of these demonstrations if one is near by and talk to them in person. Get a feel who they really are and not make goofy charactures out of them.
    I don't need to make cartoon characters out of people in these demonstrations. They do that all by themselves.



    For the benefit of those that can't see the video:

    A tall very skinny, middle aged guy with a bushy beard, and a bull-horn is leading an "assembly" of several hundred people at Occupy Atlanta in a "meeting with an agenda". Congressman John Lewis, a hero of the Civil Rights Movement asks to address them.

    The skinny guy with the bull horn, speaks one sentence at a time. The crowd repeats every sentence after they hear it. Like a scene straight out of Animal Farm!

    The crowd is filled with a mix of people. Many are obvious communists and socialists wearing red shirts.

    There is even a guy by the Congressman wearing a shirt with the Teamsters emblem on the front -- and the words "Union Thug" on the back... HAHAHAHA

    Eventually -- after a tiny amount of debate on letting the Congressman speak...debate that sounds a lot like of sheep bleeting, and takes forever as every speaker has his/her words repeated by the whole crowd -- the Congressman is turned away. But only after they have a "straw poll" on the issue of him speaking -- and the skinny guy ignores all the hands signifying they want to hear him...and says "We don't have a consensus! Mic Check! Mic Check! We don't have a consensus!"

    It's like something the creators of South Park would come up with and have Cartman be the guy with the bullhorn....

    Classic!

    No thank you on joining them Sig. I spent time as a stupid teen marching with such groups in 1981-82 -- I know what happens at those things. I marched on Washington in September 1981. I know what they are about. I am well-familiar with the interesting and diverse cross-section such events draw. I've heard Jessie Jackson speak while I was only a few feet away....Been there. Done that. Know what they are all about. And yes, I still have the T-Shirts...they make for great rags.

    That is why I can state from experience -- the Tea Party operates very differently. It's members behave very differently, and seek the change they want, within the framework of our system. They don't seek to tear it down,or to engage in class warfare. The Tea Party very quickly made its concerns known. They asked elected officials to address their concerns, and put up candidates from their own ranks whenever they felt none had their concerns at heart. That's Democracy in America gets things done.
    Last edited by Spartacus; October 13th, 2011 at 12:41 PM.
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    I really don't like the speak-and-repeat thing that is going on. It seems like they have adapted it as a way to make sure everyone can hear what someone says... but it's also a scary psychological "join the herd" method. Like, very scary. Nazi scary. Catholic church scary.
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
    I really don't like the speak-and-repeat thing that is going on. It seems like they have adapted it as a way to make sure everyone can hear what someone says... but it's also a scary psychological "join the herd" method. Like, very scary. Nazi scary. Catholic church scary.
    Animal Farm scary.

    Even the "No on one person is more important than any other one person" bit....except of course for the guy with the bullhorn. Who never gives it up...and chooses to ignore the seeming majority of people in the crowd..."Mic Check! Mic Check! We don't have a consensus!...We don't have a consensus!" Some are more equal than others after all. That is how this group's "leader" can manipulate the audience from warmly applauding the idea of the Congressman speaking to "not having a consensus on the topic" and turning him away unheard.

    I'm still laughing at the complete idiocy of it all. If the one guy would just give people the bull horn to speak...they could all be heard...but no...he seems to enjoy hearing his every word repeated in unison by the gathered masses of like-minded individuals expressing their own views...LOL.

    Here's a hint -- be wary of any group that wants you to repeat everything they say.
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Mican, I did a search myself using your phrase and adding the word "pics" to it. Honestly, the pictures that came up ran about 10 to 1 negative, and the vast majority of the negative pics were extremely negative....enough to make me ashamed to call these people my fellow Americans.

    As for the Fox poll, it's slipping a bit since you wrote your post.

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/...views-economy/

    However, besides the fact online polls are famously easy to manipulate and for that reason unscientific, do you recall that poll that was being cited, and still is, for that matter, which showed that 2/3's of Americans think the rich should be taxed more?

    Here's a CBS poll that shows something like this, but interestingly enough shows the percentage of Americans who think the rich pay too little in taxes declining over time:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...67-503544.html

    Here's another, this one from a Soros funded far left website (Center for American Progress) showing a strong majority of Americans, when asked, think the rich should pay more in taxes:

    http://www.americanprogress.org/issu...hot101111.html

    But no one ever tells ypu about the polling that was done that explain why Americans think the rich pay too little in taxes. According to this AEI compilation of public opinion polls (page 27) in 2003 only one quarter of Americans polled thought the rich paid the most in taxes, while fully half of Americans thought the greatest tax burden was shouldered by the middle class. When this is coupled with the polling data showing that fully 70% of Americans believe the maximum rate for income taxes, regardless of income, should be 20% or less, we begin to see the real disparity between tax reality and perception by the polling respondents. Recent tax data shows the richest 1% of income earners pay 19% of their income in federal income taxes. Yet recent polls, as seen above, say nearly 70% of Americans think the richest Americans should pay more in federal income taxes.

    The point is that what Americans think of as "fair" when it comes to paying federal income taxes is being manipulated by those with a stake in class warfare. People are trading on American ignorance to produce a false narrative that is getting traction amid all the attendant Drum and Strang of OWS. It is a movement that appeals to all the baser traits of human beings: ignorance, envy, sloth. If it succeeds America will be worse than it was, not better.

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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    I don't need to make cartoon characters out of people in these demonstrations. They do that all by themselves.
    I'll give you that one Spart.
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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Animal Farm scary.

    Even the "No on one person is more important than any other one person" bit....except of course for the guy with the bullhorn. Who never gives it up...and chooses to ignore the seeming majority of people in the crowd..."Mic Check! Mic Check! We don't have a consensus!...We don't have a consensus!" Some are more equal than others after all. That is how this group's "leader" can manipulate the audience from warmly applauding the idea of the Congressman speaking to "not having a consensus on the topic" and turning him away unheard.

    I'm still laughing at the complete idiocy of it all. If the one guy would just give people the bull horn to speak...they could all be heard...but no...he seems to enjoy hearing his every word repeated in unison by the gathered masses of like-minded individuals expressing their own views...LOL.

    Here's a hint -- be wary of any group that wants you to repeat everything they say.
    For me the scariest aspect of the whole deal isn't the guy with the bullhorn. It's the crowd of zombies sitting in front of him. I have to ask myself at what point did these folks lose their capacity to become intellectually insulted?

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    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    For me the scariest aspect of the whole deal isn't the guy with the bullhorn. It's the crowd of zombies sitting in front of him. I have to ask myself at what point did these folks lose their capacity to become intellectually insulted?
    They guy with the bullhorn does kind of freak out at the end there... almost like he was loosing control... of a crowd that is working by consensus... Funny.

    Those folks are learning some lessons no doubt. Lessons about how good intentions, idealism and practicality collide. At least they go off their asses and decided to do something. Sooner or later they will come to understand that you just can't do everything democratically, its inefficient and consensus is not something you can always achieve, nor should you.
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