Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 73

Thread: GOP hypocrisy ?

  1. #1
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,483
    Post Thanks / Like

    GOP hypocrisy ?

    Anyone that has been paying attention has been made aware of this 'occupy Wall Street' "movement"

    This thread will be not specifically about the "movement" but rather predominate GOP members statements / attitudes towards it.

    I contend that predominate members of the GOP are being hypocritical with regards to the people participating in this "movement" to the extend that they are failing to respect the 1st Amendment right to protest. Considering that the GOP are the supposed stewards and protectors of the Constitution, I find it to be very hypocritical that they now bastardize individuals that are exercising their Constitutional rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by AP (not super reliable I know)
    Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain on Wednesday called the Occupy Wall Street protesters anti-American and anti-capitalistic. Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain on Wednesday called the Occupy Wall Street protesters anti-American and anti-capitalistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh
    These people are tools. They are abject tools. They are an embarrassment. I mean the Vietnam War crowd is embarrassed at this bunch, how stupid they are, and then to be steered onto the Brooklyn Bridge where they can then be charged with a crime for obstructing a roadway? This is a bunch of idiots. How did the SEIU end up with your phone number?
    And I could go on and on and on. Granted, I think the ideas behind the Occupy movement are absurd and their "demands" are suicidal to our nation and idiotic beyond belief, but, that does not mean that these people are "un-American" nor does it mean that they "shouldnt" be protesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    Basically, they have the right to petition the government for redress of grievances as they see them and the right to peacefully assemble.

    In my view, the correct thing for the GOP to do would be to recognizes these peoples rights protected under the First Amendment and not attack them individually. Attack the ideas, sure, but recognize and respect the people for exercising their rights. This would be consistent with the idea that the GOP is protector of the Constitution and constitutional rights.

  2. #2
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,474
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Unless they are calling for them to be forcibly removed or some such, I'm not sure its hypocritical. Calling them idiots and mocking them is more or less fair game.

    Personally I respect their spirit, they are exercising their speech in the most fundamental way and putting their asses on the line. I think many of their demands or aspirations are absurd but there is a balance of power that needs to be addressed in some way.

    It would be nice if they got some respect all around on that. But they know that the powers that be are not in support of them, that is to some extent their burden to bear. And they can handle the unkind words I think.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  3. #3
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    139
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Anyone that has been paying attention has been made aware of this 'occupy Wall Street' "movement"

    This thread will be not specifically about the "movement" but rather predominate GOP members statements / attitudes towards it.

    I contend that predominate members of the GOP are being hypocritical with regards to the people participating in this "movement" to the extend that they are failing to respect the 1st Amendment right to protest. Considering that the GOP are the supposed stewards and protectors of the Constitution, I find it to be very hypocritical that they now bastardize individuals that are exercising their Constitutional rights.





    And I could go on and on and on. Granted, I think the ideas behind the Occupy movement are absurd and their "demands" are suicidal to our nation and idiotic beyond belief, but, that does not mean that these people are "un-American" nor does it mean that they "shouldnt" be protesting.

    Basically, they have the right to petition the government for redress of grievances as they see them and the right to peacefully assemble.

    In my view, the correct thing for the GOP to do would be to recognizes these peoples rights protected under the First Amendment and not attack them individually. Attack the ideas, sure, but recognize and respect the people for exercising their rights. This would be consistent with the idea that the GOP is protector of the Constitution and constitutional rights.
    It seems to me that the first thing anyone does when it comes to their political beliefs is claim the "other side" is not respecting their right to free speech, when in fact, the "other side" is simply exercising that same right. While it is annoying, messy, and frustrating, this is a part of why the First Amdenment to the Constitution is there, to give everyone a voice, even the arses and morons. Nobody ever said that anyone has to listen to them, or believe what they say, however.

    Mocking the opposition is a time-honored tradition in human history. Both sides are going to say whatever they believe is necessary to make themselves look better and their opposition look worse. We may not like what is said, we may find it insulting, ignorant, and innacurate, but it is up to the people to evaluate what both sides are saying and determine what they think, feel, believe, is correct and what is not.

    People tend to get exactly the government they deserve. So here we all are, with what amounts to a schizophrenic mess of a government, getting exactly what we deserve. Political extremism, of either polarity, can only add to the problems we are already facing. There are far too many people who have misplaced their affiliation to a political party as being the same as loyalty to their country, and as long as this disparity remains, we will be hopelessly divided among ourselves. We either grow up and stop this nonsense, or watch this nation continue to crumble.
    Last edited by tanstaafl28; October 10th, 2011 at 02:20 AM. Reason: minor editing

  4. #4
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    First, I share the opinion that Sigfried expressed in saying that unless republicans and conservatives are actively harassing or otherwise trying to suppress the Occupy Wall Street people, they are not guilty of any hypocrisy. In fact, they are extending a much greater courtesy to the OWS group than many conservative groups have been shown. Nobody's using infiltrators to paint the OWS group as anything other than what they are, and nobody's trying to insert provocateurs to give the movement a bad name, as liberals have done on numerous occasions to Tea Party rallies and other conservative protests.

    Furthermore, there is some merit to Limbaugh's claim that these guys are tools. There is clear evidence that the whole OWS movement has a strong tie to George Soros' "Tides Foundation," who is known to be a significant supporter of both the Obama administration and other groups that push Progressive and Socialist agendas. And it's not just the Tides Foundation, either. Other Soros foundations are contributing as well.

    the original call to “Occupy Wall Street” came from the magazine AdBusters, an “anti-consumerist” publication financed by, among other sources, the Soros-funded Tides Foundation.

    Other Soros-backed outfits promoting big government — some with myriad ties to the Obama administration — are also publicly driving the occupation campaign. MoveOn.org, for instance, has received millions of dollars from the billionaire banker. And now, the group is urging its supporters to join the Occupy Wall Street movement as well.

    “Over the last two weeks, an amazing wave of protest against Wall Street and the big banks has erupted across the country,” MoveOn said in a recent e-mail to supporters, praising the “brave” demonstrators. “On Wednesday, MoveOn members will join labor and community groups in New York City for a huge march down to the protest site — the biggest yet.”

    On top of supplying activists to join the demonstrations, MoveOn is also staging what it calls a “massive ‘Virtual March on Wall Street’ online.” The Internet-based demonstrations are a collaborative effort with another radical and well-connected outfit tied to Soros called Rebuild the Dream.
    Other groups working with Rebuild the Dream are also publicly hyping the demonstrations. And more than a few of them are on the Soros payroll as well. Some examples include People For The American Way, Planned Parenthood, Campaign For America's Future, Democracy For America, Leadership Conference for Civil and Human Rights, Common Cause, Public Campaign, and many more.

    And on the subject of "Rebuild the Dream," it's led by self-avowed Communist and former Obama adminstration "Green Jobs Czar" Van Jones, who has on several occasions advocated violent revolution in America to bring about the sort of political and social change he wants.

    But it's not just Soros; big union bosses and other progressive movers and shakers like ACORN are actively pushing this OWS protest movement.

    Community organizer Stephen Lerner of the SEIU, a regular White House guest, was caught on video in March discussing the scheme to “bring down the stock market” and "destabilize" the nation — all with the stated goal of "redistributing wealth." And while the whole conspiracy was not revealed because Lerner suspected police were present, the strategies he mentioned included civil disobedience and mass anti-banker protests.

    Another conspirator said to be pulling the strings, disgraced ACORN founder and union boss Wade Rathke, was advocating massive “Day of Rage” protests targeting bankers earlier this year. And he is also closely tied to Obama, who actually used to work for Rathke’s “community organizing” outfit.

    Furthermore, there are several major political action groups dedicated to the spread of Communism and Socialism pushing this movement, as well:

    Beyond Big Labor and Soros “front groups,” as critics call them, is also a vast collection of socialist and Marxist organizations supporting the demonstrations. The Socialist Party USA, the Marxist-oriented Workers World Party, the International Committee of the Fourth International, and the Communist Party USA-affiliated People’s World are all publicly and openly backing the movement.

    So... I really don't see any merit to the claims that the GOP is being hypocritical, and it seems that Limbaugh is spot on the money. Until you have some legitimate accusations of deliberate falsehood to lay against the GOP, it may be wiser to refrain from pointing fingers about hypocrisy. So far, the only people guilty of deception are the OWS people themselves and their financiers, who want us to believe that this is a "leaderless movement" that is a genuine grassroots effort from concerned citizens. In reality, it's nothing more than a barely-concealed and well-financed effort to mobilize as many people as possible on behalf of big government programs, all thoroughly tied to the Obama administration.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  5. #5
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,474
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    LOL Talthas.

    Look, just because one liberal group lend aid to another doesn't mean its a shadowy network of secret operatives with a master plan for world domination. Everyone has ties to everyone in this world of ours, especially if you have similar ideologies. A friend of mine went down to check out the local protest and hung out for an hour, clearly I am also one of the masterminds of this plot to bring soviet tanks down Pennsylvania avenue!!

    Go down and actually check one of these things out... they are pretty much a bunch of college kids with an ideological fixation and time to burn. Not some secret army of the left wing masterminds.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  6. #6
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Incidentally: here is tangible proof that this is anything but a "grassroots" movement of the people. It's, in fact, more likely that it's an astroturf demonstration peppered with paid employees.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/10/political-party-paying-occupy-wall-street-protesters/



    Here's the ad.

    For those candidates that qualify WFP offers substantial paid-training provided by senior leadership, on varied issues such as: advocacy, public speaking, mobilizing, fundraising, networking and organizing. We invest in passionate people with excellent communication skills and a full benefits package is offered to those candidates that qualify. In addition, there is opportunity for advancement and travel to our satellite chapters and out of state affiliates.

    This is not a policy job! Through direct action you will be shaping NY state politics for the next 20 years.
    “Direct action” usually means protesting. In other words, WFP wants Astroturfers, presumably to join other Astroturfers who tire of their career at Wall Street in the coming days. I wonder how many of those currently at the #OWS protests are already drawing a salary from WFP?

    And this is only one ad we've found on Craigslist. We have no way of obtaining internal memos from Tides or any of the other Soros foundations. I'm not just firing off "shadowy network" conspiracy theories here... here's hard proof that people are paying these folks to be here. Maybe not all of them, but there's demonstrably at least some portion of them that are there for the money. It's fine if you want to laugh at hard evidence, but don't pretend you're doing hard research by going down and talking to a few people who have ample reason to lie to you about their true motives for being there. It's pretty easy to track the money back to where it came from.

    It's a common tactic of the liberal left to dismiss associations like this as "conspiracy theory," when it's nothing of the sort.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  7. #7
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,474
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Incidentally: here is tangible proof that this is anything but a "grassroots" movement of the people. It's, in fact, more likely that it's an astroturf demonstration peppered with paid employees.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/10/political-party-paying-occupy-wall-street-protesters/


    And this is only one ad we've found on Craigslist.
    Actually, that is for fund raisers, people who go door to door asking for money to fuel their political organization. how do I know? I've responded to those adds before. They make it sound like you will be doing activism and such, but really they give you about an hours training and then send you into neighborhoods with a clip board and money pouch.

    When I showed up for my interview in suit and tie they took one look at me and said "this job isn't for you." And after they explained what it was, I agreed.

    Liberal groups don't spend money on protesters, they get those for free. They spend money on printing, advertising, supplies, rent, and lobbyists primarily.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  8. #8
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    741
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Both the TEA Party and the OWS movements have legitimate concerns, but both movements believe that the other side either has misplaced anger or are not a legitimate movement. The TEA party movement advocates limited government intervention, reduction in the deficit and lower taxes. They basically believe the problem (not the solution) is the government. On the other hand, the OWS movement advocates an end to 'corporate welfare' (an end to handouts to corporations including bailouts) and most of them seem to be staunchly anti-war, in support of bringing the American troops out of the two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Both movements have, at times, been accused of being bankrolled by special interest groups or rich elite (Kock brothers with the TEA Party, and large unions with the OWS movement).

    I know some will question why they're being compared, but I think it's inevitable. You just can't avoid the similarities in both groups regardless whether any staunch ideologue from either side fails to recognize them.
    "Those who would give up ESSENTIAL LIBERTY to purchase a little TEMPORARY SAFETY deserve neither LIBERTY nor SAFETY."--Pennsylvania Assembly

  9. #9
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,893
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    We have the right to peaceably assemble. Shutting down Brooklyn Bridge, a major transportation hub, is not peaceful assembly and you have to admit that its a rather stupid and toolish act.

  10. #10
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast View Post
    I know some will question why they're being compared, but I think it's inevitable. You just can't avoid the similarities in both groups regardless whether any staunch ideologue from either side fails to recognize them.
    The problem with the comparison is that while Tea Party people tend toward clean, law-abiding, family-friendly gatherings full of patriotism and an invitation to open dialogue, the OWS group and people like them have shown yet again that they tend toward debauchery, drug abuse, defilement of public property, and violence. Even local museums have had to use pepper spray on protesters who became violent outside their doors, and the NYPD has had multiple run-ins with the protesters who have started fights with them. Multiple arrests have been made at "Occupy" functions. Try finding more than a handful of arrests at the sum total of Tea Party movements, and you'll be looking all day. Certainly not for violent offenses or charges of the sort that have happened at the progressive rallies.

    Another dissimilarity is the duration of the respective groups' protests. While the Tea Party rallies tend to be fairly short because the vast majority of protesters have jobs they have to go back to (and have probably had to take off from to come to the rallies in the first place), the "Occupy" movement, like the Wisconsin protests before it, are astroturfed people either paid by Unions or other Progressive groups, or they are unemployed, on benefits, or otherwise non-productive people, and - accordingly - last for days or even weeks. There are dozens of reports of people showing up to the OWS rallies just for the food, even with comments like, "I eat better here than I do at home." It's people complaining about low pay while tweeting and texting their angst on expensive smartphones and laptop computers with portable wifi connections that *somebody* had to pay for. Perhaps if they'd spend less time complaining about wall street and more time being productive at their job, they'd have a better salary.

    The "similarities" are only the most superficial sort, and they dissolve into nothing when examined with even a hint of a critical eye.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  11. #11
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    741
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    The problem with the comparison is that while Tea Party people tend toward clean, law-abiding, family-friendly gatherings full of patriotism and an invitation to open dialogue, the OWS group and people like them have shown yet again that they tend toward debauchery, drug abuse, defilement of public property, and violence.
    I think this may be a generalization. Do I think there are elements of radical, provocative and bigoted individuals that are part of this movement? There certainly are. You'll find them in all rallies in any movement. Do I think they reflect the group as a whole? Probably not. I think most of those involved in the rally are well-intentioned individuals that are angry over the amount of inequality in American society and desire to express it. Granted, I think their protests of the Brooklyn Bridge as a means of disrupting traffic was a mistake and not a way to express frustration.

    Do you remember when many people began to claim that most TEA partiers were a bunch of extremist right-wing bigots? Or the articles about the reports which indicated that many Tea party members, including those that were members of the Republican party, had ties to extremist, anti-Semitic and openly racist organizations? How about when individuals started blaming the Arizona shooting (involving Congresswomen Gabriel Giffords) with the sentiment exposed by the Tea party? Most of those were generalizations because your 'common' Tea party member wanted an honest, transparent and responsible federal government and they had generally peaceful intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Multiple arrests have been made at "Occupy" functions. Try finding more than a handful of arrests at the sum total of Tea Party movements, and you'll be looking all day. Certainly not for violent offenses or charges of the sort that have happened at the progressive rallies.
    I agree. I think the TEA party rallies were generally peaceful (despite the calls to violence by a few extremist bigots or a few isolated incidents involving arrests). Though there were incidents at rallies which turned violent or were becoming more hostile.

    I do not deny that there are stark differences between the two movements. What I'm arguing against is the notion that the movements are somehow fundamentally different than those of the TEA party. Sure there are differences but minus the violence and arrests of certain protests involved in the OWS movement, both share a fundamental grassroots, leaderless structure involving individuals who are angry about the state of affairs in American society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Another dissimilarity is the duration of the respective groups' protests. While the Tea Party rallies tend to be fairly short because the vast majority of protesters have jobs they have to go back to (and have probably had to take off from to come to the rallies in the first place), the "Occupy" movement, like the Wisconsin protests before it, are astroturfed people either paid by Unions or other Progressive groups, or they are unemployed, on benefits, or otherwise non-productive people, and - accordingly - last for days or even weeks.
    Do you have support for this? Do you have evidence that the protesters in the "Occupy Wall Street" movement are "astroturfed people" that are either paid by Unions/progressive groups, unemployed, on benefits, or otherwise unproductive? I assume this would be a general and apparent phenomenon and not an isolated incident? You may be right, but I highly doubt those characterizations apply to the movement at large. It is still a relatively new and expanding movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    There are dozens of reports of people showing up to the OWS rallies just for the food, even with comments like, "I eat better here than I do at home." It's people complaining about low pay while tweeting and texting their angst on expensive smartphones and laptop computers with portable wifi connections that *somebody* had to pay for.
    I think it may be more than just people complaining about low pay. The OWS movement involves a diversity of opinions relating to frustration over: corporate greed, government bailouts, government favouritism of corporations (i.e. crony capitalism), tuition fees, inequality, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq etc.

    The initial diversity of the TEA party rallies featured individuals angry about: the growing deficit, enlarged debt, high unemployment, high taxes, expansive regulation, Obamacare, bailouts etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Perhaps if they'd spend less time complaining about wall street and more time being productive at their job, they'd have a better salary.
    Again, I think the issue pertains to where people choose to direct their anger. You (as a TEA Partier) are of the view that the problem begins with the government and its growing size. They are of the view that the problem begins with the large corporations and corporate greed which the government only exacerbates by favouring large businesses. It's a challenge for competing opinions but it is not somehow fundamentally different than other movements which seek to express their frustration with issues in American society, granted they exclude any violent inclinations during their protests.
    "Those who would give up ESSENTIAL LIBERTY to purchase a little TEMPORARY SAFETY deserve neither LIBERTY nor SAFETY."--Pennsylvania Assembly

  12. #12
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Where ever you tell me, Drill Sergeant!
    Posts
    2,201
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Ahahahhahah. HHAHHhahhahah. ahhahhaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!

    The Tea Party starts as a grass-roots movement against big government, it gets invaded by establishment Republicans, and then gets painted as a big-business fronted, racist, idiot-filled joke with no real direction.

    Then, the OWS thing gets started as a grass-roots movement against big corporations and the Fed, it gets invaded by establishment Democrats, and then gets painted as a big-business fronted, socialist, idiot-filled joke with no real direction.

    You can't make this crap up. I am laughing my ass off.
    The Signature Religion is the one true religion. I know this is true, because it says so right here in this signature.

  13. #13
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Southern California, USA
    Posts
    2,018
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Anyone that has been paying attention has been made aware of this 'occupy Wall Street' "movement"

    This thread will be not specifically about the "movement" but rather predominate GOP members statements / attitudes towards it.

    I contend that predominate members of the GOP are being hypocritical with regards to the people participating in this "movement" to the extend that they are failing to respect the 1st Amendment right to protest. Considering that the GOP are the supposed stewards and protectors of the Constitution, I find it to be very hypocritical that they now bastardize individuals that are exercising their Constitutional rights.

    And I could go on and on and on. Granted, I think the ideas behind the Occupy movement are absurd and their "demands" are suicidal to our nation and idiotic beyond belief, but, that does not mean that these people are "un-American" nor does it mean that they "shouldnt" be protesting.
    Nonsense. If you're against everything American, except for your right to say so, you're "un-American" by definition. Do you have to be "American" to protest America in America? No, which is one of the reasons why America is so great. But let's not get confused about what it means to be "un-American" just because there are large numbers of Americans how love America, and love being what America stands for, which includes being against anything or anyone who is un-American.

    Herman Cain should be applauded for correctly characterizing these people without hyperbole. They are un-American (at any rate the ones getting the coverage), and they are anti-capitalist. Here is a partial list of demands put up (although not officially endorsed by) Occupy Wall Street online:
    "Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

    Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

    Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

    Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

    Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

    Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

    Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
    Besides being incredibly naive the above has one other overriding characteristic: an obvious distain for capitalism and free markets, and a great love for totalitarian type government so long as that government takes from the achiever and gives to the under achiever.

    Basically, they have the right to petition the government for redress of grievances as they see them and the right to peacefully assemble.
    However, peacefully means lawfully, and these protests have a great many people in them that are more than willing to break laws. This is one of the biggest differences between OWS and the Tea Party. Another huge difference, the Tea Party has been from the very beginning clear on its message. Lower spending, shrink government; two things that go hand in hand. OWS is now two weeks along and they can't find a mission statement. All they have are individuals expressing their personal opinions to reporters. Of course, in the last week the unions have come on board, so expect more organization shortly. Also expect the movement to be co-opted by the Johnny-come-lately organizers, which is yet another glaring difference between OWS (when it happens) and the Tea Party.

    In my view, the correct thing for the GOP to do would be to recognizes these peoples rights protected under the First Amendment and not attack them individually. Attack the ideas, sure, but recognize and respect the people for exercising their rights. This would be consistent with the idea that the GOP is protector of the Constitution and constitutional rights.
    The GOP is the protector of the Constitution and constitutional rights. When you are something, you don't need to go around proclaiming that's what you are every time you express that you're against what a group is doing and what they stand for. The GOP doesn't have to preface every statement for public consumption with "While we deeply respect their constitutional right to say so..."

    Finally, you've implied the GOP is verbally attacking the protesters "individually", yet have supplied no documentation to that effect. I find the idea that the RNC has sent official representatives out to verbally castigate individual OWS protesters pretty absurd. If you're going to make an outlandish claim, you need to back it up.

  14. #14
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast View Post
    Granted, I think their protests of the Brooklyn Bridge as a means of disrupting traffic was a mistake and not a way to express frustration.
    How about the attempted OWS invasion of the National Air and Space museum that required security guards to use pepper spray to fend off attackers? Mistake, or legitimate protest? Was the abuse of local restaurant owners' bathroom facilities by OWS protesters, who neither ate at the restaurant nor paid for the use of their toilets, a mistake, or just protesters doing their thing? What about the people having sex in tarps and selling drugs?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast
    Do you remember when many people began to claim that most TEA partiers were a bunch of extremist right-wing bigots?
    Yes, I do. I still maintain that such claims are totally baseless and without merit. I have addressed this issue several times and have never been shown a single instance where a Tea Party movement has officially sanctioned anything of a racist nature or failed to condemn it when it was brought to the attention of organizers. The fact that numerous black politicians have come out in strong support of the Tea Party should be evidence enough that the Tea Party, if it contains racist elements at all (in excess to the normal percentage one might find in any cross-section of the population), it is certainly not sufficient to taint the message of smaller government, lower taxes, and personal responsibility. In fact, even in one of the articles you mentioned about the few instances of Tea Party violence, one of the two mentioned was because Tea Party members were trying to eject Neo Nazis from their protest because of their racist attitudes, which the TPM protesters believed reflected badly on their protest and didn't fairly represent their views.

    To the specific point of your article and Morgan Freeman's unfortunate and totally misguided characterization of the Tea Party as racists, I offer you the following open letter from a leading African-American Tea Party organizer. At every turn, Tea Party organizers have done their level best to include anyone of any race, creed, or nationality that wanted to be a part of the group, to the best of my knowledge. At every turn, black people at Tea Party gatherings have felt comfortable, safe, and in no way disrespected, as far as I can discern. I've even seen interviews done where black people in attendance have specifically been asked about this, and all of them have been very positive about the way they were treated. So... this isn't really a valid point.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast
    How about when individuals started blaming the Arizona shooting (involving Congresswomen Gabriel Giffords) with the sentiment exposed by the Tea party?
    Turns out that Laughtner was a fairly liberal-leaning person and had no ties to the TPM whatsoever. In fact, the coverage that the MSM gave the whole set of events surrounding the shooting demonstrates the horrible leftist bias that exists in our media today. Once it came out that the guy had nothing to do with the Tea Party, the story just dropped off the face of the eart.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast
    I do not deny that there are stark differences between the two movements. What I'm arguing against is the notion that the movements are somehow fundamentally different than those of the TEA party. Sure there are differences but minus the violence and arrests of certain protests involved in the OWS movement, both share a fundamental grassroots, leaderless structure involving individuals who are angry about the state of affairs in American society.
    That's where I disagree with you. I've already provided several pieces of evidence to show that the OWS movement has significant ties to progressive politicians and big unions, but here's another. Turns out that several of Soros' groups are directly involved in funding things like the paper just mentioned, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast
    Do you have support for this? Do you have evidence that the protesters in the "Occupy Wall Street" movement are "astroturfed people" that are either paid by Unions/progressive groups, unemployed, on benefits, or otherwise unproductive? I assume this would be a general and apparent phenomenon and not an isolated incident? You may be right, but I highly doubt those characterizations apply to the movement at large. It is still a relatively new and expanding movement.
    I provided a link to a craigslist ad by a New York progressive movement which I'm still not sure isn't hiring people for the protest. Sigfried seems to think that they are just going door-to-door and taking donations or handing out literature, but I guess it's difficult to know exactly *what* they're being asked to do without internal memos from the organizations in question.

    I do know that a significant number of the people in the OWS protests are part of the very 1% they claim to hate so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Daily Mail
    But on the ground at the epicentre of the Occupy Wall Street demonstration, a closer look at some of the impassioned protesters is starting to suggest that while many of them have genuine grievances, all may not be completely as advertised.

    The flash of a designer belt, a watch or even, in one case, a huge wad of cash reveals many activists are not quite so hard done by. Among the hardcore of well-intentioned protesters sleeping rough in Zuccotti Park are also the children of the wealthiest 'one per cent' - taking a break from classes at private schools to show their solidarity... and join the fun.As millionaire celebrities pledged allegiance to the protesters despite very healthy bank balances, MailOnline spoke to youngsters who have joined the movement, many of whom study at colleges which cost their parents up to $200,000.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast
    I think it may be more than just people complaining about low pay. The OWS movement involves a diversity of opinions relating to frustration over: corporate greed, government bailouts, government favouritism of corporations (i.e. crony capitalism), tuition fees, inequality, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq etc.
    I am aware of their complaints - when there is any sort of coherent message at all. While low pay is one of their complaints, I didn't intend that to mean that I believed it was the sum total of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheEast
    It's a challenge for competing opinions but it is not somehow fundamentally different than other movements which seek to express their frustration with issues in American society, granted they exclude any violent inclinations during their protests.
    I do believe it's fundamentally different; from the outset, this has been spearheaded by unions, Soros' shell organizations, numerous already active socialist and communist political groups, and political powerhouses in Obama's administration. The Tea Party movement started from multiple initial points using social media and local community organizing, sometimes in groups as small as 10 or 15 people. It was individuals who started the Tea Party, not union and political activity committees rounding up people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
    Ahahahhahah. HHAHHhahhahah. ahhahhaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!

    The Tea Party starts as a grass-roots movement against big government, it gets invaded by establishment Republicans, and then gets painted as a big-business fronted, racist, idiot-filled joke with no real direction.

    Then, the OWS thing gets started as a grass-roots movement against big corporations and the Fed, it gets invaded by establishment Democrats, and then gets painted as a big-business fronted, socialist, idiot-filled joke with no real direction.
    Problem is that this *wasn't* started as a grass-roots movement, and it never was. It's followed templates laid out in books like Rules for Radicals since the beginning and has had strong support from day one from people like the Tides Foundation, MoveOn, and Michael Moore, not to mention its outspoken support from multiple members of congress and Mayor Michael Bloomberg's recent statement that they were free to stay there as long as they liked, despite having done things like disrupting traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge. Furthermore, they've had positive media spin from the outset, whereas the Tea Party met with constant opposition, slander, and marginalization from the media since their inception.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  15. #15
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Well...can those who are charging that others are "not American"...please define this term? It's an incredibly ambiguous term and as it stands w/o any definition, it is completely meaningless.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  16. #16
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Pray for our troops
    Posts
    5,340
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Tea Party people also make it a point to leave a place cleaner than they found it after one of their demonstrations. New Yorkers undoubtedly wish the OWS people shared that with the Tea Party.




    Bags...my DROID autocorrects OWS to "pest".
    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born" -- Ronald Reagan

    How can a moral wrong be a Civil Right?

  17. #17
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,474
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Furthermore, they've had positive media spin from the outset, whereas the Tea Party met with constant opposition, slander, and marginalization from the media since their inception.
    Come off it. They have been made a joke of in the media quite often from my observation. This thread in fact highlights examples of that.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  18. #18
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Where every life is precious
    Posts
    2,157
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    But let's not get confused about what it means to be "un-American" just because there are large numbers of Americans how love America, and love being what America stands for, which includes being against anything or anyone who is un-American
    In your opinion, what does it mean to be un-American?

    ---------- Post added at 09:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Well...can those who are charging that others are "not American"...please define this term? It's an incredibly ambiguous term and as it stands w/o any definition, it is completely meaningless.
    Yes, I would also like to know what it means...
    "As long as I have a voice, I will speak for those who have none".

  19. #19
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Where ever you tell me, Drill Sergeant!
    Posts
    2,201
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Come off it. They have been made a joke of in the media quite often from my observation. This thread in fact highlights examples of that.
    ODN is not "the media." But, just like with the Tea Party, the media (specifically Fox) has been treating them with some derision... but not until after the movement started being labeled "liberal." Again, this is little different from how the NBCs, and CNN to some extent, treated the Tea Party.

    The differences are that the Tea Party was conservative from the outset (less taxes, smaller government, etc.), while Occupy Wall Street had no real political leanings in the beginning. Being against corporate influence and corruption is largely a libertarian ideal (not strictly liberal or conservative as both sides would like to claim), as well as criticizing the Fed. OWS has been subverted to a decidedly socialist/progressive bent in the last few days, whereas the Tea Party pretty much occupies the same conservative/libertarian spot it always did.
    The Signature Religion is the one true religion. I know this is true, because it says so right here in this signature.

  20. #20
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Southern California, USA
    Posts
    2,018
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: GOP hypocrisy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    In your opinion, what does it mean to be un-American?
    I can give you examples of being "un-American", but not an exhaustive list of them. And I can give you a generalization in terms of "American". I'm guessing you're looking for specific examples, so here are, in my opinion, a few that qualify...
    "Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period."
    A crackpot idea like this (this person evidently has never taken a good look at what is written on paper money!) would be, in my opinion, "un-American", as would any idea whose implementation would signal the end of the nation.
    "Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live."
    This too would be un-American. No culture can survive if it is exposed to unlimited immigration. The stream of immigration must be limited by the rate of assimilation. Therefore, this political concept is un-American in that it is an inherent threat to the continued existence of American culture.

    The principle that basically states "from each according to their means, to each according to their needs" is an "un-American" economic principle. Therefore, anyone advocating it would be un-American.

    The principle that "sovereignty" exists in the governed, rather than in the government is a purely American principle, and so anyone who denies it, or works to eradicate it would be "un-American" in my opinion.

    The denial of the principle that property is part of the person who owns it would be "un-American". This is a principle that has typified America since its birth as a nation among the nations of the world.

 

 
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. For those who defend your beloved GOP
    By Ibelsd in forum Politics
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: March 3rd, 2010, 10:42 PM
  2. Congrats GOP...
    By Prime Zombie in forum Politics
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: February 10th, 2008, 11:34 PM
  3. Speaker Hypocrisy?
    By Monk in forum Politics
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: January 19th, 2007, 06:35 AM
  4. Hypocrisy
    By Dionysus in forum Shootin' the Breeze / Off-Topic
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: August 25th, 2004, 06:34 AM
  5. Human Hypocrisy
    By Linz in forum Hypothetical Debates
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: May 2nd, 2004, 04:38 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •