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  1. #1
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    Dialectic on salvation

    I want here to try and clarify the divides in Christianity and question how essential they are to having access to salvation. Now obviously god is the ultimate judge but Christians can and do decide that people are likely not yet saved and I want to raise this issue between denominations, and ask the question whether or not Christians with differing views on salvation will attain it.

    Firstly I'd like to ask various Christians what they believe is necessary to attain salvation. I would identify the 3 key divides on this issue as those between Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant branches of Christianity.

    But firstly I want to ask you as Christians (or even amateur scholars of Christianity, that is after all the reason I want to have this discussion):
    1: How do you believe salvation is granted (e.g. are "works" necessary, are sacraments necessary, if so which ones)?
    2: Do you believe in light of this other Christians that do not subscribe to your view of salvation have been saved (thus if you believe salvation can only be granted by Jesus would you then say that Catholic nobles in the 16th century who believed they had to smuggle in foreign priests in order to conduct sacraments for them as this was essential to their view on the matter are saved or not, given their misunderstanding of salvation)?
    3: Just how distant can a view on salvation be and still attain it (for example could a gnostic Christian attain salvation under your model)?
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

  2. #2
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    Nothing is required of humans for salvation.

    Jesus suffered and died and fogave us for being dumb animals. Therefore we all go to heaven.

  3. #3
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    Re: Dialectic on salvation

    I personally object to the rather baptist notion of once saved, always saved. That is, all is required is for me to have accepted Jesus into my heart, as if that forgives all future transgressions.
    As a former Catholic, I was always partial to the "bells and smells" as my protestant friend teasingly calls it. I think new sins do require new repentance, and one must continually re-ask God for forgiveness. Of course I have no absolute proof this is required, it just makes more sense to me.
    Last edited by Squatch347; December 1st, 2011 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Removed inflamatory text.
    The Sparrow, Member of the God-Awful Atheist Syndicate

  4. #4
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    Re: Dialectic on salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Nothing is required of humans for salvation.

    Jesus suffered and died and fogave us for being dumb animals. Therefore we all go to heaven.
    Would this not be incongruous of the numerous references to hell in the NT (indeed our entire concept of hell is alien to Jewish thought and the OT), particularly those of final judgement such as Matthew 25:41 or the numerous discussions in revelations.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSparrow View Post
    I personally object to the rather baptist notion of once saved, always saved. That is, all is required is for me to have accepted Jesus into my heart, as if that forgives all future transgressions.
    As a former Catholic, I was always partial to the "bells and smells" as my protestant friend teasingly calls it. I think new sins do require new repentance, and one must continually re-ask God for forgiveness. Of course I have no absolute proof this is required, it just makes more sense to me.
    But the question then rises is it simply the act of asking forgiveness on a personal level (which if you don't do I assume most Baptists would still say that's because you're not saved, that is to say asking for penance is a mark not the cause of your salvation), or is it a formal repentance in confession, or a good work to try and offset it (the penance set in confession for instance) that is what is required for your salvation?
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

  5. #5
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    Re: Dialectic on salvation

    "or is it a formal repentance in confession, or a good work to try and offset it"

    Yes. Both of those. Formal repentance to actually 'admit' to God that you messed up and humbly beg his forgivenss, and a good work to try to "balance" off the bad thing you did.
    The Sparrow, Member of the God-Awful Atheist Syndicate

  6. #6
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    Re: Dialectic on salvation

    Repentance of sins, and faith in Christ. I do think that all of Christendom, and several groups called cults, is saving people. Even given all of the widely heard debate between Reformed Christians and Catholics on grace and works, the two groups want and encourage the same attitudes. I accept Gnostics (although I am more unsure of them), JW's, Latter Day Saints, UPC's, etc. as Christians on the most basic level, and that's enough for me.
    There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Dialectic on salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by eliotitus View Post
    I want here to try and clarify the divides in Christianity and question how essential they are to having access to salvation. Now obviously god is the ultimate judge but Christians can and do decide that people are likely not yet saved and I want to raise this issue between denominations, and ask the question whether or not Christians with differing views on salvation will attain it.

    Firstly I'd like to ask various Christians what they believe is necessary to attain salvation. I would identify the 3 key divides on this issue as those between Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant branches of Christianity.
    Well there are a heck of a lot more views than just these three, but okay, for argument's sake. Make sure you understand I'm an evangelical Christian, and I speak only for myself here.

    But firstly I want to ask you as Christians (or even amateur scholars of Christianity, that is after all the reason I want to have this discussion):
    1: How do you believe salvation is granted (e.g. are "works" necessary, are sacraments necessary, if so which ones)?
    Salvation is granted by the Second Coming or Advent of Christ (Parousia). If you mean on what basis is it granted, I'd have to say the grace and mercy of God through faith in His Son. What that boils down to in English is, to those who know the love of God, are enamored of it enough to make a sincere attempt to mimic it (or as the NT says, "abide in Christ"), and are trusting in His goodness and mercy to save them from their natural selfishness.

    2: Do you believe in light of this other Christians that do not subscribe to your view of salvation have been saved...?
    Yes. No one attains salvation by what they believe about salvation, but by what they believe about God strongly enough to act upon.

    3: Just how distant can a view on salvation be and still attain it?
    You have to have the right God, and enough trust to act upon that knowledge in a reasonable way. Anything within that range I believe is enough.

    Of course, there are caveats here. For example, it's not necessary a normally incoherent person form a coherent belief as to how best to act upon their belief in the God who is love, and full of mercy and grace. Where much is given, much is expected.

 

 

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