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  1. #1
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    9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    This video shows the full story of 9/11 in 5 minutes, showing that the government's story is 100% true - and anybody who questions anything about it is "a batshit, paranoid, tinfoil, dog-abusing baby-hater and will be reviled by everyone. If you love your country and/or freedom, happiness, rainbows, rock and roll, puppy dogs, apple pie and your grandma, you will never ever express doubts about any part of this story to anyone. Ever."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98
    He who has an ear, let them hear.

  2. #2
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gherkin View Post
    This video shows the full story of 9/11 in 5 minutes, showing that the government's story is 100% true - and anybody who questions anything about it is "a batshit, paranoid, tinfoil, dog-abusing baby-hater and will be reviled by everyone. If you love your country and/or freedom, happiness, rainbows, rock and roll, puppy dogs, apple pie and your grandma, you will never ever express doubts about any part of this story to anyone. Ever."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98
    Hello Gerkin.

    Your approach lazy.

    Please pick out your favorite claim out of that video, the one you really feel the most confident about and lay it out.
    I'll debate it with you.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
    - Wayne Gretzky

  3. #3
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Seems legit to me.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  4. #4
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    What seems legit, the OP or my challenge?

    The OP is hard to respond since it's not really specific.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
    - Wayne Gretzky

  5. #5
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    What seems legit, the OP or my challenge?

    The OP is hard to respond since it's not really specific.
    I was being punny, in every sense of the word.

    The video is a tong-n-cheek attack on the outrageousness of the overall theory/gov story, of what occurred on 911. The only thing it fails to mention is the idea of a plane not fitting into the hole left in the pentagon.

    So, when I say "seems legit" it is to mock both the official story, and the conspiracy theories. .. much like this.

    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  6. #6
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    whichever may be the case, I think it's safe to assume that this thread is now being monitored by Them. now where did I put the aluminium foil?!

  7. #7
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    The video is self-defeating, much like any argument based on documenting perceived anomalies.

    Do you have any idea how long a video would run, using the same concept, if the reality was flipped on it's head and an alternative Thruther narrative was touted as the "official" story? How many holes and details would not fit then? You think the video would last 5 hours, 10 hours? my guess is, at 50 hours you'd still be leaving stuff out.

    But the worse part is; what is narrated in this video are not anomalies, but rather distortions, lies and platitudes that mostly have been debunked more then 5 years ago. I can back that up very forcefully while having one hand tied behind my back.. hence my challenge.
    Last edited by Vandaler; November 30th, 2011 at 06:06 AM.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
    - Wayne Gretzky

  8. #8
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    The gigantic plot hole in most of the conspiracy theories is the assumption that people don't make mistakes and that everyone is really smart all the time.

    The truth of life is that everyone is a idiot at least part of the time and that mistakes pretty much happen constantly in any organization.

    They also distort, cherry pick and lie. As where the problems with the "official story" tends to be they omit, forget, and confuse.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  9. #9
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    I don't think that the American government was responsible for the attacks. A plan as large as the 9/11 attacks would require many participants. One of these participants would have leak the story. Lets face it, America is not that good at keeping secrets. If the American government had planned the 9/11 attacks, the plot would have been leaked and the people responsible would have found themselves in front of a firing squad for treason. All of that risk for some oil? I don't think so. Especially because they didn't even blame the attacks on Iraq. If the goal of their plan was to have an excuse for invading Iraq to get their oil, they probably should have blamed Iraq for the attacks.
    abc

  10. #10
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    van.. can you speak to the one "theory" that wasn't mentioned or alluded to in the film.
    Namely that the plane said to hit the pentagon couldn't fit in the hole that was left.

    I have no vested interest, so I'm not making the case for such a truth claim. It is just the most interesting one I've seen so far, and haven't heard the explanations, responses to it.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  11. #11
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Hi MT,

    Sometimes results and outcomes in physics and engineering are counter intuitive and if you asked me in advance what I expected to see at the Pentagon, I would not have answered a round hole. I'll get back to why it was like this.

    But I'll use the method I suggested, and entertain you with how it would look if the "official story" was that a missile hit the Pentagon (which has been the most popular alternative and one of the first conspiracies to surface in the 2002-3 timeframe)

    You would see a youtube video with: all the families that have lost someone dear in that flight, many of them had driven their loved one to their airport, their boarding passes, all the thousands of eye witness that saw the plane on it's final trajectory in that crowded belt of higways around the Pentagon at rush hour. I'd document all the pieces of aircraft left there but mostly... I'd document and chronicle all the successful effort that went in to positively identify the DNA of the remains of all victims and the 5 hijackers. that would be a good start and only scratching the surface.

    I submit this video as an example of counter intuitive results in damage physics, an old heavy car with chrome against a much lighter car with plastic bumper.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtxd27jlZ_g

    Counter-intuitive results often results in conspiracy theories and this video above is no exception. All kinds of theories has been floated about it.

    This video shows well the moment and the damage that are both counter intuitive and realist: www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8
    Last edited by Vandaler; December 1st, 2011 at 05:00 AM.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  12. #12
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    This video shows well the moment and the damage that are both counter intuitive and realist: www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8
    That is excellent. The only "video" recreation I've seen (before) was terrible. It only added to the idea that the plane couldn't fit.
    That one is much better in it's execution. I'm satisfied.

    All the other "conspiracy" points about the pentagon...don't really mater to me. Like the amount of fuel, the engine parts found not fitting the supposed model plane.
    But to me the hole has to be big enough... you support that it is.. thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    I submit this video as an example of counter intuitive results in damage physics, an old heavy car with chrome against a much lighter car with plastic bumper.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtxd27jlZ_g
    I'm not sure how that is an example of "counter intuitive"... simply because of crumple zones.
    Now had it been a low impact crash.. I would have been surprised if the heavy car had received more damage.
    all beside the point.. and I see the point you are trying to make, and I think you did a good job of it.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  13. #13
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    All the other "conspiracy" points about the pentagon...don't really mater to me.
    Fine, but I don't like hanging threads on this subject and since it's not to clear if Gherkin will be back, I'll at least respond to the rapid claims made in the video in relation to the Pentagon.

    First, and this is a subjective point, flying an airplane straight into a building is not exactly what defines a good pilot. Rather, complying with flight regulations, operating all the radios and handling just about anything that can happen during a flight and land safely and on schedule is what defines a good pilot. If an instructor had once said that a particular student was not good, it's by no means indicative of his opinion on the persons capacity to crash a plane on a large building on a perfectly clear day.

    But more importantly, and very factually, it's a farce to think that 9/11 was at least partly, to erase the memory of what Rumsfeld said on 9/10 about "missing" money. A farce so big, and so loudly false, that it's a good data point to show how the whole video is disingenuous.

    You can read the whole account on this excellent page: http://www.911myths.com/html/rumsfel..._3_trilli.html

    Essentially the money was never missing, but rather:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumsfled on 9/10
    ... According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions. We cannot share information from floor to floor in this building because it's stored on dozens of technological systems that are inaccessible or incompatible.
    What Rumsfeld was saying, is that there is a need for better, more centralized accounting, not that money has gone missing. This also flies in the face of the video's argument that claims quite naively, that all the information and the people that knew about the "missing money" was conveniently contained exactly where the plane hit. It's silly at best, I'm being polite.

    Also the timing: thinking that it was "announced' the day before 9/11 so that it gets burried and the "news" not get all the outrage it's supposed to deserve. What Thruthers won't tell you, is that this information was not new at all...

    For instance, here, a whole year and a half earlier:
    The Associated Press 03/03/00 5:44 PM Eastern

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- The military's money managers last year made almost $7 trillion in adjustments to their financial ledgers in an attempt to make them add up, the Pentagon's inspector general said in a report released Friday.

    The Pentagon could not show receipts for $2.3 trillion of those changes, and half a trillion dollars of it was just corrections of mistakes made in earlier adjustments.
    http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and...?msg_id=002hxm

    Lying propaganda. that's all this video is. I would just prefer it if it was the happy pickle that chooses which part he chooses to see taken apart.
    Last edited by Vandaler; December 1st, 2011 at 10:13 AM.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
    - Wayne Gretzky

  14. #14
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    The gigantic plot hole in most of the conspiracy theories is the assumption that people don't make mistakes and that everyone is really smart all the time.

    The truth of life is that everyone is a idiot at least part of the time and that mistakes pretty much happen constantly in any organization.
    But there clearly was a conspiracy of some kind.

    The debate is over who is behind the conspiracy (Al Quaeda vs. something else), not that a conspiracy to bring down the towers existed.
    Last edited by mican333; December 1st, 2011 at 01:07 PM.

  15. #15
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Then how can the official government story be true?

    Doesn't is describe an incredibly effective conspiracy by Al Quaeda to bring down the twin towers?
    I think Sig's point was that a conspiracy by 15ish people here and maybe 50-100 others internationally all of whom are hard core dedicated believers is more likely than a several hundred to several thousand person conspiracy of American citizens.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  16. #16
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I think Sig's point was that a conspiracy by 15ish people here and maybe 50-100 others internationally all of whom are hard core dedicated believers is more likely than a several hundred to several thousand person conspiracy of American citizens.
    He seemed to be forwarding a general truism about conspiracy theories in general. He said:

    "The truth of life is that everyone is a idiot at least part of the time and that mistakes pretty much happen constantly in any organization."

    For the record, I am taking no position on who did it in this debate. I'd have to study up quite a bit before I could back either position in a debate. But the "conspiracies cannot happen due to human incompetence" argument is clearly flawed. 9/11 shows that conspiracies can be pulled off competently by an organization.

  17. #17
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But there clearly was a conspiracy of some kind.
    But that's irrelevant. As soon that more then two people set out to do something without telling anyone else, it can be called a conspiracy of some sort.
    What's being discussed here, is rather scantly supported theories, chest pounded as if it was gospel.

    ie: conspiracies exist, and theories about them need to be very carefully evaluated and judged on their merits.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  18. #18
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    But that's irrelevant. As soon that more then two people set out to do something without telling anyone else, it can be called a conspiracy of some sort.
    What's being discussed here, is rather scantly supported theories, chest pounded as if it was gospel.
    That wasn't what I was responding to. I was responding to a flawed argument (and it's not the first time I've heard it) that conspiracy theories have an innate flaw because complex conspiracies cannot be pulled off due to human incompetence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    ie: conspiracies exist, and theories about them need to be very carefully evaluated and judged on their merits.
    I agree and that's kind of my point. You can't use simplistic truisms to shoot them down any more than you can use such truisms to support them.

  19. #19
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That wasn't what I was responding to. I was responding to a flawed argument (and it's not the first time I've heard it) that conspiracy theories have an innate flaw because complex conspiracies cannot be pulled off due to human incompetence.
    Ok I see, well, seen this way, I agree with Siegfried rather then I do with you.

    Yes, 9/11 was a huge conspiracy cooked up by Al Qaeda, but with great operational care and with very few people "in the know".

    By opposition, can you start imagining how many people need to be implicated to support the idea that it was a missile rather then a plane that hit the Pentagon ? (just an example since it was prominent for a while) That kind of conspiracy theory can never work for many reasons, and human incompetence, and buyers remorse (whistle blowers) certainly are front row center.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  20. #20
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    Re: 9/11 went just as the government says it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Ok I see, well, seen this way, I agree with Siegfried rather then I do with you.

    Yes, 9/11 was a huge conspiracy cooked up by Al Qaeda, but with great operational care and with very few people "in the know".
    It doesn't matter. According to Sig's argument, human idiocy would make such a thing impossible.

    Sig: "The gigantic plot hole in most of the conspiracy theories is the assumption that people don't make mistakes and that everyone is really smart all the time."

    How does this not apply to the conspiracy by Al Qaeda?

    Sig: "The truth of life is that everyone is a idiot at least part of the time and that mistakes pretty much happen constantly in any organization."

    Al Qaeda is an organization, right?

    It really seems you aren't taking his argument on its own terms but turning into something else.

 

 
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